stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Brent Williams on October 22, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
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Any word on the results from the Golden State competition going on this weekend?
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Yeah, we "stay-at-homes" Wanna' know! C'mon guys...please?
Randy Cuberly
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I would like to say a huge, ginormous thanks to Brian, Bob, the Judges and Everyone who was responsible for putting on this fantastic event.
Surprising to find "Evil" Paul Walker the winner as his plane is an inline setup and we all know they dont work.
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Expert
1-Paul Walker
2-Howard Rush
3-David Fitzgerald
4-Chris Cox
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Was the weather ok? I was across the Sierras from there, headed North, and it was ugly all the way home, with 50+ mph westerly winds to rain, snow, rain, more snow, more wind, and finally lots of rain and wind in the Cascades. Two days of hard 10+ hour drives, but we had to get home as we were running out of our old folks meds. I had hoped to go by Madera, but didn't have time.
First time I've ever seen an 18-wheeler stop in the freeway (Hwy. 395) and back into a side road so he could park it, faced into the wind. He did a good job of that, thankfully. South of Lone Pine, CA. It's not uncommon for big rigs to get blown over in that area. I figured he was empty or light, and was tired of driving on only the right side 9 tires. :( Steve
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Expert
1-Paul Walker 598
2-Howard Rush 589.5
3-David Fitzgerald 589
4-Chris Cox 588
2-4 very close.
1st round mostly still air
2nd round light breezes
Brett Buck had his plane flipped over by a passing thermal and broke the HT. Took it home to repair "properly" to fly another day. Tough "break".
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I wish I could have been there to help Brett fix his ship; he helped me fix my Crossfire at a Nats a few years ago when a dust devil picked it up and slammed it into the ground.
From what they tell me, it was pretty much the same thing, the difference being that this was a fill 67-ounce airplane full of engine, tank, 11 years of oil-soaking. They also told me that it made a mighty sound when it broke, that tail was built to last and has carbon veil at the foam/balsa bond line and SGM silkspan on the outside.
It's a slightly more difficult problem than your fuselage, but the same sort of deal. In this case, it *probably* would have been OK to do something very similar, except with 15-minute epoxy or foam-safe Hot Stuff. But what I am going to do is to make some long and skinny diamond-shaped joiners out of 1/64 plywood, maybe 2" long and 1/4" wide, insert them between the foam and the 1/32 balsa sheeting right at the bond line, then glue it all back with 2-hour epoxy. That way I don't have to put fiberglass on the outside and I can safely maintain fibers at the break. Then refinish.
It would have been entirely possible to do this at the field and I was sorely tempted because I know I could have done a much better flight and I was second-to-last and tied with Howard (he and I flew back-to-back very early in the morning). This was the same setup I have seen end up winning time after time at Golden State, and the same as in 2015 when I did win, except I didn't have 18 mph wind to assist me. The problem was that I was also judging Advanced, and that appeared like it would be a conflict. As it turned out, there was an extended break for lunch and then a delay of some sort starting the second round of ADV and INT, so it would have been enough time.
Conveniently, most of the break is across the red trim color and the 1/2" wide white strip along he fuselage, so I can just sand down the red, repaint that, then just the strip along the fuse. The problem is the color match of the paint. I have been using Klass-kote color with 40-year-old Superpoxy hardener from a rusty can, which is almost opaque amber/brown, and that works OK to match the yellowed, almost beige, white paint.
Actually, the only place it will be clearly visible is a ding on the top of the wing where it landed on top of the fuel can, it's in the middle of a field of white and will be impossible to match. One might considered doing a "fueling hatch" but the entire idea was to not do anything like graffiti and it would look out of place. At this point, I think I will probably just do the best I can and just let it be how it is.
It won't pick up any weight because it already has a chunk of lead (that has been there from the very first flight) right under the stab and that can go. I will also replace the pipe with a spare since it is it is almost made from JB Weld at this point.
Brett
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I want to say how grateful I am for everyone responsible for putting on GSSC it is one of my favorite contest destinations. Unfortunately I hadn't flown my Strega since April 2017 due to broken crankshaft. With new crankshaft installed October 13, I flew the Strega again days before the GSSC. I had a personal best score of 512.5 at this event in advance. I am very excited about the future with this combination of Strega ARF and Stalker 81 RE. It performed so well in the wind I wasn’t anxious about the wind. This combination didn’t care about the wind so I learned as the day progressed not to care about the wind either.
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Thanks Charles. You have really improved you flying over the last few years. Congratulations.
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Thanks Charles. You have really improved you flying over the last few years. Congratulations.
Thank you Russell.
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Great job Charles. Imagine what it will be like when you get another 200 training flights on it!
Good to see you do so well.
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Good to see that Jimby and David were there, and flying. I was very concerned about them, due to the fires in the Napa Valley. Thanks for posting the scoreboard pictures, Charles, giving us that tidbit of info and peace of mind. y1 Steve
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Great job Charles. Imagine what it will be like when you get another 200 training flights on it!
Good to see you do so well.
Thank you Paul. Another 200 training flights will happen god willing. I am imagining smaller maneuvers and at or near 45 degrees and lower bottoms.
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Snip!
Surprising to find "Evil" Paul Walker the winner as his plane is an inline setup and we all know they dont work.
Fer sure, Uncle Bob. What were the odds some guy named Paul Walker could have won a contest with, oh--let's say--an Impact!
Thus doth the world tilt on its axis! :o :o y1
Ted
p.s. Just teasin' you, Bob (in case the intended cleverness doesn't appear as obvious to the readers as it did to the writer!)
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Was the weather ok?
The weather, with one brief exception, was great. The last two years have been an aberration, the usual issue with the central valley in mid-October is dead air, and we have had that many times over the 25-30 years. In fact, most of the day on Sunday was like that, and I had the *very light* air in my face about half my first flight.
Brett
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What were the odds some guy named Paul Walker could have won a contest with, oh--let's say--an Impact!
Well, I didn't!
It was not an Impact!!!!
First radical departure from that platform, and it works pretty well.
AR barely over 5. Go figure that would work. Even David could fly it well.
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What were the odds some guy named Paul Walker could have won a contest with, oh--let's say--an Impact!
Well, I didn't!
It was not an Impact!!!!
snip
Which, of course, was exactly my point. You're not agreeing with Uncle Bob's implication that you couldn't have won the contest with a mere Impact are you?? That doesn't sound at all like the Paul Walker that took on the world with a B-17!
Ted
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Go figure that would work. Even David could fly it well.
You win Stunthangar for today.
Brett
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You win Stunthangar for today.
Brett
And with that, Paul just move up a spot on the biggest smart-ass in stunt list.
Congratulations Paul!!
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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And with that, Paul just move up a spot on the biggest smart-ass in stunt list.
Congratulations Paul!!
I had planned on informing the committee of this outstanding post and recommending at least a step or two up in the rankings, but I see you already took note.
Congratulations, Paul, and keep up the good work!
Brett
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Again, as we all know, inline setups don"t work.
Don't ever try one, as it is a waste of time.
Oh, why didn't I listen to everyone who told me that??
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Again, as we all know, inline setups don"t work.
Don't ever try one, as it is a waste of time.
Oh, why didn't I listen to everyone who told me that??
Exactly
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Again, as we all know, inline setups don"t work.
Don't ever try one, as it is a waste of time.
Oh, why didn't I listen to everyone who told me that??
Good thing fer sure!
The concept ranks right up there with backward propellers as the ultimate path to stunt nirvana. Not sure which one should top the list. hmmmmm.
Good thing guys like former Russian Champions and Bob Baron among others didn't take credit for in-line-ism decades ago when they competed successfully with them. Anyone wanting to get a jump on the latest must have path to the Walker Cup can start by picking up the Russian designed KA10 kit (sorry, old timers keeps me from recalling the Russian designer) if still available after all these years from Tom Dixon.
Ted (with tongue firmly planted "in-line" between my teeth and cheek)
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Again, as we all know, inline setups don"t work.
Don't ever try one, as it is a waste of time.
Oh, why didn't I listen to everyone who told me that??
Say what! But, but... I had dreams, I had a vision. I even have plans!
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Say what! But, but... I had dreams, I had a vision. I even have plans!
[/quote]
Oh well....
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So where's the photographic evidence? Huh? Huh?
Dave
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Well I've heard lot's of people say over the years, that "Paul Walker could fly a Wheel Barrow and win". However I watched him fly one at VSC last year after spending most of the week trimming it and He only managed to finish 5th. So there!
Incidentally...One of the best flying airplanes I've flown over the years was one of Lou Wolgast's "Mirage's" designed sometime in the early 70's and very much an INLINE design. It was published in FM!. And somehow it really works! He's recently built a new one and surprise...it works too! So There!
Go Figure!
Randy Cuberly
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Another inline that'll surprise ya... S?P
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Another inline that'll surprise ya... S?P
Well, not entirely.
I made an effort to have the center of mass on that same line.
The PBY, the center of mass can't be inline with the engine, wing, and HT.
But it is interesting, none the less!
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Well, not entirely.
I made an effort to have the center of mass on that same line.
The PBY, the center of mass can't be inline with the engine, wing, and HT.
But it is interesting, none the less!
10-4. I suppose I could have added a rubber raft to the top.
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10-4. I suppose I could have added a rubber raft to the top.
Good one, Warbird Go for it!
Also noted you appear to have done the right thing with the ship's vertical "tether" location in the general vicinity of its center of mass. Looks like a fun ship.
Ted
p.s. To be actually considered "in-line" in the manner we're discussing wouldn't it be the center of pressure of the vehicle that should be "in line" with the other three properties (thrust/wing/tail)? A rubber raft filled with air wouldn't add much "mass" but, if large enough for the whole flight crew, would certainly elevate the center of pressure and create a positive pitch issue as a result...maybe require a little "De Tails" postulated positive incidence in the stab? y1 y1
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I've got you all beat; my F-105 Thunderchief was an inline stunt design that was built in 1971 and published in FM in 1973. It flew amazingly well. Bill Werwage's Geo-Max - which later became the first Geo-XL - was also an inline ship.
So there... ;D
Bob Hunt
Bob,
Is that a Tropicaire tail in the bottom left corner of the second photo?
Curt
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Bob,
Is that a Tropicaire tail in the bottom left corner of the second photo?
Curt
A Formula S maybe?
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I've got you all beat; my F-105 Thunderchief was an inline stunt design that was built in 1971 and published in FM in 1973. It flew amazingly well. Bill Werwage's Geo-Max - which later became the first Geo-XL - was also an inline ship.
So there... ;D
Bob Hunt
I built and flew a GeoXL for several years and it is a wonderful flying airplane. However it isn't completely an "Inline design. The wing and stab are "inline" but the thrust line is 3/4 of and inch above the wing and stab centerline. It is a little tricky obtaining good control symmetry but not impossible within a total of about 60 degrees.
I went and checked the plans to be sure since the airplane was stolen several years ago and is not available for evidence!
So there!
Randy Cuberly
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That photo was taken at the 1972 KOI in Jacksonville. Les and I had a duel there with our tricycle gear ships. He won that round (narrowly!).
Always enjoy these old pics. Those were the days, lots of cool slick canopies and detailed cockpits. New designs popping up all the time too, all of it being rare stuff anymore.
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Hi Randy:
The one Bill published in Model Aviation was not the original Geo-XL, and I suspect that is the one you built. The first one was a rebuild of his Geo-Max, and it was indeed an inline ship. It even had a side mount engine, so everything was centered on one line. If he had incorporated retracts it would have been even better! That original (first) Geo-XL was never published...
Bob (so there!) ;D
Hmmmmm...I did indeed build the published one! In fact I used one of your great "Lost Foam Wing Jigs" to build it. Still have that Jig and have built a couple of wings for other people using it. If I had any sense I'd just build another one. The airframe builds very light in spite of being a large airplane at about 720 sq. in.
Mine finished with a Surgeuy Belko .56 (11.5 oz with muffler) in it at 54 oz.
I suspect that unless you used a side mounted engine, or moved the thrust line up like mine was there might be some difficult trim problems.
Rats, thought I had caught you! Guess I have to start getting up earlier!
Randy Cuberly
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From what they tell me, it was pretty much the same thing, the difference being that this was a fill 67-ounce airplane full of engine, tank, 11 years of oil-soaking. They also told me that it made a mighty sound when it broke, that tail was built to last and has carbon veil at the foam/balsa bond line and SGM silkspan on the outside.
It's a slightly more difficult problem than your fuselage, but the same sort of deal. In this case, it *probably* would have been OK to do something very similar, except with 15-minute epoxy or foam-safe Hot Stuff. But what I am going to do is to make some long and skinny diamond-shaped joiners out of 1/64 plywood, maybe 2" long and 1/4" wide, insert them between the foam and the 1/32 balsa sheeting right at the bond line, then glue it all back with 2-hour epoxy. That way I don't have to put fiberglass on the outside and I can safely maintain fibers at the break. Then refinish.
It would have been entirely possible to do this at the field and I was sorely tempted because I know I could have done a much better flight and I was second-to-last and tied with Howard (he and I flew back-to-back very early in the morning). This was the same setup I have seen end up winning time after time at Golden State, and the same as in 2015 when I did win, except I didn't have 18 mph wind to assist me. The problem was that I was also judging Advanced, and that appeared like it would be a conflict. As it turned out, there was an extended break for lunch and then a delay of some sort starting the second round of ADV and INT, so it would have been enough time.
Conveniently, most of the break is across the red trim color and the 1/2" wide white strip along he fuselage, so I can just sand down the red, repaint that, then just the strip along the fuse. The problem is the color match of the paint. I have been using Klass-kote color with 40-year-old Superpoxy hardener from a rusty can, which is almost opaque amber/brown, and that works OK to match the yellowed, almost beige, white paint.
Actually, the only place it will be clearly visible is a ding on the top of the wing where it landed on top of the fuel can, it's in the middle of a field of white and will be impossible to match. One might considered doing a "fueling hatch" but the entire idea was to not do anything like graffiti and it would look out of place. At this point, I think I will probably just do the best I can and just let it be how it is.
It won't pick up any weight because it already has a chunk of lead (that has been there from the very first flight) right under the stab and that can go. I will also replace the pipe with a spare since it is it is almost made from JB Weld at this point.
Brett
You know, you could just build a new one. 🤔
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Billy is holding his Geo-MAX. That is the plane that is all inline.
Bob
Are plans available for this one ?
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I think I should mention that the KA-10 is not a pure inline design.
Close, but still... ;)
Engine and stab are indeed in line, but wing center is ~ 8mm below that.
Gerard Billon kindly measured that for me on his original, built by Kolesnikov:
(https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.netax.sk%2Fhexoft%2FWC98%2Ffull%2F205.jpg&sp=c83c944950186755032704a9d8f4d3e2)
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Not to my knowledge, Allan, but you could just modify the existing Geo-XL plans to be all inline. That would work fine I'm sure.
Later - Bob
I'm sure Bob is right...(Bob is usually right). However I would add that the one I built from plans was a very, very good flying airplane. As good or better than anything else I've flown and I've flown some championship quality airplanes of past National Champions! The Plans are available from MA (I think).
In fact all this discussion has inspired me to build another one right away and use a RO Jett 67 on a header muffler for motive force! This low RPM Tractor should be the perfect engine for it!
By all means if you're going to build one of these things get a lost foam jig from Bob Hunt to do it. I can't imagine building this very light wing without it!
Randy Cuberly