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Author Topic: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)  (Read 7460 times)

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2017, 08:43:30 PM »
This is why I will keep supporting the AMA.. Even if MA becomes entirely devoted to quadcopters

http://www.modelaircraft.org/oklahoma.aspx
http://salsa4.salsalabs.com/o/51579/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=21244

Right now, we need to realize that we need drone fliers in our camp.  We need to embrace variations of this hobby and pull them into the fold in order to protect our common interests and promote responsible operation.

Years ago there were ads in MA for renewal that said "Strength in numbers." That is still the case. The AMA is the only organization that has the clout right now to help fight these legislative battles.



 Absolutely clueless statements above, entirely missing the core issues that us long time aero modelers have been concerned with about the drone movement. For one, I'd be willing to bet that less than .01% of drone owners are AMA members, or even know what the AMA is.

 It continues to amaze me that so many people can't immediately recognize the damage that the drone movement has and will continue to do to Model Aviation as we've known it, like Brett points out, for nearly 100 years. It's just another example that proves my theory that I've had for quite some time now, that the general society "sheep" in this country become more ignorant and grow in numbers every day.  HB~>
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2017, 04:42:27 AM »
I've thought about this a lot.

My issue with the AMA isn't that they want to include multirotors, it's that they've adopted an "all-in" strategy for them while seemingly distancing themselves from the core membership.

If the AMA wants to include MR's as a SIG I'm fine with that. Maybe then they'll realize there are more free flight an CL people in the AMA than MR pilots.


I think the AMA has made two huge mistakes in it's years. First was to move the Nat's to a home field and not have it move around the country. Second is the way they've adopted MRs as the future when all I see tells me we should be differentiating ourselves from them so as not to be grouped in with them.

MR's are not consistent with model aircraft and they can't be operated together.  A drone doesn't require a maintained runway or circle, yet at my field they seem to be compelled to hover over the middle of the runway while the operator looks at a screen instead of what's going on around him.  Nothing like shooting a landing with your 20 pound, $2000 airplane while a drone is zipping up and down the flight line taking movies. Or doing an overhead eight and seeing a drone coming at you.

To date, at our field, nobody has actually had a multirotor shoved up his A$$, but the subject has been discussed.
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Offline BillLee

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2017, 06:26:29 AM »
...
They are computerized toys.
...

BINGO!  :(
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline BillLee

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2017, 06:36:32 AM »
...Their spare time are used on Netflix or computer games. If someone starts in the hobby at adult age, probably will start with a ready to fly plastic toy, and if he really wants to continue, will try an ARF because it is what is available mostly. ...

This is why an RC ARF (last year) and a Drone (this year) are such a hit: they are little different from a computer game. Go buy it, play with the new toy for awhile, become bored or wreck it, go on to the next hot toy.

It is NOT Model AVIATION!
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2017, 12:13:46 PM »
This is why an RC ARF (last year) and a Drone (this year) are such a hit: they are little different from a computer game. Go buy it, play with the new toy for awhile, become bored or wreck it, go on to the next hot toy.

It is NOT Model AVIATION!

   Exactly. The same approach - buy-and-fly - selects for people with only casual interest who will quickly become bored with it, then move on.  That's not going to create a sustainable core group.

     Brett

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2017, 01:17:31 PM »
As many times as I try to be the odd man out === and try to defend the newer technology ====because I find it fascinating

I have to agree with Brett and friends

AMA has lost the rudder and is chasing $$$$ to the determent of the core values

I am still in the quandary...re-enlist (zero benefit to me) or write the AMA off as a lost group of imbeciles

I no longer need the insurance... BUT do suspect THEY (AMA) are the only advocate lobbying for Hobby Model Aviation

HELL-- damn IT ---will one of you fugging millionaires PLEASE form an alternative entity

I know right this moment if I (can't win if you don't enter) won the 100 million Power ball... How I would use a large portion to promote and defend the Model Airplane hobby
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline phil c

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2017, 04:16:54 PM »
Actually, quad copter racing is about the only RC event, besides a bit of sport flying that I'd consider trying.  Met a couple of younger guys locally and watched them do it, and some video.  Doing it FPV looks like fun.  Rather difficult, requires precision flying, close quarters stuff, not too many rules, and a clear winner(s), and not too expensive.

They're both doing it under the aegis of local RC clubs, safely and non-intrusively.

Phil C

ps- besides, I wouldn't need better glasses.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2017, 11:15:45 PM »

I have to agree with Brett and friends

AMA has lost the rudder and is chasing $$$$ to the determent of the core values

I no longer need the insurance... BUT do suspect THEY (AMA) are the only advocate lobbying for Hobby Model Aviation


 Ok, here it is...

 The ONLY thing that the AMA is an advocate for anymore is chasing, subscribing to, and promoting whatever low effort avenue they can find that will confidently line their pockets with $$$. They don't give a microscopic S--T about Model Aviation, it's ALL about $$$.
 The leadership has taken 80 plus years of what created and has maintained their existence, turned their backs on it all, and all of us who have supported it, proclaimed drones etc as OUR future, and is now shoving that "future" directly up all of the memberships asses. Remember, this is the "leadership" that AMA members PAY $$$ FOR. Anyone who can't figure any of this out has to be a total effin' moron.

 Well (and very disappointingly) as far as this 40 plus year aero modeler and EX AMA MEMBER is concerned, the AMA can kiss my a--.  D>K

 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 11:33:24 PM by wwwarbird »
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2017, 04:23:27 AM »
Ok, here it is...

 The ONLY thing that the AMA is an advocate for anymore is chasing, subscribing to, and promoting whatever low effort avenue they can find that will confidently line their pockets with $$$. They don't give a microscopic S--T about Model Aviation, it's ALL about $$$.
 The leadership has taken 80 plus years of what created and has maintained their existence, turned their backs on it all, and all of us who have supported it, proclaimed drones etc as OUR future, and is now shoving that "future" directly up all of the memberships asses. Remember, this is the "leadership" that AMA members PAY $$$ FOR. Anyone who can't figure any of this out has to be a total effin' moron.

 Well (and very disappointingly) as far as this 40 plus year aero modeler and EX AMA MEMBER is concerned, the AMA can kiss my a--.  D>K

 


Morning, Wayne.
You summed it up perfectly.  y1  y1
I really have to wonder where all the $$$$ go what with the membership dues, all the absurd advertising in the rag, ridiculous gnats entry fees and so on.
Maybe well spent, maybe not.
In any case, I'm glad with all the responses here (minus a few totally stupid ones) that I'm not the only one fed up with all this drone crap - "The future of model aviation". Possibly, no, make that definitely the most insidiously STUPID comment I've ever read in a model airplane magazine.  ''  ''
Bob Z.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2017, 09:40:00 AM »
It looks to me that drone subjects and drone advertising in MA is a wasted effort.  "Drone people" do not belong to AMA, and therefore do not have access to the magazine.  The typical drone user buys their outfit from a mail-order or other source not connected with the model aircraft hobby.  They go their own way not knowing anything about how the AMA and their magazine is eagerly promoting drones, in hopes of increasing AMA membership.

The AMA might see the sudden popularity of drones as somehow beneficial to their interests.  In reality, there is little, if any, connection between drone users and the AMA.

I expect to see an independent publisher introduce a new magazine devoted only to drones, and sold on newsstands.  Then, the AMA might realize that their own drone-affectation is being ignored by the very people they want to attract (that is, those with no craft skills but with lots of spare money).
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2017, 09:45:45 AM »
Actually, quad copter racing is about the only RC event, besides a bit of sport flying that I'd consider trying.  Met a couple of younger guys locally and watched them do it, and some video.  Doing it FPV looks like fun.  Rather difficult, requires precision flying, close quarters stuff, not too many rules, and a clear winner(s), and not too expensive.

    Don't misunderstand the other comments - I don't think anyone begrudges the responsible use or users of drones/quadcopters. It's much like R/C - there is a percentage of RC guys that compete, develop, do model aviation just like we do. There is some fraction of RC sport fliers who still operate that way, too. They are competent, knowledgeable and responsible. But the vast majority are RC "consumers" - buy one ARF or RTF trainer after another, crash it, move on to something else pretty quickly. They are almost uniformly ignorant and irresponsible, and know nothing about model aviation and have no commitment at all. Some of them join AMA because they have to in order to fly at a club field (that the first group developed and operate), but they see the AMA as a source of consumer advertising, and ignore the separate section at the back about all these stodgy old fat men talking about bylaws, etc.

   Same thing with drone people, except that they don't have to bother with AMA, they buy the thing, charge it up, and go to the back yard or the park, and start crashing it into things. Maybe they get pretty good at it, and with the vast automation, start getting "neat shots" with them, like at airports, Kim Kardashian's wedding (or divorce, or whatever ignorant and immoral bullshit they are doing this week). Of course they get caught somehow, hence the almost daily "drone crashes into white house" stories.

     This latter group *is going to cause regulation*, period, end of discussion. People HATE them, they are despised by the general public. That was never going to be avoided, and it was perfectly clear that it was not going to be avoided long ago. It is a metaphysical certitude, and cannot be averted.

     How can the first group - which is not a problem - be separated from the second when the AMA is going out of it's way to blur the lines of distinction? If you draw a distinction, you can use the historic carve-outs for model aviation to insulate the people who are not the cause of the issue from the second, which is going to get regulated no matter what.   That is the correct path to take - make clear distinctions between the responsible AMA-policed activity, and the buy-and-fly rogues. Use the existing laws to make sure the AMA is the "community-based organization" mentioned in the special rule for model aircraft, they embrace the responsible operators, the AMA remains the 800-lb gorilla and the gatekeepers (which they have defended with 6+ years of legal wrangling in the past). Works for AMA, they might double the membership, reduce the insurance risk pool, we get protected at the same time.

    But what they appear to have decided to do is call them all the one thing, and make no distinction whatsoever. That puts us all in the same boat with the buy-and-fly idiots, and subject to the same draconian regulation that is certain to happen. Of course, they will regulate that there must be "geofencing" and other items that cannot be implemented in conventional aircraft, because no one including the AMA is even willing to ask about FF and CL. That was blatantly clear when I asked about it, they didn't want to start trying to make a distinction between various types of models because it would "confuse the issue". So, eveyone/anyone tell me, what make and version of geofencing firmware is used to keep your Twister from straying into the path of Air Force One? What do you mean, you don't use geofencing firmware, that's a legal requirement?  Oops, accidental end of FF and CL, but boy howdy, you can get a drone down at Wal-Mart for $75.

    I would also remind everyone that NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING in any FAA document, "guidelines for law enforcement", anything, mentions or exempts CL and FF from any of this. The AMA asserts that it was not the intent of the rule to regulate CL, but that assertion is apparently backed by absolutely nothing (as the AMA admits) in any legal document. If local law enforcement gets a complaint, they will pull out the "FAA guide to drone regulation for law enforcement", it's more than 5.5 ounces and it goes into they air," you are finished and all the appeals along the lines of "the AMA says that wasn't the intent" will be worth exactly jack @#$%. In fact it also mentions that "tethered drones" (which actually means quadcopters with trailing wires instead of radio) are not exempted. Of course, that means that all your protestations that you are tied to the surface of a sphere does't help you.


     That's why it is a mortal threat to model aviation, and why the AMA's tack on this is so fundamentally flawed. At best, they are going to try to get RC airplanes a break, but don't wait around for or expect that they will make any other distinctions or even care whether or not CL dies due to unachievable requirements due to a misunderstanding.

     Brett

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: GREAT issue of model aviation (doesn't deserve upper case)
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
My Lord, I hate to seem like a Brett Buck groupie, but the more he expounds on things, the more I wish I had the education to communicate better

Ok ---the seemingly kiss ass---

Very well said Brett!

While I do not hide from my enthusiasm with the new technology, and the fun I personally have with the new toys.  I have to agree with all of Bret's assertions, observations, and conclusions

Stated elsewhere; I do not really fear the actual product "DRONE"--- but I am sincerely concerned about a LOT of the follow on problems....for MOST other Model Aviation Hobbyists

Back when we discussed DOT-FCC license for only $5 -----I was (1) one of ONLY 450+/-  folks with a opinion

So a few years later here we are....

AMA abdicating THEIR OWN charter ---written and implied mission statement--- to cow tow to $$$$ advertising interests in the misguided attempt to gain MORE membership...

Trying to seem to entice a group that is not highly motivated to join...

(AMA) KNOWING full well this angers a LOT of the core membership ----who like me ----seriously consider NOT re-enlisting

And because I do send off the occasional note to my District rep and the AMA Butt heads... They cannot claim ignorance...

100% of the responses to my communication attempts--- seems to imply ----I am a dinosaur, and out of touch with reality

so I am still fugged

I think we NEED the NATs...do not like the way it is ...prefer rotation venues
I Know we need USA presence at the International venues
I doubt the insurance is really a needed reason to join...seems to me my very good (IMO) USAA home owners will cover ME very well ---so I do not loose my ass ----if I kill a spectator or car in the parking lot

I wonder some days if Bill Gates was passionate about Carrier, Combat, Racing, or Stunt flying if we would even need to have these troubling discussions

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV


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