Author Topic: Time and time again (Read 3366 times)

RC Storick · « **on:** February 25, 2011, 09:10:55 AM »

Everyone VOTE on the BOM poll. Over and over I run this poll to show the anti BOMers where they stand. Now its at 77% for the BOM. Vote and be seen. Lets hash this out and put it to bed.http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=20659.0

john e. holliday · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2011, 11:06:34 AM »

Have put in positive vote.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2011, 11:15:49 AM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on February 25, 2011, 09:10:55 AM

Lets hash this out and put it to bed.

Robert, my friend, you are one optimistic guy! They're going to keep picking and keep picking on the hopes that either everybody will give up and let them have their way, or get someone so irritated that they will get yelled at. Then they can at play the victim. That will at least make them big-shots among their buddies.

Brett

Randy Powell · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2011, 03:14:06 PM »

Well, some find it amazing that there are those out there that don't agree with them. And even more amazing that it's a vast majority.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2011, 08:45:34 AM »

As the local contests usually run pretty smooth, maybe this should be brought up at the NATS for only the NATS contestants to take part in. Be interesting to have it video taped.

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2011, 09:14:02 AM »

I voted.

I'd written an agreement with Brett for the other thread, but decided not to post it, remembering the futility of posting the same points previously so often on SSWF, never to have them even addressed, let alone refuted in this continued harangue. Maybe when I'm in a bad enough mood, late at night, I'll cut and paste it into that cacophony. There must be some attraction in that unpleasantness; it's catching.

SK

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2011, 11:05:50 AM »

Quote from: Serge_Krauss on February 26, 2011, 09:14:02 AM

I voted.

I'd written an agreement with Brett for the other thread, but decided not to post it, remembering the futility of posting the same points previously so often on SSWF, never to have them even addressed, let alone refuted in this continued harangue. Maybe when I'm in a bad enough mood, late at night, I'll cut and paste it into that cacophony. There must be some attraction in that unpleasantness; it's catching.

SK

You know, its interesting to me how this follows political thinking in this day and age (NO, no political discussion, just drawing a parallel PLEASE!).
1. In t3he "anti" camp it is their basic belief that we of the "pro" camp simply don't understand their position and if we did we'd be converted, or;
2. We are simple and closed minded and our opinions are outmoted therefore irrelavent.

I find both frustrating because these modes of thinking are circular and inpenetrable. In other words, discussion is futile.

If there was ever any doubt, I am of the "pro" camp, never have any of the points I've tried to make over the years been aknowleged and discussed by any "anti"s, only over spoken with the same lame contentions about loack of enforciblility, more participation, no time to build, etc, etc.

Write a proposal, submit it and accept the outcome. This "ain't" rocket science gentlemen.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2011, 11:06:47 AM »

Just really don't care anymore, I feel the stunt community should do whatever is necessary to make stunt as inclusive as possible. A good example was Marvin Denny's idea but it ain't worth getting into arguments over. Everyone has strong feelings about BOM and no amount of discussion is going to change anyones mind.

Jerry Leuty · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2011, 11:40:16 AM »

My next door neighbor and I were talking about this just yesterday. We have been friends and flown together since the 8th. grade, some 50+ years now. Dave also has flown pattern in R/C. Our SIG and of course Scale are the only SIGs in the world to hold to a BOM of any type that I know of. I have nothing to complain about. I build all my own planes and most from plans using alternate foam building materials. But that is a whole nother story. I have tried two ARF Noblers in the past and never got a full pattern out of either of them. One hit the trash can last year and the other was donated to a boy's ranch out in Abilene, Texas that Mike Gibson heads up. BTW, if you have lots of support equipment and or planes, kits, etc. Mike can put all this stuff to good use. He works with teenage boys is getting them on a better path of life. Anyway, my ARFs did not work out for me. Some, a few, have flown them in contests without much success. If I were dead serious about any of this stuff, which I am not, I would get a reputable paint man to finish my planes to a show room finish and then go claim it all myself. I mean Who would know? I am sure that some of this goes on anyway. Since I have never attended a Nats I cannot say. It is only speculation. It is hard to comprehend that every Advanced and Expert entry out there is built and finished by the pilot anyway. So now I get it. The official flight is only the fruit of the pilot as a hobbyist as a whole. My friend next door never built his own planes until he was nearly grown. His dad like to build his planes for him. Meanwhile we kids built our own Clowns and Ring Masters and Fire Cats. Dave was flying T-birds and Noblers built by his dad. So what? My planes will garner some 12 or 13 points in static judging. That is a mere 7 or so points off of perfect 20. If I can fly that thing into near perfect corners in the reverse wingover then I have made up those few points in the first few maneuvers. What I need is a couch. I enjoy the flying aspect of this hobby but I keep practicing the same mistakes over and over again. Then again for me it is all about the total enjoyment of the dreaming, designing, building, finishing, and flying of these miniature airplanes. Keep the BOM if that is the pleasure of the majority and lets get back to flying.

jim ivey · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2011, 01:44:01 PM »

I say the same let em fly, But no ground points unless you build your own. That way they could fly, they just couldn't possibly win. Since ground points are part of pattern points, or they were, maybe still are. They would lose all appearance points and pattern points. I doubt if anyone could win giving up that many points. Make ama change the rules! Simple solution.

jim.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:02:07 PM »

The first time I saw this issue was in 1964, a scant 45 years ago. I decided then that I did not want to be a stunt flier or belong to their organization. Over the years I see the argument has gone on and on with no resolution. It is to bad that this sport is so full of country lawyers. This argument is hurting the sport and really needs to stop.
Well that is just my idea.
I will not be reading any responces or answering any because frankly I do not care.

Larry

RC Storick · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:25:01 PM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on February 26, 2011, 06:02:07 PM

It is to bad that this sport is so full of country lawyers. This argument is hurting the sport and really needs to stop.
Larry

I totally agree. Everyone needs to play by the rules and quit whining

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:37:46 PM »

And believe it or not, this is not a new issue! I have read in the old magazines (40's and 50's) where guys complained about people building and entering models built from kits!

I kid you not. Scale flyers at the time thought less of you if you didn't draw up your own plans! The NATS should be left alone. It's part of the process of determining a true National Champion. Local and regional contests are already allowing bought and borrowed models with no appearance points, and some contests don't award appearance to anyone. As far as I can see it, the discussion/argument has always been around and will probably always be around in some shape or form. Like I just mentioned in another reply to a post on the other forum, it's part of our history and also human nature!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Florissant, MO

Bill Little · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:00:03 AM »

Well, all, if you think about these lyrics, it seems to sum it all up. I have probably stated my point too many times and too bluntly (and I probably am in disagreement with one of my VERY best friends, but I love him like a Brother anyway

), but think about this:

Quote

Cold hearted orb
That rules the night
Removes the colours
From our sight
Red is gray and
Yellow white
But we decide
Which is right
And
Which is an Illusion

"We" decide, and the "We" is the majority which constantly says "keep the BOM" at the NATS, in the age groups. All other contests for CLPA in the USA allow ARF's, ARC's, "Bought", "stolen", "donated", "dug out of a trash can" and any other way obtained models to fly.

So unless you really, really want to win at the NATS, you're covered. And at least more and more of the local contests don't even award AP! I, to this day, do not understand what the bickering is about, or what is "not understandable" about that, unless the flier just has to have a trophy (they are pretty cheap and loose their value over time unless it is the Walker Trophy or Wooley Cup). Either way, depending on what part of the country you live in, or how much you like to drive, you can probably get in close to two dozen contests a year and never build your own model, and do it legally.

Only one contest in the WHOLE USA is affected by the BOM, in only three classes, and it only affects much less than 100 contestants? Come on, get real. NO ONE is stopped from flying in the age groups really, except by themselves. Just go ahead, spend 1 hour less (give or take) watching TV, or on the computer, 5 days a week, and you will have a model finished before the next year's NATS. As of now you have approximately 5 months before THIS year's NATS, anyone could do it by then.

IF you really, really want to win at the NATS then build a plane or lie about it............ only YOU will know the difference. It really seems the "anti" group is working on the "Illusion" part of the lyrics above.

It's gonna take more than ARFs, ARCs and any other type of MODEL AIRPLANE to "grow" CLPA, and it ain't gonna "grow" but so much, regardless of what we do. It's just not going to be a "hobby" for as many people as it once was when we lived in a MUCH simpler time. Give away 1000 RTF CLPA planes and see just how many will end up wanting to take the time, effort, spend the money (a LOT!), get off work, travel, live in a motel, and go spend a week at the NATS. More than once. Not many, if any, No way, No how. Call your next case.

Bill

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:34:19 AM »

Quote from: Robert Storick on February 26, 2011, 06:25:01 PM

I totally agree. Everyone needs to play buy the rules and quit whining

~>Shouldnt that be 'whineing', ? I before E except after C ? would explane the origin of WHINGING as an alternative .
Though one day I had a co-worker (both exagerations) say to me " I just Dont Know what this word Snivleing pom Means "
Maybe its spelt Snivel ? which would remove the spelling problems .

RC Storick · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2011, 04:42:15 AM »

Forks we have another genius

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2011, 06:06:15 AM »

Someone's off his meds again.

(Observation from a fellow meds taker.)

Bill Little · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:42:45 AM »

Naw, when Matthew is concerned, I can never completely understand his writing. His native dialect is kinda like trying to understand the people I was born with up in the mountains!

Once you get the hang of it, it's all good.

Big Bear

P.S. If it's "ME" who's "off his meds"..........

W.D. Roland · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:50:30 AM »

Matt is top notch guy!
Matt

Much good thinking you do my friend

David

wwwarbird · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2011, 05:12:41 PM »

Quote from: Matthew Spencer on February 27, 2011, 01:34:19 AM

~>Shouldnt that be 'whineing', ? I before E except after C ? would explane the origin of WHINGING as an alternative .
Though one day I had a co-worker (both exagerations) say to me " I just Dont Know what this word Snivleing pom Means "
Maybe its spelt Snivel ? which would remove the spelling problems .

Actually whining, without an E, is the correct spelling. And yes, the whiners in this world seriously need to trim the lace off of their panties.
I feel very strongly that all of the whiners in this world are the core reason that our country is in the shape it's in right now. This problem has been quietly snowballing for years, and it's about to bite us all in the a-- big time. Everyone wants to be rich and live the easy life, but they don't want to do anything for it. They feel it's owed to them. WHY?

IMO, this country desperately needs to get back to the morals and values of the 1940's etc. and get back to being some true a-- kickers that simply don't take anyones s--t. There's a reason it's looked back on as the Greatest Generation. There is a quote that I've seen outside of here recently that says "A generation which ignores history has no past and no future". I couldn't agree more. We are currently living in a generation where the majority remembers none of the huge sacrifices and lifestyle changes our predecessors made. Cough your b---s out people, quit whining, and take some responsibility.

As far as the BOM is concerned, it really annoys me that it's even up for debate. It only is up for debate because of the whiners. BUILDING and FINISHING these models is a major part of the heritage of the hobby/sport and should be viewed with RESPECT. I have huge respect and admiration for those who possess the ability to build and finish to supreme levels, and am greatly inspired by them. I try, but will never be a 20 point finisher. Without whining, I still admire and respect those who are. They deserve to be acknowledged for their efforts and abilities, and should be.
Like the above quote look at it this way, a group of Control Line competitors which ignores history has no past and no future. Things like this are all relative, and all the whiners are why so many good things no longer exist. Removing BOM would just be the first step in losing the hobby as we know it and as it should continue to be. I always remind that no one makes anyone participate in this competition, it's a choice. It really is simple, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME, DON'T PLAY IT. Turn the channel like some say. Don't choose a hobby or competition that has defined rules in place, with a great history and heritage, and then whine to get them changed when you realize you can't compete. The thing to do would be to work to get better at it. If you feel compelled to whine about it please don't, just go back and select yourself some new laced panties.

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:26:58 PM »

Well said Wayne, I agree.

Dennis Holler · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2011, 08:50:45 PM »

Just want to say, I'm a NOBODY.... Retread...Never flew at a contest or anything and just trying to come back after a loooooong time... to fly and have some CL fun. Just want to say... If you don't build it........ and I mean all of it....you don't deserve to fly it in a contest.......I never been nowhere, but I belive that!

I've never had an ARF and don't want an ARF. This is one of those things where history and " the way it used to be" is important, well at least to me anyway. I never met George Aldrich but just scanning old mags lets one know that it is part of the game to at least build your plane and the true stars of the past did more, they designed what they won with. We should all strive for that. Sure many may not be capable of all that or not be willing to put the time in.. but that's what it is all about.

This is a great site with so much knowledge from so many great guys.... how on earth could anyone not want to try to design something and fly with it, or at least build it and fly it.

All I've ever done is build a few kits... I hoping my next step is building from plans, got a few Jack Sheek's plans I love (FW190 and Stuka) and beyond that I have a dream.... a long standing dream of designing and building stunt Lancaster.... and I know I'm a ways off from being ready for that but I'm still getting info and socking stuff away for when and if that time comes.

Well, anyway... the snow is melting and I hear my club has a meeting next week... so Spring is near and its time to fly!

Guess my point is I don't know squat, but I know we need BOM...

jim ivey · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:15:56 PM »

danny lutzes1/2 A scale cessna was a kit. He won the nats a couple of times. Jim sterlings F=51 mustang control-line scale was a kit He won a couple of times in the 50s he wasn't related to the kit mfr. even though it was a srerling kit. nice guy so was danny. mustve been a 40s rule like having to melt toothbrush handles in acetone to make glue!!!! jim