"Would you fly Stunt 25?" Event survey

[Steve Helmick]

I'm not in favor of more events. While California has a history of "Class A" Stunt, not many other areas do. I've gone to the GSSC twice, and Profile isn't flown there, so why would you want to have another event that also won't be flown there? Just wondering what there is to gain. The number of circles available is a limiting factor, and finding the staff to make the contest happen becomes a bigger problem. 

I've been to most of the contests this season in Oregon, Washington, and BC.  None had stellar entry levels. There's no way that adding another event would improve the situation. I just hope that the trend is related to bad weather or the economy, and will reverse itself in the future. I can't see that adding events can help.  Steve   

[Clint Ormosen]

Cheap and simple you say, The still Stuka was designed in 1952. Things were pretty simple back then. As far as cheap goes, how much more does it cost to add flaps to a plane??

One of the things I enjoy most about any contest, is to admire the workmanship and detail of the planes entered. Not to sound like a jackass, but I dont find myself getting jazzed over  monocoated profiles.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
 

Larry, I can't tell if you're messing with me, here.
When I said "cheap", I wasn't necessarily referring to the price of flaps.
When I said "simple" I wasn't necessarily referring to the (non)complexity of the Stuka
There is a happy medium somewhere between a 75% Impact with a 20 pt finish and MonoKote covered profiles. I'm hoping to find it.

My thinking is the "cheap" part is standard production, over the counter engines with NO pipes and some of the readily available production kits. (But doesn't HAVE to be a kit. Make a plane up!)
By "simple" I mean the event itself. Not a lot of rules and taking no time to have them appearance judged. Weigh, pull, and fly. If enough pilots were interested in having AP, I would certainly go for it too.

However, this whole idea may not work. Too many differing ideas. The Beg/Int guys want profile/ARF's and the Adv/Exp want full boat mini-stunters. I still have time to work this out, though. Not giving up just yet.

[Clint Ormosen]

I'm not in favor of more events. While California has a history of "Class A" Stunt, not many other areas do. I've gone to the GSSC twice, and Profile isn't flown there, so why would you want to have another event that also won't be flown there? Just wondering what there is to gain. The number of circles available is a limiting factor, and finding the staff to make the contest happen becomes a bigger problem. 

I've been to most of the contests this season in Oregon, Washington, and BC.  None had stellar entry levels. There's no way that adding another event would improve the situation. I just hope that the trend is related to bad weather or the economy, and will reverse itself in the future. I can't see that adding events can help.  Steve   

Steve, I agree with you that "Stunt 25" will never work on a large scale. However, I was hoping to pull it off at just one contest a year. Maybe two. I wouldn't even try to have it at the GSSC.

[Brett Buck]

However, this whole idea may not work. Too many differing ideas. The Beg/Int guys want profile/ARF's and the Adv/Exp want full boat mini-stunters. I still have time to work this out, though. Not giving up just yet.

     No, I wouldn't give up. But one thing I would suggest as a modification is to get rid of skill classes or, as I suggested earlier, just ban experts. Flying everybody together gives everybody a way to see how they "stack up" (not to mention simplifying the administration). It doesn't seem to hurt anything in Classic, and many people mention that they like classic for that reason.

    I certainly wouldn't want to have airplane restrictions. There's no good reason to limit it that I can see and most of the engines we are talking about work well on profiles, so there wouldn't be a huge motivation to build full-fuse airplanes. And you permit some creativity and imagination.

    If you are going to do this, decide pretty soon and let everyone know in time to get airplanes built. I will either judge it or build and airplane and fly in it if you want, for promotional purposes. Larry took my first idea, but I think I can make a "Super-Feno" using a Feno wing and a longer tail moment by next spring. 20FP or 25LA (boost port version).

    Brett

[Mike Scholtes]

Hi Clint:

Since this idea seems to be trending towards a "CentralCal-25" event, I too will commit to building something for Spring 2012. I already have a Goldberg Shoestring (scratch built in Tuscany in 1974 no less) with an LA25, but it got too porky in a rebuild. A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic. Or something completely original! I think the fatter-winged designs would be too draggy for most 25s if the same airfoil was retained, so maybe some thinning would be called for. Interesting idea, don't give up!

[Clint Ormosen]

   
    If you are going to do this, decide pretty soon and let everyone know in time to get airplanes built. I will either judge it or build and airplane and fly in it if you want, for promotional purposes. Larry took my first idea, but I think I can make a "Super-Feno" using a Feno wing and a longer tail moment by next spring. 20FP or 25LA (boost port version).

    Brett

Thanks Brett! I wanted to do this at a contest early in the next year. If it turns out that *I* can't be the one to put on said contest, I'll see if I can tack this event onto some other CD's contest. I'll everyone know if it's a go ASAP.

[Clint Ormosen]

Hi Clint:

Since this idea seems to be trending towards a "CentralCal-25" event, I too will commit to building something for Spring 2012. I already have a Goldberg Shoestring (scratch built in Tuscany in 1974 no less) with an LA25, but it got too porky in a rebuild. A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic. Or something completely original! I think the fatter-winged designs would be too draggy for most 25s if the same airfoil was retained, so maybe some thinning would be called for. Interesting idea, don't give up!

Thanks Mike. Please see my post above this one.

[Brett Buck]

A Brodak Shark 402 would be a good choice, maybe with flaps, or a scaled down Medic

  Don't scale down a Medic, it's already the right size. Goes GREAT with a 25FP, we have proof.

    Brett

[Bill Ervin]

I've been following this thread Clint and like the idea.  Miniature versions of big stunters possess an undeniable cuteness factor.  A 500 sq. in.  35 oz. version of one of Windy's old designs perhaps?   This one was built 20 years ago with a Fox 35.  A smooth running, modern 25 would be better!  I'm in!

[Balsa Butcher]

Actually, I'm having second thoughts about the concept of custom mini-stunters. I think they would be really cool but for the first year I'm going to recommend a simpler event: No Experts, No appearance points, No flaps. Flite-Streaks, Profile Shark, Magicians, Bill Howe's Bearcat, Skyrays, etc. At least for the first year. If it catches on, you can always add an unlimited/competitor class the next year (leaving time to build) for more serious competitors and open this class to experts . Appearance points should be given at this level. I think there would be time to run it at most NorCal contests, possibly tacked on to Intermediate like NOS 30 is to Classic.

[Jim Thomerson]

For a number of years I have been happily competing in stunt, at the Advanced level, with airplanes powered by TD 09, McCoy 19, Cameron 19, ST G23, etc.  I've flown compete patterns and survived in wind which put piped airplanes in the ground.  No need to make a special category for me. 

On the Doctor/Medic comment, a friend had a scaled down Doctor with a tuned Paw 09 diesel on it.  I watched him fly it in wind where everyone else had put their airplanes in the car.  He did things like triangular vertical 8's, and outside triangles with the points at the bottom.  All with one foot bottoms.  He commented, "That Ted Fancher knows some stuff!" 

[Clint Ormosen]

Lots of good comments here. I appreciate  all of them.

The problem with banning Experts from the class is that the Advanced pilots become the experts. So all it does is give the Advanced guys a trophy shot and the Intermediate guys are screwed.
I'm considering the "no flaps" idea. It would really limit class "development". Yes, I know there are flapless models out there that are very competitive. But you can't ban everything or it's no fun.

[Balsa Butcher]

Your right Clint, let anyone who wants to fly enter regardless of ability. I'd still support no flaps (for the first year anyway) just to keep the playing field a bit more level for those who enter the more basic designs. 

[Brett Buck]

Your right Clint, let anyone who wants to fly enter regardless of ability. I'd still support no flaps (for the first year anyway) just to keep the playing field a bit more level for those who enter the more basic designs. 

   Oh, I don't think that's going to level it, particular in terms of designing it. It may even the score in trimming - since they are easy to trim, you don't have to know that much about it to get it close. But if it's harder to fly, or has limited performance, that will make the gap bigger.  But a general rule of any sport or contest - the more you try to limit it, the more dominant the experts will get.

     Brett

[Joseph Lijoi]

Clint

This is an interesting thread that you have started.  Its kind of morphing into what would be a killer .25 set-up.

I wouldn't DQ the Brett Buck Skyray.  Maybe Brett Buck, or guys named Brett.  To Mr Bucks credit, the development was really finding readily available products in the right combination.  An elegant solution to a problem.  Most of what I read about the Brett Buck Skyray is build it and fly it.  If I am correct, the only mods he recommends are balsa ribs, which is really just to minimize crash damage.  He claims there is really no gain in performance. 

What I read on the FP 20 use is pretty much stock.  Run it on the ground once and then go fly.   The 9-4 APC prop is available in the worst of hobby shops.  Not really what some guys want to hear which is you can by this stuff from Tower Hobies and it works.  Unfortunately the FP 20 is no longer available.

Maybe the WAM rules were to get guys to fly stunt who didn't have a Fox .35.

I would say the Brett Buck Skyray would make a great event. 

 

[Balsa Butcher]

Maybe level the playing field was a poor choice of words. What I meant to convey is that within the class (if there are going to be classes) the planes would be more evenly matched if limited to non-flapped designs. The point is probably moot as I would venture a guess that the plane to beat will be a Skyray with an FP-20. 

[Mike Scholtes]

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

[Clint Ormosen]

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

Mike, I think Walter U. was going to kit the Doctor and Medic. (with Teds blessing.) You might want to check on that.

[builditright]

Quote from: Mike Scholtes on October 12, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Speaking of suitable designs ....

Speaking of suitable designs ....

I've made some preliminary inquiry about getting a laser-cut short kit of Ted Fancher's "Medic," wing ribs, fuselage sides, ply doublers, and a set of plans. That is all that the guys who follow this site need. Would there be any interest in this model if it was available (whether for this proposed event or just generally)?  Of course to go beyond the "idea" stage Ted would have to agree to allow it to be kitted and the other legal niceties resolved. I am not aware of it being available other than as plans.

Mike, I think Walter U. was going to kit the Doctor and Medic. (with Teds blessing.) You might want to check on that.

Hi Mike, what Clint posted is true, I received Ted's blessing to kit his three profiles; the Dr, Medic and his Fancherized Twister.

We are almost ready with his Twister and will be making a few soon but only have the Medic partially done.

If you want a set of ribs I could cut you a set now. I could also provide you with a top view of the wing to build from but our final plans are not completed yet.

If you are interested, send me an email and we can go from there.

Also thank you Clint for the heads up. 

[RogerGreene]

Hi Cliint,

A smaller size plane is a great idea. How about limiting the wing span to 50" and lines to .012"?

My 2¢

Roger

[phil c]

Just build yourself a nice plane and go fly it in the regular events- Profile, Pamap, AMA.  Many of the early stunters will fly extremely well with a Scnuerle 25.  If I remembe correctly, Steve Wooley built and flew a series of Argus designs back in the late 50's early 60's using the Fox 29 stunt engine.  You need a totally different set of numbers than for a 60 in., 4 lb 75 powered plane, but don't let that stop you.

[john e. holliday]

Maybe it is time for a handi-cap system.   I know Richard Byron worked on a list of peoples scores flying the different stunt classes for a few years.   Was supposed to average a persons scores over time.   I think the deal was an average of ten contest scores.  But, almost everyone knows how their scores are going.  How about a contest where the contestant writes his score he thinks he might get on a sheet of paper and then seal it in an envelope.   At end of day when all scores are posted, open the sealed envelope and see who got the closest.

Thinking on this it could be locally real easy as past records of a contest should be available.  The first place guy gets no handi-cap.  Then the guys/gals behind him, their handicap is the points behind they are of his score.  Or is it the hadi-cap is the number of points behind the perfect score of the pattern.

[MikeyPratt]

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Mikey

[Brett Buck]

I wouldn't DQ the Brett Buck Skyray.  Maybe Brett Buck, or guys named Brett.  To Mr Bucks credit, the development was really finding readily available products in the right combination.  An elegant solution to a problem.  Most of what I read about the Brett Buck Skyray is build it and fly it.  If I am correct, the only mods he recommends are balsa ribs, which is really just to minimize crash damage.  He claims there is really no gain in performance. 

What I read on the FP 20 use is pretty much stock.  Run it on the ground once and then go fly.   The 9-4 APC prop is available in the worst of hobby shops.  Not really what some guys want to hear which is you can by this stuff from Tower Hobies and it works.  Unfortunately the FP 20 is no longer available.

Maybe the WAM rules were to get guys to fly stunt who didn't have a Fox .35.

I would say the Brett Buck Skyray would make a great event. 

 

  This is rather flattering. I am glad someone appreciates the effort, which was not insubstantial. In any case it was fun and I learned something, actually a lot of things.

   You have the details essentially correct. If anyone wants to see the originals its documented ad nauseum on SSW, to the point most people got sick of hearing about it. In short, run the engine STOCK, NO MODS AT ALL, with the STOCK MUFFLER and an APC 9-4. Adjust needle to get the speed right and the engine running in a solid medium 2-stroke.

   I don't think it would make much of an event to have it just a Skyray/20FP or 25LA one-design event. It would immensely aid most of the beginner and intermediate fliers since it would fly much better than their usual airplanes and engines and would be easy to trim. In fact at this point I could set up an assembly line for trimming and make them all essentially identical, just bench-trimming them. But I feel it would get boring for the participants pretty quickly.

   It's a darn shame they don't sell 15LA-S's any more, that would be an even more interesting event than 25 (which doesn't seem like much of a limit as previously noted).

   Talking about this gives me another interesting idea that I think I will pursue (secretly until I know I can do it).

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.

  In this case I would debate whether flaps would even be an advantage. I can do square 8's with the Skyray that would be competitive at the TT and it's as easy as falling off a log. The only real limitation it has is that its difficult to fly good straight lines (since you have to put in a substantial AoA change to change the track).

    Brett

[proparc]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

[Brett Buck]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

   I don't think many 25FP stunt planes will be flying on less than 60 foot lines!! You will sure be spinning like a bat out of Hades if you are much under that. The standard for the 20/25 FP is 60 to 62.

   BTW, since this is the time for inputs, if 4-stroke enthusiasts want to play along, you might talk Clint into the 60% rule so you can use Saito 30s.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

I personally would not fly stunt 25 because, I need at least 60 feet "of something" to be comfortable. That means at least a 40.

Nah.. I fly 25's on 60+ ft of .012 line all the time. No problem.

Hi Clint,
I'm in on this one.  Keep in mind that P-40 started out this way and morphed into a large profile event allowing 46’s and flaps.  This always seemed counterproductive to me (just my opinion).  The original concept of P-40 was a simple model with no flaps and .40 and smaller engines.  Brett and others have shown that simple models when adequately powered and trimmed, can be highly competitive.  This also allowed the use of kitted models such as, Skyray, Buster, Shoestring, Flitestreak, and a bunch of others.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Mikey

Mike, this is right on with what I'm thinking!

   
BTW, since this is the time for inputs, if 4-stroke enthusiasts want to play along, you might talk Clint into the 60% rule so you can use Saito 30s.

    Brett

Hmmm........ I kinda' doubt it. If I do that I'll get hit from all sides about letting some size of diesel or electric motor in, too. it's going to be a 2 stroke glow event, period.

[Air Ministry .]

N 30 / 25 .  thatd keep a lid on it . No Composites .Or Plastic . 

[Dennis Moritz]

Sportsman 25. Profiles. No flaps. Can be flown integrated into Profile P46. Same as Nostalgia flown at same time, in front of same judges, as Classic.

Possible sidebar rule: plane must have been kitted. Foamies similarly included.

Flapped planes are more complicated to trim and build. Obviously. When trimmed correctly they fly better (in mortal hands), usually. I guess. Despite Brett's high scores with a Skyray. And Dan Banjok beating up on locals on the East Coats (including Brodak) with Flea Market purchased Ringmasters powered by stock Fox 35s. Well. Usually they are stock Fox 35s. But these days it might be the Fox 35 with the Banjok lapped in piston/cylinder, the replaced and re-fitted front bushing, zoot crank, ringed back plate, straightened case... well, it is a contemporary stock Fox 35. The engine kit.

[MikeyPratt]

  In this case I would debate whether flaps would even be an advantage. I can do square 8's with the Skyray that would be competitive at the TT and it's as easy as falling off a log. The only real limitation it has is that its difficult to fly good straight lines (since you have to put in a substantial AoA change to change the track).

    Brett

My point exactly!!!

Mikey

[proparc]

While I tend to prefer the bigger ships, having flown a lot of Larry Rengers planes, I have to tell you, they are more fun than a barrel of monkeys!! Enya has a 20 size engine that I believe, may be jam packed with control line stunt goodness.

A 25 size category by it's very nature, would be a fun event. Instead of trying do things like eliminate the BOM rule, maybe, events like this with smaller less involved planes, would be one way to go. Designing kits for these motors would certainly be a snap.

I say, give it a try.

[Tom Niebuhr]

I think that this is a great idea, but I also wonder if we have too many events.

I would not restrict it to no flaps. If we have a new event why not encourage new design also. I wouldn't want it to be just another event for 50 year old profiles. Apply what we have learned over the years.

I flew a Fox .25 stunter at the '61 Nats and it was a great little airplane. More recently  I have designed the "Hobo" as a simple step up airplane. It will fly well with an FP .25, with no vibration or twisting problems.

There are also many Classics and some Old Timer full bodied airplanes that would be great for the event. I might even have to finish building the Hi Boy that I started 10 years ago.

[rob biddle]

   About 10 years ago we introduced a club stunt competition for .15 engines max.

 We had a program with a couple of local schools that got kids involved in racing events so they already had o.s fp.10 and .15 engines. This was just an offshoot to allow them to get involved in stunt at minimal additional time and expense.

 It was pretty successful for a couple of years, the only rule was .15cu" engines max, flown to vintage stunt pattern.

 Lots of fun all round.

 Cheers, Rob...

[Tom Niebuhr]

Unless you are from another planet, wind is everywhere.

[Bill Little]

Clint,

For the first year, maybe limit it to kitted profiles with out flaps.  All the Goldberg, Top Flite, Sky Ray, etc., are available from Eric or John or Sig.  The Shoestring, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, ansd Skyray give a lot of choices and even the F.S. ARF will do. 

See how it goes, get feedback and go from there.  It might end up a subcontest using reduced size Trivial Pursuits, SV-11s, Saturns, Geo Bolts, etc., but if it does then so be it!

Let everyone fly together, just reduce the engine size to .25 disp. MAX to start out.  Who knows, someone might have a great flying Jr. Ringmaster with a OS .15FP they want to fly.

Big Bear

[Brett Buck]

Clint,

For the first year, maybe limit it to kitted profiles with out flaps.  All the Goldberg, Top Flite, Sky Ray, etc., are available from Eric or John or Sig.  The Shoestring, Cosmic Wind, Flite Streak, ansd Skyray give a lot of choices and even the F.S. ARF will do. 

See how it goes, get feedback and go from there.  It might end up a subcontest using reduced size Trivial Pursuits, SV-11s, Saturns, Geo Bolts, etc., but if it does then so be it!

Let everyone fly together, just reduce the engine size to .25 disp. MAX to start out.  Who knows, someone might have a great flying Jr. Ringmaster with a OS .15FP they want to fly.

   15FP/Ringmaster Jr.?  If someone does that, make sure and make it a triplane with 3 Ringmaster Jr.   One will not be enough!

     Brett

[Bill Little]

   15FP/Ringmaster Jr.?  If someone does that, make sure and make it a triplane with 3 Ringmaster Jr.   One will not be enough!

     Brett

  Probably right, how about a Flite Streak Jr. w/OS /10FP??

Big Bear