stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Robert Zambelli on April 01, 2017, 10:38:17 AM
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Cover story - DRONE RACING.
Straight into the trash.
I really hate that rag.
Bob Z.
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Ditto, same result.
Wayne
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I really hate that rag.
Bob Z.
Maybe rap?
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If they would place MA into hobby shops or newsstands, they might sell a bunch of copies with drones on the cover.
(RCM tried bikini-girls on their covers, but I don't think it helped sell magazines)
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Cover story - DRONE RACING.
Straight into the trash.
I really hate that rag.
Bob Z.
Well, you guys missed a couple articles on CL! y1
To bad you are so prejudice against (I won't say the "D" word) the future! ~^
Jerry
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I haven't got my issue yet, but like this forum and others if there is something I don't like, I skip over it. Seen a few CL pics and stuff in between the rotor craft toys.
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Remember when the AMA promoted model airplanes? When the card was a COMPETITION license? Remember when they published National Records?
Recently, they've become Drone Pimps....chasing the almighty dollar.
Can't speak for anyone else, but on 12/31/17, I'm done with them --- since 1952.
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Advertising sales always drives content. Not just Model Aviation, but your local newspaper, TV and radio.
The mag is loaded with RTF electric RC junk and thus the content also.
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Academy of Multirotor Aeronautics.
Advertising to the least likely people to be members and receive the magazine.
Genius.
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If you just tossed it you missed the blurb on a control line multi rotor and how the drone guys found out how much fun control line is.
Also a pretty good column on carrier.
The Rubber band guys complained the gas engines would ruin model aviation
the free flight guys complained that control line would ruin model aviation
the control line guys complained that RC would ruin model aviation.
And now due to low cost electronics, we have everyone up in arms over drones.
History repeats.
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Remember when the AMA promoted model airplanes? When the card was a COMPETITION license? Remember when they published National Records?
Recently, they've become Drone Pimps....chasing the almighty dollar.
Can't speak for anyone else, but on 12/31/17, I'm done with them --- since 1952.
Mike very well said but how could you state that? After all, according to an ama president, drones are the future of model aviation.
In my opinion, the most idiotic comment I've ever read in a model aircraft magazine.
Bob Z.
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The 2-page ad from Harbor Freight saved the day for MA.
Let's have more of this! Useful.
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The Rubber band guys complained the gas engines would ruin model aviation
the free flight guys complained that control line would ruin model aviation
the control line guys complained that RC would ruin model aviation.
And now due to low cost electronics, we have everyone up in arms over drones.
Yes, agreed - BUT, notice the common statement in the first three sentences: MODEL AVIATION.
These sentences all pertained to progress and advances regarding MODEL AIRPLANES.
Model airplanes have not progressed to becoming drones.
Drones ARE NOT model airplanes.
They do not fly.
They do not go through the air on lift generated by forward velocity and airfoiled wings.
They are computerized toys.
They do not come about through hard work and building skills.
When you show up at the field with a beautiful plane that you built, you can proudly state as much.
With a drone, you can say "Look what I bought".
My two cents.
Bob Z.
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So true, Bob Z. I couldn't say it better. Also when are they going to realize that some drones have wings.
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I was set back a little when I got my issue of MA and saw the cover, but I have come to accept where we are in this hobby.
Way back in the late sixties and early seventies, I would throw my "two cents" in every once in a while..."You know, when someone comes up with a real cool, ready to fly out of the box, RC model, it would take off like a rocket." "No way...never happen!" I would hear. Fast forward...How about a ready to fly, competitive, full blown, C/L stunt ship? "No way...never happen!" Now look at where we are. I don't have and overwhelming problem with R/C or C/L ARF's, (I've owned a couple) I don't have any real issues with the Drones and "Quads," other than safety and trespassing problems. But what I do have a BIG problem with, is the guy that shows up at the field with a "high dollar," ARF (R/C) bragging about how he "built" it and all of the other ARF owners standing around with all of the "eww's and aah's." GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
Norm
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I get where Bob Z and others are coming from but there are always exceptions
I has a bit taken back and shocked years ago when I bought my boy and myself a RC 10 electric RC race car to find a 513 part kit we had to figure out, build, and train all about RC car racing, battery maintenance, shock oils, gear ratios, motor winding specs, Electronic Throttle (ESC), servo torque, steering ratios, and on and on.... later RTR cars actually were a great way for pop and son to play in the yard or local track
So I build a 50 to 75 piece balsa Ring Master /Nobler kit ----or buy a Brodak / Top flight ARF and I tend to feel the same way when I fly each of them
I am cogent that the most recent winner of the National Drone Racing League Father and son team actually built their own racing quad copters, self taught each to fly, and formed a team to compete up through local, regional and the Nats.... I know this 16 year old kid will have a great future for the experience
Like all others here, I have serious concerns about the mischief DRONES can cause... but as a hobby... Boy am I impressed with a lot of the technology and capability
Build a kit
Hack a ready to fly
Charge batts and fly a BNF
Fun is fun and I will not be sucked into looking down my nose ant ANY of the methods of spending money
and filling free time
BOM...real airplane...
Modeling effort and skill required...
yes sir all that is there---
just as it is with a Walker Fire baby
or Cox PT 19
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I too found the cover...troubling. I really don't see the drone market as where AMA should be. As for the magazine, I still look for information there, but it gets a very small part of my time and attention. Sometimes just a handful of minutes. I'm 71 now, and much of my life and things I have dedicated myself to are passing or gone. Time left is too short for me to do much but support what I believe in and keep engaged in my interests. AMA is just a peripheral thing for me now. - SK
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I'm really glad I didn't subject myself to seeing that MA cover, my stomach churns even thinking about it. I haven't been an AMA member for over a year now, I don't miss the MA rag one bit. "The Future" as proclaimed by AMA President Brownhole was what finally put me over the edge. It's all still a sore spot with me and probably always will be.
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I too found the cover...troubling. I really don't see the drone market as where AMA should be. As for the magazine, I still look for information there, but it gets a very small part of my time and attention. Sometimes just a handful of minutes. I'm 71 now, and much of my life and things I have dedicated myself to are passing or gone. Time left is too short for me to do much but support what I believe in and keep engaged in my interests. AMA is just a periphery thing for me now. - SK
Serge you said this so well and got inside of my head when you wrote it. I dropped my AMA membership two years ago and I am finding myself less and less involved in the hobby as a whole. The last three models I built. I struggled to finish because other priorities took precedence. I have not even flown them and really have no burning desire to go do so. I quit flying contests years ago because of back and neck issues and I find myself going to the field less and less. I have honestly had thoughts of just selling all of my CL possessions and giving the built planes away to someone who would fly them. I still enjoy building but find myself doing it less and less. Admittedly I have put a lot of my spare time into flying with the Civil Air Patrol which I have a passion for.
I had always felt that making it mandatory to belong to AMA in order to fly in a contest was equivalent to being blackmailed and it went totally against my grain. It wasn't the money, it was the principle. I just build and fly now when I get in the mood and I find that becoming more rare.
Anyway, I started to ramble. Just wanted you to know that you struck a chord with me with your post.
Mike
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Hi All, Back on January 1st, 2017, I was lucky to be invited to fly with my Free Flight Club at their field on a not too distant resurfaced land fill! I thought that I would have been able to put up a few patterns! I did get to fly one electric powered Stunt plane and I was amazed at how well it flew for me the very first time ever I flew it. But NO PHIL YOU can't fly that noisy plane here it's too close to those houses! Go down over the hill to the Soccer fields you can fly down there!
I left and retreated to the Soccer fields and flew alone. Not as much fun as being with the group but fun for me nevertheless! While flying another person arrived and went over to one of the rear fields and attempted to fly. He was there all the time I flew but never did get what ever it was he'd had up! As I was performing my last pattern the young man walked by and just watched my plane doing it's thing! I landed and waved to him. He walked over toward me and said,"Man that's the coolest thing I've ever seen!" I replied that's Control Line Stunt! It's been around for many years but has suffered from declining places to fly! He replied My drone's batteries all failed! I'll have to recharge everything. I said would you like to try Control Line? His reply I have too many other interests!
I got my newest issue of MA last night, our mail service arrives anywhere from 6:30 to 10:00 pm, if at all! Brought that worthless piece in finished supper and began to look through it. In 20min. I was done and the book went to the recycle box!
If I didn't have to belong so that I could fly in 3 Contests per year or so, I'd quit like others have noted herein!
Phil Spillman
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Isn't the magazine called Model AVIATION?
I went to a major drone (actually an FPV) race in Sebring and enjoyed the Hell out of it....they are VERY fast, and the winners engineer and assemble them from a pile of hi tech parts...
They also flew some fixed wing FPV races, and quite a few of those were built by the flier.
Remember that there are no FotoMats around any more....things evolve.
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Isn't the magazine called Model AVIATION?
I went to a major drone (actually an FPV) race in Sebring and enjoyed the Hell out of it....they are VERY fast, and the winners engineer and assemble them from a pile of hi tech parts...
They also flew some fixed wing FPV races, and quite a few of those were built by the flier.
Remember that there are no FotoMats around any more....things evolve.
If it wasn't for ARF's, Drones, and Cars, my LHS would not be in business.
Owned by really nice people who I would like to see stay in business.
CB
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I had always felt that making it mandatory to belong to AMA in order to fly in a contest was equivalent to being blackmailed and it went totally against my grain. It wasn't the money, it was the principle.
Mike
Mike, I don't feel that's a legitimate argument. The AMA is the sanctioning body for the contests. they create and publish the rules we follow.
Same thing if I want to shoot competitively. The NRA is the sanctioning body so I have to be an NRA member to compete.
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If it wasn't for ARF's, Drones, and Cars, my LHS would not be in business.
Owned by really nice people who I would like to see stay in business.
CB
I think you are missing the point. No one that I know actually begrudges the existence of use or sales of RC Cars, drones, etc. (as long as it is responsible). What they do object to is exactly what was stated - why is the AMA actively promoting it? I think model railroading and contract bridge are swell hobbies. Does that mean that a model airplane service organization should be filled wall-to-wall with model railroad ads and bridge bidding strategies? Should we have reports on the Slot Car nationals, or Frisbee golf, too, just because people like that, too?
What do you suppose all those drone and other ads, even model airplane ads, do for your local hobby shop? Virtually all of the ads are for items that list a website where you can buy the stuff. It might or might not say, in tiny print somewhere, "see your local hobby dealer", but at the bottom of the page in 36 point type, www.apeshitfordrones.com This was a HUGE problem for decades before drones - the reason that there are no local hobby shops is at least in large part due to the existence of mail order/online hobby supply houses, where Tower/Great Planes has been working towards a monopoly for the last 40 years. Why buy it at J&M Hobby House (one of the last "old-line" hobby shops left) where you have to pay a premium for the unspeakable overhead costs of running a brick and mortar hobby shop when you can get it in two days for half price at Tower?
The AMA has been 100% in bed with these guys for years. The AMA is a "not for profit" service organization, not a for-profit publishing house. The AMA is operating in lockstep with the same people that are putting local hobby shops (and maybe more importantly, the regional hobby distributer services) out of business, to the point you can't tell the difference. They justify it by "offsetting the costs" but the effect has been devastating.
Brett
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Mike, I don't feel that's a legitimate argument. The AMA is the sanctioning body for the contests. they create and publish the rules we follow.
Same thing if I want to shoot competitively. The NRA is the sanctioning body so I have to be an NRA member to compete.
Hi Bill
I have been a member of NRA as long as I can remember. Big difference between them and AMA. One has to do with the second amendment and is directly tied to our freedom as citizens of the United States , the other has to do with toy airplanes.
This is just my opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to theirs.
Mike
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why is the AMA actively promoting it?
Brett,
I understand what you wrote all to well.
But they, the AMA, are going after the money in membership fees and ad fees.
A million of these things will be sold in 2017, possibly more.
I said this once before, maybe a few times.
Can you believe even Home Depot cashed in and had a bunch of drones. They sold like hot cakes.
I have absolutely no interest in drones and I certainly have issues with the AMA giving drones front row seats instead of model airplanes.
I have issues, as you do, with everything you mentioned.
I don't have the answers.
We, collectively as modelers, no matter what level we are at, have to promote this hobby/sport "ourselves."
I always said we can start by getting along.
Been saying this for over five years. Why do you think I never had a negative attitude towards the hobby or had negativity, as best I could, with Forum members? I contribute only to promote the hobby.
I do know, even though I pay more, if my LHS has it or if they can order it, I buy there.
CB
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Hi Bill
I have been a member of NRA as long as I can remember. Big difference between them and AMA. One has to do with the second amendment and is directly tied to our freedom as citizens of the United States , the other has to do with toy airplanes.
This is just my opinion and everyone is certainly entitled to theirs.
Mike
Off topic but that's and apples & oranges argument. If you want to compete in an AMA sanctioned event.....
Following your logic, I could also argue that the AMA is the largest organization fighting to ensure we have a voice in federal regulations concerning the use of air space. But that's a different line of reasoning.
BTW, the NRA spends about 23% of it's income on employee salaries. $55,000,000.00 on salaries. 25% or $57,000,000.00 on membership "outreach" (read mailings). That same year, 2010, they spent just $2,650,000. on lobbying to preserve our 2nd Amendment rights. I don't have any stats on the AMA but they are typical of just about every organization out there. Their biggest concern is raising money.
With the rise of the internet, web-based businesses have a huge advantage over the mom & pop bricks & mortar businesses and are able to afford advertising that run page after page and they are going to advertise their biggest profit makers which are the drones now. As far as I'm concerned, they are recognized by the AMA as a legitimate form of flying model. We can bitch and complain all we want but in the end, it would be like the guys who shoot nothing but bolt rifles complaining about the "spray & pray" crowd with their AR15s. Do nothing to support them and, in the end, once those are banned, who's next on the list?
As Benjamin Franklin put it so succinctly over 250 years ago "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately"
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I wonder how many of these people that are purchasing the so called drones even know about the AMA. I remember kits used to have a slip of paper telling about the AMA.
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Gentlemen, let me take that from my chest! I think of that everytime I receive a model airplane magazine. What a waste, just garbage. But the true is that, in my opinion, kids do not have time after all school homeworks, to have "hobbies". Their spare time are used on Netflix or computer games. If someone starts in the hobby at adult age, probably will start with a ready to fly plastic toy, and if he really wants to continue, will try an ARF because it is what is available mostly. It is sad, but is the true, unfortunately. I am a builder (maybe an addicted one!) and started when I was 12, in the fifties, building my own toys, but I had many friends doing the same at that time. Today in the club I do not have who to talk about building, but I can see many seniors at training nights trying to solo with their plastic BNF toys. Now those drones everywhere. Whew! What a relief! My 2 cents also!
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I just got my copy and there is always some article that I have absolutely no interest in and the drone article is one of them. But if you look at what else was published and I always find something worth reading. Some of the topics in the columns and articles have some application towards CL modeling
1) CL navy carrier talking about the Spitfire ARF conversion
2) CL scale talking about how to prepare for the nationals
3) Bearcat construction article...it might be advertised as RC project but it can be converted to CL
4) DeHavilland Beaver article - Talks about how to take an ARF and dress it up with scale details
5) I look thru the ads and try to figure out what technology I can rob and steal for CL scale even though they never intended for it to be used for CL!
I didn't see any CL models in the focal point section but that is because probably nobody submit any material for them to publish. heck even my Fox 35 speed racer was published several months ago.
Fred
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This subject comes up regularly on here and the arguments both pro and con never change.
Mike
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Check out page 8 in the latest issue. Headline says that our "Industry" is in bad shape and hen askes us to come up ith ideas on how to save it. Interesting but weird.
Joe
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I think you are missing the point. No one that I know actually begrudges the existence of use or sales of RC Cars, drones, etc. (as long as it is responsible). What they do object to is exactly what was stated - why is the AMA actively promoting it? I think model railroading and contract bridge are swell hobbies. Does that mean that a model airplane service organization should be filled wall-to-wall with model railroad ads and bridge bidding strategies? Should we have reports on the Slot Car nationals, or Frisbee golf, too, just because people like that, too?
What do you suppose all those drone and other ads, even model airplane ads, do for your local hobby shop? Virtually all of the ads are for items that list a website where you can buy the stuff. It might or might not say, in tiny print somewhere, "see your local hobby dealer", but at the bottom of the page in 36 point type, www.apeshitfordrones.com This was a HUGE problem for decades before drones - the reason that there are no local hobby shops is at least in large part due to the existence of mail order/online hobby supply houses, where Tower/Great Planes has been working towards a monopoly for the last 40 years. Why buy it at J&M Hobby House (one of the last "old-line" hobby shops left) where you have to pay a premium for the unspeakable overhead costs of running a brick and mortar hobby shop when you can get it in two days for half price at Tower?
The AMA has been 100% in bed with these guys for years. The AMA is a "not for profit" service organization, not a for-profit publishing house. The AMA is operating in lockstep with the same people that are putting local hobby shops (and maybe more importantly, the regional hobby distributer services) out of business, to the point you can't tell the difference. They justify it by "offsetting the costs" but the effect has been devastating.
Brett
One of the best explanations on this subject to date. y1
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Check out page 8 in the latest issue. Headline says that our "Industry" is in bad shape and hen askes us to come up ith ideas on how to save it. Interesting but weird.
Joe
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Is he so brain-dead that he can't see that pandering to the drone crowd is destroying model aviation as we knew it?
Granted, drones are awfully popular with thousands of people. That being said, those are NOT MODEL AIRPLANES....nor are their adherents MODELERS.
The AMA (Academy of Multirotors & ARFs) has outlived its usefulness. They no longer represent MODEL AIRPLANE builders and flyers. It's patently ludicrous to continue believing we need their "sanction" in order to conduct contests and (yes) "Fun Flys". We keep hearing about their "insurance"...which most know is secondary, after our homeowner's insurance.
In short, why should I continue paying $65 per year (Senior rate) to receive a publication that glorifies drones and imported foam toys?
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Isn't the magazine called Model AVIATION?
I went to a major drone (actually an FPV) race in Sebring and enjoyed the Hell out of it....they are VERY fast, and the winners engineer and assemble them from a pile of hi tech parts...
They also flew some fixed wing FPV races, and quite a few of those were built by the flier.
Remember that there are no FotoMats around any more....things evolve.
What a crock.
Yes, it's model aviation - you know, things that fly.
So, why not go the whole f*****g route?
Let model aviation start featuring articles on these? After all, they fly.
https://www.wish.com/c/57eb922a3022a61c69607764?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=pla4&_display_country_code=US&gclid=Cj0KEQjwiI3HBRDv0q_qhqXZ-N4BEiQAOTiCHmh4sgw5DIZmFQyUEgkqMXL7zeKmSj-MU72D9T4CPGoaAsA18P8HAQ
I really don't give a rat's ass whether or not drones fly.
They're NOT model airplanes.
If you want to include everything that flies, where do we draw the line?
Give coverage to the guys with the most money?
Should we go with toy blimps and kites too?
If this junk is the future of model aviation, just think where our sport will be in twenty years. DEAD.
I'm about done with the ama anyhow.
It's a shame that we have to join the enter contests knowing that a portion of our dues goes to that worthless rag.
My rant for the day.
Bob Z.
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If getting MA in the mail is a problem get the digital copy. I'm guessing you go to the AMA website to read it...well for the last three years I've never gone to the web site...Problem Solved !!!
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If getting MA in the mail is a problem get the digital copy. I'm guessing you go to the AMA website to read it...well for the last three years I've never gone to the web site...Problem Solved !!!
For the last three years I've had my MA sent to someone else....Problem Solved!
CB
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"I'm about done with the ama anyhow.
It's a shame that we have to join the enter contests knowing that a portion of our dues goes to that worthless rag."
I would wager, Bob, that the "worthless rag" keeps the annual membership costs down.
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[quote , Bob, that the "worthless rag" keeps the annual membership costs down.
Then why do membership fees keep climbing?
Joe
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[quote , Bob, that the "worthless rag" keeps the annual membership costs down.
Then why do membership fees keep climbing?
Joe
Because the AMA keeps on raising them!!
IOW....because they can....
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I love flying my drone and have plans to build one too. DRONE SMILE is what you get when you fly one! ;D
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If control line had kept doing what they did years ago with regional meets to qualify for the NATS with big money prizes, you think CL would be in the shape it is? How many remember the Air Youth State Champ thing. Also if we could have moved CL around the country every so often. VD~
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The AMA is between a rock and a hard place..
They are struggling with relevancy with a group that has grown unbelievably fast and shows no signs of slowing down.
At the same time the more traditional forms of model aviation are declining for a whole number of reasons.
I'm not a drone flyer.. I fly control line with IC engines..
What follows you all already know perhaps..
Drones have captured the imagination and attention of the age group that would have in past decades been interested in C/L or R/C or F/F, but not just that segment.. Older former R/C, FF and C/L flyers are getting involved too.
Technology has advanced where you don't need a lot of space away from populated areas to fly something. And drones are now cheap enough and capable enough for just about any segment of the population to operate them.
And if you have visited any of their forums, there is in many of them the attitude of "Who is the AMA and why should I care? I don't need them to fly my drone."
The younger ones see us as a bunch of old farts who do not keep up with the times. And there is some truth there, but not for the reasons they assume.
(I just happen to like flying control line, and nothing against electric, I'm like that guy who rides a Harley.. I just like fiddling with the IC engines/motors.)
Only in a few drone forums is there discussion of the insurance that AMA provides and how it can open up new places to fly..
Other than that most seem not to care about the AMA, or the other forms of model aviation. Drones (particularly with FPV) do all they want and therefore many (most?) perhaps don't see relevancy in anything else.
Drones also, as you know, have captured Governmental and media attention. You also know that most Bureaucrats/News casters/etc do not see any significant difference between a drone with a camera spying on the neighbor and a control line aerobatics plane. To them it is all the same. (Perhaps the distinction requires more thought than they are capable of?)
The uninformed public just hears the horror stories and the noise and lumps us all together.. (Perhaps because they let bureaucrats and the media do their thinking for them?)
AMA has to figure out some way to pull drone fliers "into the fold" so to speak and keep membership up because this same group of folks (drone fliers) are in a position where they can ruin it for all of us.
See: http://droneidiots.com/
At the same time, if AMA membership declines enough we will have little/no clout with law makers who can/will shut us down completely.
BTW, there is an ordinance in my town which prohibits ALL model aircraft flying within city limits (from way back in the 1960s, I've heard). I used to fly FF also.. but there is no place within at least a two hour drive to fly those now, so all of my stuff just sits there.
Someone recently told me that Kaz Minato is considering moving to the US because Japan has just shut things down completely over there due to drones.. (Is this really true?)
Like you all, I flipped through the mag and saw it was drone dominated. I read Bob Hunt's article about Radio Control Control Line. It shows Bob flying his Electric Second Wind (with retracts). It was an informative and well written article - and it shows us where top level competitive stunt is heading. and many thanks to Bob for all he is doing to push our sport/hobby forward - but aside from that article, not much else in the magazine got anything other than a cursory glance and then after that I threw it in the recycling bin.
But folks, these are the times we are living in and times are changing.
I'll keep supporting the AMA and deal with the drone content because at least for the time being, it keeps me able to fly my smelly, greasy, noisy control line Harley-Davidson powered stunt planes.
When they take that away from me, I'll donate all of my IC engines to a museum and fly electric unless that is outlawed also..
In which case perhaps I'll take up indoor with microfilm..
Or paper airplanes..
Just my 3 or 4 c.
Mark
Addendum (In case you missed the above)
This is why I will keep supporting the AMA.. Even if MA becomes entirely devoted to quadcopters
http://www.modelaircraft.org/oklahoma.aspx
http://salsa4.salsalabs.com/o/51579/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=21244
Right now, we need to realize that we need drone fliers in our camp. We need to embrace variations of this hobby and pull them into the fold in order to protect our common interests and promote responsible operation.
Years ago there were ads in MA for renewal that said "Strength in numbers." That is still the case. The AMA is the only organization that has the clout right now to help fight these legislative battles.
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See above.
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This is why I will keep supporting the AMA.. Even if MA becomes entirely devoted to quadcopters . . .
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Than you need to join a different organization. Quadcopters are NOT model airplanes!!!
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Years ago there were ads in MA for renewal that said "Strength in numbers." That is still the case. The AMA is the only organization that has the clout right now to help fight these legislative battles.
In this case, however, they don't seem to be bothering to fight at all, while at the same time tying an albatross around everyones' neck. People in general HATE drones and quadcopters and see them as an annoyance and/or dangerous. Drone idiots keep flying into people's back yards, invading privacy, and crashing on other people's property, Damn near every day, you hear of some other idiot doing something irresponsible with them. The public has HAD IT with this crap, drones are going to be heavily regulated and restricted.
None of this was true about model aviation as we have defined it, for 100ish years no one cared what we did. Now, since the AMA has decided to adopt them and absolutely and utterly refuses to draw any distinction between responsible model airplane people and the swamp of utterly irresponsible quadcopter idiots, we are all going to get sucked into this, whether it is deserved or not. You could see it coming 3-4 years ago and now the time is near.
Drones/Quadcopters are the first genuinely mortal threat to model aviation. Even 9/11 and/or demonstrating autonomous navigation all the way across the Atlantic ocean wasn't sufficient to cause a real threat. Drones/quadcopters ARE such a threat, and the AMA is chaining us to the irrevocably.
Brett
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If control line had kept doing what they did years ago with regional meets to qualify for the NATS with big money prizes, you think CL would be in the shape it is? How many remember the Air Youth State Champ thing. Also if we could have moved CL around the country every so often. VD~
No, I don't remember that but I do recall my 84 year old father telling me about it, John!
Chris...
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I think Brett has summed it up accurately. Nobody cared what the model airplane guys did until drones showed up.
But, the drones are here to stay, like 'em or not. At first I thought they would be a passing fad. Well, for some, they were. They were a nice Christmas gift but when the "newness" wore off they ended up on a shelf in the closet.
Others, however, have taken to them. I was at our field yesterday and noticed more brush removed from the north end of the site, several yards outside the north end of our circle. I also saw some colored poles. I asked one of the RC guys what that was all about. He told me it was a drone "racetrack" under construction.
So far, we all get along at this site. We help each other with field maintenance and we stay out of the other's way when flying. Now, with the drones so close to our circle, I have some doubt.
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While I agree and respect Brett Buck's and several other's thoughts on this subject
I find myself in a quandary:
I do NOT now personally NEED AMA insurance
BUT I do accept the NEED for Clubs, fun fly's, and sanctioned competitions to have members and contestants insured by the AMA
I am also cogent that LOBBYING Congress is a necessary evil
I am much more distressed about loosing Control Line World last year.... than if I woke up tomorrow to find Model Aviation was no more
I only FEAR drones from the potential EVIL aspect...I am totally jazzed about their potential in a lot of areas....including getting me a Piping Hot Pizza in less than 30 min.....
I am in utter awe at the fast pace of the newer technology--- and I personally have a lot of leisure time fun with a lot of it
I also applaud the various entities in my local world who use and exploit drones...saving lives, counting feral hogs/deer populations/land use/water acreage, inspecting power lines etc etc... usually saving we/me money
I am mostly a motor head...and do have a great respect for tradition
I prefer ANY thing hobby related that is a MODEL of some real world Bigger craft...car, boat, glider, airplane, helicopter what ever
I see a broad blurr in the notion of MODEL Aviation...some of you are dead set that the Model Aviation definition is strictly fixed wing...coming from an "in awe of Sikorsky's engineering" background..I find that a tad narrow minded
Some few of us love, admire, and prefer total Nostalgia old school spark or diesel ignition craft built from stick and planks cut from WWII life raft balsa, adhered with rendered down toot brush cellulose or Horse hoofs, covered with hand woven worm spunk...thinking that: ANY thing; with nylon, polyester, or carbon fiber, stuck together with a high tech Poly something glue is an Abomination
But dear gents I do get it.... AMA has hitched to the wrong horse ---if only from the perspective that MODEL BUILDING is certainly no longer main stream--- and in the long haul that is NOT good for USA future engineers, tinkerers, and innovators
I can absolutely trace a LOT of my employment success to the early lessons my Dad and the Modelling community taught me ---and more importantly the curiosity that was sparked to learn HOW THINGS Work and WHY
Years ago I would donned an Asbestos suit...today I know better... and the Kevlar and Nomex flight suit is zipped up awaiting your wrath
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If it wasn't for ARF's, Drones, and Cars, my LHS would not be in business.
Owned by really nice people who I would like to see stay in business.
CB
Jay Smith, chief editor of MA, had a telling article in this issue about the general demise of the industry. Many LHS have gone by the wayside, fewer and fewer vendors are frequenting the trade shows, events are down as is attendance. Even the glow engine manufacturers are trimming their product lines as electrics dominate more and more.
I've always tried to support my LHS but they never seem to have the prop I need that day in stock. There is a small shelf of dope which has dated labels from 8 or 9 years ago and lids caked with dust. CL is becoming a specialized SIG where you have to order everything from the few cottage manufacturers who bother to build the stuff. The kids at the LHS are stunned to learn people still fly CL.
Even RC, I haven't seen a kit stocked at a LHS in years. Everything is ARF. You can't build and cover a kit for what you can get an ARF for nowadays.
I'm also guilty as the RC foam micros with stability gyros are actually a hoot to fly. Fortunately, I'm not into quads yet.
There is still plenty of innovation taking place. Go to www.flitetest.com and see what these 'kids' are doing with cheap foam board, hot glue and razor knives. Utterly amazing.
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This is why I will keep supporting the AMA.. Even if MA becomes entirely devoted to quadcopters
http://www.modelaircraft.org/oklahoma.aspx
http://salsa4.salsalabs.com/o/51579/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=21244
Right now, we need to realize that we need drone fliers in our camp. We need to embrace variations of this hobby and pull them into the fold in order to protect our common interests and promote responsible operation.
Years ago there were ads in MA for renewal that said "Strength in numbers." That is still the case. The AMA is the only organization that has the clout right now to help fight these legislative battles.
Absolutely clueless statements above, entirely missing the core issues that us long time aero modelers have been concerned with about the drone movement. For one, I'd be willing to bet that less than .01% of drone owners are AMA members, or even know what the AMA is.
It continues to amaze me that so many people can't immediately recognize the damage that the drone movement has and will continue to do to Model Aviation as we've known it, like Brett points out, for nearly 100 years. It's just another example that proves my theory that I've had for quite some time now, that the general society "sheep" in this country become more ignorant and grow in numbers every day. HB~>
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I've thought about this a lot.
My issue with the AMA isn't that they want to include multirotors, it's that they've adopted an "all-in" strategy for them while seemingly distancing themselves from the core membership.
If the AMA wants to include MR's as a SIG I'm fine with that. Maybe then they'll realize there are more free flight an CL people in the AMA than MR pilots.
I think the AMA has made two huge mistakes in it's years. First was to move the Nat's to a home field and not have it move around the country. Second is the way they've adopted MRs as the future when all I see tells me we should be differentiating ourselves from them so as not to be grouped in with them.
MR's are not consistent with model aircraft and they can't be operated together. A drone doesn't require a maintained runway or circle, yet at my field they seem to be compelled to hover over the middle of the runway while the operator looks at a screen instead of what's going on around him. Nothing like shooting a landing with your 20 pound, $2000 airplane while a drone is zipping up and down the flight line taking movies. Or doing an overhead eight and seeing a drone coming at you.
To date, at our field, nobody has actually had a multirotor shoved up his A$$, but the subject has been discussed.
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They are computerized toys.
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BINGO! :(
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...Their spare time are used on Netflix or computer games. If someone starts in the hobby at adult age, probably will start with a ready to fly plastic toy, and if he really wants to continue, will try an ARF because it is what is available mostly. ...
This is why an RC ARF (last year) and a Drone (this year) are such a hit: they are little different from a computer game. Go buy it, play with the new toy for awhile, become bored or wreck it, go on to the next hot toy.
It is NOT Model AVIATION!
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This is why an RC ARF (last year) and a Drone (this year) are such a hit: they are little different from a computer game. Go buy it, play with the new toy for awhile, become bored or wreck it, go on to the next hot toy.
It is NOT Model AVIATION!
Exactly. The same approach - buy-and-fly - selects for people with only casual interest who will quickly become bored with it, then move on. That's not going to create a sustainable core group.
Brett
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As many times as I try to be the odd man out === and try to defend the newer technology ====because I find it fascinating
I have to agree with Brett and friends
AMA has lost the rudder and is chasing $$$$ to the determent of the core values
I am still in the quandary...re-enlist (zero benefit to me) or write the AMA off as a lost group of imbeciles
I no longer need the insurance... BUT do suspect THEY (AMA) are the only advocate lobbying for Hobby Model Aviation
HELL-- damn IT ---will one of you fugging millionaires PLEASE form an alternative entity
I know right this moment if I (can't win if you don't enter) won the 100 million Power ball... How I would use a large portion to promote and defend the Model Airplane hobby
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Actually, quad copter racing is about the only RC event, besides a bit of sport flying that I'd consider trying. Met a couple of younger guys locally and watched them do it, and some video. Doing it FPV looks like fun. Rather difficult, requires precision flying, close quarters stuff, not too many rules, and a clear winner(s), and not too expensive.
They're both doing it under the aegis of local RC clubs, safely and non-intrusively.
Phil C
ps- besides, I wouldn't need better glasses.
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I have to agree with Brett and friends
AMA has lost the rudder and is chasing $$$$ to the determent of the core values
I no longer need the insurance... BUT do suspect THEY (AMA) are the only advocate lobbying for Hobby Model Aviation
Ok, here it is...
The ONLY thing that the AMA is an advocate for anymore is chasing, subscribing to, and promoting whatever low effort avenue they can find that will confidently line their pockets with $$$. They don't give a microscopic S--T about Model Aviation, it's ALL about $$$.
The leadership has taken 80 plus years of what created and has maintained their existence, turned their backs on it all, and all of us who have supported it, proclaimed drones etc as OUR future, and is now shoving that "future" directly up all of the memberships asses. Remember, this is the "leadership" that AMA members PAY $$$ FOR. Anyone who can't figure any of this out has to be a total effin' moron.
Well (and very disappointingly) as far as this 40 plus year aero modeler and EX AMA MEMBER is concerned, the AMA can kiss my a--. D>K
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Ok, here it is...
The ONLY thing that the AMA is an advocate for anymore is chasing, subscribing to, and promoting whatever low effort avenue they can find that will confidently line their pockets with $$$. They don't give a microscopic S--T about Model Aviation, it's ALL about $$$.
The leadership has taken 80 plus years of what created and has maintained their existence, turned their backs on it all, and all of us who have supported it, proclaimed drones etc as OUR future, and is now shoving that "future" directly up all of the memberships asses. Remember, this is the "leadership" that AMA members PAY $$$ FOR. Anyone who can't figure any of this out has to be a total effin' moron.
Well (and very disappointingly) as far as this 40 plus year aero modeler and EX AMA MEMBER is concerned, the AMA can kiss my a--. D>K
Morning, Wayne.
You summed it up perfectly. y1 y1
I really have to wonder where all the $$$$ go what with the membership dues, all the absurd advertising in the rag, ridiculous gnats entry fees and so on.
Maybe well spent, maybe not.
In any case, I'm glad with all the responses here (minus a few totally stupid ones) that I'm not the only one fed up with all this drone crap - "The future of model aviation". Possibly, no, make that definitely the most insidiously STUPID comment I've ever read in a model airplane magazine. '' ''
Bob Z.
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It looks to me that drone subjects and drone advertising in MA is a wasted effort. "Drone people" do not belong to AMA, and therefore do not have access to the magazine. The typical drone user buys their outfit from a mail-order or other source not connected with the model aircraft hobby. They go their own way not knowing anything about how the AMA and their magazine is eagerly promoting drones, in hopes of increasing AMA membership.
The AMA might see the sudden popularity of drones as somehow beneficial to their interests. In reality, there is little, if any, connection between drone users and the AMA.
I expect to see an independent publisher introduce a new magazine devoted only to drones, and sold on newsstands. Then, the AMA might realize that their own drone-affectation is being ignored by the very people they want to attract (that is, those with no craft skills but with lots of spare money).
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Actually, quad copter racing is about the only RC event, besides a bit of sport flying that I'd consider trying. Met a couple of younger guys locally and watched them do it, and some video. Doing it FPV looks like fun. Rather difficult, requires precision flying, close quarters stuff, not too many rules, and a clear winner(s), and not too expensive.
Don't misunderstand the other comments - I don't think anyone begrudges the responsible use or users of drones/quadcopters. It's much like R/C - there is a percentage of RC guys that compete, develop, do model aviation just like we do. There is some fraction of RC sport fliers who still operate that way, too. They are competent, knowledgeable and responsible. But the vast majority are RC "consumers" - buy one ARF or RTF trainer after another, crash it, move on to something else pretty quickly. They are almost uniformly ignorant and irresponsible, and know nothing about model aviation and have no commitment at all. Some of them join AMA because they have to in order to fly at a club field (that the first group developed and operate), but they see the AMA as a source of consumer advertising, and ignore the separate section at the back about all these stodgy old fat men talking about bylaws, etc.
Same thing with drone people, except that they don't have to bother with AMA, they buy the thing, charge it up, and go to the back yard or the park, and start crashing it into things. Maybe they get pretty good at it, and with the vast automation, start getting "neat shots" with them, like at airports, Kim Kardashian's wedding (or divorce, or whatever ignorant and immoral bullshit they are doing this week). Of course they get caught somehow, hence the almost daily "drone crashes into white house" stories.
This latter group *is going to cause regulation*, period, end of discussion. People HATE them, they are despised by the general public. That was never going to be avoided, and it was perfectly clear that it was not going to be avoided long ago. It is a metaphysical certitude, and cannot be averted.
How can the first group - which is not a problem - be separated from the second when the AMA is going out of it's way to blur the lines of distinction? If you draw a distinction, you can use the historic carve-outs for model aviation to insulate the people who are not the cause of the issue from the second, which is going to get regulated no matter what. That is the correct path to take - make clear distinctions between the responsible AMA-policed activity, and the buy-and-fly rogues. Use the existing laws to make sure the AMA is the "community-based organization" mentioned in the special rule for model aircraft, they embrace the responsible operators, the AMA remains the 800-lb gorilla and the gatekeepers (which they have defended with 6+ years of legal wrangling in the past). Works for AMA, they might double the membership, reduce the insurance risk pool, we get protected at the same time.
But what they appear to have decided to do is call them all the one thing, and make no distinction whatsoever. That puts us all in the same boat with the buy-and-fly idiots, and subject to the same draconian regulation that is certain to happen. Of course, they will regulate that there must be "geofencing" and other items that cannot be implemented in conventional aircraft, because no one including the AMA is even willing to ask about FF and CL. That was blatantly clear when I asked about it, they didn't want to start trying to make a distinction between various types of models because it would "confuse the issue". So, eveyone/anyone tell me, what make and version of geofencing firmware is used to keep your Twister from straying into the path of Air Force One? What do you mean, you don't use geofencing firmware, that's a legal requirement? Oops, accidental end of FF and CL, but boy howdy, you can get a drone down at Wal-Mart for $75.
I would also remind everyone that NOTHING, repeat, NOTHING in any FAA document, "guidelines for law enforcement", anything, mentions or exempts CL and FF from any of this. The AMA asserts that it was not the intent of the rule to regulate CL, but that assertion is apparently backed by absolutely nothing (as the AMA admits) in any legal document. If local law enforcement gets a complaint, they will pull out the "FAA guide to drone regulation for law enforcement", it's more than 5.5 ounces and it goes into they air," you are finished and all the appeals along the lines of "the AMA says that wasn't the intent" will be worth exactly jack @#$%. In fact it also mentions that "tethered drones" (which actually means quadcopters with trailing wires instead of radio) are not exempted. Of course, that means that all your protestations that you are tied to the surface of a sphere does't help you.
That's why it is a mortal threat to model aviation, and why the AMA's tack on this is so fundamentally flawed. At best, they are going to try to get RC airplanes a break, but don't wait around for or expect that they will make any other distinctions or even care whether or not CL dies due to unachievable requirements due to a misunderstanding.
Brett
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My Lord, I hate to seem like a Brett Buck groupie, but the more he expounds on things, the more I wish I had the education to communicate better
Ok ---the seemingly kiss ass---
Very well said Brett!
While I do not hide from my enthusiasm with the new technology, and the fun I personally have with the new toys. I have to agree with all of Bret's assertions, observations, and conclusions
Stated elsewhere; I do not really fear the actual product "DRONE"--- but I am sincerely concerned about a LOT of the follow on problems....for MOST other Model Aviation Hobbyists
Back when we discussed DOT-FCC license for only $5 -----I was (1) one of ONLY 450+/- folks with a opinion
So a few years later here we are....
AMA abdicating THEIR OWN charter ---written and implied mission statement--- to cow tow to $$$$ advertising interests in the misguided attempt to gain MORE membership...
Trying to seem to entice a group that is not highly motivated to join...
(AMA) KNOWING full well this angers a LOT of the core membership ----who like me ----seriously consider NOT re-enlisting
And because I do send off the occasional note to my District rep and the AMA Butt heads... They cannot claim ignorance...
100% of the responses to my communication attempts--- seems to imply ----I am a dinosaur, and out of touch with reality
so I am still fugged
I think we NEED the NATs...do not like the way it is ...prefer rotation venues
I Know we need USA presence at the International venues
I doubt the insurance is really a needed reason to join...seems to me my very good (IMO) USAA home owners will cover ME very well ---so I do not loose my ass ----if I kill a spectator or car in the parking lot
I wonder some days if Bill Gates was passionate about Carrier, Combat, Racing, or Stunt flying if we would even need to have these troubling discussions