F2B World Championships History

[Howard Rush]

I would like to know the number of F2B contestants in each world champs since 2004.  Thanks.

[BillLee]

I would like to know the number of F2B contestants in each world champs since 2004.  Thanks.

Not sure I can get all the years, but here are what I find without looking too hard. Might be off +/- a couple.

2004: 67
2006: 84
2008: 89
2010: 80
2012: 62
2014: 69
2016: 57
2018: 85
2022: 51

[Brett Buck]

Not sure I can get all the years, but here are what I find without looking too hard. Might be off +/- a couple.

2004: 67
2006: 84
2008: 89
2010: 80
2012: 62
2014: 69
2016: 57
2018: 85
2022: 51

  More to the point, how not to kill FAI judges, in a nutshell:

2004: 67 = 16 + 17 + 17 + 17, round length ~2:30
2006: 84 = 21 + 21 + 21 + 21, round length ~3:10
2008: 89 = 22 + 22 + 22 + 23, round length ~3:20
2010: 80 = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20, round length ~3:00
2012: 62 = 15 + 15 + 16 + 16, round length ~2:15
2014: 69 = 17 + 17 + 17 + 18, round length ~2:20
2016: 57 = 14 + 14 + 14 + 15, round length ~2:05
2018: 85 = 21 + 21 + 21 + 22, round length ~3:10
2022: 51 = 12 + 13 + 13 + 13, round length ~2:00


  Brett

[Brett Buck]

  More to the point, how not to kill FAI judges, in a nutshell:

2004: 67 = 16 + 17 + 17 + 17, round length ~2:30
2006: 84 = 21 + 21 + 21 + 21, round length ~3:10
2008: 89 = 22 + 22 + 22 + 23, round length ~3:20
2010: 80 = 20 + 20 + 20 + 20, round length ~3:00
2012: 62 = 15 + 15 + 16 + 16, round length ~2:15
2014: 69 = 17 + 17 + 17 + 18, round length ~2:20
2016: 57 = 14 + 14 + 14 + 15, round length ~2:05
2018: 85 = 21 + 21 + 21 + 22, round length ~3:10
2022: 51 = 12 + 13 + 13 + 13, round length ~2:00


  Brett

  And schedule, using 2008 as example:

 Judge groups stay on their physical circle for qualifying, Pilot groups/Circles 1, 2, 3, 4 switch from Wednesday to Thursday

 Circle assignments - team order drawn at random. Pilots assigned to circles by team slot and "striped". First team has Pilot 1 on Circle 1, 2, on 2, 3 on 3. Second team has Pilot 1 on Circle 4, 2 on 1, 3 on 2, etc, until all team members assigned, Then same for juniors, then defending champion(s). Assignments are effectively random but ensure that team pilots do not compete against each other during qualifying with minor exceptions and is agnostic about perceived skill level, also preventing "team tactics" for qualifying.

  Standard principles apply, each circle is its own contest independent of the others for purposes of qualifying. Flight order for each round by random draw.

Wednesday Qualifying (Circles 1,2,3,4)

Round 1 start 8:00 AM, over 11:20 AM
Lunch Break 11:30-12:30
Round 2 12:30-4:00

Thursday Qualifying (Circles 4,3,2,1)

Round 1 8:00-11:30
Lunch Break 11:30-12:30
Round 2 12:30-4:00

Qualifying score = highest Wednesday score + highest Thursday score
top 5 scores from each circle advance to Top 20

21-89 position determined from individual score normalized by highest score on circle Team points contribution as currently done

Friday Top 20
sequential rounds (Walker-style) 8:00-11:00, two physical circles, each pilot flies for each of 2 judge groups

Top 5 combined scores advance to Finals
Team Positions 6-20 determined by ranking on Top 20 day (no normalizing required)
 
Saturday Finals
3 flights for single judge group, best two scores added, Gold/Silver/Bronze awarded.
Team positions 1-5 determined by ranking on Top 5 day.

  Brett

[BillLee]

As you well know, Brett, this format was debated by the F2B Working Group and was found unacceptable.  As you well know, saying it again here again is still not going to make it acceptable.

The reality of a F2B WCHs event in the U.S. is that it will be quite a bit smaller than the 'typical' (i.e., pre-pandemic) event in Europe. The entry will likely be quite similar to Perth in 2016. A 2-circle/3-group format will work and keep the judges' workload within the FAI limits.

Bottom line: we run it by the FAI rules in order to get FAI approval.

Regards,

Bill Lee

[Howard Rush]

Not sure I can get all the years, but here are what I find without looking too hard. Might be off +/- a couple.

2004: 67
2006: 84
2008: 89
2010: 80
2012: 62
2014: 69
2016: 57
2018: 85
2022: 51

Goody.  Thank you.

[Brett Buck]

As you well know, Brett, this format was debated by the F2B Working Group and was found unacceptable.  As you well know, saying it again here again is still not going to make it acceptable.

The reality of a F2B WCHs event in the U.S. is that it will be quite a bit smaller than the 'typical' (i.e., pre-pandemic) event in Europe. The entry will likely be quite similar to Perth in 2016. A 2-circle/3-group format will work and keep the judges' workload within the FAI limits.

Bottom line: we run it by the FAI rules in order to get FAI approval.

Regards,

Bill Lee

  We will see.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

I looked at the F2B rules (https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_23_rev.pdf) and did some ciphering.  Each judge sees each contestant twice during the qualification rounds, as in our Nats format, but on different days.  Rules allow two-, three-, or four-day qualifications. The daily judge burden for a four-day F2B qualification is the same as for our two-day Nats qualification.  As Bill said, a three-day qualification would probably suffice for a US world champs.  That would accommodate 75 contestants without violating the FAI's 50 flights per day maximum.  I recommend the four-day format, though.  Shorter days make for a better contest.   

A peculiar outcome of the F2B rules is that the finals can't be held on one day unless at least two Juniors qualify among the 15 finalists.  I would also include an extra day between qualifications and finals.  Judges could use a rest day after seeing three or four days of stunt.  The extra day would also serve as a contingency day for weather.  The F2B qualifications format has no throwaway rounds like our Nats format does. 

My conclusion is that the F2B process will work just fine if enough days are allocated for it. 

[Dave Simons]

Howard,
Don't follow your observation that F2B qualifying has no throw away rounds/flights.
For a 2 circle format, as all recent w/champs have been, the highest score from each circle are added together  to give a qualifying score (for fly off entry or a final ranking for places 16 on) - amounting to 2 throw away rounds/flights, 1 per circle.

[Howard Rush]

Dave,

I was thinking of cases where weather canceled a round or a day's flying.  I wasn't very clear, because I hadn't thought much about the consequences.  The AMA Nats qualification-flights format splits contestants into four groups, actually four separate contests.  Each contestant flies two flights before one set of judges one day, then two flights before a different set of judges the second day.  If a round is canceled on the first day, for example, everybody in that group has a single score from one set of judges and two scores from the other set of judges.  All are on equal footing.  This happens pretty frequently, and it's not a big problem.   Looking at the F2B process, page 18 of https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_23_rev.pdf ,  suppose the first day's morning round is canceled.  Some contestants' scores would be the better of two flights for one circle, and some would be the score from a single flight on that circle.  All contestants are lumped together in one group, so that would be rather unfair.  I don't know what is done in practice, but I'd think the contest management would take measures to get the same number of flights in for everybody on each circle.  The four-day format could enable extra flights to be flown on a nicer day without exhausting the judges, and a day's pad in the schedule would be even better. 

I point out to stunt fliers that in combat, both fliers get the same weather at the same time.  That's why stunt is all luck. 

[Brett Buck]

I looked at the F2B rules (https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_23_rev.pdf) and did some ciphering.  Each judge sees each contestant twice during the qualification rounds, as in our Nats format, but on different days.  Rules allow two-, three-, or four-day qualifications. The daily judge burden for a four-day F2B qualification is the same as for our two-day Nats qualification.  As Bill said, a three-day qualification would probably suffice for a US world champs.  That would accommodate 75 contestants without violating the FAI's 50 flights per day maximum.  I recommend the four-day format, though.  Shorter days make for a better contest.   

A peculiar outcome of the F2B rules is that the finals can't be held on one day unless at least two Juniors qualify among the 15 finalists.  I would also include an extra day between qualifications and finals.  Judges could use a rest day after seeing three or four days of stunt.  The extra day would also serve as a contingency day for weather.  The F2B qualifications format has no throwaway rounds like our Nats format does. 

My conclusion is that the F2B process will work just fine if enough days are allocated for it.

    This was pointed out during the discussion leading up to 2004 (the same discussion that led up to the 2-circle format). The current rules would allow the same process, just stretched out over more days. In my example case with 80, you start on Monday and do Pilot group 1 and 2 on Monday, Group 3 and 4 on Tuesday, 1 and 2 again on Wednesday, 3 and 4 again on Thursday, then end up with more-or-less the same situation for Friday. This allows a proper contest procedure, despite the limitation of only two physical circles.

   If you had only 60, the obvious solution is to do it in 3 groups and take 15 instead of 20. In fact, it looks very much like the Yampolsky algorithm for a single class at the NATs, and you start on Tuesday.

   The critical matter is *separating the pilot groups into N independent contests for qualifying*, so the Pilot Group 1 scores are not directly compared to Group 2, or 3, or N, avoiding the "high judge/low judge" issue. And not incidentally requiring only about 3 hours for a round, meaning the judges only need to be consistent for 3 hours instead of 6-8 (or 36 like 2004). It does drag the contest out unnecessarily when you have, say, 4 very nice paved physical circles, but its a week of a part-time job.

    Of course, you might illustrate the foolishness of using only 2 physical circles while 2 sit idle, but people who demand only 2 physical circles deserve to look foolish

   Also as previously pointed out, 3 Pilot Groups  works out nicely for circle assignments and with proper techniques, avoids team tactics in the same way without requiring a random draw, one team member per Pilot Group.

   Similarly, same thing with 40 entrants, you drop to 2 Groups, then you are back to a 2-day contest.

  Sounds like a solved problem, you adjust for the attendance much like the NATs, you get the same throwaways in qualifying, you don't try to compare a morning flight in the wind on the low circle to a afternoon flight in perfect conditions on the high circle, which has always been the flaw. The difference is dragging it out over more days.

     Brett

   

[BillLee]

I looked at the F2B rules (https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_23_rev.pdf) and did some ciphering.  Each judge sees each contestant twice during the qualification rounds, as in our Nats format, but on different days.  Rules allow two-, three-, or four-day qualifications. The daily judge burden for a four-day F2B qualification is the same as for our two-day Nats qualification.  As Bill said, a three-day qualification would probably suffice for a US world champs.  That would accommodate 75 contestants without violating the FAI's 50 flights per day maximum.  I recommend the four-day format, though.  Shorter days make for a better contest.   

A peculiar outcome of the F2B rules is that the finals can't be held on one day unless at least two Juniors qualify among the 15 finalists.  I would also include an extra day between qualifications and finals.  Judges could use a rest day after seeing three or four days of stunt.  The extra day would also serve as a contingency day for weather.  The F2B qualifications format has no throwaway rounds like our Nats format does. 

My conclusion is that the F2B process will work just fine if enough days are allocated for it.

The obvious answer is to stretch the schedule. But, as always, the devil is in the details.
1. F2B is only one of four events that are part if an F2 World Championships.
1a. It is not unusual for there to be more competitors involved in a couple of the other events than in F2B

2. I am not sure, but I do not think that an F2 World Championships has ever been scheduled to allow for the extra days you suggest.
2a. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but any schedule must be for the COMPLETE F2 event, not just F2B, and must accommodate the other three disciplines as well.
2b. The other events run reasonably well in the current schedule and would likely not want nor need extra days in it.

3. Adding days to the schedule makes an already expensive event even more so, Extra days in hotels, extra days for food, extra days away from work back home, etc.
3a. Costs to run the contest go up linearly as the schedule length increases.
3b. The ability to host a WCHs is strongly couched in the ability of the host to cover the contest expenses.
3c. We could sure use some sponsors for 2024! Any suggestions/offers?

The schedule that has been used at recent World Champs and which we are intending to use in 2024 allows for three days for the qualifying rounds followed by two days to fly the  "fly-offs", that being the top 15 plus ties, plus three juniors, plus three females. That can be handled well within the FAI limits for judging.

Bill

[BillLee]

All event counts:

         F2A    F2B    F2C    F2D
2004:  32      67     64(32)  57
2006:  32      84     90(45)  58
2008:  47      89     84(42)  92
2010:  52      80     90(45)  77
2012:  45      62     98(49)  76
2014:  45      69     90(45)  87
2016:  33      57     68(34)  53
2018:  48      85    100(50)  84
2022:  30      51     46(23)  52

[Paul Smith]

Of course I am not in any way involved in the 2024 WC of CL.  I am happy to read that we of AMA will be hosting the event at our fine venue in Muncie, Indiana, hometown USA.

High entry is NOT a problem.  High entry level is a GOOD thing for the survival of F2.   Of course, high entry is the benefit of the splitting-up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and the USSR, thereby creating 22 new teams with up to five flyers per event.  More is good.

What has been described is the classic triangle of management:  Time, Money, and Quality.

If time is set in stone and more money is unavailable, the quality goal is forced to compromise. 

[Brett Buck]

Following on from Howard's earlier post, a FAI-rules-compliant schedule for 60 entrants, 2 circles, 3 qualifying days, and 5 days total. Reducing the finals from 20 to 15 makes sense in this case, it does not make sense in the 80-entrant case (too small a qualifying fraction)

3 Pilot Groups, 2 circles/judge groups, 2 rounds a day, 8 am-11am, 12 PM-3 PM


Circle            1                 2
Tues       Group 1      Group 2   
Wed       Group 3     Group 1
Thu        Group 2     Group 3

Take best of two scores for each group for Circle 1, best of two scores for each group on circle 2, add. Top 5 qualifiers for each group go to Top 15 finals
Ranking 16-60 taken by normalizing scores by highest score in your qualifying group

Friday     2 circles/judge groups

Fly all 15 sequentially on each circle (Paul  Walker ordering method), 8 am-~11:30 AM
Ranking 6-15 by finishing order
top 5 advance to fly-off

Top 5 combined scores Flyoff Saturday, 3 flights, 8AM-11:30 AM
Sum of best two determines ranking 1-5

So, going from 80 to 60 reduces the time required to 5 days instead of 6.

An alternate for 80 would work similarly, but the extra 7 pilots per group begins exceeding the 4 hour round limit. That's why you need an extra day. And the qualifying fraction is lower than ideal (just like the 2004 NATs), but it's a world championship, it's supposed to be hard.


    Brett

   

[Howard Rush]

The obvious answer is to stretch the schedule. But, as always, the devil is in the details.
1. F2B is only one of four events that are part if an F2 World Championships.
1a. It is not unusual for there to be more competitors involved in a couple of the other events than in F2B

2. I am not sure, but I do not think that an F2 World Championships has ever been scheduled to allow for the extra days you suggest.
2a. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but any schedule must be for the COMPLETE F2 event, not just F2B, and must accommodate the other three disciplines as well.
2b. The other events run reasonably well in the current schedule and would likely not want nor need extra days in it.

3. Adding days to the schedule makes an already expensive event even more so, Extra days in hotels, extra days for food, extra days away from work back home, etc.
3a. Costs to run the contest go up linearly as the schedule length increases.
3b. The ability to host a WCHs is strongly couched in the ability of the host to cover the contest expenses.
3c. We could sure use some sponsors for 2024! Any suggestions/offers?

Yep.  The devil is in the details, but few look at the details.  The FAI created a procedure for a stunt WC that I think is just fine, but takes a week to do well.  Our proposals would have shortened the time it takes to run, but the FAI prefers the existing procedure.  The FAI and AMA need to face the reality they've created, and not resort to wishful arithmetic.  However, I think we can come up with ways to accommodate some of the extra time.  I facetiously suggested that the first round of the WC be run concurrently with the Nats finals (we have enough circles), but I don't see why F2B processing can't begin the evening the Nats finishes.  F2B judges could watch Nats flights for training.  Do participants in the other events want to pay for another day's hotel stay so some of the F2B guys can attend the opening ceremony?

The schedule that has been used at recent World Champs and which we are intending to use in 2024 allows for three days for the qualifying rounds followed by two days to fly the  "fly-offs", that being the top 15 plus ties, plus three juniors, plus three females. That can be handled well within the FAI limits for judging.

Will we just hope that fewer than 75 people enter stunt (don't forget the added ladies), or will we limit entries like they do for World Cup contests?  If so, I hope it'd not done alphabetically by country.  Then there's weather.

I think that the stunt community should concentrate our lobbying into getting enough time for the contest, rather than trying to force change to the F2B process. 

[M Spencer]

Pity its not all laid on in a dormatry , FREE . as a INTERNATIONAL SPORTING EVENT like what it once was . in the early 60s ! ?

Its NOT supposed to be a Commercial enterprise .

Been considering posting a thread on winning engines , plane designs . Whats Tops . Like F! Driver & Manufacturer .

Still think video tracked or judged by the entrants Each Evening'd be a more ' sporting ' endevour , alloowing comment , anaylisis and debate .
As in one can review it with authenticity .

In this tecno wotsit age , RECORDING ALL FLIGHTS , so any ' concerns ' may be addresed , factually rather than as opinions based on microsecond obsevations 
would lead credability .
AND be editable for a highlights pulicic P. R.  film .

Who did It . How & Why . where'd He ( they ) miss & score . WHERE do they all dip out . WHAT seperates the Men from the Boys . 

COULD be a Hi tension entrahling doco type promo for Hobby Stores , Govt. Sporting Bodies - Grants commitees , and those television people . TO PROMOTE C / L Aerobatics To The Public . MATE .

beforetheresnothingleftofit .

While we're at it , World Cup ?? . HOW ABOUT a FREESTYLE  5 min. airtime , wring the neck ballet , aircraft dance schedule event . To SEE whats Hot .  Be Real good for promo .

One could STILL find ERRORS if FILMED . as in missplaced , misstimed , ragged , uncoordinated and suchlike . Also spot rythm , timing , flow , grace ? authority and other things .

WHY NOT ??

 

[M Spencer]

If HE can do it , Why Cant We .



Spectacular! Swiss Aerobatic Freestyle Championship 2020

[Derek Barry]

Let me make sure I have all this strait.

A couple years ago, David and Paul discussed working with AMA to put in a bid for the 2024 WC. If they were going to volunteer themselves to run the event, they had a few stipulations.  The main one being the use of a 4 circle format. 

The FAI at first ignored Dave and Paul. (I believe Brett was in these discussions as well)

Then the FAI finally came back with a NO. If we were to have the WC here, we had to use their 2 circle format.

Dave and Paul said, no thank you, find somewhere else or someone else to run it.

I hear that following that, Italy put in a bid. But was unable to find 2 flying circles in that entire country. 

Now there's trouble.  The FAI is on the clock to find a venue and they need one fast!

So, someoneput together a 4 man secret committee, and told the 4 members it was imperative that they not speak to anyone outside the group. This person and/or committee then went behind everyone's back, and talked the AMA into submitting a bid for 2024 WC.

That process is now well under way, and it is very likely that the WC will be here in August of 2024.

So, what do we as a country get for bailing the FAI out of trouble? We get the privilege of running their event, using their stupid 2 circle format and zero appreciation from the FAI. All of the people who have experience with FAI have declined to ED the event, so now all that weight will be put on one man's shoulders. One man who is already carrying more weight than anyone else in our event. I mean hell, he only runs 2 other week long events every year, at his own time and expense.  Why not drop another 10 days of hard and unappreciated work on him? Seems fair right?

Did I miss anything?

Derek

[Brett Buck]

Did I miss anything?

    What is the pavement like down at the T/R circle?

     Brett

[Doug Moon]

I have flown on both the speed and the racing. Both worked well. Stay in the middle, no walking around if the nets are up.

[Derek Barry]

    What is the pavement like down at the T/R circle?

     Brett

I haven't flown there in years, but I am aware of a few spinner divots from crashed stunt models. 

I can't remember it being used for team race in years. Maybe the last time was 2004

Derek

[Dave_Trible]

Not sure if you are talking about the speed circles or the McCool site where they fly scale etc.  I think it is rough and don't know about the speed circles.  When this was being discussed 2-3 years ago Joyce Hagar told me if there was to be worlds there she was sure the Executive Counsel would get excited about it and likely spring some money to fix the other sites up........I'm still wondering about the concrete pads on the grass circles.....

Dave

[Derek Barry]

Not sure if you are talking about the speed circles or the McCool site where they fly scale etc.  I think it is rough and don't know about the speed circles.  When this was being discussed 2-3 years ago Joyce Hagar told me if there was to be worlds there she was sure the Executive Counsel would get excited about it and likely spring some money to fix the other sites up........I'm still wondering about the concrete pads on the grass circles.....

Dave

I believe I saw a recent picture with concrete pads in the grass...

Derek

[Crist Rigotti]

IIRC either last year or the year before, I saw some team racing done at the McCool site during the Nats.

[Dave_Trible]

I believe I saw a recent picture with concrete pads in the grass...

Derek

Well OK then!!!

Dave

[M Spencer]

 Regulations are for the guidance of wse men , and the blind obediance of feuls .

" We get the privilege of running their event, using their stupid 2 circle format and zero appreciation from the FAI. "

Got some rope . The The FAI Turkeys up , and store in a back room . Fry untill they sign a confession , disclaimer .

THIS is a DEMOCRACY , even in France . Though they were a bit untidy with it at one stage .

[Paul Smith]

The AMA site in Muncie works well enough for us for Speed, Stunt, Racing, Combat, Carrier and Scale.

If it doesn't measure up to The World Standard, have it elsewhere.

We had the WC at Westover AFB in 1984, and later on at Muncie.  The Combat (F2d) flyers were amazed at having UNLIMITED practice flying without a schedule. 

I attended WC's in England, Holland, and Hungary as a combat mechanic.  It was always ONE circle per event with a strict testing schedule.  Muncie is paradise compared to that.

[Scott Richlen]

So, what do we as a country get for bailing the FAI out of trouble? 

Well, look at the bright side - considering our laxity in enforcing our border regs we could have 40 to 50 new "migrants" with top-level PA flying skills!  And if their Juniors stay we could dominate F2B for the next 50 years!   

[Paul Smith]

Well, look at the bright side - considering our laxity in enforcing our border regs we could have 40 to 50 new "migrants" with top-level PA flying skills!  And if their Juniors stay we could dominate F2B for the next 50 years!   

Well, yeah, that and deprive other nations of future winners.  No downside at all.

[Scott Richlen]

Well, yeah, that and deprive other nations of future winners.  No downside at all.

Dang!  I hadn't thought of that!  A two-fer!!