Growth in CL

[Randy Powell]

I found some comments, particularly Brett's, in the thread about BOM and honor interesting. Brett noted that apart from Stunt, other events seemed to be dying or on life support. And I wondered, why is that? While they mostly don't really appeal to me all that much, I can see why they would appeal to others. I can't imagine a teenage boy that combat flying wouldn't appeal to, at least on some level. So then, why are they dying?

I'm not well versed in the rules of other events, but I know what I see. Combat starts a new event designed for beginners, but it isn't long before all the hot shots are flying it. PAMPA started the skill classes so that a brand new flier could fly against guys of roughly equal experience. It seems to me that as other events have made the rules more complicated, or allowed experts to compete in classes that were supposed to be for beginners, people have drifted away. Each time they attempt to introduce an "entry level" event, either the rules are too complicated for a new flier or experts end up flying in it and unintentionally running people off.

This seems, at least from the outside (and I really don't' know, not being a part of these events) the reason many of these events are having trouble.

Any thoughts on that? Just my curiosity, I guess.

[John Stiles]

Yep....it is directly linked to the economy, that and kids grow up and join the military...some make it back and some don't. I remember Jimmy Burke.......we grew up together, then I went to Nam, and when I came home, he had enlisted and just left for Nam...he told our friends he was gonna go meet up with me and bring me home. He came home in a box and had a closed casket ceremony. He was an only child and his family moved away. I got my young start in U/Control when as my family was doing well...they bought me a plane for my birthday, and next thing you know, all us kids started flying the. The hobby shop[hardware store] was plagued by us kids...and buying parts and fuel and glow plugs. But after Jimmy was killed...everything went down. I only picked it back up when I began having my own kids, and we were doing real good in the US Economy! IMO

[Bradley Walker]

Brett noted that apart from Stunt, other events seemed to be dying or on life support. And I wondered, why is that?

You mean CL events?  RC events are doing quite well considering the dwindling Baby Boomer population that will inevitably lead to the shrinkage of all modeling.  In fact, many aspects of modeling are doing quite well (helis are booming).  Almost no one in stunt wants to acknowledge anything about what is going on in the rest of modeling.  What do most stunt flyers know about the rest of modeling?  From my experience?  Almost nothing.  These arguments about "how great we are doing compared to everyone else" seem to hopelessly myopic (and are bantered about by people who have ZERO experience outside their own hobby).

To answer your question for CL?  Age.  Absolutely.  

Combat/Racing/Speed all equal hours and hours on end of physical activity.  Lean, young people that can handle hours of hard activity in the heat are typical at the high levels of these events.

Stunt, even at the highest levels = all lot of sitting and watching, a few patterns, and a lot of guys with guts (at least compared to the other events).  It makes sense that there is a lot of emphasis on building in stunt, as it seems to go with the cross section of the population that is not known as being the most physical group.  We definitely have a lot of people that like to close themselves in a room and build model airplanes for fun.  Most stunt guys I know are not into other sports or physical fitness, so hour after hour spent gluing planes together sounds like a lot of fun to them, even when the sun is shining outside.

The fact that all of the other CL events have gone by the wayside, and stunt has filled up with the leftover flyers is no surprise.  Just look at the demographics.  For example, the idea that the lack of a BOM had much to do with the demise of other CL events is ridiculous in the extreme to me.

Randy:  I do not see a problem recruiting people as long as modern stunt products are available on the hobby shop shelves.  When these new products dry up, the real future of stunt is dead.

[Bob Reeves]

Could it be most other CL events are much more physically demanding compaired to stunt and the growth in stunt has been mostly from old geezers that no longer chose to exert the energy required for the events they once flew. I know in the 70's I went to many contests and flew slow rat, combat and stunt all in the same day, no way could I do that now..

I see while I was typing Brad posted a longer version...

[Andrew Hathaway]

Stunt is more popular, because anyone with a Ringmaster and a Fox 35 can fly a loop...  It's easy to go from that loop to more loops, then inverted, outsides, eights, etc.  It can be flown just about anywhere, by yourself...  Just about every other event requires a flying site where you can make a lot of noise, a really smooth landing/take off surface, or a carrier deck, etc.  Most other events usually involve more then one or two people.  They require hardware that most people aren't going to have laying around from the 60's, and more technical skill to get setup, etc...  Stunt's skill classes help too, but it's really a combination of things. 

[James C. Johnson]

I don't think it has anything to do with model airplanes... but a lot with mentorship... when RC came along CL began to take a back seat. Then I remember the Lairner and Dubro RTFs coming on the scene.. actual building began to wane.. when I was a kid money was a problem but with a couple of .049s and some determination my friends and me ... we kept at it..  there were always adults to help us... and for that I am eternally grateful..  Model Aviation is about people helping people succeed... maybe the drive in competition has changed and we drive others away with the need to win and the need to be right...

It does cost a more these days to do everything.. heck, I used fish and hunt, travel, surf and ski... then I stopped because it just wasn't worth the cost and time I was getting back in terms of enjoyment.. the last place I hunted Pheasants is nick named "The War" because of the amount of people who show up... my dad quit fishing for Steelhead when gun was pulled on him and he was told to move out of certain spot on the river bank.. 

Here is my brother in 1969... he plays guitar and does wood working.. modeling laid the ground work for his career.. he now runs the wood working shop at the prison on McNeil Island.. he has thanked me many times for "making" him a part of flying and building.. Our job is to plant seeds if we want out hobby/sport to continue.

If I remember right the Voodoo and Mustang were covered with parachute... Aerogloss was expensive.. .95 cents a 4oz Jar.. the kits were $3.95 for the Sterling Ringmaster and Mustang.. the Voodoo was $3.00, the Guardian was $4.95.. we bought the Goldberg and Sterling 1/2A Kits for $1.35-1.95 and then would figured out how to build our own little planes and they begin to multiply like rabbits.. fuel was $1.95 a qt for K&B 1000.. but glow plugs were $1.35 for Cox.. we flew anywhere we wanted ..even in front of our house out in the street.. on short lines..



Jim

[Jim Thomerson]

Interesting thoughts.  I think skill classes saved stunt. I don't think I would have taken up flying stunt without them.  I don't see how one could develop skill classes for other CL events.  Comments on the physical demands are right on.  A flying session for me these days is three flights; it used to be five. 

I think part of the success, such as it is, of RC is the complete lack of physical activity and the techiness of fiddling with a control box.  It is also a much less competitive activity than CL.  I bet the number of competitive RC fliers is not much different from the number of CL fliers.  Competition takes dedication and effort which many do not want in a leisure activity.

[Dennis Adamisin]

I would quibble with the comments on RC COMPETITION.  The reality is that except for maybe soaring and the RC assist SAM events, most of the RC competitive events are pretty sparse.  RC'ers have mastered the art of the static show masquerading as a fun fly - check the sanctioned events in MA if you would like to confirm that.  But as soon as you use the "C" word (competition) RC'ers vanish.  Take that from a CD (me) for a NATs RC event that had on flyer record flights over a two day competition.


CL events?
The one event I think could complement Stunt is Carrier.  Carrier USED to be a great event until the goofy stuff like slider leadouts, limited high speed, stupid hovering low speed, no mufflers allowed, and general weirdness took over.

Speed used to be popular - but the margin of specialization has been reached.  Racing events have always been expensive, and the specialization limits have been reached there too.  There also seems to be a "flavor of the month" approach to new racing "formulas" trying to find one with general appeal: A for effort but confusing to which/how many airplanes you need on hand!

I would really like to hear the combat people weigh in on this, but modern combat models are more disposable than ever before - does that mean that combat is harder on equipement than ever before too?  To me a good combat match remains THE MOST EXCITING spectator activity in all of aeromodeling.

Critcis of CLPA argue (not completly inaccurately) that the event is slow to change.  Yet in my time (44 years) we have added skill classes, added OTS & CLassic events that celebrate our heritage, kept a higher standard than many events with regard to models appearance and lately trying to find a "happy middle ground" for ARFS - tho the latter is still a work in process.  The pattern has not changed, equipment has not been obsolesced, and practice and hard work still have (at least in theory!) potential to improve the level of success.  Fox 35's happily compete next to state of the art electrics, and the spoils go to the best practiced and best performing.

[John Stiles]

I can relate to most of the reasons given....especially the tired ole man one. That's me....I have 4 combat planes, two 1/2A and two slow combat planes....we still fly the slow combat planes, but we don't compete....mainly because I'm too old and blind in one eye....and the boys don't want to wreck the planes...they want to hang onto the nostalgia. I've taken a few RC fliers and transformed them into CL fliers, they love it, and and get great laughs and fun out of the sport. If you want to attract more people....do like I did...give them a plane[kit] and check in on them periodic-ly. And kids absolutely love to fly CL...it's a hands on/can do sport.....they may eventually dabble in RC, but they will keep coming back!  In today's world....it's definitely important to be involved with the young folks, if you don't....someone else will, and you may get my drift. TJMHO

[Steve Helmick]

It's my believe that Stunt has a big advantage over a lot of the other CL events, because mechanically they are very similar to sport models. Mild mannered engines with mufflers, suction tank, maybe muffler pressure, able to fly off either grass or pavement. Might be flyable in many parks or skoolyards (sic), even without permission. Try that with racers, combat, speed, or Navy Carrier. The equipment to fly and getting it ready to fly, is fairly minimal and low stress, compared to those other events. Ever set up a regulation Navy Carrier deck? Try it!

Our club has contacted many city park departments, and they are MUCH more agreeable toward "models flown on cables" than they are R/C, to which they are very quick to say "NO WAY".  I guess the R/C folks have a PR problem? They fly higher, noise becomes a problem. They need more space, and insist on overflying other properties, and roads. Not nice...and very bad judgement. So, their flying sites are generally leased private property, and club dues are often hundreds of dollars. It tends to keep the undesireable away, I suppose.

It's not our job to know all about R/C, just as it isn't their job to know all about CL or FF. But at least, we know that RC exists, that they still fly it, and probably several place where. You go to the average LHS or R/C Club, and ask about CL and FF, and they'll tell you that "nobody does that anymore".  We need more publicity...good publicity. AMA should help, but they don't seem to. Maybe it's our own fault, for not sending in pictures and articles for Model Aviation?  Steve


 

[Howard Rush]

Combat seems to be doing fine in Europe.  A lot of kids--girls, too-- are flying combat there.  I figured I was too old and blind to fly combat, but I may do more of it.

[dennis lipsett]

As has been pointed out on too many occasions the sport has been revitalized by returning modellers recapturing a pleasent part of their youth. I certainly returned because of years of fun with C/L. But if you are at all complacent about the future of this aspect of the hobby my best advice is ,don't.
The average age is probably late 50's to early 60's I myself am now 64, and old guys like myself  has been a large part of the revitalization. We are all not immortal and the loss will not be replaced on an equal  ratio so our future is definitely in doubt.
The supply of kits and engines and supplies has never been better but most are supplied by cottage industries and a continuing supply of these products , even the basics to continue building can vanish quickly.
I'm not going to get into the competition part of the hobby as I have no interest in it at all, most of the individuals that I know that have taken up the hobby have expressed the same apathy to compete.
I agree that trying to get young people interested is our best approach to the problem,however  I've yet to find one single young  person that remains interested more then a month or so.
Oh and R/C is also in the doldrums. Park fliers and cheap toys are eating away at the people who do the 2 year rotation through that part of the hobby. Oh and for the average participant in R/C he is more likely to fly electric then glow or gas, It is so much more 'green' you know. Also the guy can think long enough to turn on the switch.
Oh well ,I've rambled on depressingly long enough.
Dennis

[John Stiles]

I know one thing...there certainly seems to be a bunch of "Dennis' s" in the sport[my middle name] and yes...I'm 60. As far as keeping interested....I came back to line control because I saw a ringmaster in the want ads and drove 60 miles one way to buy it. I was a lot younger then and so were my kids....now I'm older...and so are they, but they all...yes girls too....are still ready to fly at a given moment. They are in their thirtys, with the exception of Iris...she's 8.....the Lord blessed her mother and I with as big surprize! But suffice it to say...my grand-kids are now chomping at the bit to get their wings! It may have something to do with living on the farm! I don't know...but the apathy thing is a factor no doubt.....or shall we call it lazy?

[posthole_digger]

I would quibble with the comments on RC COMPETITION.  The reality is that except for maybe soaring and the RC assist SAM events, most of the RC competitive events are pretty sparse.  RC'ers have mastered the art of the static show masquerading as a fun fly - check the sanctioned events in MA if you would like to confirm that.  But as soon as you use the "C" word (competition) RC'ers vanish.  Take that from a CD (me) for a NATs RC event that had on flyer record flights over a two day competition.
 

What is it with some of the CL community? Are they so insecure as to have to bash RC when ever the opportunity arises - and stretch (or ignore) the truth to do it? The statement above is pure hogwash! SAM and Soaring are the only competitive RC events - give us a break!!!

If you don't think the RC folks are competitive, go look at the sites for the SPA, IMAC, NSRCA, etc. (yes, there are others). And most build there own aircraft. Plus, there are numerous local and club contests. Go to the AMA contest calendar and look around. Compare RC scale to the very few who compete in this area in CL. When are we going to have a CL Top Gun? How about a Tournament of Champions?

I have yet to hear an RC individual bash UC - for the most part they could care less about our little niche.

Paul

[John Stiles]

I have yet to hear an RC individual bash UC - for the most part they could care less about our little niche.

Paul

I would definitely quibble with that statement....I've been invited to bring our CL group and fly CL at two separate RC Fun Flys......that means they actually Do Care....people are whom they are, and that spans their their entire personality. The only recreation I've ever encountered concrete evidence of an attitude in, was the Motorcycling community...the ones with the Harleys were generally walking on some invisible path; above all the rest.

[Brad LaPointe]

 As I'm mostly a combat pilot ,who flys stunt ,and LA .25 sport race let me comment on combat. Without RTF models combat would be very near extinct.Not that we are in great health now.In the "old" days if you wanted to crash things you flew combat.Todays kids play video games.Combat still is the most fun to watch event in all of the model aircraft world.RC included.IMHO.

  Old age does have some effect on numbers but when I see guys like Richard Stubblefield flying at world class levels.Wow! It makes me think that flying combat keeps us younger than more relaxing classes.I do enjoy stunt,it is a very social ,laid back way to spend a nice summer's day.A day or weekend of combat will leave me tired for a day or two,not to mention the repairs later.Gettin excited in stunt is always a bad thing.Combat lets you have a controled level of excitement focused on the match.

  Speed limit combat does give new flyers a chance to learn at lower levels.The fact the numbers involved are too small, skill classes just don't apply.Plus in combat you will learn a lot more flying a better opponent than keeping company with equal or lesser opponents.

Fly Combat ! Keep Young !

Brad LaPointe

 

[Jim Kraft]

Ahem; I went from C/L to R/C pattern back in the late 60's. R/C pattern was king back then, with many contests all over the country. Almost every magazine that came out had a construction artical for a pattern plane. I remember going to the nats when there were well over a hundred flyers in 82 in Lincoln Nebraska. I quit flying R/C pattern in 94 and came back to C/L. All of the guys I used to fly with either quit modeling, or went to non competitive events like IMAA where they fly mostly large scale type planes at funflys. I have a couple of friends that fly IMAC competition aerobatics also with large scale type planes. I am not bashing R/C as I still fly some myself. I am just telling it like I see it.

There just is not that many R/C pattern contests around anymore, AMA pattern or IMAC. The number of flyers for R/C pattern, is way down from what it was back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. I believe the cost of equipment has been part of the reason for this. Back when I started, I could build a plane and equip it for about $400.00. Try $4,000 to $5,000 now for a fairly competitve pattern plane, and a lot more for the IMAC planes.

I still belong to an R/C club, but I only know two guys that fly competition. I know many that are fun flyers.

To me C/L is just amazing. There are just so many great people flying stunt. Most of you guys that have never flown in any of the other events have no idea how lucky you are. I have watched many seniors fly the pattern at such a high skill level that I could not believe my eyes. Most of the R/C pattern guys give it up long before that. We do have the advantage of eyesight as our planes only fly 60 to 70 feet from us.

R/C pattern also has skill classes which I do think helped them also to keep going, but we have skill classes plus old time and classic. Just my 2 cents but I think old time and classic has been a huge shot in the arm for C/L stunt. I know I am never going to win open at the Nats, but every once in a while I get lucky, and win an old time contest on the local level. That is just icing on the cake, as I just like flying old time planes with people I like to hang out with.

No one really knows what the future holds for any of this. I say just enjoy it while we can as we have a really great event.

[Leo Mehl]

Before I started riding bicyle again someone told me it will keep you young so I still do it only because I still believe it. Modeling and flying also does the same thing and I also believe staying young is a state of mind.
I have seen young people fly race planes and it was big for a while. I think we had a couple of church groups that used to race in the northwest. I don't think skill classes help in any big way. We were raised during world war 2 when a lot of development in aircraft was happening and everyone was interested in planes. That is no longer true and it is rare to find a kid that can dedicate himself to this hobby for there are so many thing they can do that are just as interesting as modeling and maybe more so. We now have jets that these kids are used to see flying right after they are old enough to walk so aircraft to them is just something that is there.
I think we are worried about something we have no control over. Either it happens that all controline die or it don't and I also beleive a lot has to do with the financial thing. I don't really completly think it will die but we cannot blame ourselves for letting it. Like most things that happen in this world it's either a trend or not. Most of our young people to day are trained to think that a career is more important than anything else and maybe this is so but it also brings more intellegent people into this world that don't have the time or money for a hobby and that is sad.
The fireballs club has done a lot of flight insruction with controline planes and over the years I can only think of one person that has stayed with this hobby. I don't think it's from lack of not trying but how many of these people have really asked anyone to help them build a model.

[Brett Buck]

I would quibble with the comments on RC COMPETITION.  The reality is that except for maybe soaring and the RC assist SAM events, most of the RC competitive events are pretty sparse.  RC'ers have mastered the art of the static show masquerading as a fun fly - check the sanctioned events in MA if you would like to confirm that.  But as soon as you use the "C" word (competition) RC'ers vanish.  Take that from a CD (me) for a NATs RC event that had on flyer record flights over a two day competition.
 

What is it with some of the CL community? Are they so insecure as to have to bash RC when ever the opportunity arises - and stretch (or ignore) the truth to do it? The statement above is pure hogwash! SAM and Soaring are the only competitive RC events - give us a break!!!

If you don't think the RC folks are competitive, go look at the sites for the SPA, IMAC, NSRCA, etc. (yes, there are others). And most build there own aircraft. Plus, there are numerous local and club contests. Go to the AMA contest calendar and look around. Compare RC scale to the very few who compete in this area in CL. When are we going to have a CL Top Gun? How about a Tournament of Champions?

I have yet to hear an RC individual bash UC - for the most part they could care less about our little niche.

   Well, to be a bit nit-picky, we have our Top Gun every year in Muncie. There's no money involved, but if there was, I wouldn't go.

    I think that you are misconstruing some of the comments. I have never heard R/C competitors bash C/L, and while I wouldn't presume to talk for anyone else, I certainly hold R/C competitors in pretty high esteem (less so for the guys who "buy and fly" or have huge support teams but still I appreciate their skill/dedication). But they are few and far between compared to the typical R/C sport flier, who, for whatever reason, seems to hold anyone who doesn't also fly R/C in utter and complete contempt, and are willing to say so at the drop of the hat. I think that's what people are referring to. Any of them who have actually tried C/L are fine because they know better, but most of them are completely insufferable.

     Brett

[Paul Smith]

Navy Carrier was VERY popular where I flew, until 1975.  The only "problem" was there were so many entries you couldn't get in all your attempts in one day. 

Then, a small group of guys who never figured out how to go FAST changed the rules so they don't need to go fast to win.  Now, if they have more that three entries, it's a bonanza.  But they don't care, cuz now  they always win.

The bulk of the flyers, 90-to-95% "quit" because all their stuff was instantly obsolete.  Nice job, CLCB!

-------------------

The story in combat is pretty much the same.   "Slow" dropped from 33 entries to 3, cuz of an unwanted and unneeded flyaway shutoff rule.   F2D took off like a rocket because it was still shutoff-free, but that got buggered up this year.  We'll see......

-------------------------
The current wave of unneeded rules changes in stunt probably won't be as fatal, but the ruling few are treading on the same thin ice.

[Brett Buck]

The story in combat is pretty much the same.   "Slow" dropped from 33 entries to 3, cuz of an unwanted and unneeded flyaway shutoff rule.   F2D took off like a rocket because it was still shutoff-free, but that got buggered up this year.  We'll see......

   Of course, if you didn't have shutoffs, the entries would be ZERO, nil, nothing, because you wouldn't be allowed to hold the contest in the first place. Airplanes rocketing into the crowd at 120 MPH is not a viable proposition.

   Actually, I doubt that shutoffs have ANYTHING to do with the decline of combat, but I guarantee that not having shutoffs will kill it even quicker.

       Brett

[Randy Powell]

I should point out that I have flown RC in competition. I flew Quickee 500 and Formula One back in the 80s. Made a try at Turnaround Pattern until I realized that I was just trying to recreate CL flying. I quit flying RC (except a little electric park flier that I fly in my driveway occasionally) because ultimately, I didn't care much for the guys that I flew with (with a couple of notable exceptions) and I didn't like the feeling of detachment from the plane. A trainer feels just like a Formula One from the box. The races I went saw less and less fliers and the guys left kept wanting to change the rules to give themselves an edge. People just drifted away to other things are sport flying. Too much hassle, I suppose. But I don't denigrate guys that fly RC. Everyone has something different they like to do. I go to the local RC field occasionally and it's always interesting. All ARFS (and I mean ALL). Only about half the guys even understand what makes them fly and the generally have no idea what to do if something breaks except to take it back to the hobby shop.

There are two guys that fly pattern planes and one that has, at least, built his own sometime in the past (though I don't think he does anymore). Both these guys fly in competition. And both will talk planes and have a pretty good grasp of how to build and trim. They repair their own planes when something gets dinged and are always full of questions about CL or ready to show off some new trick. Good guys. The rest (about 40 club members, though the number varies. They have about 15 regular, hard core members and the other 25 or so comes and goes. Always new faces) are pretty obnoxious about it. They are all weekend sport fliers and can be pretty insufferable. Last Summer, I broke out an old wreak of a Quickee I had in the rafters, fixed it up and cleaned it and asked a friend if I could fly as a guest. Went out and you couldn't believe the comments. The Quickee was not pretty, had an old K&B 40 on it (that fired right up) and a faded finish. Kind of a cool paint scheme and it was once and really nice looking plane. Did you actually build it yourself? How did you know how? (someone really asked me this). How come you don't join the club? I said that I didn't fly much RC and mostly did CL and that they didn't have a circle. That cooled the questions. It was an interesting experience.

Point is, almost none of these guys are modelers. The two guys that are, are pretty cool, the rest of just playing with toys that they really don't understand. It a false belief that RC competition is healthier than CL. It's not. The AMA recognizes it but instead of trying to increase interest in modeling (and maybe it's not possible), the just cater to the guys playing with toys. I guess that's OK, but if falls to use to continue to support what we do. Trying to become like RC isn't going to perpetuate CL flying. It's like to kill it.

Hey, just my opinion

[Dick Byron]

I simply can not resist posting here. I have a question that some may like to answer.
  How would you feel if you drove 1,000 miles for a contest and the contest director, event director had no clue what a class "C" event sanction is. Last month Greg Hahn, in his AMA article, explained what it required.
   How would you feel if the flight rules were not followed. I realize that any subjective event has its judging problems and because of that I won't go any further with that.
   Now for the point. How would you feel if you personally saw one of the judges walk by you on his way to the score board, look at the score you had just posted, the one that put you in first place, and returned to his seat and proceeded to score his friend and club member higher while ignoring the actual flight? It was the last flight of the day.

   HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? It happened. Go to: http://www.dickbyron.com/dickbyron_008.htm Just follow the link from there.

  Now you know the rest of the story!!!

[Brett Buck]

Point is, almost none of these guys are modelers. The two guys that are, are pretty cool, the rest of just playing with toys that they really don't understand. It a false belief that RC competition is healthier than CL. It's not. The AMA recognizes it but instead of trying to increase interest in modeling (and maybe it's not possible), the just cater to the guys playing with toys. I guess that's OK, but if falls to use to continue to support what we do. Trying to become like RC isn't going to perpetuate CL flying. It's like to kill it.

   Precisely. In fact, R/C competition isn't doing particularly well. C/L Stunt NATS has more entries than almost all the R/C categories, depending on how you count, we are a close #3 of *all NATS events*, and have probably been #1 in several recent years. And our entries have mostly been growing, and all the others have been falling.

     Brett

[Will Hinton]

I think the main thing we can see here is the variety of experiences each of us has had in the hobby, and it seems to me that each and every post is therefore accurate.  Accurate within the scope of each individual's life, that is.
Myself, I wish I had a PA for every time I've been asked by the r/c people when I was going to "step up" to r/c, or something like that.  Add to my PA stable a tuned pipe for each time I've been told "Nobody flies c/l any more."
Now, by the time you take away one of those PA's and tuned pipes for the number of times I've run into r/c folks who got excited about my flying c/l and were curious about the state of the sport, related how much they used to enjoy it, etc., I probably wouldn't have any more PA's & pipes than I do now.  (You ain't gettin' these two PA's!)
Folks are what they are, prejudeses and all, and we just gotta live with that, so let's just continue to love and enjoy this great sport we call CLPA and each other and be the best ambassadors we can be.  And may competition live forever!
Will

[dennis lipsett]

Brett,
I'm not baiting you but didn't the nats benefit from an influx of modellers from Brazil and other places which certainly helped the overall percentage of people participating.
Dennis

[Brett Buck]

Brett,
I'm not baiting you but didn't the nats benefit from an influx of modellers from Brazil and other places which certainly helped the overall percentage of people participating.
Dennis

   Oh, certainly, and 2004 was expected to be really good. But over the years from 94-2008 there was a pretty consistent increase from year to year, even if you took the Catho team out of it. Not a straight line, but a big boost. Even in 2008, we were still near the top event, depending on how you counted. It's all on the AMA web site going back to about 99. I am almost certain we are the only large competition event that went up over that time (small events excluded because a few more people showing up indicate large increases, percent-wise).

   This has also been mirrored in our local event entries. I am estimating, but I would guess we have roughly doubled Stunt entries at the average local contest over the past 15 years or so, and particularly in the last 10 years.

     Brett

[Bradley Walker]

   Oh, certainly, and 2004 was expected to be really good. But over the years from 94-2008 there was a pretty consistent increase from year to year, even if you took the Catho team out of it. Not a straight line, but a big boost.

A very interesting statistic would be the average age of the flyers in these growing Nats.  Keep in mind that VSC is also doing quite well as far as attendance.  I would also hazard to guess that the average age at VSC is very high.

This age demographic would speak to the sustainability of the growth.

I do not think the growth is an issue in our little hobby, as much as the sustainability of the growth.

[Will Hinton]

A very interesting statistic would be the average age of the flyers in these growing Nats.  Keep in mind that VSC is also doing quite well as far as attendance.  I would also hazard to guess that the average age at VSC is very high.

This age demographic would speak to the sustainability of the growth.

I do not think the growth is an issue in our little hobby, as much as the sustainability of the growth.


I agree with you.  An interesting flow of numbers to look at also would be the FCM weekend over the past 8 years.  Our stunt turnout has typically been from 40 to 50 entries counting all classes and old time & classic while the other events have combined to be another 20.  That includes racing, speed, carrier, speed limit combat, and scale!  Stunt is by far the most attended although scale seems to be on the increse.

[Brett Buck]

A very interesting statistic would be the average age of the flyers in these growing Nats.  Keep in mind that VSC is also doing quite well as far as attendance.  I would also hazard to guess that the average age at VSC is very high.

This age demographic would speak to the sustainability of the growth.

I do not think the growth is an issue in our little hobby, as much as the sustainability of the growth.

     I would guess the average age has probably stayed the same or gone down, most of the growth at the NATs has been new guys (Matt Neumann, Derek, Orestes, Josias, Curt, heck, me, for that matter). A lot of the older guys are dropping out. Take the results pages, guess at the ages, and it would be pretty close.

   Locally, it appears to be about a wash, and I would put the average age somewhere in the mid-40's. If I get a chance I will take a stab at it. We have a few retreads or guys from other events, but mostly it seems to be new guys that have been developing. I would guess our beginner/intermediate group average age is about 30.

       Brett

[Paul Smith]

   Of course, if you didn't have shutoffs, the entries would be ZERO, nil, nothing, because you wouldn't be allowed to hold the contest in the first place. Airplanes rocketing into the crowd at 120 MPH is not a viable proposition.

   Actually, I doubt that shutoffs have ANYTHING to do with the decline of combat, but I guarantee that not having shutoffs will kill it even quicker.

       Brett

FAST combat planes go 120 MPH or more and maybe the shutoff (or a speed reduction) might have been justified.

But tarring planes that can't even break 100 with the same brush was an ignorant and fatally destructive blunder.

[Dennis Adamisin]

...in 2008 gas prices were berserk, and I am sure that a lot of local events took a hit.  For 2009 the economy is going to have an impact.  Still I think CLPA is in pretty good shape.

Back to Randy P's original post, other CL events do not seem to be on such solid footing.  As Paul Smith & I pointed out, Carrier used to be a huge event that could anchor (no pun intended) any club's annual contest, and CLPA was the event that got finished early.  Not any more.  I remember the family station wagon being filled up with stunters, and a couple carrier planes as we went to contests,  I think Carrier is an event that even our more "seasoned" CL'ers could enjoy.  I think that the Carrier SIG people would be the right people to take care of their event - but it does not seem to be as healthy as CLPA.

Could it also be that the success of spin-offs like OTS & Classic came at the expense of other CL events.  Carrier rule changes obsolesced equipment, and an OTS can be as simple as a Ringmaster.

[Brett Buck]

FAST combat planes go 120 MPH or more and maybe the shutoff (or a speed reduction) might have been justified.

But tarring planes that can't even break 100 with the same brush was an ignorant and fatally destructive blunder.

   Uh, they go a lot faster when they don't have any lines, and is your argument that going into the crowd at 100MPH instead of 120 is somehow OK? Thank goodness you aren't in charge of anything.

     Brett

[catdaddy]

    Thank goodness you aren't in charge of anything.

     Brett

Yes indeed, thank goodness.

[Mike Scholtes]

This is getting a tad off topic, but ...

I witnessed a flyaway of a Nelson-powered Russian combat model at our field after it snapped both lines and went bye-bye. No (working) shutoff. Thankfully it arced over and hit a large tree. If that sucker had made it to downtown Alameda on the minute or so of fuel onboard, or even the busy soccer field a quarter mile away across the estuary, I GUARANTEE we would have no more model field in Alameda.

As a former Combat flyer I would not like to see even a VooDoo on the loose, having seen exactly that.

On the age and number of flyers, certainly here in Northern California participation is way up over ten years ago, and the majority of the "surge" comes from new, younger flyers. The mild climate probably has a lot to do with it, but it doesn't explain all of the increase. And most of the new guys are building their own stuff!

[Randy Powell]

>>I do not think the growth is an issue in our little hobby, as much as the sustainability of the growth.<<

This may be a good point Brad. It's really hard to tell. True that a lot of CL fliers are older (40-50 or more), but I've noticed that a lot of "new" guys have never flown CL before. They have either walked off the street (so to speak) or have come from other modeling (and I use the term loosely) events. I really don't know if that will allow the event to sustain itself. But regardless, it is an event that seems to attract older guys. The advent of ARFs may change that to some extent. It takes awhile to accumulate the skills to build a competitive plane.

[Bradley Walker]

     I would guess the average age has probably stayed the same or gone down, most of the growth at the NATs has been new guys (Matt Neumann, Derek, Orestes, Josias, Curt, heck, me, for that matter). A lot of the older guys are dropping out. Take the results pages, guess at the ages, and it would be pretty close.

   Locally, it appears to be about a wash, and I would put the average age somewhere in the mid-40's. If I get a chance I will take a stab at it. We have a few retreads or guys from other events, but mostly it seems to be new guys that have been developing. I would guess our beginner/intermediate group average age is about 30.

       Brett

The largest demographic in the US is, by far, the Baby Boomers.  I would really, really, really be surprised if the CL population is not more greatly weighted with Baby Boomers than the national population. 

I know it is the largest age bracket in District 8.  Not even close.

Heck, look at this board....  The average age is well over 50.

[Andrew Hathaway]

When I got involved with C/L the majority was older, there were a few other kids involved but mostly because they were dragged along.  The ones that were interested disappeared about the time they obtained a drivers license and a car.  Now I look around at contests and I hardly see anyone under 40, and most of the time they aren't flying.  It's odd cause I go to a contest and I feel like I'm 14 again cause there is such a huge age gap.  I'm 31 and there's usually no one close to my age involved.  My friends have never been interested in C/L, and haven't been interested in R/C either.  It was true when I was 10 and it's true now.  They may show a spark of interest walking through the garage or workshop clogged up with planes and engines, but they have absolutely no interest in getting involved.  It didn't matter if I offered to give them everything they needed, they just couldn't care less.

The next problem I see is there's no place for someone interested to easily pursue that interest.  Most places don't have a place to fly.  At least not without risk of getting run off by the police for making noise.  Most places don't have a helpful hobby shop stocked with everything they need to get in the air.  If they do the place is more likely to sell them some RC toy anyway.  Most places don't have a helpful club to provide guidance.  Fixing all those problems is just the beginning... You still have to make C/L socially acceptable, and you have to raise awareness. 

[john e. holliday]

Growth in CL can be attributed to us.  I am as guilty as any one else.  How many times have we taken a youngster out to fly.  I mean just to go fly for the fun of it.  I told the kids I took to St Louis that they didn't have to fly if they didn't want to, but, that I needed help.  When they decided to fly I put my concentration on them.  Ge them in the air.  The event director was also told if they had to just pass me by.  They were very leniant and let me fly disrupting the flight order that was in progress.

Why did I give up racing, combat and carrier.  They were getting to fast and expensive.  Also when I flew the events the was only one class of carrier.  One class of racing not counting F2C.  Only one class of combat. 

In carrier, the line slider came into being while I was playing with F2C.  I loaned out my carrier stuff so that an individual could fly the event.  When I tried to fly again needless to say I was way out of date.

Quit combat when the powers to be said we could not start our own engines anymore.  Flew some local events as they allowed us to start our engines.  I was not as serious about combat as some were in our area.

Quit racing as I couldn't keep a pilot.  The one pilot I could depend on lived 70+ miles away.  Also some of the events got too fast for my liking and could not get people to listen on how to slow it down to keep interest up.  Especially when you only have maybe a half dozen pilots that can control the plane even under two up flying.  Besides it was not fun with only two planes.  The real straw was being on the NATS site and watching people pull up with planes, engines and hardware for competition for the ones in the know who had first choice.  Always had the problem of getting the pilots to quit leading their planes too much.  I guess I have rambled too much.

But, I fly stunt as there are more contests for it.  DOC Holliday

[John Stiles]

I have found over the years that the thing that drew most young men into the sport, was the "FUN FACTOR".....we didn't lay a bunch of restrictions on equipment or when to be there...we just said, hey, lets go fly all our planes this weekend and thats what we did...and we had fun. And when people saw us having fun, they couldn't hardly stand it and wanted to know where to get the planes and how to build them and they would show up one day ready to go. And we drew the line on difficulty as each flier progressed in skill. I remember the first time they saw me going the wrong way with my old ringmaster with a fox .35.....everybody there groaned a collective "oh no" thinking it was gonna be crash time, but I righted the plane to howls of delight. A few months later and many wrecked planes, I had several guys flying inverted and doing figure 8s and all kinds of stunts....they found described in their kit plans. I can just imagine how many people begin to get apathy when "contests get so complicated that the cream rises to the top.....the dregs go down the drain. The most important thing in my mind that is the glue that holds CL together is fun....and when we keep it simple..........we won't crowd out the fun. TJMHO

[Howard Rush]

I don't have formal data, but it seems to me that more people flew combat in economic recessions than in boom times.  I figured that this was due to people not being able to afford more expensive sports like racing cars.  I mentioned this observation to Bob Hunt awhile back.  He said that all hobbies enjoy more participation in hard times.  I hope I can get a practice time slot on the L-pad in July. 

[Steve Helmick]

I don't seem to have the time or energy to build, especially after the jackasses I work for suck all the creativity out of me. When I worked in QFC (Quality F. Control), I built a lot, because I had no creative outlet at work.

Here, jobs have been 2-5 years in duration for me. Several of those companies went out of business or sold and downsized because they wouldn't sign up for Boeing's incredibly stupid 5 year contracts (you WILL reduce the price of all items by 5% per year!). So work hasn't been real steady for me, until '99, when I landed where I'm at now. Things were really slow after Sept. 11, 2001, but we got through it with 3 or 4 day weeks. Currently, I am at the point where I need to sign up for SS, Medicare, etc., and if things get slow, I'll become an Artist, working for the Government...drawing unemployment checks. 

Anyway, what I'm leading up to, is that while I haven't been building, I've been stockpiling the stunt goodies that I don't expect will be available forever. At this point, it looks like I have a lifetime supply of most the essentials... and my health has taken some bad turns lately. But retirement is a wonderful medicine, I hear.  Steve

[Brett Buck]

The largest demographic in the US is, by far, the Baby Boomers.  I would really, really, really be surprised if the CL population is not more greatly weighted with Baby Boomers than the national population. 

I know it is the largest age bracket in District 8.  Not even close.

Heck, look at this board....  The average age is well over 50.

     I went through the 2008 Golden State results (since I had them in an easy-to-use format) and took some stabs at the ages (a fair guess) and, out of the 76 entries, the average age came out to be 44. Some people are double-counted, and it's not overly scientific, but it seems pretty close.

  As long as I have the statistics at hand and perhaps off-topic:

  Total entries - 76
  Individual competitors - 54
  OTS Entries - 7
  Classic Entries - 15 (7 "Sportsman", 8 "Competitor")
  Beginner - 5
  Intermediate - 11
  Advanced - 17
  Expert - 19
  Junior -1
  Senior - 1

   Brett

[Michael Floerchinger]

Interesting comments throughout this post. The amount of participants comes and goes in waves, I have seen dry periods where there would only a few of us at Buder park flying and then I have seen times where you had to wait an hour to get in a practice flight. I was in town the weekend of the Ice 0 Lated contest in St. Louis. It was 26 degrees and there were a lot of people there! I witnessed kids flying that were quite young, that was very encouraging.

I have flown RC and went back to CL. RC was too much like a video game, lots of manipulation but no feedback. What I like about CL is you are actually “flying” the airplane, you get feedback, when you have flown a while you know when there is something not right by the feel of the handle, plus there is no better feeling when you nail an inverted pull out four foot over the asphalt without a wobble.

I like flying what I have built, I like building but most of all I like the camaraderie of the CL folks. I really had a good time at the Ice O Lated even in 26 degree weather. Getting to see all of the people that I had grown up with in CL warmed my heart and to see the young ones flying was enlightening. I have been shopping around and I can get back into the hobby rather cheaply, even if I go with a Fox 35 and a Ringmaster, I can still get back into the hobby for under a couple of hundred bucks. That is cheaper than the video games out there right now and a whole lot more rewarding to actually accomplish something.

[Bradley Walker]

out of the 76 entries, the average age came out to be 44. S

While this a very good study, I am not sure that "average" is the statistic to use in this case.

You could have three 60 year olds and one 5 year old, with and average age of 46, but there were no 46 year olds present at all.  The problem is the missing age brackets and the distribution, not the average age.

If grandpa brings out his two grandkids (which lowers the average age), while that is VERY COOL and we need that, I do not think it fixes our problems...

[chuck snyder]

Going back top Randy's original post as to why the other events are dying out. My opinion is very similar to what Doc Holiday said a few posts above. Control line is largely about competition. (yes racing is fun, but fat chance getting anybody living nearby to build something guys our age can fly, or even getting somebody to fly his Ringmaster with you) The events are basically unchanged in many years. I suspect that when guys reach the limit of their ability (combat in my case) or desire to put forth the effort and money to be competitive (carrier in my case) they drop the event. Stunt has the skill classes which I believe make it attractive on a continuing basis. R/C on the other hand has had a continuous progression of what I shall call fads. A guy can stay in the hobby and always have something new to try whether it be hovering (pretend helicopters), easily flyable helicopters, foamies, giant IMAC, etc. An average sport flyer can stay involved without continually being outshone at a contest.

Check out my post on the 2010 cale world championsips (scale forum) C/L scale is about to be "officially" declared dead.

Chuck Snyder

[Jim Kraft]

Hate to see that about C/L scale. I remember back in 82, I was at the nats flying R/C pattern, and I ran in to a fellow with a C/L scale Sterling Stearman that was just beautiful. I almost gave up pattern that day, and switched to C/L scale. It really impressed me. I love scale, but am not very good at the details it takes to be competitive.

[dale gleason]

In response to a Race that "mature" pilots can fly, there is an event for that. It is featured at both  "big" Dallas meets, plus the "racing" contests. It is Goldberg Race. Topeka calls it "Big Goodyear".  Goldberg allows only the Cosmic Wind, Buster and Shoestring, the old Carl Goldberg profile stunt planes. John Brodak kits them if you cannot locate an original kit or duplicate one with plans. Box stock Fox 35 up front. Commercially available props only. 10% nitro, two wheel landing gear, no hot gloves or shut offs. I guess they go about 55 or 60 mph. The races are won in the pits, usually. The pilot doesn't get dizzy or exhausted. The pit man shouldn't get exhausted either- beginning pilots learn very quickly to always get their plane to the pitman, or else he will hear about it!  Although speeds are relatively slow, the competition is lively, four up at once is the limit. Starting a hot Fox 35 is not a problem, ever.

I guess this reply should be in the "Racing" forum, but how would you know it was there?   Respectfully submitted,  dale g

[Brett Buck]

While this a very good study, I am not sure that "average" is the statistic to use in this case.

You could have three 60 year olds and one 5 year old, with and average age of 46, but there were no 46 year olds present at all.  The problem is the missing age brackets and the distribution, not the average age.

   That's why Golden state is a good choice - there are so many entries that the anomalies have less effect on the results. But since I know for sure, there was a 7-year-old, the next youngest was 18, and everybody else was in their 20s or older. There were a bunch of people in their mid-20's-40, a few in the 40-50 range, and bunch over 50 and 65. That also makes some sense, the older people would have started when C/L was still pretty big (and R/C was expensive and unreliable), the 40-50s were around when it looked pretty bad in the late 70's-mid-80's, and the rest started after the real explosion in the late 80's and 90's. I would have to spend a little time to work it out better than that, and if I do, I will add the 2007 and 2008 NATs entries, and 2007 Golden State. But don't wait around for it, I got a lot of irons in the fire and anybody else could do something similar with the NATs, Brodak's contest (just stunt entries), or any other big conventional contest,  and I think the answer will be about the same.

      Brett

p.s. NATS 2004 Open entrants = avg age - 46.5 . And an observation - assuming a uniform distribution, and that on average people stop flying around 70, you would expect the average in Open to be around 45. So the two examples I have indicate that we are very close to the average age you would expect, not skewed towards oldsters. It's clear to me that it's not actually uniform, but "u"-shaped right now, but nonetheless...

   I invite/suggest anyone interested to take the entry lists from big contests and, knowing who is who, guess the ages. Make fair guesses - don't intentionally guess to make your argument come out right. I have probably  done all that I am going to, since I have pretty much convinced myself my gut feeling was about right. I did get a surprise about the distribution, but it makes sense in retrospect.

[Bradley Walker]

Make fair guesses - don't intentionally guess to make your argument come out right. I have probably  done all that I am going to, since I have pretty much convinced myself my gut feeling was about right. I did get a surprise about the distribution, but it makes sense in retrospect.

I think this is a good exercise.  A very productive one, in fact.

I know I am open minded, by my eyes tell me what I currently believe. 

Of course, I am here, you are there.  There could be a major difference.

I will talk to John about maybe trying to get some data on CLW subscribers.  Maybe PAMPA could do the same.  Maybe we could do some real good there.

[Randy Powell]

Brad,

I think our view are generally colored by what we see locally. I suspect that what you see in Texas is very different that was we see in the Northwest, or what Brett sees in California (or others see elsewhere). So much of this is dictated by the conditions and distributions locally. Makes it hard, sometimes, to talk about this stuff since what folks are saying is clearly at odds with what our own experience is.

[Andrew Hathaway]

If you're in a hot spot it looks like C/L is booming... If you're in South Dakota like I was for over a decade it looks extinct.  Here in Kansas C/L is alive, but I still don't see any growth.  For the most part, the people I see at contests are the same people I saw in the early 90's.