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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Ken Culbertson on January 15, 2018, 10:40:15 PM
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I am getting back into the sport after a 20+ year layoff. I flew Expert in the 70's and 80's but the planes were smaller (52") lighter (38oz) and CHEAPER than they are now. I used extremely reliable Adamisin Max 35's back then. Still have one somewhere.
A recent trip to the old flying site (Hobby Park in Garland TX) told me two things. #1 The trees were gone! and #2 a .35 was not going to cut it in Expert class. So I got my hands on a Max .46 converted to Stunt and started drawing. I have not built a kit since my mandatory Nobler back in 1962. I immediately discovered that everything I knew about .35 size planes was useless so I am here to get some feedback. So here are some things that are so basic that I am sure change when you jump plane size:
#1 How big should the fuel tank be (I like flying a fast 4 cycle).
#2 Place to start with the prop. I was thinking 11-5.
#3 I have always built light - under 40oz on a Nobler size plane. How much can a .46 haul around?
#4 Line length? I flew 62' .015 before. Should I go longer and thicker?
#5 4" bell crank?
Plan "B"
Maybe I am crazy to jump back in by designing my own after this long. Maybe I should try and find something already built to putter around for a season and build the Walker Trophy version next winter. I have considered modifying a Brodak Vector but if I am going to go ARF why not just go RF? Is there any "used" forum? I just need something that will take a .46 and is capable of a 550 pattern which narrows it down to just about anything and as long as I am spotting you 20 points, why not a competitive profile.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Hello Ken Good to hear another has returned to the fold. Read lots would be the best advice I csn give as most of the information you seek is on Stunthanger. Shops like Brodak have all the c/L supplies online too. Good luck H^^
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4 or 5 ounce tank if it will fit, prop depends on what the engine likes, .46LA on an APC 11.5 x 4 and 2% nitro fuel will haul 55 ounces easily, 62 x .015 is perfect so is the 4 inch bell crank. Get a handle with minimum overhang or make one, no cables. Contest coming to Garland in mid Feb.
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Hi Ken, if you were running around at Hobby Park in 70's / 80's we had to have bumped into each other, although I was mainly a speed/racing guy in those days. I am returning also after a long layoff.
Welcome back!
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I heard that the Brodak Accentor is a Tanager with a full fuselage.
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Hi Ken,
Welcome back to CL flying.
You said you have a OS 46 to use but didn't mention what type or vintage. It could make a big difference. For instance an OS LA46 will happily fly up to about a 54 oz airplane but a newer converted OS 46AX (double ball bearing) will fly a 60+ oz airplane with ease.
If what you have is an LA 46 I would strongly recommend (in spite of what fantasy you might hear) that you limit the size to somewhere around 600 to 620 sq inches and the weight to something below about 54 oz.
The 46 LA is happy with either a APC 12.25-3.75 or my personal favorite the APC 11.5-4. Most of the more modern engines like the LA or AX OS's are a little higher tuned than what you're used to in the past and will typically want to run a little higher RPM and somewhat flatter pitch props to develop the proper power range. The newer AX would be happy with a 12 to 12.5-4 or even a a 12-4 three blade!
If you intend to eventually be competitive again in the expert class you'll find it's a bit different game than it used to be, Believe me I've lived and survived through the transition and it takes a little different approach and lots of work to be competitive now! Eventually you'll want to consider either a tuned pipe 60 to 75 size engine or an electric setup. Personally I'm a bit Anti-Electric but admit that they have a lot of advantages in stunt operation!
I understand your desire to design your own airplane but might suggest that you look into a Paul Walker design called the "Impact" or the Randy Smith design called the SV11. They will show you modern numbers and layout that definitely work. As for what they look like...I'm sure you know that small changes in appearance are easy to make while keeping the basic aerodynamics. You'll see things like "pipe tunnels", longer moments, larger stab and elevators than used in the past!
Actually the SV11 is available from Randy Smith as an ARF or ARC. No appearance points but might be a good place to start a return with a very good flying modern stunter!
Best of luck on your return!
Randy Cuberly
PS: I don't want to scare you but in the "tough areas of the country competitive expert scores are in the 580's or higher! The very top guys most often fly close to the 600 mark!
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Hook up with the Dallas Model Aircraft Assn. We meet monthly, usually the first Thursday of the month. Call me and I can give you all the info you need like how to get the monthly newsletter, contest schedules, etc.etc. 817 306 0226. Lots of good flyers and lots of contests here. Look forward to hearing from you.
Don
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I got a new rib set for the Tanager if someone wants to build a plane as MM is suggesting.
I'm using my LA 46 on the imitation kit I ordered from Mike. Very excited to get that going.
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Sorry, I did a little googling and found out that OS made about 3,942 different .46 models. A bit of an exaggeration but it does make a difference. It is a very low mileage .46 FX. I really appreciate all of the responses. Until I found this site I wasn't sure there were still 10 people flying Stunt! Most of this is for Randy Cuberly. I haven't figured out how to respond to a response yet so cut me some slack.
I am probably going to take your advice and look into something already designed for my first venture back into the fray. It is not so much building something that is at issue as it is getting all the stuff together you need to do if from scratch! I think what I need is an ARC wing that I can build a profile fuselage around. Will Brodak just sell wings? Maybe I should ask him. Since I am going to place somewhere around last for a while, losing the 10-15 beauty pageant points won't hurt. I am a firm believer in the BOM rule even though it will eventually kill the sport.
About the 550. If I was going to find an orphan to adopt I just wanted to make sure it was a design that could turn a tight corner without dropping a wing and didn't hunt. The folks I competed with locally in the 70's and 80's were turning in 580+ patterns. Dallas was a tough area back then. I hit that mark once and placed 4th. My my goal is to simply become competitive again and enjoy the company of the special folks that share this sport. I know I have some adapting to do. Around here things were very different back then. Bottoms were lower, corners tighter. With few exceptions today's corners would have you in the upper 400's.
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Hi Ken,
For what it's worth I think you have a very good attitude and I'm sure you will be successful in what you're trying to do.
The 46FX can be a useful engine if properly "tamed". It's a very powerful engine and will certainly fly any of the current designs around in the 650 to700 sq in range.
The key to using the 46FX is to use a somewhat smaller venturi (around .265-.270 diameter) to start. and just somewhat lower pitch props than those we used to use in the past. A 12 to 12.5-4 APC would be a good place to start.
A favorite "trick" of many is to put extra shims under the head but I personally don't think that's necessary, on this particular engine.
I would also recommend you call and talk to Randy Smith (look in Vendor's corner here on the forum for Aero Products). He might be able to help with the ARC or ARF wing!
There are a lot of excellent fliers in Texas and most all of them are exceedingly nice people willing to help!
If I personally can be of any help in your quest please ask!
Randy Cuberly
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I know I have some adapting to do. Around here things were very different back then. Bottoms were lower, corners tighter. With few exceptions today's corners would have you in the upper 400's.
Uh...I am sure that when you meet and fly with Texas local, Walker Cup Winner, Doug Moon, he will happily demonstrate tight corners, low bottoms, and a (likely) 600 point pattern for you.
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Uh...I am sure that when you meet and fly with Texas local, Walker Cup Winner, Doug Moon, he will happily demonstrate tight corners, low bottoms, and a (likely) 600 point pattern for you.
Uhhh yeah, there's even at least one guy down there, Mr Joe Gilbert, that will fly tight corners, low bottoms and 560+ score with a "Stinkin' Ringmaster! Go figure!
In fact you will find no shortage of very tight corners, and perfect 4-5 ft bottoms in most of todays top fliers!
Randy Cuberly
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Tom's Building Service will also build anything you want to any stage you want. Tom Morris, 327 Pueblp Pass, Anniston, Alabama, 36206.
ctmorris@cableone.net
His work is top notch, always very light. Stunt Hangar Hobbyshop (link at the top of this forum) also handles Tom's products.
His phone # is 256 820-1983. Give him a call. He is a wealth of knowledge. #^
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About the 550. If I was going to find an orphan to adopt I just wanted to make sure it was a design that could turn a tight corner without dropping a wing and didn't hunt. The folks I competed with locally in the 70's and 80's were turning in 580+ patterns. Dallas was a tough area back then. I hit that mark once and placed 4th. My my goal is to simply become competitive again and enjoy the company of the special folks that share this sport. I know I have some adapting to do. Around here things were very different back then. Bottoms were lower, corners tighter. With few exceptions today's corners would have you in the upper 400's.
One of the biggest problems we have had since about 1985 is that the wings keep folding or showing severe fatigue damage because the cornering has gotten so much better. Used to be a very rare event that a wing had a structural problem, but now it's not at all uncommon and we keep building them stronger and stronger. You simply couldn't corner 4-2 break engines tightly, or not for more than one corner, because it killed the speed. Now, hit it as hard as you want, and it might have other issues, but it will certainly keep the speed up.
I would also note that the bottom height has been 5 feet from the beginning - not "lower than the last guy". The difference you are probably seeing is that people are getting dinged as much for too low as too high. Watch a flyoff and you will see the winners splitting the 5' mark on the height pole, and the guys who limbo down in the 3 foot range getting burned.
Brett
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You will not go hungry at Dallas contests.
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Howard, you do realize that we only have contests as an excuse to gather and eat. The flying is strictly secondary! %^@
Bill Bischoff/ DMAA
"When you go to Dallas, you're in for a treat. Our food, like our fliers, just cannot be beat!"
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You will not go hungry at Dallas contests.
That is the case at all of the District 8 events.
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You will not go hungry at Dallas contests.
My wife and I gained 10 pounds at a DMAA meeting. I couldn't imagine a contest!