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Author Topic: Golden States Results?  (Read 8654 times)

Online Gerald Arana

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Golden States Results?
« on: October 23, 2018, 07:44:43 AM »
Is anybody going to write a report on the contest? Mike? Howard?

I left early because I cut my heel on a broken fingernail (False, No not mine!) in the shower Sunday morning.......damn!  HB~>

Cheers, Jerry

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 02:06:11 PM »
I was looking for an excuse not to show up and be humiliated Sunday, but one can only use the old false-fingernail-in-the-shower story so many times.
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Online Gerald Arana

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 03:05:35 PM »
I was looking for an excuse not to show up and be humiliated Sunday, but one can only use the old false-fingernail-in-the-shower story so many times.

 LL~ LL~ LL~  Good one Howard!

Jerry

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 04:04:41 PM »
I was looking for an excuse not to show up and be humiliated Sunday, but one can only use the old false-fingernail-in-the-shower story so many times.

  On the other hand, you didn't answer the question, either. I am curious who won, too.

   Brett

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 04:13:55 PM »
Here are the results. - Corrected

Old Time Stunt
1.)  Jim Hoffman         299            316
2.)  Bob Whitely          303.75       314.5
3.)  Lou Wolgast          287.75       306
4.)  Jim Aron               290           301.75
5.)  John Wright          272           286.5
6.)  Ray Firkins           192.75       283.25

Classic Stunt
1.)  Bob Whitely         563            589
2.)  Lou Wolgast         580.5         575
3.)  Ray Firkins           566           566
4.)  Dennis Nunes       549           562.5
5.)  Mike Haverly        553           560
6.)  Warren Tiahrt       550.5        550.5
7.)  Jim Aron              547.5        547.5
8.)  Jim Rhoades         537.5        542.5
9.)  David Riggs          520          536.5
10.) Lanny Shorts       512.5        524
11.) Jerry Silver          512          357
12.) Gary Gingerich     456          504.5
13.) Mark Wasnick       468.5        496.5
14.) Mike Massey         493          487
15.) Pete Cunha            454          Pass
16.) Fred Staley          453          443.5
17.) Bill Ervin              136          427.5
18.) Jerry Arana          309          Pass

Beginner
1.)  Henry Feistel       98.5         98.5

Intermediate
1.)  David Shorts        403          413
2.)  Eliot Scott            401.5        358
3.)  Joe Hoppa           390          347
4.)  Charles Jenks       366.5        200

Advanced
1.)  Dennis Nunes         515          521
2.)  Gary Gingerich       494.5        504.5
3.)  Walter Hicks          500.5        Pass
4.)  Steven MacBride     494.5        495
5.)  Bob Duncan           464.5        491.5
6.)  Mike Massey          491          489.5
7.)  David Riggs          486.5        490
8.)  Charles Carter      418          485
9.)  Brian Massey        483.5        Pass
10.) Fred Staley          467          480.5
11.) Larry Wong          476          443
12.) Mike Scholtes       467          459

Expert
1.)  David Fitzgerald       605          610
2.)  Chris Cox                597.4        610
3.)  Paul Walker             606          608.5
4.)  Howard Rush           596.5        607.5
5.)  Bob Whitely             574.5        570
6.)  Jim Aron                 562.5        573.5 - Corrected
7.)  Jim Hoffman            562          573.5 - Corrected
8.)  Alan Resinger          567.5        572.5
9.)  Kestas Dvarvydis     570          571.5
10.) Steve Harris           549          569
10.) Lou Wolgast           549          569
12.) Ray Firkins             557          562
13.) John Wright           559.5        560.5
14.) Scott Dinger          537.5        558.5
15.) Jim Rhoades          537          557.5
16.) Paul Pomposo        549          554.5
17.) Mike Haverly         551          542
18.) Warren Tiahrt        547          540
19.) Richard Walbridge  533.5        547
20.) Bill Ervin               544          546.5
21.) Brian Moore           545.5        539
22.) Marshall Palmer     540.5        541.5
23.) Bob Swan             518          533.5
24.) Mark Wasnick        515.5        510.5
25.) Lanny Shorts        496          Pass

Dennis
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 06:37:30 PM by Dennis Nunes »

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 04:49:48 PM »
Is anybody going to write a report on the contest? Mike? Howard?

I left early because I cut my heel on a broken fingernail (False, No not mine!) in the shower Sunday morning.......damn!  HB~>

Cheers, Jerry
24 Expert entries? and 1 point from 1 judge decided it?  At this rate Muncie will be a warm up for Golden State!

Congrats to all - Ken
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Offline James Holford

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 07:07:28 PM »
24 Expert entries? and 1 point from 1 judge decided it?  At this rate Muncie will be a warm up for Golden State!

Congrats to all - Ken
Heck 18 in Classic impresses me! And only 4 in advanced?!?!?! Wow lol

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Offline BYU

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 08:04:20 PM »
And only 4 in advanced?!?!?! Wow lol

Or possibly 4 in Intermediate
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 10:26:37 AM by Bobs your Uncle »

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 08:07:09 PM »
Heck 18 in Classic impresses me! And only 4 in advanced?!?!?! Wow lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


25 in Expert, 12 in Advanced, 4 in Intermediate, 1 Beginner, 18 in Classic and 6 in OTS is what I got, merely from looking at the results. That contest in Indiana is a great warmup for Golden State!  D>K Steve












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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2018, 08:27:25 PM »

25 in Expert, 12 in Advanced, 4 in Intermediate, 1 Beginner, 18 in Classic and 6 in OTS is what I got, merely from looking at the results. That contest in Indiana is a great warmup for Golden State!  D>K Steve

 That's a great turnout, I think that total is more than all the C/L flyers in my entire state.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Offline James Holford

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2018, 08:33:30 PM »

25 in Expert, 12 in Advanced, 4 in Intermediate, 1 Beginner, 18 in Classic and 6 in OTS is what I got, merely from looking at the results. That contest in Indiana is a great warmup for Golden State!  D>K Steve
Too much beer lol. I read that wrong lol

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Jamie Holford
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2018, 08:44:07 PM »

25 in Expert, 12 in Advanced, 4 in Intermediate, 1 Beginner, 18 in Classic and 6 in OTS is what I got, merely from looking at the results. That contest in Indiana is a great warmup for Golden State!  D>K Steve

    This sort of thing is why I wanted to either change the recommended score ranges as "cover" for an amnesty to let people go backwards. This is absolutely representative of the sort of distribution we get regularly, almost no one in beginner or intermediate, and heavily stacked in expert. It was *95 points* from top to bottom in Expert. Look at the distribution, see anything that stands out?   This is with no Ted, and I only took pictures:



     

   Brett


Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2018, 10:09:31 PM »
And for the record, that one "beginner" was a lad of about 10 years who flew a Ringmaster with confidence and skill, dead level laps upright and inverted, good round loops at the right size, and a darned good landing. Watch out as he progresses up the ladder! (He could be older but not more than early teens.) He won a nice kit at the banquet raffle (courtesy of Joe Hoppa) and will have a more capable model in the air soon.

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 10:32:09 PM »
I guess I don't understand things, because my basic math tells me Paul's two flights (3rd place) added up higher than Chris Cox's two flights (2nd)
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 10:35:51 PM »
I guess I don't understand things, because my basic math tells me Paul's two flights (3rd place) added up higher than Chris Cox's two flights (2nd)

Your contest score is the higher of your two flight scores.  The lesser score is only used to break a tie (which is why David Fitzgerald won).
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2018, 02:08:40 AM »
Your contest score is the higher of your two flight scores.  The lesser score is only used to break a tie (which is why David Fitzgerald won).
Well, that doth explain a great deal....LOL!


Gary
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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2018, 08:09:10 AM »
It really does seem as though there is a need for one more skill level. There wouldn't be many in the new level but it would give a lot of experts a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 12:06:24 PM »
It really does seem as though there is a need for one more skill level. There wouldn't be many in the new level but it would give a lot of experts a reason to get out of bed in the morning.


This has been discussed for years. FCM does this for their  August contest. They can weigh in on its value.

However, I would suggest that the Experts that need a reason to get up in the morning should consider getting up to do more practice. I see way to many "Experts" just show up on contest day without much practice. Hard to compete with guys who practice regularly. The guys who won this GSSC have been flying the same plane all year and putting practice in on a regular basis.  Me, I flew my Predator for the first time in competition in many years. Flew in a contest 2 weeks earlier, then hurt my back, and couldn't fly it. Finally 2 days before leaving I flew it again, and then fiddled with props. None the less, It flew VERY well, and my only excuse was my lack of time on that plane. Point here is that you need regular practice on the same plane to do well in competition. This is even more important for someone who is trying to knock off one of the top Experts.

The class system was put in place to give people a chance to fly against others of similar skills.  Expert was the TOP skill level.  It requires a top level of committment to continue to do well it in. If one is not willing to put in a top effort, one should not wish for an Expert trophy that rewards less effort.

If people want to compare their placings versus "like" skill, do what Howard Rush USED to do....he was the best of the JV!  (But not any more!!!). Compare yourselves relative to orhers who put in the same work. 

(Maybe the experts could chip in before a contest (GSSC for example) and make a JV champion trophy to present to that expert! 😂)


My vote, no more classes. We don't have a big enough base to support another class.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2018, 12:31:42 PM »
It really does seem as though there is a need for one more skill level. There wouldn't be many in the new level but it would give a lot of experts a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

My vote, no more classes. We don't have a big enough base to support another class.

I'm not sure if you mean "do away with any classes" or just "please don't add more classes" -- I'm certainly with you on the don't add more.

I moved from Advanced to Expert after I had won Advanced just once or twice (I think once), and had broken 500 once or twice.  I knew, when I chose to move from Advanced to Expert, that I could have stayed in Advanced, possibly for two more years.  I also had a reasonable suspicion (which was borne out by events) that just being in Expert would pull my abilities and scores higher.  So I took my last Advanced trophy, and before I put it on the shelf I kissed it goodby, knowing that I wouldn't be getting any more trophies in skill class for a good long while, if ever.

So why move up?  Because I'm not there for the trophies -- I'm there to get better, and to measure myself against the best.  Howard Rush would have had me move to Expert as soon as I was past the point of tripping over other people's lines.  And if I do want a chance at a trophy, I can dust off my Profile plane and enter that event.

I probably score too well to do it right now, but if someone is toward the bottom of Expert, and is stuck there because of lack of inherent ability, or because they don't practice enough, they can always petition the CD to move down to Advanced.  Ditto someone in the bottom third of Advanced who wants to move down to Intermediate.  I don't know how well it would work right now, but Brett Buck has a proposal to realign the suggested scores, so that the suggested score to bump out of Advanced is 550, rather than the current 500.  The relevant rule is:

Quote
At a contestant’s first contest, he/she may enter any class at his/her
option; however, once committed to a class may only move to a
class of higher skill proficiency. Exception: A contestant may
move to lower class with written permission of a Contest Director
(CD) familiar with CL Precision Aerobatics.

The rules suggest that the CD should be pretty hard-ass about it (my wording, not the rule book's), but in my opinion if you're only rarely bumping over 500, and regularly scoring below it, then a CD should let you move down to Advanced -- and there should be no shame in it.  Ditto for moving down from Advanced with a score that rarely breaks 400.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2018, 12:40:58 PM »

My vote, no more classes. We don't have a big enough base to support another class.

  I much prefer the idea of an "amnesty" to let people shuffle themselves back into the appropriate categories. But, you want to make some "cover" for that, because you want people to not have to think they are were experts and are now advanced, or tell people. That would be the only reason to add an additional class.

    I would also note that when they put in the Midwest beginner pattern as beginner, it effectively went from 4 classes to 3. People blow through the current beginner contest in a weekend, move up into Intermediate, and if they can fly about 3 times in a row without crashing or overrunning, they get pressured into Advanced, that stick everybody else with pressure to move up to Expert, and you get the distribution above.

   To me, it is clear that the skill class system, at least around here, is not working the way it was intended. The alternative would be to combine beginner and intermediate and then have everyone fly the full pattern.

    Brett


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2018, 01:52:01 PM »
    I would also note that when they put in the Midwest beginner pattern as beginner, it effectively went from 4 classes to 3. People blow through the current beginner contest in a weekend, move up into Intermediate, and if they can fly about 3 times in a row without crashing or overrunning, they get pressured into Advanced, that stick everybody else with pressure to move up to Expert, and you get the distribution above.

   To me, it is clear that the skill class system, at least around here, is not working the way it was intended. The alternative would be to combine beginner and intermediate and then have everyone fly the full pattern.

I would agree with you, however I know of too many people who have been afraid to enter Beginner because they couldn't do the whole thing.  Granted, some of that is just standing frozen on the edge of the pool afraid to even stick a toe in, but some is genuinely feeling that you can't start unless you can win the first time out.  I do believe that Beginner helps to overcome that impulse.

I flew in Beginner for -- if I recall correctly -- a whole year.  I don't think I flew a single contest where I didn't come home with a broken airplane (I can't remember if I ever come home with two -- I think I did).  It certainly wasn't something to blow through in a weekend, and I was flying in Expert just five years later (although by your proposed thresholds I wouldn't have moved up to Expert until this year).

So I kind of like having an event that gives a place for people to fly who can't or won't go inverted.  Maybe we should scale the recommended move-up score to match the maneuver count in Beginner.
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Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2018, 02:52:30 PM »
WOW!!!!!
Take a look at the top four in expert. 2 1/2 points separating the top four!
And that’s without Brett and Ted competing.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2018, 11:29:30 PM »

My vote, no more classes. We don't have a big enough base to support another class.
In our area we do not have enough base to support the classes we have now.

I also do not see any way that the skill classes can depend entirely on scores.  There is so much difference in scoring from place to place that an absolute score requirement won't work.  I played competitive tennis in Dallas when I was in my 30's.  We had monthly tournaments and three "skill" classes.  When you joined you entered at the lowest level.  You moved up (not by choice) when you won your level or made the finals twice.  A more appropriate comparison would be figure skating.  I don't know how they do it now but when my daughter competed they had proficiency tests you passed in front of judges to move up.  My point is that we have a system that works except in a few areas where participation is way over the national average.  See below.

Ken
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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2018, 07:09:35 PM »




My vote, no more classes. We don't have a big enough base to support another class.

I don't know that I would support more classes.
Looking at the scores from the event-- four guys are 25-30 points ahead of about a dozen guys. I must assume that guys getting 575 points are scoring 38 points in all but six tricks which indicates that those six tricks are about five points below the guys on the podium. I also think that gaining those five is very difficult and it must be a touch depressing knowing what will be necessary to get them.

When my kid brother got booted from Advanced into Expert I mentioned that his days of trophies were over for a while. He chuckled and said 'oh yeah".

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 09:29:49 PM »
Hi Guy's,
This is a tuff one and even tougher on your ego.  Let's say a you have won a bunch of Advance trophies because of your scores, something might be wrong.  If you haven't won at least one or placed 3rd at a really big contest (Nat’s or a AAA) there is no reason to move to Expert.   

Scores are all over the place at most local contests, but the Nat’s and AAA contests like the GSSC you will get a good idea about your placing with the big boys.  Not trying to run anyone down but if your not within 50 to 100 points of them, that should tell you something.  They do fly very well and you need to work harder to increase your scores period.  After a three year layoff from compition I'm not sure I could be in the running anymore even in Advance (I placed 3rd and 1st in Advance at the Nat’s and placed in the top twenty a number of times).

Later,
Mikey

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2018, 06:47:25 AM »
.....but if your not within 50 to 100 points of them, that should tell you something.

You might be onto something here.  I don't know what the spread should be but it can be expressed as a %.  Compare Dallas and Tulsa for example.  Mid 500's win in Dallas, Low 600's in Tulsa.  Same fliers, same quality of flying and the right people win.  Points are relative to the weather and who is judging and don't work as a standard but distance from the top...maybe.

Ken
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 12:49:58 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2018, 08:31:21 AM »
Based on the pilots around here I think it's inevitable that choosing a dividing line between Advanced and Expert is going to be difficult.  We have three or four world-class guys, depending on how you count, and they almost always fill the top three or four places.  Then we have guys that are good enough to sometimes make top 20 at the Nats, then we have everyone else.  Unless you're going to restrict Expert to those three or four world-class guys, the rest of us just aren't going to see much hardware.  Personally, I haven't hit my ceiling yet, so I don't want to feel like I'm getting booted back down to Advanced -- but I'm not going to be good enough for top 20 day at the Nats any time soon, so I'm not going to be winning locally.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2018, 10:17:43 AM »
You might be onto something here.  I don't know what the spread should be but it can be expressed as a %.  Compare Dallas and Tulsa for example.  Mid 500's win in Dallas, Low 600's in Tulsa.  Same fliers, same quality of flying and the right people win.  Points are relative to the weather and who is judging and don't don't work as a standard but distance from the top...maybe.

  The plot above looks almost the same if you scale the average score down to average 525 - the discontinuity looks the same. I agree the raw number means nothing, but shape of the curve definitely does illustrate the point. The existing 500/400/300 break points really don't work as intended (and didn't really work when they were used in a mandatory system in WAM, either).

   The take-away from this is that there is a huge gap, but another observation is to look at the slope of the line. If you took out David/Chris/Paul/Howard, the competition would have been just as close. The slope of the line for the Top 4 and the 5-20 are about the same and then smoothly falls away. In fact, it's amazing how little "noise" is present (and the big dropoff at the end is an aberration, due to equipment issues, which usually happens but does't represent even competition).

    My point to all this is that the point of having skill classes appears to be to provide good competition with meaningful results at all skill levels. What we have currently are two nearly unused classes, with very few entries, everyone packed into Advanced and Expert, and then inside those classes, a few huge discrepancies in the apparent quality of flight. I want to somehow figure a way to redistribute people into classes to restore the utility.

   Paul is undoubtedly right, but this point also illustrates the difference between people who adopt stunt as a lifetsyle VS, people who are really good at it but do it as a less die-hard manner (and less compromise of the rest of their lives - and make no mistake, you have to almost build your life around stunt to get to the level Paul is talking about, and there *are* compromises made to do that). I think that the point of having skill classes is to provide some separation between the levels of competition.

  Also - I haven't heard anyone complaining about how they came out in these circumstances. What I have seen, however, is people who are really good stunt fliers rapidly move through the classes to Expert, and then hang up at the lower-middle of the class, and not know how or be willing to do what it takes to win - and then just drift away, because they can't or won't make the necessary compromises to compete on the next level. We have to be able to figure something out on that, surely.

    Brett

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2018, 10:57:20 AM »
This is what many of the posts above are alluding to, they are all right in there thinking and feelings.  I don't think we need another Skill class but a rethinking on how and when to move up would be a great idea.

I've been thinking about this for a long time, (at the “Big Contests) it might be a good idea to have a qualifying flight (Just like the Nat’s) to see where you are ranked.  For example, after the first round you can make up a % of the top flyers and restrict the entry's into expert class (I know, what if they had a bad engine run).  Most of the flyers had better have there stuff together and put in a good flight, after all we are talking about Expert PA pilots.

Years ago Dick Byron come up with a ranking system that really wasn't a bad idea.  He was put down by so many people about this idea it wasn't funny at all.  Granted, it was a lot of work and required constant work and mostly submitting timely contest scores to do all of this correctly.  But Dick was willing to do this and set it up.

Having said that, I think a qualifying flight would work at the Bigger Contests and provide a more realistic ranking of the pilots that put in the time to fly the Expert Skill Class.  “Just Food for thought”.

Later,
Mikey

 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:55:17 PM by MikeyPratt »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2018, 12:50:49 PM »
You would think a guy/gal would move up to a higher class after winning at that contest four years in a row.   But Expert is the top and no place to go.  I still remember a gentleman that would mess up a pattern so he wouldn't have to move up from Intermediate.  I think I do that in Advance with out thinking about it. H^^
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
Years ago Dick Byron come up with a ranking system that really wasn't a bad idea.  He was put down by so many people about this idea it wasn't funny at all.  Granted, it was a lot of work and required constant work and mostly submitting timely contest scores to do all of this correctly.  But Dick was willing to do this and set it up.
Mikey

 

  Dick's system took the top 10 reported lifetime scores and averaged them. This did not result in a ranking of who is better than who, it took a sample at who flew at the most contests in the Southwest US (Arizona and LA), and now Northern California and Oregon and got a lot of high scores. At last indication, I was nearly unassailable in 1st place with David and Paul behind. At least 5 of my 10 scores were above 600, and since he stopped, I have had enough more that my average would be well over 600 (probably David and maybe Paul, too). Billy Werwage was 15th or something. No one thinks that I am lifetime better than Billy, or David or Paul for that matter. Gieseke was in the 20s or 30's, I think, behind a lot of advanced fliers.

      I understood what he was trying to do, but if you looked at the list, is just didn't work. I had most of his data (since he published it) and it was a lot of effort, but it didn't rank the competitors and you couldn't use it the way you want to. Ironically, it may have shown more-or-less what the graph above shows, but that's because this is the region that caused the screwy #1 placing in the first place.

   Any system using the raw scores is doomed from the "high judge/low judge" effect. What was needed was some sort of way to normalize the effect that a particular 500 point flight in the midwest might get a 575 at the Northwest regionals, for the same quality of flight. No one is arguing too much about the individual results of particular contests, but the point ranges are wildly mismatched when you look at it across the country. Not that the flights that get 600 are dog flights - this is David, Chris, Paul, and Howard we are talking about - but you might get exactly the same results with David and Chris scoring 525 somewhere else.

   This is also the fundamental flaw with the existing PAMPA "score ranges", and the WAM system where they originated. Ted has made the point that we shouldn't have made Skill Class Aerobatics official without some at least a reasonably defensible method better than just counting on raw scores, when everyone is not competing against the same judges. But here we are, with everyone stacking up in Expert and most of the participants having no chance to ever finish in the money again.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2018, 03:57:08 PM »
This is what many of the posts above are alluding to, they are all right in there thinking and feelings.  I don't think we need another Skill class but a rethinking on how and when to move up would be a great idea.

I've been thinking about this for a long time, (at the “Big Contests) it might be a good idea to have a qualifying flight (Just like the Nat’s) to see where you are ranked.  For example, after the first round you you can make up a % of the top flyers and restrict the entry's into expert class (I know, what if they had a bad engine run).  Most of the flyers had better have there stuff together and put in a good flight, after all we are talking about Expert PA pilots.

Years ago Dick Byron come up with a ranking system that really wasn't a bad idea.  He was put down by so many people about this idea it wasn't funny at all.  Granted, it was a lot of work and required constant work and mostly submitting timely contest scores to do all of this correctly.  But Dick was willing to do this and set it up.

Having said that, I think a qualifying flight would work at the Bigger Contests and provide a more realistic ranking of the pilots that put in the time to fly the Expert Skill Class.  “Just Food for thought”.

Later,
Mikey

 
I think that most of us that are hashing out this issue have long passed the point where collecting trophies is why we do it.  My last "win" was 51 years ago in 1967 a year before I was invited to see the world and well before the skill classes were adopted.  When my adventures "across the pond" ended I landed in a city that was blessed with world and national champions.  Winning was not an option.

There is a huge difference in wanting to win and needing to win and we are all different.  Making the top 20 as #20 at the NATS would mean more to me than winning Advanced and I will still fly every chance I get if can't even get to another NATS.  In my mind I have had an extremely successful season this year going from last place with a 395 on my 3rd pattern since I returned to next to last with a 435 a month later to third from last with a 498 this fall where the top scores from some top fliers were in the 550's.  That was winning to me.  To the next guy that would be the epitome of losing.

How are we going to structure a system that serves both?  I don't think we can.  Using winning to move up might mean that you were the only one to get your engine started at some of our smaller contests and placing 4th might mean you beat 15 others somewhere else.

Personally, I think we have an imperfect system that may just be the best one as is.  I do like the idea of a periodic amnesty to let the lower end of each bracket move down if THEY so desire but with some safeguards if they would immediately be the top dog in that bracket.  There rightfully should be some overlap at the fringes.  I am not so keen on dropping back to Advanced just because you're beginning view 60 degrees as "close enough" to overhead or not having to add extra fuel to give you time to get out to the handle so the engine doesn't quit in the clover is a good day.

Expert to me is more than just a score, it represents mastery of the sport and there are many of us who have mastered the sport but can no longer perform as we did and most likely never will again.  A separate class is asking too much but maybe a separate award to recognize the top "old fart" in the draw....maybe a T-Shirt.

Ken

I posted this before I read Bret's comments.  As usual he has nailed it.  I did rethink one word that I used above - "Master".  I meant that relatively, no one has yet to "Master" Stunt to perfection and I doubt anyone ever will.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:17:56 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2018, 04:23:15 PM »
Hi Brett,
Yes I know Dick's system was full of holes but it might have worked with more tweaking and more contest scores to normalize the standing.  You might be right that it would still show the same and/or close to your graph.  Now how do we fix this and normalize the standings all over the country so pilots know when it is time to move up? 

There seems that there is no firm set policy for this.  Would raising the Expert score to 525 or 550 really help much or at all?  Not trying to argue with you or anyone else but it would be nice to have a firm rule or policy to follow?

Later,
Mikey


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2018, 04:49:25 PM »
There seems that there is no firm set policy for this.  Would raising the Expert score to 525 or 550 really help much or at all?  Not trying to argue with you or anyone else but it would be nice to have a firm rule or policy to follow?

   That was my original idea - but only as "cover" because I wanted to have an excuse to allow people to go backwards into the redefined classes. What I found, to my amazement, that almost no one knew that the break points were even in the rule book at all, and those who did, figured it caused the judges to attempt to bracket the scores based on the class. Just changing it to a higher number would really mean almost nothing aside from giving people who went from Expert to Advanced some excuse/explanation - "well, I was really an expert flier, but they redefined it, so this is where I ended up" rather than having to admit that they were uncompetitive otherwise.

   The alternative was to create a "Masters" class. All that does is shift the classes up one, Beginner can stay the same (so a bunch of people in Illinois don't get mad at me for deleting their brainchild), it already has no or almost no entrants so the fact that it exists doesn't really affect anything. Intermediate is like beginner used to be when it was the full pattern. Current Experts can stay where they are, no explanations required, Advanced fliers stay where they are,  David and I can duke it out in Masters every other weekend like normal (and it's OK if there aren't any trophies bought for it...).

     Yet another alternative was to adopt the old WAM rule for the new Beginner and get rid of Intermediate -  do the full pattern, you get 25 pattern points, if you do the maneuvers you elect to do or the Midwest Beginner pattern, and you get 15 pattern points. That gets rid of beginner and combines the two least-attended classes with some way to reward people for the effort of attempting everything. So Masters, Expert, Advanced, WAM Beginner - no new classes, minor rules change, we don't have to argue about scores.

     I am sure there are other variants on this theme that don't require something mathematically unsupportable. The score ranges give the illusion of objectivity, but unless you do something to even out the scoring from place to place, it's just an illusion.

      Brett

Online Jim Hoffman

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2018, 04:54:01 PM »
I am one of the guys who scores well at GSSC and am part of the 2nd tier group of Expert at GSSC.
I prefer to stay in Expert for several reasons.

1)   I want to see how I rank w/ the top tier guys
2)   I want to bang heads with my peers in the 2nd tier (the results clearly show who they are)
3)   I DO NOT care about yet another trophy to put in a box.

The demographics of our event have resulted in a significant group of skilled stunt flyers who can’t/won’t do what it takes to win at GSSC.   I can live with that. 

Jim Hoffman
BTW the score list is wrong, Jim Aron and I tied on our hi score and he beat me by half a point on the other flight

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2018, 05:23:44 PM »
The demographics of our event have resulted in a significant group of skilled stunt flyers who can’t/won’t do what it takes to win at GSSC.   I can live with that. 

     It would still be optional/voluntary, so you could elect to enter Masters if you wanted (that was what was wrong with Peabody's version from 25 years ago). And, you and Jim, etc, weren't the guys I was thinking of, particularly. I would never make anyone who wanted to have a go at the brass ring be excluded.

     I decline to give examples because I think the principle is more important than the details.

     Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2018, 06:18:29 PM »
WOW!!!!!
Take a look at the top four in expert. 2 1/2 points separating the top four!
And that’s without Brett and Ted competing.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Behold that three of those four are either students of Paul Walker or Paul Walker himself.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2018, 06:32:13 PM »
And now back to the diversion. 

Perhaps a metric of how people are ranked in each contest, rather than scores, could improve Byron's system and the skill class scheme.  That's what we do for Nats finals judge selection and for Nats seeding.  Better yet, keep track of whom each person beats, weighting how recently the beating takes place.  Nobody's going to collect any data, though. 

One beef I have with skill classes is their names.  I fly in the Expert class, but I'm no expert.  Also, I see people flying Beginner who have been flying for 50 years.  Just assign numbers to the classes.   
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2018, 07:49:45 PM »
And now back to the diversion. 

Perhaps a metric of how people are ranked in each contest, rather than scores, could improve Byron's system and the skill class scheme.  That's what we do for Nats finals judge selection and for Nats seeding.  Better yet, keep track of whom each person beats, weighting how recently the beating takes place.  Nobody's going to collect any data, though. 

One beef I have with skill classes is their names.  I fly in the Expert class, but I'm no expert.  Also, I see people flying Beginner who have been flying for 50 years.  Just assign numbers to the classes.   
That is a good idea if the reporting is timely and consistent.  Now instead of points we could argue about the ranking algorithm.  I wrote a system that did this once.  It was for a bookie.

How do you handle the 550+ flier that only competes locally and never gets the chance to fly against a top 10?  I don't think there is a perfect system and changing it all the time only creates a new set of problems and inequities.  Do Brett's one time amnesty and move on.

Ken
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2018, 09:00:33 PM »
Hey I wanted to be there and fly with all you Guy's, but Jim Hoffman wouldn't let me fly his OTS model.  He still pissed at me for letting me fly it last time lol.

Later,
Mikey

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2018, 10:52:09 PM »
How do you handle the 550+ flier that only competes locally and never gets the chance to fly against a top 10?

I'm pretty sure that most locales have pilots in the top 10, or who at least go to the Nats.  So if your local ace regularly beats someone who regularly comes in 25th in the qualifying rounds at the Nats, and regularly gets beaten by someone who generally comes in around 10th in qualifying, then at that point you can look at relative scores, do some ciphering, and probably know how he'd do when he does show up at the Nats.

(We have one guy who flies strictly locally, and flies pretty darned good -- I'm fairly sure he'd make it into the top 20 with ease, although he'd have to up his game a bit to make it into the top 5).
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2018, 12:15:08 AM »
I'm pretty sure that most locales have pilots in the top 10, or who at least go to the Nats.  So if your local ace regularly beats someone who regularly comes in 25th in the qualifying rounds at the Nats, and regularly gets beaten by someone who generally comes in around 10th in qualifying, then at that point you can look at relative scores, do some ciphering, and probably know how he'd do when he does show up at the Nats.

(We have one guy who flies strictly locally, and flies pretty darned good -- I'm fairly sure he'd make it into the top 20 with ease, although he'd have to up his game a bit to make it into the top 5).
A lot of sports use a national ranking system of some sort.  It only really works if you have a lot of participation and the top contenders compete frequently against each other.  We are fragmented.  There are maybe 5 Nats quality fliers in Dallas right now that are still active.  6 if I get my act back together.  That is a pretty small number but it is still big compared to most places.

Ken
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Online Jim Hoffman

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2018, 06:14:25 AM »
Mike -
I remember that weekend.  Fun road trip to LA.  I still have that airplane and you are always welcome to take a run at me with it.  BTW, I've loaned it to other talented stunt flyers, but you are the only one to beat me with it. 


Come to VSC and fly it again. 

Jim Hoffman

Offline James Holford

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2018, 06:28:40 AM »
A lot of sports use a national ranking system of some sort.  It only really works if you have a lot of participation and the top contenders compete frequently against each other.  We are fragmented.  There are maybe 5 Nats quality fliers in Dallas right now that are still active.  6 if I get my act back together.  That is a pretty small number but it is still big compared to most places.

Ken
District 8 is full of Top 20 pilots :):) gimmie 2 more years and i can be added to the list ( that was a joke)

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2018, 12:11:55 PM »
A lot of sports use a national ranking system of some sort.  It only really works if you have a lot of participation and the top contenders compete frequently against each other.  We are fragmented.  There are maybe 5 Nats quality fliers in Dallas right now that are still active.  6 if I get my act back together.  That is a pretty small number but it is still big compared to most places.

Ken

That actually raises a different, interesting point -- if you're in an area where there's no one showing up at local contests who have a chance at making the top 20 ever, should you have no pilots in Expert with everyone else in Intermediate or Advanced?  Or worse, one guy in Expert while all the lower-ranked pilots are having the fun?
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2018, 12:27:57 PM »
Hmmmm?  Sounds like maybe the old Junior, Senior, Open classes based on the calendar rather than a couple hundred different judges' opinions over the country's surface wasn't such a bad idea after all. 

After all, there is much less basis for argument over the outcome of a contest where the only measure of the pilots' skills were the result of the same judges' opinions as to his/her performance on the day of the meet based otherwise only on the recognition of their dates of birth.

Ted

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2018, 12:42:30 PM »
Hmmmm?  Sounds like maybe the old Junior, Senior, Open classes based on the calendar rather than a couple hundred different judges' opinions over the country's surface wasn't such a bad idea after all. 

After all, there is much less basis for argument over the outcome of a contest where the only measure of the pilots' skills were the result of the same judges' opinions as to his/her performance on the day of the meet based otherwise only on the recognition of their dates of birth.

Ted
Are you actually Captain Obvious?  It did work.  However, that transition from Seinor to Open was brutal.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2018, 04:45:12 PM »
Hmmmm?  Sounds like maybe the old Junior, Senior, Open classes based on the calendar rather than a couple hundred different judges' opinions over the country's surface wasn't such a bad idea after all. 

After all, there is much less basis for argument over the outcome of a contest where the only measure of the pilots' skills were the result of the same judges' opinions as to his/her performance on the day of the meet based otherwise only on the recognition of their dates of birth.

     For the Nationals, I agree with you, naturally, and I think it was a very big mistake to change from "Open Sportsman" as Dave Cook had it, to the official "Advanced" class at the NATs. It was even bigger mistake to have Expert, which had the apparent net effect of removing about 20 participants on average - as the people who flew Expert were from Advanced, and when Expert went away, those people did not come back. Getting rid of Open and replacing it with Expert (as I incorrectly expected to happen, when one of the two inevitably had to go) lets in the parasites trying to sell RTF and custom-built models to turn it into FAI Junior.

     But I can see multiple problems trying to JSO at local contests. One example - if you do JSO at Golden State, say, you wind up with 41 entrants in Open, 0 in Senior, and 1 in Junior. Try to do it all on Sunday, and that is *82* flights the judges have to look at. So you might want to do is split the field, run a single round of 41 on Saturday, a single round of 41 on Sunday, and both flights have to count. That starts having the same issue as a WC, with rounds lasting 6-7-8 hours, and if you get the "hard" circle on a day with bad weather, you are dead, you are in great danger of wild ballooning, so the draw matters, etc. You have to have 4 completely dedicated judges, no contestants judging other classes, since there aren't any.   

    The NATs addresses all these issues acceptably well, by requiring large numbers of dedicated judges, 4 circles, and 4 days of actual competition. Note that the size of the Open field at the NATs is usually about 40 entrants, too.

   That's just the logistics issue - putting everyone in Open also makes the effect I am trying to cure worse, or much worse. Now, our former Beginner entrants are pitted against David/Paul/Chris every other weekend, and the chance of meaningful competition is distant at best. If everyone is OK with that, then why do we have skill classes at all? I still think it is a good idea to have intermediate levels of achievement and reward making a different at a local level. I am trying to figure out a way to restore that to a working system, which I think it was in the 70's-80's. It appears to be largely non-functional now - very soon we are going to have a few guys who could only marginally get through a pattern in March (whom I again decline to name) be pitted against double-digit NATs and large regional contest winners with decades of experience due to being pressured to enter Expert.

    I think there are about three big factors that have caused this- first, Midwest Beginner Pattern replaced  PAMPA Beginner. With all due respect to the late (and unquestionably great) Bill Zimmer and crew, the effect was to create a class for one or two people a contest, and compressing it from 4 to 3. It probably solved the original purpose, but now Intermediate looks an awful lot like the former Beginner, Advanced looks like the old Intermediate, and it pushed a lot of people who would formerly been good Advanced fliers into Expert which is the issue at hand.

   Second  - widespread availability of unlimited and easy-to-use engine/propulsion packages. Everybody's engine almost always runs pretty well, and always puts out far more than sufficient power. This reduced the amount of experience and "craft" required to get an acceptable run - literally anyone with $400 or so is set. This is radically different from most of the history of stunt (and why I get so frustrated when people keep trying to do it the old way, and going out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot). You can fly in wind you can barely stand up in - also reducing the skill required to develop before getting "pretty good" at stunt.

   Third - same thing with expert assistance - always available at any level at any time of day, and direct access to National and World champions who will tell you exactly what they do, why they do it, and how to do it in any amount of detail possible.

   This makes it vastly, vastly easier to get to the level of "pretty good" stunt flier, i.e. consistently recognizable shapes, acceptable sizes, and acceptable quality flights in even rough conditions. Those alone shove the new flier into at least Advanced, because Beginner is generally a one-time experience, and Intermediate is usually won by the guy who doesn't run out of gas and remembers all the tricks. Do that 2-3 times in a row, and you are peer-pressured to Advanced, get a few months of practice and good help, and you are winning Advanced, too, and then you get pressured into Expert - with as little as a single season of experience. I was pretty sharp, had good help and it took me around 10 years to do that, now we have people blowing through in a season or two. And then they are going up against the "stunt as a life choice" types forever.

    I still think that using skill classes at the local level should be examined for utility, and I can't see going to JSO just from the standpoint of logistics, not to mention the effect I am discussing getting much worse.

    I have another alternative (run everyone in one class, in heats, and let the scores sort it out), but that has some logistical issues, too.

    Brett
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 05:58:33 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2018, 05:38:55 PM »
That actually raises a different, interesting point -- if you're in an area where there's no one showing up at local contests who have a chance at making the top 20 ever, should you have no pilots in Expert with everyone else in Intermediate or Advanced?  Or worse, one guy in Expert while all the lower-ranked pilots are having the fun?


I'd say that one guy in Expert should stand down and coach, trim, coach, trim, and encourage the heck out of those guys and gals in Intermediate and Advanced. Just seems logical, right?  y1 Steve
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Golden States Results?
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2018, 06:04:54 PM »
One way to smooth the curve is to require everyone above the deflection point (around 575 looks like) to fly with the opposite hand.

Also, the real cause is that you have an abundance of people who have done this a long time.  Little wonder it is getting stacked up!  (So maybe make trophy awards based on the deflection points?)

Figure out how to increase the Intermediate and Beginner entries and then everything looks to be back in proportion.   ;D


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