GSCB Vintage Combat festival 9-22-19

[Tom Luciano]

Get the old girls ready! It's time for the most exhilarating day of the year!

This year I will donate 6-8 la 25 powered Voodoos for anyone who wants to try combat. Two planes will be sitting on the 3rd circle fueled waiting for you to take a crack at it. These are completely disposable, so get out and try combat for the first time or knock 50 years of rust off. 

Bring out those Vintage Combat planes and show, sport fly, compete in our speed runs, or our newly introduced speed stunt with combat planes. It's a day of fun and comradery enjoying the designs of the past. The LS stories alone are priceless!

Super Satan with stunt pattern at 118mph.


Double Diamond on a 122mph speed run.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cool. I will do my best to have my Nemesis done for then. Howard's welcome to fly it if he happens to stop by.

[Tom Luciano]

Mike,
 Thats great! I met Howard at the nats and busted him I would build him a plane if he wanted to come. He said he would bring his own G21 to mount on it. You got me off the hook! Lol

Tom

[Tom Luciano]

Here is a reprint of the Speed Stunt rules;

The following is our guidelines/rules. We want to keep it light and encourage participation.  Fly at whatever speed your comfortable with;

The objective is to perform the stunt pattern maneuvers in minimum time, from first entry to completion of the 4 leaf clover. In order to permit nostalgia combat airplanes to fly without oversize fuel tanks, only one full lap between maneuvers is required. The maneuvers are not scored per se; rather the pattern is reviewed by the timer to see that all maneuvers are completed in order.


Model Eligibility Any model designed, sketched, published, constructed or offered for sale in kit form prior to 1980 which could have been used in combat is eligible, the older the better. The use of original survivor aircraft is specifically encouraged. There is no prohibition of foam wings or plastic covering, but the competitors are at liberty to abuse the fakers who ignore the tradition of silk and dope .


-Fight Takeoffs and landings are not judged, hand launch is expressly permitted.
-Hand signal required on prior lap of the reverse wingover.
-Timing starts at entry into the reverse wing over and stops at the last crossing of the intersection of the 4 leaf clover.
- Four inverted laps are required.
- One and a half laps are required after the exit of the hourglass prior to entry into the overhead eight.
- Any or all of the following are permitted: level flight height as high as practical, short lines, or smaller maneuvers; all to minimize flight distance and time.
-An entry not completing all maneuvers shall receive no score, but will be accorded as many attempts as time permits.

Speed Runs
-Any engine that is non-schnuerle ported basically the 36x and g21-35 engines are the cutoff and any vintage combat design prior to 1980.
- No nitro content limitations
-  60' lines center to center meeting current line diameter requirements
- 10' high maximum level flight

Award given out for Speed stunt, speed runs, and the famed LS blown up Fox Award!

Most important rule is to have a "BLAST!"

Hope to see ya there!

Tom

[Frank Imbriaco]

Bob :
That's just plain frightening to look at.

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello
Would like to have a go organizing a similar contest here based on Tom's rules.
From my own experiences trying speed stunt is is a lot of fun and speeds up your reactions somewhat!
Mufflers rules here in NZ as applied to the old 35/36 engines can be tricky as not all like the extra heat

Bob's model look fast and mean. Nice but where does the 50% nitro go?

Regards Gerald

[C.T. Schaefer]

Sweet Sweep =  Sweet Jesus!!   Looks like an awesome rig.   Head to head with the old BB  should be tons o fun!  TS

[Joseph Daly]

Will Demauro and I have sercet weapons coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come out and see on the 22nd!

[William DeMauro]

Have you guys considered the strength of the prop on a high power electric set up.


Motorman

Yes!!!

[Tom Luciano]

Punch in your GPS for the garden state circle burner field address is 140 Two bridges road Lincoln Park New Jersey

[Charles Carter]

Nice looking plane.  It looks fast just on the bench.

Charles

[Tom Luciano]

Hey Charles,
 Yea, Hunt got his eyes on taking down the old Super Satan!
We Middlesex guys got out yesterday to shake some rust off.  After one flight each we need a lot more shak'n. The jr. Satan, Double Diamond, and Super Satan were screaming!

Best,
Tom

[Tom Luciano]

There is 1 thing i can guarantee. when you fly the pattern at 100+ mph, it is impossible to not be smiling. You cant help but laugh out loud when your flying the pattern. With electric we'll hear you! Quick anecdote,  if you look at the super Satan video, most tricks are recognizable  but when doing the triangles i didn't like the second leg as it was too steep so, i tried to flatten it. The plane was instantly behind me. I was lucky to save it. This being only the second flight on it. It now has 8 flights lol!

Tom

[Will Hinton]

I am totally enjoying this thread!  Around 2001 or 2002 we were urged to have speed limit at the FCM and Allen suggested he and I should enter to support the kind guys who were running it.  I got a fast ship around, put my LA25 on it and did so.  I flew combat exclusively in the 60's, figured this would be a really super way to get back at it. HA!  In the middle of the first match my opponent suggested we just fly level for a few laps as he was getting dizzy.  I COULD HAVE HUGGED HIM!
Wow, does 75 MPH seem blazing now.  Please keep these posts coming and I will cheer for all of you to have a great time.  And I will enjoy the posts, guaranteed.

[Al Ferraro]

 We are in no way predicting a take down of the Super Satan, or any of the glow powered models in terms of speed. At least not yet...

 Later - Bob Hunt
[/quote]
            I guess Ill hold off putting a tune up on my Fox MK VII. 
Al

[Frank Imbriaco]

Looks totally awesome.

[Andre Ming]

Bob:

Your Sweet Sweep looks "evil"... pure and simple! Wicked "EVIL!!!" 

Hope you all will have a ton of fun this coming weekend.

Andre

[GERALD WIMMER]

Very Nice Bob!
An inspiring model that should have a very high speed potential once dialed in.
A far cry from my last electric combat model a 5th Revolution (Aeromodellor plan) converted from PAW19 to a 550 size can Kyosho RC truck motor and 8 cell ni-cad (with small AE cells) pack in the 1980's
Looking forward to hearing how the  Sweet Sweep goes

Regards Gerald

[jfv]

Really neat Bob!  Looking forward to Sunday.  Tried the Speed Stunt pattern with my Double Diamond.  Too fast at about 115 mph for the pattern.  Couldn't keep up, particularly for the square 8's.  Seems like I'm only good to about 100 mph.  I'll have to fly high with one of my more tame planes to try and cut the time and beat Tom, the record holder.  I think I did about 1:32 last year.  Tom was in the mid 1:20's.  If you haven't tried it, it's a real hoot.  Hard to keep from laughing while your trying to keep up and remember where you are in the maneuvers. especially with only one lap between maneuvers.

[William DeMauro]

Looks great Bob I’m looking forward to a flight on that tomorrow.i think we will get it to go plenty fast.

[Al Ferraro]

Hi Al:

Not predicting any speeds until we test fly,

This has been a fun project!

Later - Bob Hunt
            Hi Bob, I'm looking forward to see your plane it looks awesome!!!
  Please be careful using the plastic electric props. Here is APC rpm limits from their website.

Thin Electric (E) Propellers
  Maximum RPM=150,000/prop diameter (inches)
So you can only spin a 9 inch APC prop 16,666 rpm.
Al
   


 

[William DeMauro]

18750 rpm is max, should we opt for the plastic 8x8 or 8x6 . We will most likely run carbon fiber props anyway. I also have my doubts that we will hit those rpm especially with an 8x8 . RPM most likely won’t be a concern. Cooling, battery usage and motor limitations are our biggest obstacles. We will go fast regardless. We will have fun for sure. We will be at least competitive.

[Frank Imbriaco]

I told Bob that his ship is gonna screw him into the ground lol. 
Ditto some of the glow ships .

[djmachinist10]

Bob, wow!! The sweet Sweep Electric looks fantastic! The nose area is a masterpiece of engineering. I am so glad you finished the plane. Looking forward to a flight report.

Dale Jones
Katy, Texas

[Fredvon4]

Is it optical illusion in the photos? to my eye the forward of LE ---skeggs/ air dams(?) seem to NOT be parallel to the fuselage but skewed out...

[Tom Luciano]

Not sure Fred. As I look at it, I find myself seeing a lot of B-52!

Tom

[Andre Ming]

Looks like this is shaping up to be another EPIC GSCB Vintage Combat Festival!

IF you are within striking distance of this event you better BE THERE!!!

Y'all are gonna' have SO much fun!

Andre

[Tom Luciano]

In a collaboration with Phil Cartier,  we developed this VooDoo for this years event. Here is the prototype.  It's half covered now, should be completed tonight. Unfortunately,  work issues got in the way to put more together. This will be there for everyone to fly and enjoy. We can dork it to see how it holds up!
  I want to thank Phil for the help and rushing the cores to me. This could be a fun event nostalgia speed limit or just Voodoo speed limit. Before covering its 15.5oz. This is the original sized Voodoo 36+". I'm hoping it does well. I'll have a speed limit plane there as well to have some matches between the two.

Tom

Tom

[Al Ferraro]

Super Satan with stunt pattern at 118mph.

 Tom, your Stunt Speed flight was awesome!!! Watching the Super Satan zoom through the clover at 118mph was really cool and shows off its amazing turning ability.
  Ill see you Sunday
Al

[Tom Luciano]

Tom: Clean your bench off! 

Bob

You noticed. See the red, white, and blue paint from getting  the crossfire ready for the Nats!

TL

[Tom Luciano]

Look out Im bringing the heat this year!!!! Lol

Remember there are 3 coveted trophies we are shooting for.
1. The Scarinzi speed award
2. The Speed Stunt award
3.The Infamous blown fox award

Defending champs
Speed -Al Ferraro
Stunt - Tom Luciano
Blown Fox- Tom Luciano   

We may need to add a fried motor award! Does anyone know where I can get one.........oh wait, I know!!!

[Tom Luciano]

Thank you, Al!
  Not sure I can pull that off again. Maybe I should put a patch over my eye!!

Tom

[Jim Damerell]

You're not claiming to have actually watched that flight. are you! You weren't even facing the plane most of the time!  LL~Everyone ends up laughing!!

[Brett Buck]

3.The Infamous blown fox award


We may need to add a fried motor award! Does anyone know where I can get one.........oh wait, I know!!!

     I think it's horrible you guys are mocking and destroying Fox motors, they're really good, I never had any problem with them.

      Brett

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

That broken Fox case is scary.  Did it really break like that while running?

[Tom Luciano]

     I think it's horrible you guys are mocking and destroying Fox motors, they're really good, I never had any problem with them.

      Brett

HMM, coming from a professional hurler.....I believe his tongue is firmly pressed in cheek. tsk,tsk…

That broken Fox case is scary.  Did it really break like that while running?

Yes it did blow that way! As larry presented the award he said "I never seen one blow like that" take a look at the case on the award! It blew identical. We believe this to be the reason why the webbed version came a few years later. Maybe Andre knows the history on why Duke put the web on the exhaust port.

[phil c]

Tom: Clean your bench off! 

Bob

That's the way most combat flyers build.   the newest plane is in front, the older ones get pushed back off the end of the bench in a pile!  Or they get put into two piles, one for the wrecks that might still be useful, and the repaired, flyable ones get hung from the ceiling.

[Andre Ming]

Maybe Andre knows the history on why Duke put the web on the exhaust port.

If you'll look at the original case configuration from the first "front loader" 35 Combat Special, the 35X, and 36X, up to the advent of the exhaust web, they were all the same: Almost NO case support for right at half of circumference of the case. That's nearly HALF the top of the case with no support. As nitro kept going upward, and guys got better and better at extracting power from the 36X, some failed as depicted.

Thus, around 1970, the web was placed in the exhaust port and that ended that.

While I'm at it: Took Duke a while to figure out that the exhaust was under far more pressure than the incoming bypass AND the exhaust was looking for the first hole to escape from and would exhaust quickly. When this dawned on him, the priorities sort of flipped: Instead of the exhaust being the larger of the ports, the bypass(es) was emphasized, and the bypass(es) got more opening area and the exhaust area reduced. This is more pronounced on later designs that used flow porting bypass systems. (i.e. Non piston-baffled porting.)

The above is strictly as I recall it and that recall feature is fading by the year. 

Andre

[Mike Ferguson]

The Sweet Sweep looks great, Bob. It's pointy and electric. Kind of like my favorite guitars as of late.

I regret I won't see it's debut this Sunday. Good luck with it (not that you'll really need it!). My own loud, gas-guzzling Nemesis II will have to wait until 2020, it seems.

[Tom Luciano]

Sorry to hear you cant make it, Mike.

Andre, thank you for the insight on the progression of the X. Your memory seems good to me. Love your contributions, Ive learned  alot!

Tom

[Andre Ming]

Okay... as I was in there brushing my teeth and prepping for bed... a memory file reconnected:

As I NOW recall it, the web was not installed to address case failures that a handful of engines had experienced, but as a side benefit, it did end up addressing it.

I now think I recall that web was added for a drill point for the exhaust flap for the new 36X R/C engine that was based on a modified 36X case. I'll need to wait until tomorrow sometime before I get out to my hobby room where my engines and parts are stored and verify my recollection, but I also now recall there as a radius added at the base of the square intake so the cases destined to become an R/C version could be bored to receive a carburetor w/round venturi. I highly suspect that on a C/L 36X you will NOT find a web exhaust without also seeing evidences of the radius at the very base of the venturi stack. (It's presence was not completely machined off for a C/L 36X.) IF that proves to be so, then my memory jog is likely the correct and real reason: It was added so as to give the ability to convert a C/L 36X into the 36X R/C model.

I also now recall that when I first hired out at Fox in early August of 1970, the 36X R/C was nearing, or on, the assembly line and I was honing pistons and sleeves for that model, as well as for the 35 Stunt.

Since I'm on a memory roll: A fellow modeler-turned-Fox-employee by the name of Chester Avis was the engine run-in man at the time, and once the 36X R/C's started passing through the engine run-in shed, carb issues were noted and the production numbers were very low. (Like maybe 30-50 engines a day, which was a far cry from the 300 or so 35 Stunts we could get through the run-in shed on a good day.) George Moir (the supervisor of assembly at the time) was tasked with finding the reason(s) and also finding a fix (or fixes) to minimize the issue.

SO, the above is the revised version of my memory for the reason for the web in the exhaust, with a time-frame reference for its inclusion, and anecdotes to boot. 

Leastways, that's my (new) story an' I'm a'stickin' to it. 



Andre

[C.T. Schaefer]

Andre, That makes sense. I used the x/rc in profile carrier for a few years successfully. I got the motor and the 'Black Power' fuel from LS. The exhaust baffle also encouraged me to try it on a BB. Using the baffle and a fuel meter I could get a decent idle and pretty good speed on a Dumas Crusader used in local events. Of course once I put a K&B .40 on there the BB went back to combat ships!
  Getting back to the subject. Looking forward to Sundays Festival at GSCB.  Got a couple of unflown ships that need wringing out!   Cheers, TS

[Tom Luciano]

Looks right to me!

[Andre Ming]

Thanks Tom!

You saved me from having to tromp out to my out building (it's raining) and digging through my stuff!

Amazing that R/C carb is STILL epoxied onto the the engine in that last photo! An epoxied carb wasn't one of Duke's finer moments. When the epoxy failed, typically the carb swung into to the arc of the spinning propeller. Not good.

A follow up:

Though the carb on the 36X R/C was really a pretty decent carb (when everything was "right") it was finicky about production standards. As I recall it had idle, mid, and high speed adjustment needles. A good example, dialed in nicely, would idle very slow and the response to full speed would be instant. In my mind I can still hear Chester running those out in the engine shed... prrrrrrrr.. BRAPPP.... prrrrrr... BRAPP... BRAPP. Yup, I can still hear evidences of my years at Fox 24/7 in my ears: Riiiiinnnnnnnnngggggggggg.

Duke decided to throw in the towel on the 36X R/C and designed an entirely new sleeve bearing case and two-needle simpler carb. This carb was held in place with set screws. The case, back plate, and head were much lighter than the X model. All the innards were essentially 36X. Unfortunately, this new case was fraught with issues, and it was this line of 36 engines that I cut my teeth on when first given the Assembly department, but that's another story told before.

NOTE to X fanatics: The reuse of the 36X innards in a 36 R/C means that if you can pick up a nice example of the 36 R/C that replaced the X R/C, you just picked up an entire replacement parts set for the piston, sleeve, crank, wrist pin, connecting rod, head gasket, for your favorite 36X NB case. Also, I think I recall the 36 series back plate had less slop (case stuffer) so it's usable on an X and provides marginal case-stuffing gains compared to the stock X back plate.

This is NOT the case (pun!) on the Fox 36 C/L "Sport" engine: The case, thus crank, was shorter, so the crank will NOT fit a 36X NB.

Over the decades, for my nostalgia combat models, the 36X NB became my preferred engine on account of the crank issue vs a BB version. At the time I theorized that by using NB versions I could keep them alive longer on account of complete innards interchangeability with the 36 R/C. In actuality that proved to be over-thinking (I tend to do that) because I never flew my models enough to even START to wear out the innards!

Oddly, I've super enjoyed recalling, typing out, and sharing these past few posts.

All fer now.

Andre

[Andre Ming]

That engine, what I always called a "front loader", is well before my time at Fox, so I will have to differ to one more versed in that era.

However, I can always make up something, and it will probably sound good... but won't be very factual.   

Andre

[C.T. Schaefer]

The basic case for the 'front loader' was an evolution of the original CS  and 29x from 1957.  Some of the later models had the 4 lugs on the front which, eventually, were used to hold on the nb housing of the FL or what I call the 1961CS.  I am hoping to fly mine this Sunday in the LS  Killer.  Hope not to toss the shaft!!   TS

[Tom Luciano]

Well guys,
  I couldnt be more happy with the way this turned out. CG looks to be good. I also can shorten the nose in the field with a quick cut if it doesnt turn like we want. Tomorrow  it will go thru some thorough testing!

Everybody needs to fly it and then sign it!

Tom

[Andre Ming]

Y'all have a ton of fun!

Sharon and I will be leaving in the morn headed west, so I'll try to keep up with this thread via her laptop while on the road.

Andre Mingliani
(With you all in spirit)

[Tom Luciano]

Hey All,
  Another outstanding Vintage day! As usual the day just flew by.

Some quick results now and we'll get to some details as everyone recovers.

Two really impressive items were the performance of Will Demauro and Bob Hunts electric ships and Al Ferraro's speed run!

Bob's sweet sweep looks really cool in the air and performs really well.

Al decided to go early with his Super Satan and just sent us home with our tails between our legs. Al's time was a blistering 13.95 at 129mph!

Fox 36xbb

[Tom Luciano]

In golf you have the honor of putting the green jacket on the winner. I dwarfed that honor with presenting Jim Vigani with the LS Blown Fox award.