.049 trainer to work up to Skyray .35

[CougDave]

Hello, I am coming back to control line after a really long time away.  I flew a half A model back in Middle school a few times,(1976?) and built a Skyray back in the early nineties and put two flights on it. (And just sold it this last Month)  Now, I have a chance to fly with some guys for a few weeks in the fall (Work assignment.)  They both have Sig Skyrays with Fox .35s.  They do stunting, racing, and whatever they want out in a circle they have built in a backlot behind their warehouse.  I have been building Free Flight Scale, and some R/C oldies and gliders over the years, so I still remember how to build.  I would like to try stunt, even if I don't get to an advanced level.  I would like to be able to fly straight and level, inverted, wingovers and inside and outside loops by the time I go up North.  A local club has an old 1/2A circle, but no current members have ever flown CL.  I can use the circle if I clean it up and enlarge it for them over the course of the summer.  (And maintain the rest of the field for them as long as I am there with the equipment)  There is plenty of room to put in a full sized circle for 70 foot lines, but I need to do some serious brush removal and lot clearing.

I plan to start out with a Brodak .049, and a Baby Lightning Streak.  My level is complete beginner, so I will probably get two kits, and plan on lots of repairs.  Is this the best plane for starting out on?  I chose it because all of the primary trainers have solid wings.  I am afraid that the higher wing loadings will keep getting ahead of me in the circle.  (Not as fast on the feet as I used to be!)  I have searched this site for Skyray and trainer info, and this seems like a decent way to go.  I just want to check out my plan before I place the order.  My flying level will be complete beginner with limited coordination.  (I am a klutz )  After I get this working fairly well, I will move up to a .15 powerd plane, and then the Skyray.  (I will step up as the circle gets enlarged.) 

Am I on the right path with this plan?  Will this plane work well?  Do I need a long mount if I am not using a tank mount?  Should I use the MK I, or the MK II .049?  I already have the skyray and Fox ordered, but I want to get training as soon as possible.  I will be completely self teaching, so I need easy to fly, and bulletproof!  (Or repairable)  I am really looking forward to this, as I always enjoyed flying CL, but I never got the chance to stay with it.

Thanks for all of your advice,
Dave

[Bootlegger]

Welcome back, Dave when I was learning to fly I found that it was easier with a larger model, such as the Skyray as they are easier to control than 1/2a models.
 Something that you might want to try is don't move your wrist or elbow, instead move your arm up and down SLOWLY at your sholder, this way you aren't as apt to over control the model.
  Something else, is a small clunk tank with 1oz of fuel for short flights, using the clunk tank, the clunk will pick up the fuel, also use a lower pitch prop such as a 10x5 on the Fox 35 engine as this will not "screw" you into the ground.
  Hope that this helps..Oh, the itallic's are for emphasis...

[bob werle]

For what it is qorth, I have both Brodak .049's and love the Mk II.  I think it is the stronger of the 2.  The MkII is on a plank wing stunt trainer clled Whitw Lightning and iy is a great fit.  The runs are clean and it starts easy after break in.  Lots of luck from one beginner to another.

[Paul Taylor]

OR if you can get your hands on a UKey-35. Bigger is better.

Beat the crap out of the ground with it and learn to stunt.

[CougDave]

Thanks everybody,  I am getting stoked for this to happen.  I was at the "Circle" on lunch today.  I got two snowmobiles dragged out and a couple of small saplings that were too big for the sickle bar mower hacked down.  If we can clear out seven or eight more small trees, and a Ford Pinto, I will have a 37' radius to fly in.  The next round of enlarging it will take a loader, and some grunt work, as it bordered by cars piled two and three high.  We have a deal to get the cars hauled for scrap, but we have to free them up and drag them over to the driveway so that the truck can access them.  (Reclaiming a junkyard that crept onto the edge of the flying site 25 years ago)  I have a load of dirt coming in tomorrow to build up the center of the circle a bit.  I will also start to fill in the North side of the circle a bit to bring it up to level and cover up the stubble left after mowing it flat.  Not sure which will be done first, the circle or the plane, but both are keeping me busy.  The "Expansion" part of the project won't start until the end of May or so, as that is when the scrap truck is coming in, so I will have to stay small until mid summer or so.

Thanks for the suggestion on the Skyray prop.  I was going to use the "Textbook" suggestions of a 10x4 for breakin and a 10x6 for flying, but a 10x5 makes a bit more sense.  It will also slow the plane down a bit while I am learning.  I can always move up to the 10x6 as I get the hang of it.  The one ounce tank is a great idea too.  I remember the two flights I had back in the nineties (1992?) the guy teaching me only filled the tank halfway.  I won't get as dizzy this time, because I am practicing spinning a few times a day.  I am at 25-30 laps at a time right now, but I think I am going a bit faster then skyray speed too.  (Probably about right for .049 on short lines)

I will probably go for the MK II.  I will get the beam mount version of the Lightning Streak.  (Or check out the White Lightning) That will prevent any CG problems.  I will also make sure that I am getting the right parts when I order.  I am guessing that Brodak will steer me in the right direction and make sure I get the correct mounts, connectors and glow plugs for the system I am buying. 


Thanks again,
Dave

[Tim Wescott]

Normally I'd say start with the Skyray -- it'll be easier to fly.  But it sounds like you're going to start with a 1/2A sized circle, which means -- 1/2A.

A plank wing isn't going to go all that faster in level flight -- it's just not going to turn as well.  A plank wing is a _lot_ easier to repair -- take a plank wing 1/2A ship and a bottle of thin CA to the field, and you can crash and rebuild all day, and still have something left that'll fly again.

Then when you get those cars cleared out of there, you'll be more than ready for the Skyray.

[Robert McHam]

Dave, how about something quick, simple, cheap and easy to repair in one fell swoop?
Wild Bill's Square One from one sheet of balsa: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12900.0

Robert

[Larry Renger]

Quit screwing around with damagable airplanes and get a Black Widow engine and a Plastic Fantastic 24.  The Widow is readily available on e-Bay, and the PF24 from Brodak.  I taught two newbies how to fly, loop, fly inverted and do eights in 3 weekends with one of these and STILL HAVE THE MODEL!!! Over any sort of grass it is totally indestructable.  I lost count on the number of crashes, but estimate it at about 50.  Heck, I was stuffing it in recently trying to improve my inverted pull-outs.  Still no damage.

Quick to build and rugged as can be.  Fly on 30' of the lightest grade Spiderwire.  The only thing you can do to screw up Spiderwire is have it wrap up in the prop, and that is likely to damage the engine as much as the string.

[CougDave]

Spiderwire?  The fishing line?   What test do you use?  I am heading to Jay's Sporting Goods this week to get the boat ready for RC seaplane rescue duty.  (And to get the fishing gear up to date in case it's too windy to fly the planes)  How do you tie that stuff off for CL use?  I know from my little experience with it that it is strong, thin, low stretch, and very slippery and hard to tie off securely. 

I am looking for pictures of the plastic fantastic.  I will check that out.  I tend to be a builder when given the choice, but I like the idea of indestructible  I also looked at the Square One.  It looks simple enough to knock out two or three in a long weekend. 

Thanks again for all the help.  I will keep looking at all of the options.
Dave

[George]

Spiderwire?  The fishing line? ... How do you tie that stuff off for CL use? Dave

Think Palomar knot...just like fishing.   

IMHO that 1/2A Skyray you sold would have been an excellent plane for your purposes. You can set up the external controls for minimum travel for your first round-n-rounds, then for more movement as you get better. You can do loops, inverted, wingovers, and figure eights with it...which you stated as your goal.

That would take you to the Skyray 35 on your larger circle.

The planes you mention should work too, just a little harder to repair. Use a narrow handle spacing at first for less sensitive control.

George

[CougDave]

Actually the skyray I had two flights on decades ago, and just sold was a .35.  That makes this whole situation even more painful!  The two flights were with an instructor in the circle holding my hand, so I can't really say I flew it by myself, but I got a bit of a feel for it.  If I had thought I had a place to fly it, I never would have sold it.  We are all electric at my normal field, so I can't fire up the Fox.  Now, the junkyard field comes into play, and I have to start over with a plane and motor!  (And handle and lines...)  At least I got a decent price for the Skyray.  (About the price of a bare kit and motor)  If I knew of anybody in my end of the state flying Control line, I would run over, join their club, mow their lawn and tap into the expertise of their club.  I can do some serious driving for the amount I will spend trying to figure it out myself!  I am determined, now, though.  I have watched some of the stunt on youtube, and I have decided to at least learn most of the beginner's pattern this Summer. 

I plan to beat up the ground a bit to paraphrase Paul!  (Can't word it the same way because Cathie is looking over my shoulder!)

Thanks again for all of the advice. I will let you all know how the adventure goes.

Dave

[Wayne Collier]

Spiderwire?  The fishing line?   What test do you use?  I am heading to Jay's Sporting Goods this week to get the boat ready for RC seaplane rescue duty.  (And to get the fishing gear up to date in case it's too windy to fly the planes)  How do you tie that stuff off for CL use?  I know from my little experience with it that it is strong, thin, low stretch, and very slippery and hard to tie off securely. 

I use braided spiderwire.  I personally use 20lb test that is the same diameter as the old standard 8lb monofiliment line.  20lb test is probably way overkill.  I think lots of people are using lighter line.  Using the braided line, knots don't need to be super fancy.  Most decent fishing knots will do.  I use a variation of the clinch knot.  I leave a short tag of line coming from the knot so I can check for slips -- no slips so far while flying 1/2a.  One of the guys in the 1/2a section of this forum says he uses three overhand knots with success.  I don't think 1/2a is nearly as hard on line as fishing -- unless it gets into the prop.

[john e. holliday]

Dave, you say your field is all electric, check out the Brodak Mfg site.  They have two electric set ups for control line.  I have been trying to get enough coin to get one myself as a start in electric.   

[Phillip Kenney]

Reading the thread the plastic fantastic sounded interesting but Brodak does not have apicture of it on htier site. AAnbody have a pic they can post? Sounds like an interesting idea.

[CougDave]

I googled the plastic fantastic, but didn't have any luck finding a picture.

I was really looking at the Stevens Aero electric, but I was warned that it was not a beginner setup.  Even though I fly electric RC planes, I don't think it is as durable as a glow engine for learning.  (The weight can also be an issue in CL)

I will take the advice given, and start with a plank of some type.  (Or the plastic one if I can find out more about it)  I will beat the heck out of the ground until I learn it.  I will either go with the Brodak primary trainer, or build Square ones.  (I also have a plan for a plank Ringmaster .049)  When I can keep the plank off of the ground, I will probably play with a built up model.  (Actually I am starting to build a couple of 1/2A Ringmasters with built up wings, but I won't fly them until I have mastered something more durable.)

Thanks again,
Dave

[Kim Doherty]

Dave,

Go to the Balsa Beavers web site and look under the "Newcomers Plans and Info" tab. You will find .PDF plans for the ManWin trainer made of Corplast (plastic sign material). It is beyond indestructible. I have taught dozens of people to fly on it. Very stable, easy, quick and inexpensive to build. IMHO the best first trainer ever designed.


http://www.balsabeavers.ca/

Kim.

[CougDave]

Thanks!  I checked out the coroplast plane.  That looks simple and bulletproof.  I know a politician, so I can probably get a couple of leftover signs from him.  I think I have everything else except the motor andthe carbon fiber laying around in my workshop. The one thing that surprises me is the amount of outward thrust.  I have flown a lot of Free Flight over the years, and I don't ever remember building in 18 degrees of anything!  It probably gets the lines pretty tight while flying in circles.  It might take some of the forward speed away too.  that would help with the spin rate of the newbie pilot.

I am still making parts for the Ringmaster tonight.  I will probably toss my questions about that into a different thread.  I promise that I will go through a couple of plank or plastic models before I tackle the Ringmaster, though.  I'm going to make that one too nice to wreck.

Thanks again for all of the advice and encouragement,
Dave

[Larry Renger]

Brodak lists the Plastic Fantastic on his website.

[Brett Buck]

I know a politician, so I can probably get a couple of leftover signs from him. 

   That's what we like to see- tools of evil being turned to useful societal function!

     Brett

[ray copeland]

Coroplast planes are easy to design and build and you can play around with modifications to suit yourself. Check out the pic , just a few of my coro's are on the front line. The red wing and blue fuse is a plastic fantastic, it is a fun plane to learn to fly with as well as the lil' hacker by Phil Cartier (Corehouse).

[GGeezer]

Quote:
"Go to the Balsa Beavers web site and look under the "Newcomers Plans and Info" tab. You will find .PDF plans for the ManWin trainer made of Corplast (plastic sign material). It is beyond indestructible. I have taught dozens of people to fly on it. Very stable, easy, quick and inexpensive to build. IMHO the best first trainer ever designed."

I heartily agree with Kim, I learned to fly C/L again after 50 years with this plane. I have since built one for training and can teach even your grandmother to fly in a couple of tries. After building a number of them, I found that the original plan can benefit from some engineering upgrades.
Photo #1 shows The trainer on the left powered by a Cox Babe Bee and my full stunt job on the right powered by a Cox TD .049. The rubber band mounted 1 oz clunk tank modified to Uniflow gives consistent runs both upright and inverted which the Black Widow wouldn't do but both engines have enough power to do the complete pattern.
The last time I zonked in the stunt job, I didn't break the plane but the TD's carb. body didn't fare so well.
Photo #2 shows the trainer with a chunk of lead screwed to the motor mount in order to get the CG 1-1/4" behind the leading edge. It is extremely hard to over control but unfortunately, glides like a brick, but who cares, you can't break it!
Photo #3 shows an engineering upgrade to the elevator. The original plan has a continuous hinge but this is too stiff. The slotted hinge works a lot better but can break in a heavy prang. I prefer to use a continuous Monokote hinge like on the stunt version. I use trim Monokote for hinges and the leading edge cap. Also note that the elevator horn in mounted on a riser block to reduce the throw.
Photo #4 shows the stunt version. An upgrade is to make the base of the motor mounts a little longer and drill a set of three mounting holes for each position. This allows the mount to adjusted in order to change the balance point.
Hints:
1. The motor mount base can crush the Coroplast when the bolts are tightened. This is what I do: Locate the three mounting holes on the wing and only drill through the top skin. Put the nozzle of a low-temp hot-glue gun in the hole and extrude hot melt into the corrugation channel to about 3/4" on both sides of the holes. Allow the hot melt to solidify and then redrill the hole completely through. Do this prceedure for the elevator horn mounting hole too.
2. Do not change the engine offset. It looks extreme but doesn't seem to effect the performance and really makes the model a windy weather flier. In fact the TD will fly the model in tight circles above your head all day.

All in all, a great plane, cheap and fast to build and lasts forever.

Orv.

[john e. holliday]

I went to the site and found pictures but no plans.  A dummy like me needs deminsions.

[CougDave]

It took me a moment to find the plans too.  Down below the pictures, there is a paragraph describing the plane.  Underneath that, there is a link to a pdf  called  images/trainer2.pdf.  That will give you a nice little plan with most of the dimensions on it.

I have asked a few people, and none of them have any leftover signs.  I guess they all recycled them to show their green awareness.  I will have to scrounge or buy some now.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

Took several tries before the pdf icon would show up.  I now have two copies.  Maybe get my son and step grand sons flying again.  Thanks.

[Tim Wescott]

Took several tries before the pdf icon would show up.  I now have two copies.  Maybe get my son and step grand sons flying again.  Thanks.

Should you fly it, could you post your experiences?  One of those "indestructible" planes was handed to my kid.  The elevator hinge was very stiff, and it took about 1/4 of one flight for it to hit the dirt so hard it bent the coreplast around the engine mount.

Primaries here are in May -- I think I'll cruise around cleaning up signs (if any show up) and make a plane or two for the club.

[Kim Doherty]

Should you fly it, could you post your experiences?  One of those "indestructible" planes was handed to my kid.  The elevator hinge was very stiff, and it took about 1/4 of one flight for it to hit the dirt so hard it bent the coreplast around the engine mount.

Primaries here are in May -- I think I'll cruise around cleaning up signs (if any show up) and make a plane or two for the club.

Tim,

I have probably flown this model as much as any one has. Make sure the C of G is in the correct place. Let some plywood into the plastic where bolt holes are to be drilled. The elevator only needs about four 1/4" "hinges. Cut everything else away and pre-bend by hand few times. (we don't need a lot of elevator travel at this point.) Make sure the controls are very free. A little bit extra tip weight will not hurt especially at the beginning. Make sure the engine is running at full speed. Adjust lap times by lengthening the lines. You really do not want a long engine run at this stage, two minutes at a time at most. Make sure to launch with a good running start and launch downwind.

Note that just because the plane is "indestructible" someone with no flying experience will not be able to fly it without some hands on instruction.

Kim.

[MrSteve09]

Dave,....

You've gotten a lot of good advice here on this form.  I'd just like to ad my two cents worth of experience.  When I started to get back into control line AND teach my boys the hobby I used the 1/2A Sig Skyrays.  I purchased Cox Blackwidows OR GoldenBees for the engines off Ebay.  I built two 1/2A Sig Skyrays (one for each boy) back in 2003, and we still have those planes today.  They are both flyable, and both boys learned how to fly straight and level.  Don't get me wrong,... they crashed the heck out of those planes!! Noses got broken off, tails were snapped off.  But everything was repairable with epoxy. 

The numbers on the end of the wing were the ages of my boys when I built the Skyrays.  Now my boys are 11 and 13!!

Sincerely,
Steve T.

[George]

For guys who are returning to or just trying CL, you do not have a servo to move the elevator, movement depends entirely on line tension so DO NOT use nylon hinges, etc. Controls must be VERY easy to move.

George

[Tim Wescott]

For guys who are returning to or just trying CL, you do not have a servo to move the elevator, movement depends entirely on line tension so DO NOT use nylon hinges, etc. Controls must be VERY easy to move.

You do mean flexible plastic hinges, yes?

Pinned nylon hinges work great, and are as floppy as anything out there when they're properly installed.

[Larry Renger]

The ultimate for ease of installation and free movement are the figure-8 thread hinges.  They are well documented here on Stunt Hangar, so you can just do a search to learn all about them.

[George]

You do mean flexible plastic hinges, yes?

Pinned nylon hinges work great, and are as floppy as anything out there when they're properly installed.

Yes, and Yes.

[Steve Helmick]

I'm wondering where "CougDave" is located...could be a WAZZU Cougar, maybe. You can put your city and state in your profile, and also in your signature. The thing is, there could be somebody in the next town, or across town, who's looking for a flying buddy. That could be you! It's also one of the many nice things about PAMPA membership...we can look up somebody close to you very easily. Don't be shy!  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

The ultimate for ease of installation and free movement are the figure-8 thread hinges.  They are well documented here on Stunt Hangar, so you can just do a search to learn all about them.

But surely not for a 35 sized stunter?

I love figure-8 thread hinges for small models.  I learned them from the old Ace R/C 1-channel rigs, then started using them on 1/2-A control line.  I'm even using them on an RC foamie I'm working up, although the thread pulls out of the foam, so you need balsa on the hinge lines if you're going to use them.

[Brett Buck]

But surely not for a 35 sized stunter?

   Why not?  It works just as well, and a lot of combat planes have it like that. Just use dacron fishing line or kevlar instead of thread.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Take that peice of Dacron line in your hands and try to break it.  If it breaks easily for you then take four peices and try it again.  It is the number of threads that prouce the strength.  I have used the figure 8 hinge on several planes in which the super fantabulous nylon hinges have given way(broke).  As stated, must have wood for the thread to go thru.

[CougDave]

I had to run out of town for work for a few days.  I am back at home now.  I am from Michigan, but I used to restore Mercury Cougars for a hobby.  (a 1968, two' 69s and two '70s over the years)  Cougdave was my handle one the old Musclecar forums, and it kind of traveled from the car boards to the flying boards.  (Lots of the same people)  I will play with the profile page and see if I can get my hometown up there.  (Houghton Lake for anybody who is familiar with Michigan)

I have a couple of Ringmasters cut out and one ready to cover the wing on.  Now, I am looking at building a plank wing palae for practice.  If I can dig up some coroplast, I will probably make up a couple of those too.  You can never have too many simple planes to thrash around.  The thread hinges look like a great idea.  I will probably try building a couple of those.  I have used a lot of cloth and Monokote hinges, so I can see how the thread would be even more free moving.

I won't be flying for a while though.  I tore up an ankle a bit, and I can barely walk, let alone spin around in circles.  (Or clean up at the field)  I am guessing it may be midsummer before I am allowed to do things like that again.  (I was practicing my spinning too.  I was getting up to about 90 turns at a 4 second pace without any dizziness at all.)  I will keep building though.  One good point is if I can't fly, it's easy to keep the planes looking nice!

Thanks again. 
Dave

[john e. holliday]

If you can even get out and set up you can fly with out spinning.  I did that with a Sport plane after club meeting at the R/C field one night.  Told the son to get out of the road as soon as it leaves his hands.  Had my feet planted and did loops and lazy 8's until the engine quit.  Had to take a step to land as I was not far enough to the right to get the plane down.  By the way anolther good plane is the old "BI-SLOB".  Soloed my brother-in-law on one.   

[Phillip Kenney]

On the Man-Win trainer. I downloaded the pdf file and took it to my local copy store and had them print it full size. I ended up with a plane with a wingspan of about 38". Nice but I doubt the Black Widow will fly it. Am I the only bonzo who has problems getting correct sized copies form Kinko's? What size should I request the plan be printed to get the correct wingpan?

[Tim Wescott]

On the Man-Win trainer. I downloaded the pdf file and took it to my local copy store and had them print it full size. I ended up with a plane with a wingspan of about 38". Nice but I doubt the Black Widow will fly it. Am I the only bonzo who has problems getting correct sized copies form Kinko's? What size should I request the plan be printed to get the correct wingpan?

Waltz up to the counter, give them the file, and say "please print this so the inch scale is in inches".

The pdf file lists the paper size as 27 x 21 inches, which matches the dimensions on the plans.  Someone at Kinko's just let the machine take control -- printing it 1:1, _not_ fit to whatever paper size they have, should give you the results you want.

You could just transfer the given dimensions to your coreplast with a sharpie marker, and not use full size plans at all, if you feel like doing the work.

[john e. holliday]

The plans I got printed off had most of the deminsions on it.  Couldn't the people at the copy place see.   The last file I had print to full scale the lady looked at the print and said this will be easy.  2 inch spinner and two inch wheels noted on the plans.  She ran a copy and measured.

[Greg McCoy]

Since this thread started I built 2 Man-Win trainers with TD .049. Have about $6 in both, not counting the engines.

[Wayne Collier]

You could just transfer the given dimensions to your coreplast with a sharpie marker, and not use full size plans at all, if you feel like doing the work.

In my opinion, that is the ticiket.