Gieseke Nobler Powerplant

[Harold Brewer]

Been looking through my stash for an engine for my Gieseke Nobler.  Don't think a Fox will have enough power; so I've setteled on either a Tom Lay OS 32 FSP or an OS 40 FSP.  Both weigh the same (8.1 oz versus 6.7 oz for the Fox).  My question is would the Tom Lay OS 32 have enough power?  I think so but really need some advice.

Brew

[Steve Berry]

Built light, the Fox is more than enough for the Gieseke Nobler, seeing as that is what the man himself powered his with.

Of the two you mentioned, the OS 32 FSP would probably be tame enough to work. It puts out significantly more power than the Fox does.

Steve

[Dave_Trible]

It was surely enough for Bob-  here it is. 

[Dennis Toth]

Harold,
If you build it reasonably light the Fox will do the job but with a little current day twist. First, get a good needle valve assembly like the one that Randy Smith sold for the Fox. It was like the ST but has the center section turned down to the size that the Fox NVA is so you get a bit more power. Second, run the Fox with a little smaller diameter (like 9 1/2") and lower pitch (like 5") in a rich 2 cycle not the traditional 4-2-4. Used fuel with at least 25% total oil (see Randy's fuel recommendation), I use a quart of Brodak 10% all synthetic mixed with a quart of 5% all castor to get 7%, 26% total oil (makes 1/2gal at a time).

For the ship there are three areas that you save weight; engine, wood, finish. The Fox does the best for saving engine weight even with a muffler. For wood, now days you can find some good stuff but you will either need to pay a premium or hurt around a lot or use thinner but stronger and harder sheets to get the same overall weight as the premium stuff (Bob Hunt trick). The last big weight saver is finish. Consider doing the wings and tail surfaces in MonoKote type film and paint the fuse. You can cut the finish weight by at least a third doing this, even if you do a final clear coat over the whole ship.

Best,   DennisT

[Gerald Arana]

 Used fuel with at least 25% total oil (see Randy's fuel recommendation), I use a quart of Brodak 10% all synthetic mixed with a quart of 5% all castor to get 7%, 26% total oil

Dennis; two quarts is 1/2 gallon. And you put this amount of oil in a gallon? Are you sure that is correct?

Creers, Jerry

[Philip THOMAS]

Been looking through my stash for an engine for my Gieseke Nobler.  Don't think a Fox will have enough power; so I've setteled on either a Tom Lay OS 32 FSP or an OS 40 FSP.  Both weigh the same (8.1 oz versus 6.7 oz for the Fox).  My question is would the Tom Lay OS 32 have enough power?  I think so but really need some advice.

Brew

Good to read your post Sir!
But the million dollar question; is anyone still kitting the Gieseke Nobler?
Best regards
Phil Thomas

[Steve Helmick]

My understanding is that nobody is currently kitting the Gieseke Nobler, which is sad, because it's both the best flying and best looking of all the Nobler derivatives.

And it happens that I have a Ultra Hobbies kit for the Gieseke Nobler and it is available. Made with Lone Star balsa, I think it's the one you'd want. $150 US + shipping + insurance at actual cost. I don't actually do PayPal, but my son does, and we can work out the details.  Steve

[Colin McRae]

You might look at the new Enya SS 35 CX ABC-BB engine. I recently mounted one on my Nobler ARF and it is a good match for my model at 43 oz. The engine / muffler combination is very light for a modern 35 at 8.9 oz. Running mine on an APC 10-5 sport prop. On 10% nitro / 20% oil it easily spins the 10-5 at close to 11,000 in a nice 2-2-2.

[Dennis Toth]

If you really want to have a little extra power you could go with the OS 40FP. This will turn an 11x4 at 11K + rpm in a 2-2-2 and give you plenty of vertical and up top power. If you have time and want to save weight and get power get one of Brain Gardner's Fox 35 ABC setups. This gives outstanding power at the lower weight of the Fox. This one you really want to run in a 2-2-2 on a 10x4.5 prop again somewhere around 11K. You still need the fuel with total oil of at least 25% (plain shaft bearing).

Don't forget to put in a degree or so of engine offset, really helps up top.

Best,   DennisT

[Doug Moon]

My understanding is that nobody is currently kitting the Gieseke Nobler, which is sad, because it's both the best flying and best looking of all the Nobler derivatives.

And it happens that I have a Ultra Hobbies kit for the Gieseke Nobler and it is available. Made with Lone Star balsa, I think it's the one you'd want. $150 US + shipping + insurance at actual cost. I don't actually do PayPal, but my son does, and we can work out the details.  Steve

Check your messages.

[Brett Buck]

My suggestion for using a Fox is to *leave it alone* mechanically. Most of the alternate spraybar assemblies (PA, Jett, ST, ST Clone) will fairly substantially reduce the power by reducing the choke area. Nitro is by far the easiest and safest power improvement. Unless you find some problem with the stock unit (and have addressed the needle seat issue) you will note that the guy who knew by far the most about Fox 35 Noblers - more than Aldrich himself - used a stock spraybar

You definitely do not want to run a smaller prop, a 10-6 of some variety is almost always the best way to go, and there is a huge variation on them that have dramatic differences. I always did the best overall with a Tope Flite 10-6 regular-blade prop but on some days you could use different types with some improvement. If anything, with more nitro, you might be able to explore with an 11-5, which is generally too much on an average summer day on 5%, but has possibilities in cooler air or more nitro

The 40FP is not a little more power, it is a rather extreme increase in the performance when run properly and is under control. The best-case weight and trim is radically different from a Fox to a OS40FP, it tolerates much more weight and may benefit from more weight. The problem most people have with the 40FP is that the power is far beyond their capability to deal with in such a small airplane, since it is about 50% too much when set up correctly. That is why I would use a 25FP, which is still a rather drastic improvement over a stock Fox on 5%.

    Brett

[Pat Johnston]

I agree with Brett on using an FP25. I built a regular Nobler with the FP25 and it was wonderful. Of course, it was 37 ounces, so that was helpful.
I think I have the  Gieseke Nobler in my plans list. I can cut one with all contest wood to ensure a light weight result.
Pat Johnston
Idaho Skunk Works

[Dave_Trible]

Right now I think I'd go with Colin on this one.   If I wasn't using a good Fox then I'd go with this new Enya .35 SS.   It will for sure go in my next Classic build.  The .40 FP is just serious overkill plus extra weight of engine and muffler which spoils a lot of classics (IMHO).   I'm not really too familiar with the .25FP.   Probably a good enough choice .   This Enya is in a .25 size case and i'd guess similar in weight.   I also think you can get some 4-2 run characteristics from it.

Dave

[Colin McRae]

This Enya is in a .25 size case and i'd guess similar in weight.

Dave

The only weight comparison I have is to an OS 25 LA. Below both including the stock mufflers.

OS 25 LA  8.73 oz
Enya SS 35 CX ABC-BB  8.9 oz

A lot of the OS weight above is due to the muffler which is quite heavy compared to the Enya muffler. I do like my OS LA engines, but I wish OS used a lighter aluminum material on their mufflers.

[John Park]

Another endorsement for the OS .25FP-S.  Mine weighs 8.1 oz. with the stock silencer, and I currently have it in a 490 sq. in., 38oz. own-design, for which it has quite a bit more than ample power.

[doug coursey]

My suggestion for using a Fox is to *leave it alone* mechanically. Most of the alternate spraybar assemblies (PA, Jett, ST, ST Clone) will fairly substantially reduce the power by reducing the choke area. Nitro is by far the easiest and safest power improvement. Unless you find some problem with the stock unit (and have addressed the needle seat issue) you will note that the guy who knew by far the most about Fox 35 Noblers - more than Aldrich himself - used a stock spraybar

You definitely do not want to run a smaller prop, a 10-6 of some variety is almost always the best way to go, and there is a huge variation on them that have dramatic differences. I always did the best overall with a Tope Flite 10-6 regular-blade prop but on some days you could use different types with some improvement. If anything, with more nitro, you might be able to explore with an 11-5, which is generally too much on an average summer day on 5%, but has possibilities in cooler air or more nitro

The 40FP is not a little more power, it is a rather extreme increase in the performance when run properly and is under control. The best-case weight and trim is radically different from a Fox to a OS40FP, it tolerates much more weight and may benefit from more weight. The problem most people have with the 40FP is that the power is far beyond their capability to deal with in such a small airplane, since it is about 50% too much when set up correctly. That is why I would use a 25FP, which is still a rather drastic improvement over a stock Fox on 5%.

    Brett

Im building a tucker special with some bob hunt foam wings and was thinking of putting a jett 40 RE in it with his header muffler but that sounds like it might be over powered,i think bob had one with  some kind of 28 size motor in his...

[Dave_Trible]

I have a couple of these and know it pretty well.   It is surely small and light enough -it's in a .25 size case.   It can develop plenty of power,   I used it quite effectively pulling up to about 64 ounce airplanes competitively.    You CAN tame it if wanted by downsizing the venturi opening a little and do fine with it.   I've only run mine on pipe with 11-4 APC props but have thought it would make a perfect Classic stunt motor set up as you describe for the medium-large size classics- think Van Loo Chipmunk etc., maybe a little too much for the smaller I beam types like an Ares or Neptune.   I have one now in a semi scale Hurricane of about 610 sq.s and upper 50 ounce range.

Dave

[doug coursey]

I have a couple of these and know it pretty well.   It is surely small and light enough -it's in a .25 size case.   It can develop plenty of power,   I used it quite effectively pulling up to about 64 ounce airplanes competitively.    You CAN tame it if wanted by downsizing the venturi opening a little and do fine with it.   I've only run mine on pipe with 11-4 APC props but have thought it would make a perfect Classic stunt motor set up as you describe for the medium-large size classics- think Van Loo Chipmunk etc., maybe a little too much for the smaller I beam types like an Ares or Neptune.   I have one now in a semi scale Hurricane of about 610 sq.s and upper 50 ounce range.

Dave

HOW MUCH NITRO DO YOU USE..MINE WILL HAVE A LITTLE LESS POWER BECAUSE YOU ARE USING A PIPE..IT SHOULD BE BELOW 50 OUNCES

[Dave_Trible]

It's been awhile since I flew those engines but I'm pretty sure it was 10%.    I fly my other RO Jets on everything from 7 1/2% in cooler weather to 10% normally and have run 15% when hot -as long as they don't 'charge' out of the bottoms.    Hard to be too far off with 10.   This is another way to tame the engine down if it needs (doubtful) is to back off nitro.   You COULD even try as low as 2% nitro and see what you have.   This is largely a function of the compression the engine has.   I'd much rather manipulate nitro content than disassemble the engine and mess with head shims.   I originally did that with the .40 and found it much better to change nitro and leave the engine alone.  In all cases I've used 23-24% oil- 50/50 mix.


Dave

[doug coursey]

It's been awhile since I flew those engines but I'm pretty sure it was 10%.    I fly my other RO Jets on everything from 7 1/2% in cooler weather to 10% normally and have run 15% when hot -as long as they don't 'charge' out of the bottoms.    Hard to be too far off with 10.   This is another way to tame the engine down if it needs (doubtful) is to back off nitro.   You COULD even try as low as 2% nitro and see what you have.   This is largely a function of the compression the engine has.   I'd much rather manipulate nitro content than disassemble the engine and mess with head shims.   I originally did that with the .40 and found it much better to change nitro and leave the engine alone.  In all cases I've used 23-24% oil- 50/50 mix.


Dave

IS THAT 50%SYN AND 50%CASTOR

[Dave_Trible]

It's been awhile since I flew those engines but I'm pretty sure it was 10%.    I fly my other RO Jets on everything from 7 1/2% in cooler weather to 10% normally and have run 15% when hot -as long as they don't 'charge' out of the bottoms.    Hard to be too far off with 10.   This is another way to tame the engine down if it needs (doubtful) is to back off nitro.   You COULD even try as low as 2% nitro and see what you have.   This is largely a function of the compression the engine has.   I'd much rather manipulate nitro content than disassemble the engine and mess with head shims.   I originally did that with the .40 and found it much better to change nitro and leave the engine alone.  In all cases I've used 23-24% oil- 50/50 mix.


Dave

IS THAT 50%SYN AND 50%CASTOR

Yes.   Castor and Klotz

[Paul Raley]

My understanding is that nobody is currently kitting the Gieseke Nobler, which is sad, because it's both the best flying and best looking of all the Nobler derivatives.

And it happens that I have a Ultra Hobbies kit for the Gieseke Nobler and it is available. Made with Lone Star balsa, I think it's the one you'd want. $150 US + shipping + insurance at actual cost. I don't actually do PayPal, but my son does, and we can work out the details.  Steve

Steve,
I would be interested in the UHP kit if it is still available.

Thanks
Paul Raley

[Brett Buck]

Im building a tucker special with some bob hunt foam wings and was thinking of putting a jett 40 RE in it with his header muffler but that sounds like it might be over powered,i think bob had one with  some kind of 28 size motor in his...

     You'll be OK with the Jett 40 - it is a much better and easier-to-control stunt engine than a 40FP. The problem is not amount of power, it is being able to *control* the power.

      Brett

[Steve Helmick]

My understanding is that nobody is currently kitting the Gieseke Nobler, which is sad, because it's both the best flying and best looking of all the Nobler derivatives.

And it happens that I have a Ultra Hobbies kit for the Gieseke Nobler and it is available. Made with Lone Star balsa, I think it's the one you'd want. $150 US + shipping + insurance at actual cost. I don't actually do PayPal, but my son does, and we can work out the details.  Steve

Sorry for the delay, guys, but the UHP G.Nobler kit has been sold.    Steve

[Bill Johnson]

You might look at the new Enya SS 35 CX ABC-BB engine. I recently mounted one on my Nobler ARF and it is a good match for my model at 43 oz. The engine / muffler combination is very light for a modern 35 at 8.9 oz. Running mine on an APC 10-5 sport prop. On 10% nitro / 20% oil it easily spins the 10-5 at close to 11,000 in a nice 2-2-2.

I have a pair of Noblers and they're getting Enya 35 5224s. On one Enya, I was able to remove enough excess material from the original muffler that it only weighs a bit more than a modern tongue muffler. I also aquired a couple new production crankcases and those engines have tongue mufflers mounted with screws rather than the original steel bands.

These engines produce significantly more power than a Fox. The last one I test ran turns a solid 9500 RPM, 4 stroking, with a 10-6 EW top flight.

They run just fine on something like Powermaster 10-22 with 3% Klotz added.

[Gary Dowler]

If this is known by the poster, forgive me, I’m not trying to insult anyone. But Something I’m surprised no one has discussed in this topic about adequate power for the improved Nobler is how to “free up” power.   Brett made very good points regarding the best employment of the classic Fox 35, but it’s still a Fox 35. So how does one improve the situation? Free up power, and we do that by minimizing drag.
The classic build was to have fixed leadout guide and built in rudder offset.  Proper trim will help to minimize drag, mainly by eliminating excess yaw, which allows a marginal engine to fly the plane a little faster, and thereby providing a little more energy. An adjustable leadout guide and a straight rudder help to eliminate pointless amounts of yaw, significantly affecting drag and energy.

Gary

[Dan McEntee]

If this is known by the poster, forgive me, I’m not trying to insult anyone. But Something I’m surprised no one has discussed in this topic about adequate power for the improved Nobler is how to “free up” power.   Brett made very good points regarding the best employment of the classic Fox 35, but it’s still a Fox 35. So how does one improve the situation? Free up power, and we do that by minimizing drag.
The classic build was to have fixed leadout guide and built in rudder offset.  Proper trim will help to minimize drag, mainly by eliminating excess yaw, which allows a marginal engine to fly the plane a little faster, and thereby providing a little more energy. An adjustable leadout guide and a straight rudder help to eliminate pointless amounts of yaw, significantly affecting drag and energy.

Gary

   Both the ARF Noblers I have been fooling around with needed the lead outs moved forward, and this isn't easy to do. Both airplanes have an incredible amount of structure at the wing tips that isn't on any of the plans for the Nobler that I have ever seen, and without a complete rework of the tips to install a slider, it's really difficult. And both wing tips were different from each other. I did what I could but could not get them to where I really wanted, but it did help on both models. I have a OS .35S in one and started with a Brodak .40in the other but switched it to another OS .35S If the model is balanced properly and then flight trimmed correctly, a Fox.35 will handle it just fine. it will need to be fed proper fuel and prop if the model weight starts to get above 45 ounces. I'll post this video again of the Mike Gretz built Fierce Arrow that I purchased from his estate and it weighs over 50 ounces and is 700 some odd inches of wing area. It is not a world beater but does fly a very satisfying pattern. The engine is a 1960's Fox .35 with no muffler ears, on SIG 5% nitro, 25% all castor fuel and turning a Rev-Up 10-6 EW prop.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   

[C.T. Schaefer]

I might have missed something here but no one has mentioned the Brodak .40. We use them in a wide array of ships including the Geiske.  I like to call it the modern Fox .35. GMA 10/22 with an APC  11.5x4.   TS

[Jim Svitko]

The Brodak 40 would be a good choice, if you can find one.  I have one in a 47 ounce plane.  The engine is side mounted in a full fuselage.  No Fox burp.  I need 3.5 ounces of 5% nitro fuel to get thru the pattern.