GIVING AWAY POINTS AT HUNTERSVILLE

[EddyR]

 Goug Taffinder and myself judged the 12 Advanced flyers yesterday at the Huntersville contest. Saturday was very windy but Sunday was almost perfect weather so poorly done stunts were the pilot's responsibility. There were three maneuvers that were done poorly by most flyers. The triangle was flow with a huge bottom. Tops were not to bad but the bottom was twice the size needed. The hourglass were horrible. Most flew the first leg almost straight up and had a tinny top but then flew the last leg way off to the right. The bottom was huge again like the triangle. The overhead eight was flown incorrect by everyone. No one came back to center at the top where the loops touch and all did a X never getting the model straight to start the second loop. Everyone gets the last loop correct to exit the maneuver and they think they have done all of it correct. They all seem to worry about the loops being the same size but miss the intersection.
 There was one 40 point take off as most got to flight level at 1/2 lap. Most flew very well but these were the most common stunts that all seemed to get incorrect in a big way and with a helper to watch a flight they are not hard to correct.

[Randy Ryan]

Goug Taffinder and myself judged the 12 Advanced flyers yesterday at the Huntersville contest. Saturday was very windy but Sunday was almost perfect weather so poorly done stunts were the pilot's responsibility. There were three maneuvers that were done poorly by most flyers. The triangle was flow with a huge bottom. Tops were not to bad but the bottom was twice the size needed. The hourglass were horrible. Most flew the first leg almost straight up and had a tinny top but then flew the last leg way off to the right. The bottom was huge again like the triangle. The overhead eight was flown incorrect by everyone. No one came back to center at the top where the loops touch and all did a X never getting the model straight to start the second loop. Everyone gets the last loop correct to exit the maneuver and they think they have done all of it correct. They all seem to worry about the loops being the same size but miss the intersection.
 There was one 40 point take off as most got to flight level at 1/2 lap. Most flew very well but these were the most common stunts that all seemed to get incorrect in a big way and with a helper to watch a flight they are not hard to correct.

Pretty common errors, I've seen the same thing at our local contest and others. We always try to deduct accordingly and give some feedback when we can. We try to never give "free" points.

[jim welch]

Maybe you ought to make this it's own forum topic section and blast everyone who attends a contest and flys badly by your standard.This is surely gonna help stunt in general by blasting everyone who flew at the Huntersville contest in advanced.Glad i didn't come back sunday and my wife was a better choice to spend the day with.

[Eric Viglione]

Whoah... easy there Jimmy! When I was an early Advanced flyer, I'd have killed to get some feedback from an experienced judge while the contest was still fresh in their mind.

Most people wouldn't even bother to risk putting themselves out there to try and help people.

You chose to only see the negative side of his comment...ignoring the part where he said "Most flew very well, but these were the most common stunts that all seemed to get incorrect...". and chose not see that Ed is genuinely trying to help you.

I can assure you, I've known Ed since I was a young kid, and he did not mean that the way you took it. Blasting? Bad for stunt? Please... that is a whole lot of unnecessary drama right there Jimmy.

Stunt is hard, taking criticism is hard, and sometimes no-one is harder on us than ourselves. But when someone try's to help, with a subject about "giving away points" I would give them the benefit of the doubt, and take a long hard look at my pattern.

You think Ed is tough... you wouldn't want to be under the watchful eye of Randy Smith and the fellow attendees at one of his stunt camp's... oh my... ahahahahah... no room for thin skin there, that is certain.

There is no room for ego at stunt camp... lord knows sometimes it's not easy when I can't see the same error that they see me doing, but that is only because I am not seeing it, not because it is not there.

After seeing others flying it the correct way, and looking for the same error in your own patterns, then you finally begin to see it correctly and can begin to fix it.

It can be a humbling experience, but well worth it and the ONLY way to really make progress.

EricV

[Randy Ryan]

Whoah... easy there Jimmy! When I was an early Advanced flyer, I'd have killed to get some feedback from an experienced judge while the contest was still fresh in their mind.

Most people wouldn't even bother to risk putting themselves out there to try and help people.

You chose to only see the negative side of his comment...ignoring the part where he said "Most flew very well, but these were the most common stunts that all seemed to get incorrect...". and chose not see that Ed is genuinely trying to help you.

I can assure you, I've known Ed since I was a young kid, and he did not mean that the way you took it. Blasting? Bad for stunt? Please... that is a whole lot of unnecessary drama right there Jimmy.

Stunt is hard, taking criticism is hard, and sometimes no-one is harder on us than ourselves. But when someone try's to help, with a subject about "giving away points" I would give them the benefit of the doubt, and take a long hard look at my pattern.

You think Ed is tough... you wouldn't want to be under the watchful eye of Randy Smith and the fellow attendees at one of his stunt camp's... oh my... ahahahahah... no room for thin skin there, that is certain.

There is no room for ego at stunt camp... lord knows sometimes it's not easy when I can't see the same error that they see me doing, but that is only because I am not seeing it, not because it is not there.

After seeing others flying it the correct way, and looking for the same error in your own patterns, then you finally begin to see it correctly and can begin to fix it.

It can be a humbling experience, but well worth it and the ONLY way to really make progress.

EricV

Well put Eric

[bob whitney]

 i have to agree with Eric on this one ,i only took possative from this post .If you really want to get the wind knocked out of your sails put  a flight in when Palto is judging (hope that is right) , but he judges everyone the same and that is all u can ask for.

[Doug Moon]

Eric V, +1!

Very well put.

Not only did the judge state what maneuvers were incorrect he stated the error trend that both judges were seeing.  One quick way to get points in stunt is to be "out of" the error trends.  Correct maneuvers stand out and get scored for it as well!

Pay attention to what he said about take off.  If you roll out the proper distance the plane should be about 18"-24"off the ground half way through the take off lap.  You should still be looking down at the plane when you are 180 degrees from your take off spot. I tend to keep it a little low, I think, but I think it's better than being a little high. It is very common to see the planes at level flight before they are opposit the take off spot. Plus this is an easy error for the judges to see. Especially if you take off in front of the judges.  They can use you as a measuring stick to see your altitude.  So many points are left on the table right from the start.  But on the flip side taking off in front of the judges gives you an advantage if you are at the 18"-24" range half way through because you are showing them plain as day that you are in fact making a gradual one lap climb to level flight.  It makes it easy for them to give you a good score on that portion.  

Just some initial thoughts on it...sorry to ramble..

[john e. holliday]

Thanks EddyR, it takes guts to post what you posted.  So ignore the one bad response.   Those that can't take criticism needs another hobby.

[Tim Wescott]

I can only disagree with the "easy to correct once you know" statement -- I've been working on all of that (and more) for a couple of years now.  Knowing still helps, but correcting isn't always just a matter of snapping your fingers and saying "d'oh!"

Popping up on takeoff seems to be a function both of not being able to hold smooth in level flight, and of flying off of grass -- my practice field has some bumps that'll hurl me into the air if I don't take off soon enough, and even then I get airborne less predictably than with good pavement.  Trying too hard not to pop up on takeoff will break props and possibly bend landing gear, until you can hold the plane to a smooth enough line that the deviations from the required 1.3% slope don't have you banging the ground.

The other problems mentioned are also harder to solve than to see.  I heard just this Saturday at a stunt clinic that you'll fly the triangles better if you concentrate on getting the sides right and let the corners take care of themselves.  I think I sorta-kinda do this already, with the equilateral triangle that I have pinned to my office wall: every once in a while I turn around in my chair, point at the triangle, and "fly" it to get the shape down.  This also helps with the bottom corners of the hourglass (getting the top right is a different story).

[EddyR]

Here are three planes that flew on Saturday. Sorry Jim I did not see you among these classic flyers. I did fly with this group and I gave away a lot of points.
 Brian Moore Stiletto, Charlie and daughter and Steve Fitton going for his winning flight.
 

[Jared Hays]

This is great news!!! I look forward to flying at the Huntersville contest in October, and it's nice to know the judges, judge by the rule book.  Also its great to see a judge giving feedback...Some contests I go to, I almost want to ask the judges their interpretation of the pattern they are looking for....Because I have been beaten by what I consider poor patterns before with overhead 8's flown in front of the flier and X style intersections and 15 foot bottoms and shotgun takeoffs.  It great to know the judging will be high caliber!

[Mark Scarborough]

Popping up on takeoff seems to be a function both of not being able to hold smooth in level flight, and of flying off of grass -- my practice field has some bumps that'll hurl me into the air if I don't take off soon enough, and even then I get airborne less predictably than with good pavement.  Trying too hard not to pop up on takeoff will break props and possibly bend landing gear, until you can hold the plane to a smooth enough line that the deviations from the required 1.3% slope don't have you banging the ground.

its also a function of handle position, when you stand upright, and the airplane is no the ground, you are naturally inputing up control,, or thats my observation,, hence my "chrouched hunter stalking" position on release,, then as I stand up slowly I naturally bring the plane up with me,, it looks kinda goofy but it works

[Shug Emery]

I like hearing this kind of feeback. Being pretty new to the Stunt Quest I have found feedback inspiring and humbling. With all those manuevers to fly it seems while getting one dailed in onother suffers...at least for me. Of late I have had trouble with the triangle so this is good feedback to read from a judge.
Getting back into this hobby last year I decided to post videos as I knew I would get feedback by presenting. Got many PMs and posts on threads giving me feed back. Yes, it is humbling but gets the brain thinking on it and eventually truly helps if you want to get better.
Last year at the Fall Carolina Criterium Contest I was taken aside by a judge after all the competition was done and prizes handed out and was debriefed on my flights. The good and the bad. I found it to be most helpful. Also, Gene Martine coached me up after the contest. Although I was flat give-out after the drive down from Minnesota and the weekend of competition (way more tiring than I would have imagined) and filming the contest, we went and flew. Though not in the best of mental and physical condition I took away some gems from Gene that I have worked on. Hope they come to fruition.
As a professional juggler I have found this type of outside critique is benificial if you let go of ego and preconcieved notions and take the suggestions. We see what we see from our active position but someone on the outside can see other things such as body positions and shapes and lengths. Take the critique. But continue to have fun and find the joy in the quest.
That's all.
Shug

[Chris McMillin]

I like a lot of critique, I can't see all of the stuff I'm doing wrong.
Chris...

[Brett Buck]

Maybe you ought to make this it's own forum topic section and blast everyone who attends a contest and flys badly by your standard.This is surely gonna help stunt in general by blasting everyone who flew at the Huntersville contest in advanced.

 Maybe there is something more going on behind this, but I see nothing particularly negative about this post. He's trying to help by pointing out common mistakes that should be relatively easy to fix. This is what stunt is- flying, getting feedback, correcting (or attempting to correct) errors, and then getting better for next time. I see nothing but good intentions and useful information here.

   I have done the same sort of thing lots of times and I know I never had any hostile intent.

   Specifically, the point about "giving away points" is one that strikes me every time I judge (which is just about every contest). No one expect David Fitzgerald-quality square 8's in intermediate and advanced, but there's no particular reason why INT/ADV can't pretty much master takeoff, inverted flight, etc. Time and again, I see the same sorts of things that appear to be just a matter of paying attention more than any advanced piloting skills - like climbing too high on a takeoff. I am pretty sure that everyone in advanced can fly around level at 5 feet for 2 laps from a physical standpoint, but lots of times, its up to 10, back to 5, constant 8 feet, etc.

   That's just an example, but for good or bad, people take a potential 35-40 point maneuver and turn it into a 28. That *10 points* which will typically take you out of the running in Expert, and makes a huge difference in ADV and INT. I don't have everyone's scoresheets, so I can't prove it, but I think I *won the NATS* by getting somewhat higher scores on the "easy" maneuvers than some of my competitors, particularly takeoff and landing. So it's a relevant point, not unfair at all.

     Brett

[Balsa Butcher]

I'm no stranger to critiques (including Brett's) but to criticize all of the Advanced competitors at a specific contest on a public forum is not good form. Right now the fliers in question are anonymous but won't be once the scores are published. This would have been better handled as an on-the-spot correction after the contest but before everyone disperses. Another consideration is that this was probably the first contest of the year for many of the contestants. With the winter weather my guess is that few have had the chance to get much practice in. More than likely their flying will improve later in the season.

[proparc]

Ed is throwing down some precious stuff here. Getting feedback like that, is what you hope for if you are serious about getting better. I am going to be relocating soon to Dallas, and I sincerely hope I can get info like Ed is handing out in light of what I am going to try to accomplish.

If you can't handle this, then Flushing Meadows New York back in the seventies, with Bob Lampione, Gene Schaeffer, Bill Simons, Big Jim Greenaway, Vic Macaluso, and Bob Hunt, would have been no place for you!!

[Balsa Butcher]

Missing the point...should have been handled at the site by speaking directly to the competitors not in a public forum to which the guilty (sic) parties may or may not have access to. If the issue is the poor flyling of Advanced competitors it could have been phrased in general terms without naming a specific contest. The comments are valid but not universal.
I have seen some pretty good Advanced flights. All have been west of the Mississippi. I've flown at Flushing Meadows and am not ashamed to say that I was more comfortable at the "Schlock Stunter" circle than at the Expert circle. A great place and meeting your stunt heros...priceless! 

[proparc]

Missing the point...should have been handled at the site by speaking directly to the competitors not in a public forum to which the guilty (sic) parties may or may not have access to. If the issue is the poor flyling of Advanced competitors it could have been phrased in general terms without naming a specific contest. The comments are valid but not universal.

Strongly disagree. What Ed did, allows people like me to copy and paste his post to Microsoft word-print it out and put it in a plastic sleeve, so I can study it in preparation for Dallas.

[Balsa Butcher]

Glad you will benefit from this post however this information could have been passed without naming the specific contest. In doing so it publically shames the Advanced contestants who participated, at least it will when contest results are posted. And unless they read this forum they won't know how bad they really are. Advanced fliers  deserve better than to be named (albeit indirectly) and publically criticized for their poor flying.

[Eric Viglione]

Missing the point...<Snip>If the issue is the poor flyling of Advanced competitors<Snip>

He never said all Advanced flyers flew all stunts poorly, YOU KEEP INSINUATING THAT!!!!! That is YOU projecting how you took it. He pointed out a common error, money left on the table so to speak.

It's funny how we can tend to zone in on only the perceived negative... and totally ignore the part where he said ""Most flew very well, but these were the most common stunts that all seemed to get incorrect..."

Show a group of people a freshly painted 100 square foot white wall, put a 1 inch black dot in the middle and ask people what they see... some will say they see a black dot, ignoring the other 99.9 square feet of pristine white wall, others will say they see a white wall with a black dot. It says a lot about how we think.

EricV

[Balsa Butcher]

I still maintain that it would have been better for the post to have been phrased in more general terms so as not to identify the individual fliers on a public forum. Glad to hear Doug Taffinder is still judging.

[mike waldron]

good

[Brett Buck]

Hey Guys!   My first post!   I was one of the guys who flew in the Advance class at Huntersville and have for the last 3 contest there in a row..  In fact.. I just started flying Adance one year ago and my first was at Huntersville last May.. I love the place and all the guys who fly there. i go there and fly with my partner and mentor Don Ogren (2014 Advance National champion) and we have a blast.  I have been working hard on my pattern and welcome all the advice from those who can see my mistakes.  I thought alot about what Eddie said and he is absolutely right..   My triangle bottoms are to long and my hourglass is a joke..  Its kinda a blob up there.. So guess what I have been working on the last two nights of practice?.  I will say.. I really thought I nailed my intersections of my overhead eight though..   But please.. Keep sending the advise I need all the help I can get! 

Oh yea...  I won with a 516

  Well done! Sounds like you are doing the right thing, and taking the information provided to move ahead and fly better.

   Here is some more advice - don't let yourself get bumped up too quickly. After you win a few of these things at local contests, you will get some pressure to move to Expert. And make it a point to attend as many contests, particularly the big ones, as you can manage. Flying a contest flight, particularly the very high-level contests like the NATs, is worth about 1000 practice flights.

    Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

Glad you will benefit from this post however this information could have been passed without naming the specific contest. In doing so it publically shames the Advanced contestants who participated, at least it will when contest results are posted. And unless they read this forum they won't know how bad they really are. Advanced fliers  deserve better than to be named (albeit indirectly) and publically criticized for their poor flying.

Honestly don't know what to say to that except PHOOEY!!! and

 

 

Anyone who is that "Thin Skinned" is going to have a really tough time of it when they move up to Expert!

Randy Cuberly

[phil c]

Tim- if you fly off of grass you need a fairly large plane so 2.75in. diameter wheels don't look silly.  Of course if the field is like a golf green it's wonderful.  But any oversize turf needs big wheels.

the wheels also have to be a bit further forward on grass.  Make adjustable gear, or gear that is swept half an inch and can be turned around to put the wheels further back for pavement.

[Chris McMillin]

I cry during debrief.
Chris...

[Brett Buck]

Tim- if you fly off of grass you need a fairly large plane so 2.75in. diameter wheels don't look silly.  Of course if the field is like a golf green it's wonderful.  But any oversize turf needs big wheels.

the wheels also have to be a bit further forward on grass.  Make adjustable gear, or gear that is swept half an inch and can be turned around to put the wheels further back for pavement.

    We fly almost every contest off of grass, but I use the same old wheels I use all the time - 2 1/4 Dave Brown Lectra Lite, and without adjusting them from the normal pavement settings. It's not like the 2007 NATs but it's not a golf green, either.

     One mistake people make time and again is to try to make the gear higher for grass. All that seems to do it cause it to tip over more easily.

     It's really all about technique. Over grass you want to take off quartering into the wind, so you can control the pitch angle right from release, and lift off at as low a speed as possible. I you try the usual dead upwind or dead downwind position used on pavement, the tendency will be to nose over. Also, you need to be able to control the airplane accurately at very low altitudes, meaning it needs to be very stable even at low speeds. You need to pop the airplane off the ground as quickly as possible, but only go to about 3-6 inches (with the wheels either just grazing the grass), then level out to the normal *very slow* climb rate. That means you will be within a foot of the ground for about a full second, and you have to be able to do it without any sort of obvious control corrections.

    Same thing with landing, you want to slow more than normal, and start grazing the tips of the grass right at dead downwind, and then float it in very slowly as you come around into the wind, to reduce the groundspeed as much as possible before you get into the grass heavily at about 60 to 90 degrees past dead downwind. Again, at the 2007 NATs, the 600x600 pad was about 6" high coarse grass, and the guys in intermediate kept trying to land 90 degrees before dead downwind as per pavement, in a substantial wind (10-12). They were going fast WRT the ground, but with relatively low airspeed, and they would touch and flip almost immediately, over and over. I gave a little instruction to some of the guys who would listen between rounds and sure enough, they were able to manage it without too many "incidents".

      Brett

[Allan Perret]

    Over grass you want to take off quartering into the wind,

Not sure what you mean by this, how many degrees is that past downwind ?

[Brett Buck]

    Over grass you want to take off quartering into the wind,

Not sure what you mean by this, how many degrees is that past downwind ?

   45 degree or so past dead downwind. Dead into it also sort of works but you can be taking off at nearly 0 groundspeed or line tension.

   In significant air, I usually take off just past downwind on pavement, as well. In really heavy conditions as much as 30 degrees.  The trick is being able to prevent nose-overs by maintaining control (and the sign of the control - which can be negative with the wind into the tail) right from the instant of release. For whatever reason, I rarely have an issue with too-rapid climbs even starting at this point.

  Dead upwind can also work on pavement and can help you keep the climb rate down.  You *do not* want launch there on grass, because you can't count on acceleration to get you up to speed before you get a significant tailwind component. You can get away with it for a while, but eventually it will bite you.

   Brett

[Allan Perret]

EddyR: Keep doing what you're doing.  I wish all judges would.