glow fuel

[dennis lipsett]

While I don't fly glow modells anymore  something caught my attention. The cost of fuel is through the roof, thats no new news but the pricing is steadily escalating. Casually looking at stuff for sale, the prices on glow fuel stands out. For instance a gallon of 30% nitro fuel from Cool Power is about 135.00 to $150.00 a gallon. That is truely an eye opener that the days of glow powered engines are doomed to the collectors shelf. Ebay is of course the worst of the lot and will skin you alive on pricing their goods. obviously some retailers or outlets could offer fuel at a discount but it would still be pricey.
I'm just puzzled why no one has considered using straight fAI type fuel with no nitro. Granted it would probably require a new type of engine with a higher compression head then what we currently use. some current models could get by with just the head change.
I'm not looking for a bated discussion on the topic, just thinking out loud.

[Tom McClain]

The best I have found so far is VPI Racing in Texas. They have GMA 10/22 and I purchase it here in Phoenix through Empire RC 60 gallons at a time to get the club discount. So far I have paid $30.00 a gallon. That was 2 months ago.

[Jim Svitko]

Although the cost of nitro is a factor, do not forget the oil.  I use 5% nitro most of the time and rarely need 10%.  We tend to look at the cost of nitro while forgetting about the oil.  I went to a motorcycle shop some time ago to see if they could get Klotz for me.  They can get it and it will cost me $60 a gallon.  This was for the Klotz product that is 80/20 synthetic/castor blend.

The last time I bought nitro and methanol from a local supplier, the nitro was $40 a gallon.  The methanol was $4 a gallon.  I have not needed either for a while so I do not know what they would cost now.

I have not bought any ready-made fuel in quite some time.  Although the component costs are rising it is still cheaper to buy the ingredients and mix my own blends.

[bill bischoff]

Are you sure this is not the price for a case of 4 gallons?

[John Rist]

I went to the Morgan Fuel web sight and Cool Power is $55/gallon 10%.  Don't know shipping cost.  I suspect a 4 gallon case in minimum  buy.

[Dave_Trible]

I've recently bought stuff to make fuel and it works out to something reasonable .

My buddy and I split 5 gal. of nitro.  The price for 5 gal. was $ 330.00 which will make 50 gal. of 10% at $6.60 per.
A gal. of Klotz Technoplate on Ebay $ 53.96  You may find it cheaper somewhere.
A four gal. case of castor oil from MakeYourOwn.buzz  $68.25
If you can locate a VP dealer near you you can get a 5 gal. pale of M1 methanol for about $60.00.

The quantities don't scare me-I can burn close to 20 gallons a year.  However if you can pool together your club or at least several friends you should be good to go.  $1.50 jugs of windshield wiper fluid (poured out if not used) will provide good grade plastic jugs.

Dave

[frank mccune]

     Hello All:

     Dave is correct.  Mixing your own is the way of the future if one flys glow engines.

     Stay well,

     Frank

[Jim Svitko]

If the weather is favorable I am going to a contest this weekend.  Gasoline for the round trip will cost me about $60, assuming $2.50/gallon.  Lodging for two nights, about $260, plus taxes.  Room rates are pretty high this weekend at the contest site due to other events in the area putting demand on rooms.

When I add in food and other incidentals, I will spend at least $350 without putting up one flight.  My cost to mix my own glow fuel is about $17 a gallon.  That is at the latest component prices I paid some time ago.  Even if I burn that entire gallon (not likely) this weekend, glow fuel cost is not a concern.

No matter what the hobby, it will cost you.  At one time, I was active in competition pistol shooting.  I reloaded my own ammo.  Now, with the panic buying of factory ammo, guns, bullets, primers, and powder, prices are thru the roof, if you can find the components.

I have no answer other than to enjoy what you can while you can.

[Brett Buck]

If the weather is favorable I am going to a contest this weekend.  Gasoline for the round trip will cost me about $60, assuming $2.50/gallon.  Lodging for two nights, about $260, plus taxes.  Room rates are pretty high this weekend at the contest site due to other events in the area putting demand on rooms.

When I add in food and other incidentals, I will spend at least $350 without putting up one flight.  My cost to mix my own glow fuel is about $17 a gallon.  That is at the latest component prices I paid some time ago.  Even if I burn that entire gallon (not likely) this weekend, glow fuel cost is not a concern.

   Agreed, *travel costs* are the big ticket item.  I get glow fuel for $29 a gallon off the shelf in the hobby shop. - it cost me ~$40 to go get it!  I would add that the last time I got gas with no Safeway discount, last week, it was 14 gallons at $4.56 a gallon - $64. I don't even want to say how much I am paying for a room at the NATS, not to mention the $400 of gas it takes to get there and back.

I have no answer other than to enjoy what you can while you can.

   Things do not last forever, but - people are still shooting Kentucky long rifles, pulling wagons with horses, and going on pretend cattle drives. Almost nothing ever ends completely.

    Brett

[Jim Svitko]

I wonder when batteries will go through the roof?


Motorman

Give it time.  Demand will only increase when it is mandated that we have to drive all-electric vehicles.  Some auto makers have already said they will stop manufacture of internal combustion engine vehicles and transition entirely to electric.  If something is a "must have" then you know it will be expensive.

Motor vehicle production is adversely affected by the microchip shortage.  I expect to hear about shortages of the components needed to make batteries.  Supply and demand always rule.

I just got back from the auto performance shop where I get my methanol.  I was surprised to see the methanol was still $4 a gallon.

[dennis lipsett]

Give it time.  Demand will only increase when it is mandated that we have to drive all-electric vehicles.  Some auto makers have already said they will stop manufacture of internal combustion engine vehicles and transition entirely to electric.  If something is a "must have" then you know it will be expensive.

Motor vehicle production is adversely affected by the microchip shortage.  I expect to hear about shortages of the components needed to make batteries. 
Supply and demand always rule.
I just got back from the auto performance shop where I get my methanol.  I was surprised to see the methanol was still $4 a gallon.

I'm curious about one thing. If you have an electric vehicle and you live in a rural town where people park on the street where they live and houses are inline on a street. Obviously you will not have your own charging station. So I presume that the local governments will install charging stations at every parking spot and you pay every evening to recharge your battery. Sounds ike a real money maker for the local governments. wonder if you could get a tax credit for it?

[Tom McClain]

Glow plugs at mike goes flying are $7.00 and at SIG are $8.00.

[Tom McClain]

Ford dealers will charge your all electric Ford at the dealership supposedly for no cost.

[Jim Svitko]

I'm curious about one thing. If you have an electric vehicle and you live in a rural town where people park on the street where they live and houses are inline on a street. Obviously you will not have your own charging station. So I presume that the local governments will install charging stations at every parking spot and you pay every evening to recharge your battery. Sounds ike a real money maker for the local governments. wonder if you could get a tax credit for it?

Something I expect to see is a mileage tax.  At first, the mileage tax was proposed to make up for less motor fuel being sold due to improved fuel mileage.

With an increase in the number of all-electric vehicles, the argument will be that electric vehicles are using the same roads and those vehicle owners must pay their fair share for road maintenance.

[Tom McClain]

The new Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttiegieg has already asked for a usage or mileage tax coupled with a carbon tax.

[Dennis Toth]

Maybe its time to look at using modern ignition systems running gasoline/oil. If you run a Hall effect sensor (eliminating the mechanical points) coupled with a transistorized package, high voltage coil with lipo batteries you could get a very effective setup at a competitive total weight. It would be interesting if some of the electronic guys could work on this and see what could be developed.

Best,    DennisT

[Don Jenkins]

I'm just puzzled why no one has considered using straight fAI type fuel with no nitro. Granted it would probably require a new type of engine with a higher compression head then what we currently use. some current models could get by with just the head change.
I'm not looking for a bated discussion on the topic, just thinking out loud.

Tom Dixon has been using FAI fuel in all of his Stalker engines for quite awhile, just change head shims.  Although even less expensive and easier, GO ELECTRIC, the writing is on the wall!  Like my Dad use to say "I only keep hitting myself in the head with a hammer, because it feels good when I stop."  Just saying!

Don

[Will Hinton]

Guys, don't forget Randy Rich at Riches Brew.  Randy has always been resonable when compared to other suppliers.

[Tom McClain]

Tom Dixon has been using FAI fuel in all of his Stalker engines for quite awhile, just change head shims.  Although even less expensive and easier, GO ELECTRIC, the writing is on the wall!  Like my Dad use to say "I only keep hitting myself in the head with a hammer, because it feels good when I stop."  Just saying!

Don

Electric is not less expensive. It may be more. So, show me the stats to prove it.

[Brett Buck]

Tom Dixon has been using FAI fuel in all of his Stalker engines for quite awhile, just change head shims.

    There is no need to change the head shims because they are designed to run on FAI fuel to begin with. Unlike competitive stunt engines.

     Brett

[BillLee]

It will be interesting to see how folks handle the first power outage (like California in the summer or Texas when the next snow comes) and all of the cars are electric.

Oh, forget that! The grid won't be able to support electric powered transportation in the first place, so we'll all be sitting at home anyhow.  😐

[EddyR]

Sig fuel listed today at $21.20 gal for 20% castor 5% nitro.
  Is this a old add?

https://sigmfg.com/collections/fuel/products/sig-fuel-with-castor-oil?variant=380863905801

[Paul Wescott]

Maybe its time to look at using modern ignition systems running gasoline/oil. If you run a Hall effect sensor (eliminating the mechanical points) coupled with a transistorized package, high voltage coil with lipo batteries you could get a very effective setup at a competitive total weight. It would be interesting if some of the electronic guys could work on this and see what could be developed.

Best,    DennisT

Here’s a 40-sized engine that runs on gasoline with NO ignition system:

https://www.mikegoesflying.com/shop/airplane-engines/gf6-side-plane-gasoline-engine/

Paul W.

[Don Jenkins]

Electric is not less expensive. It may be more. So, show me the stats to prove it.

Tom,

First, let me begin by stating I’m not claiming to being an expert in anything, but I am pretty good at budgeting my family’s income, my wonderful wife ensures that!  I have a PA .75 powered Dreadnought.  The total cash outlay for its power system was $700.  Break down as follows; PA .75 - $500, CF Muffler - $85, 3 Blade CF prop - $52, Spinner - $35, 8 oz tank - $28.  My last gallon of 10% fuel cost $37.  At 8 ounces per flight that’s $2.31 per flight or $231 for 100 flights.  Total cost for 100 flights with this plane is $931.

My first electric plane is a full-size Vector.  The total cash outlay for the power system including a battery charger and 4 batteries was $560.  Breakdown as follows; Cobra 3515 motor - $55, 65 amp ESC - $70, KR Timer/programmer/switch - $64, APC prop - $6, spinner/collet - $15, battery charger - $190, 4 batteries at $40 each - $160.  Each battery, if well taken care of, can yield upwards of 100 flights.  That’s 40 cents per flight for 400 flights!  Total cost for 100 flights, using one battery with this plane is $440.

My second electric plane is a Dreadnought (it’s almost ready for clear).  The total cash outlay for the power system including 4 more batteries was $370.  Same break down as the Vector, except I already have a battery charger.  Total cost for 100 flights using one battery for this plane is $250.

In summary, based only on my limited experience of what I have purchased, built, finished, and flown, electric power systems deliver the same performance as equivalent high end IC systems at a lower cost.  Even if I only get 50 flights from a battery, it's still significantly less expensive.

Tight Lines!

Don

[Dennis Toth]

Paul,
That is pretty interesting and not to big for our use. Seems like it is all in the glow plug design for it to run well on gasoline. Might be a bit larger head fins to handle extra heat from gasoline but looks interesting.

Best,   DennisT

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Tom,

First, let me begin by stating I’m not claiming to being an expert in anything, but I am pretty good at budgeting my family’s income, my wonderful wife ensures that!  I have a PA .75 powered Dreadnought.  The total cash outlay for its power system was $700.  Break down as follows; PA .75 - $500, CF Muffler - $85, 3 Blade CF prop - $52, Spinner - $35, 8 oz tank - $28.  My last gallon of 10% fuel cost $37.  At 8 ounces per flight that’s $2.31 per flight or $231 for 100 flights.  Total cost for 100 flights with this plane is $931.

My first electric plane is a full-size Vector.  The total cash outlay for the power system including a battery charger and 4 batteries was $560.  Breakdown as follows; Cobra 3515 motor - $55, 65 amp ESC - $70, KR Timer/programmer/switch - $64, APC prop - $6, spinner/collet - $15, battery charger - $190, 4 batteries at $40 each - $160.  Each battery, if well taken care of, can yield upwards of 100 flights.  That’s 40 cents per flight for 400 flights!  Total cost for 100 flights, using one battery with this plane is $440.

My second electric plane is a Dreadnought (it’s almost ready for clear).  The total cash outlay for the power system including 4 more batteries was $370.  Same break down as the Vector, except I already have a battery charger.  Total cost for 100 flights using one battery for this plane is $250.

In summary, based only on my limited experience of what I have purchased, built, finished, and flown, electric power systems deliver the same performance as equivalent high end IC systems at a lower cost.  Even if I only get 50 flights from a battery, it's still significantly less expensive.

Tight Lines!

Don

, I prefer to look at it a bit differently, a jug of fuel contains 128 oz. my LA 46 requires about 4 oz. per flight, that's 32 flights from a $30.00 jug of fuel. My electric 40 size stunter flys on a 3000 ma 4s that also cost about $30.00 and as you said I get more than 100 flights out of it, so it's no contest after initial layout for batts and chargers, electrics are by far cheaper.

[Crist Rigotti]

Don't forget that electrics are going to get better!

[Dave_Trible]

If it don't stink and don't grunt it ain't no fun..................


Dave

[Reptoid]

It's really too bad when someone misreads a price and posts that the "sky is falling" on glow fuel. Fuel is readily available from several sources and is still in the $30/gal range for what most of us use regularly. You can avoid hazmat fees from some sources by buying it in Qt bottles by the case instead of gallons. You can also order through your club or hobby shop in large quantities and Companies like VP Power Master will send it on a regular delivery truck to their retail dealers on their truck with the dealers normal monthly restock saving hazmat and shipping costs. If Cool Power wants $55.00 a gallon, don't buy it. They've never been that pleasant to deal with anyway, seemingly preferring to sell all there products in Australia. Sometimes you can work with a local hobby shop that doesn't normally carry what you want (for example: they carry all RC blends but you want GMA 10%) One of the few local shops left told me that Sig requires him to order 16 cases of fuel in order to not pay shipping/hazmat. 64 gallons is a pretty hefty order for most mom/pop shops but if he has to pay shipping/hazmat he has to charge a ton for the fuel.

Batteries have a limited cycle life span. It costs money for electricity to charge them. Electric motors, ESC's and speed controllers cost money. Some require a palm pilot or laptop to program and none of those individual items last forever. Motors will need bearings replaced just like IC engine. As for an accidental short during storage. well.....price of your home, shop, or car
As for electric cars here's what it cost to replace a Tesla Battery damaged from rocks/gravel on highway (Not covered by warrantee) Concern: Customer states vehicle is not responsive.

 HV Battery (Remove & Replace)

A long list of parts is included, since there’s more stuff needed for a battery pack replacement than the battery itself. Notable parts include wiring harnesses, the skid plate, and battery coolant.

The biggest item is still the battery itself, of course.

ASY,HVBAT,75KWH,AWD,KELVIN,1PH,M3,RMN(1 13737501-K): $13,500

Labor: $2,299.27

Parts and labor combined, it cost nearly $16,000 to replace this Tesla Model 3’s battery pack.

Breaking it down, Tesla shop rates may vary from location to location, but the location this was performed at runs $175 per hour, meaning the battery replacement job is estimated to take a little over 13 hours.

The $13,500 customer price for the battery pack isn’t exactly indicative of Tesla’s cost to build one, either—there could be a margin on the part to help cover costs or create profit. Additionally, there’s an important three-letter code present on the battery line-item: RMN, short for remanufactured

[Don Jenkins]

    There is no need to change the head shims because they are designed to run on FAI fuel to begin with. Unlike competitive stunt engines.

     Brett

I'm assuming Tom Dixon set up my Stalker .61 to run on 5% Nitro as well as my Stalker .66.  He also gave me various head shims to "tinker" with to get what I needed based on my fuel choice.  Otherwise, I think he still "tinkers" with head shims to get the best of each Stalker engine based on the type and weight of each plane, using FAI fuel.  What set up are you using with the Stalker engines you use?  The attached photo is my original design I called the Vertigo, Stalker .61 powered.  Bad name, it only lasted 65 flights and one contest.  Flew pretty good until pilot error!

Don

[Tom McClain]

Paul walker talked about the dollar outlays of electrics to fly several flights in a day one day after another. You will need several battery packs for the day and/or at least one intelligent charger for home and one in the field to have enough charged battery packs to fly that day. So with your airborne rig and your ground support equipment, you have a sizable dollar investment to enjoy the day.

Just like electric cars, electricity is not free.

I have gone back to 35 to 40 size stunt ships and have purchased my power plants from eBay for substantial cost reduction in engines such as OS 35s and 40FPs. I have found only one engine I could not restore as the RC flyer ran the OS 35 super lean and melted the piston skirt and warped the sleeve.  A crockpot with anti-freeze did wonders to remove baked on castor, carbon, and tarnish on the rest.

I earlier created a thread listing where to find low cost good quality materials. So I can build and fly for much less than the 60 powered ships of the past generation.

It all depends on the flyer/competitor. If you want electrics or big 60 ships that’s your choice. But, don’t tell everyone that one is less expensive when it isn’t and one is the only way to compete when I have seen the truly superb flyers use 35 to 40 size ships and blow away the competition. I.e. Paul walker, billy werwage, bob whitely, bob hunt, Bart klaplinski, Keith Trostle, etc.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Paul walker talked about the dollar outlays of electrics to fly several flights in a day one day after another. You will need several battery packs for the day and/or at least one intelligent charger for home and one in the field to have enough charged battery packs to fly that day. So with your airborne rig and your ground support equipment, you have a sizable dollar investment to enjoy the day.

I keep forgetting that a lot of guys here only fly C/L, I fly RC as well and bought all this stuff including a small generator for travel years ago, I'm also very fortunate that our field has  solar 12 volt power stations so to fly all day all I need is 3 batts.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Checked with Sig earlier.  Fuel prices are stable.

[Neil Rogers]

The way I see it, the cost of batteries, esc, timer, motor, and charger is the entry fee to fly electric and has nothing to do with the cost of flying.

People talk about the cost of glow fuel and equate it to a cost per flight, but don't factor in the cost of the PA engine, the tuned pipe, the header, the fuel tank, the glow plug, or the ni-starter.  Those costs are the entry fee to fly a modern IC powered model.

You pay the entry fee for the system that you want to use and it is then a sunk cost.  Then you look at the day-to-day operating expenses.  A $30/gal. jug of fuel is good for about 20 flights or $1.50 per flight.  An electric stunter uses about 35 watt-hours of power.  At $0.10/kWh that works out to $0.0035 per flight.  Even if your power cost was $1.00/kWh, the cost per flight would only be $0.035.

[Bob Hunt]

I swore to myself that I would stay out of threads like this one. Alas, I cannot even keep the promises I make to myself..

This thread morphed from one that was apparently intended to be a discussion about the cost of glow fuel and where one could find fuel at a reasonable cost. But, like many threads on this forum (or on any forum), it took a turn towards being a vehicle to once again bring a note of contention into the mix. I guess that's just human nature; to try and convince everyone else of the wisdom of our own personal choices.

I had hoped that the glow/electric conversation had long since been buried. What exactly does it matter what provides the impetus to spin the prop on our toys? Be it glow, electric, steam, nuclear, or two chipmunks on a small turntable, isn't the goal to just have fun flying our models? 

I made the switch to electric years ago because it seemed logical to ME and MY situation. I never was much of an engine guy technically, and was very blessed to have friends who could setup my engines to run competitively. And, I have nothing bad to say about glow power; it was pretty good to me over the years...

A number of responses here reference the difference in cost between glow and electric. As my very dear friend, Dean Pappas often says, "There is only one hobby... Spending money!" Does it matter how much it costs to fly a single flight, wet or dry, if the flier is getting the performance and enjoyment he/she is seeking, and doesn't even mind or consider the cost? Is it somehow more wise, prudent, logical, noble, etc. to be able to proclaim that you spent more or less money having fun than the next guy/gal? 

If you want to know my feelings about electric power and why I choose to use it, give me a call. I'll be glad to list the many reasons. On the the hand, if you want to know why someone else uses glow power, just ask them. I'm certain that if you asked both an electric flier and a glow flier you will get two very logical and factual lists of attributes. Then choose what works for YOU and go have fun.

Can we please put the glow/electric discussion behind us and just all enjoy flying our models together in harmony?

Soap box stored... Bob Hunt       

[George Grossardt]

I've recently bought stuff to make fuel and it works out to something reasonable .

My buddy and I split 5 gal. of nitro.  The price for 5 gal. was $ 330.00 which will make 50 gal. of 10% at $6.60 per.
A gal. of Klotz Technoplate on Ebay $ 53.96  You may find it cheaper somewhere.
A four gal. case of castor oil from MakeYourOwn.buzz  $68.25
If you can locate a VP dealer near you you can get a 5 gal. pale of M1 methanol for about $60.00.

The quantities don't scare me-I can burn close to 20 gallons a year.  However if you can pool together your club or at least several friends you should be good to go.  $1.50 jugs of windshield wiper fluid (poured out if not used) will provide good grade plastic jugs.

Dave

Dave, where did you get your nitro?

[Reptoid]

Dave, where did you get your nitro?

I have posted this before but I'll repeat for those who didn't get it.
You can buy a product called 50/50 from VP racing. Any dealer that carries VP products can get it for you with their normal delivery of other products. It comes in a sealed 5 gallon drum of 50% Nitro/50% Methanol. Current price is around $110. (about $12.50 for 2.5 gals Methanol ($5/gal) and $97.50 for 2.5 gals Nitro ($48.75/gal) Simple math will allow you to make any percentage nitro fuel you want up to 40% nitro/20% oil. There are many reasons why it's so much cheaper than buying pure nitro among which is; any fuel dealer can stock it.

[Dan McEntee]

I have posted this before but I'll repeat for those who didn't get it.
You can buy a product called 50/50 from VP racing. Any dealer that carries VP products can get it for you with their normal delivery of other products. It comes in a sealed 5 gallon drum of 50% Nitro/50% Methanol. Current price is around $110. (about $12.50 for 2.5 gals Methanol ($5/gal) and $97.50 for 2.5 gals Nitro ($48.75/gal) Simple math will allow you to make any percentage nitro fuel you want up to 40% nitro/20% oil. There are many reasons why it's so much cheaper than buying pure nitro among which is; any fuel dealer can stock it.

    I know you have posted this before, but I am an admitted dummy when it comes to math and percentages. You obviously need to add oil, so if you want to decant this a gallon at a time, what is the ratio of the VP mix to oil to something like SIG Champion 10% nitro? Do you need to add some methanol ?  An example please. Once my current stock of fuel starts to get low, I like the idea of this and having to store only one container, and the nitro should stay in solution well.
  Thanks a lot,
    Dan McEntee

[George Grossardt]

I have posted this before but I'll repeat for those who didn't get it.
You can buy a product called 50/50 from VP racing. Any dealer that carries VP products can get it for you with their normal delivery of other products. It comes in a sealed 5 gallon drum of 50% Nitro/50% Methanol. Current price is around $110. (about $12.50 for 2.5 gals Methanol ($5/gal) and $97.50 for 2.5 gals Nitro ($48.75/gal) Simple math will allow you to make any percentage nitro fuel you want up to 40% nitro/20% oil. There are many reasons why it's so much cheaper than buying pure nitro among which is; any fuel dealer can stock it.

It is $162.00 on the VP Racing Fuel site today.

[Dave_Trible]

Dave, where did you get your nitro?

Well my fuel partner (Jim Lee) bought the nitro and I really don't know where that came from.  There is a drag strip over in Topeka so maybe....Maybe he will see this and chime in.

Dave

[Paul Smith]

It is $162.00 on the VP Racing Fuel site today.

This is simple 4th grade arithmetic.

Assuming that the nitro cost is $162 per gallon, that's $1.27 per OUNCE for nitro.

If you accept that a gallon is 128 ounces, 10% nitro is 12.8 ounces of nitro per gallon of fuel.
So the nitro cost of 10% nitro fuel is $16.20 per gallon.
So you need to get the methanol and oil for $3.80 to mix a $20 gallon of fuel.

[Paul Smith]

It will be interesting to see how folks handle the first power outage (like California in the summer or Texas when the next snow comes) and all of the cars are electric.

Oh, forget that! The grid won't be able to support electric powered transportation in the first place, so we'll all be sitting at home anyhow.  😐

Electric cars will NOT impact the power grid when they are powered by throw-away carbon-zinc batteries from Red China.  It will only take about five minutes to swap out a battery pack. 

OK, so it will cost $160 to drive 100 miles, but that's  small price to pay to defeat the Great Satan, Global Warming.

[Reptoid]

This is simple 4th grade arithmetic.

Assuming that the nitro cost is $162 per gallon, that's $1.27 per OUNCE for nitro.

If you accept that a gallon is 128 ounces, 10% nitro is 12.8 ounces of nitro per gallon of fuel.
So the nitro cost of 10% nitro fuel is $16.20 per gallon.
So you need to get the methanol and oil for $3.80 to mix a $20 gallon of fuel.

Even with simple 4th grade math, you have to pay attentiuon and start with the correct numbers. $162 dollars quoted above was for 5 (five) gallons of 50/50 not 1 gallon of nitro.

[Reptoid]

    I know you have posted this before, but I am an admitted dummy when it comes to math and percentages. You obviously need to add oil, so if you want to decant this a gallon at a time, what is the ratio of the VP mix to oil to something like SIG Champion 10% nitro? Do you need to add some methanol ?  An example please. Once my current stock of fuel starts to get low, I like the idea of this and having to store only one container, and the nitro should stay in solution well.
  Thanks a lot,
    Dan McEntee

You have to be able to do simple percentage math to mix fuel with any ingredients.. The 50/50 is just what it implies;half nitro/half methanol. You still need to get oil and methanol separately and mix whatever you want.

[Dan McEntee]

You have to be able to do simple percentage math to mix fuel with any ingredients.. The 50/50 is just what it implies;half nitro/half methanol. You still need to get oil and methanol separately and mix whatever you want.

    And that was my question. You would still need to add some methanol and of course the oil, and that is understood. If I want to make gallon jugs of 10% nitro and 20% total oil, it's dividing up the 50/50 mix that confuses me. What do you start with, a fixed amount of the 50/50 mix, or a set amount of methanol? I have never been good with math unless I have a practical use for it in a specific situation. If I don't use it, I lose it!! I can use a calculator to an extent. If a gallon is 128 ounces, 10% of that for nitro is 12.8 ounces, and the same for total oil content. It's cutting the 50/50 mix to get the right proportions is what confuses me here. Can you post a formula and an explanation of how to figure that.
    Thanks in adavance,
  Dan McEntee

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Motorman roughed that out well.  Ultimately, he found that we need 26 oz of 50/50 to make up a gallon of 10% fuel.  5 gallons times 128 oz/gallon gives 640 oz per 5 gal container.  Dividing 640 oz by 26 oz portions, that's enough to make up 25 gallons of 10%, or 50 gallons of 5%.  Dividing the $162 pail cost 25 ways gives about $6.50 for the nitro in a 10% fuel gallon, or $3.25 for 5% fuel.

[Dan McEntee]

50/50 is 50% nitro, you have to add something to that to make it 10% nitro. 20% will be oil so, if a train leaves Chicago traveling 50 mph and the Philly Fliers contests is 50/50 sat and sun you'll need 1 gallon of fuel 128 oz. 10% nitro is "meh" 13oz so 26 oz of 50/50, 26 oz of oil (20%) and the rest shall be methanol 76 oz.

http://www.nitrorc.com/fuelws/

Motorman

   Well, you are round up on a lot of stuff and that can come back to bite you. I can figure percentages of 128 ounces, but how did you come up with the 26 ounces of 50/50 mix? That is the question I have been asking. Like your teacher told you in grade school show your work!! How did you come up with the 26 ounces of 50/50 mix?  Everything else is just jiberish in an attempt at humor. Don't talk down to me, teach me!! The web site you posted is for spiking existing fuel to start with, and we are not talking about that here . So, again, HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THE 26 OUNCES OF 50/50 MIX?  And is that a rounded up number? Don't say it's close enough. I have seen "close enough " get people hurt or killed!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Dan,

Here's how he came up with 26 oz of 50/50:

A gallon is 128 oz.

A tenth of a gallon is 12.8 oz.  This is the "move the decimal" trick.  For 10% nitro fuel, a tenth of a gallon of nitro is needed.

12.8 oz rounds to 13 oz for ease of calculation.

Since the 5 gallon pail is 50/50 nitro/methanol, we need to double 13 oz to yield 26 oz of 50/50 required.

Wasn't that simple?  Easy to do in your head with motorman's method, too.  If you wanted to double 12.8 oz, that 25.6 oz., not that much harder.

Sorry for the levity, but 26 oz vs 25.6 oz is "close enough for government work," a popular saying among contractors here in the DC reion.

Peter

[Daniel_Munro]

I've not been burning much glow fuel since I went electric. But a few years back I was getting through a litre or two every weekend. Have always mixed my own. Just had a look online, it doesn't appear that prices have risen at all here in NZ. A quick calculation based on the prices I see at the local hobby stores has me being able to make 5% nitro fuel at $8 a litre or $30.40c a gallon. Bear in mind that is NZ dollars so equates to approx $21 USD per gallon.

I have a new model on the bench that'll be glow powered. I'll be using a Stalker .76re and plan to use zero nitro fuel so it'll work out slightly cheaper than that figure.

Mixing your own fuel is definitely the way to go to save $.

[Trostle]

We are starting with a 50/50 alcohol/nitro mix to start with.  Yes, there will need to be a lot of oil (castor or a castor/synthetic mix) added to get the nitro percentage down, but not has been discussed about how much alcohol must be added to get the desired nitro/alcohol ratio.  If you are just adding oil, you will still have a 50/50 alcohol/nitro mix in that oil.

Keith