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Author Topic: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”  (Read 4025 times)

Offline BYU

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Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« on: July 16, 2017, 09:47:21 AM »
Ever wanted to get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”?

The "Chumley Memorial"  - "Secret Stunt Clinic" -  with Brett Buck, Ted Fancher and Jim Aron is on Saturday July 29 and is a must-attend event.
Judge training for you and trimming advice on your own favorite world beater.

Free Hot Dogs and Sirloin Hamburgers (self flipped) with ALL the fixings.

At the Woodlands Davis Field right here in Sunny Northern California. http://wdarc.org

Be sure to put it on your calendar, the "Big Event" starts early at 8:00 am.

Ohh... and did I mention the entry price for this event?

Nada!

You read that right, not a nickel or a cent - Its FREE!

Plus its rumored that “Commissioner” Fernandez might even show.


Define nada: nada synonyms, English dictionary definition of nada. pron. Slang Nothing; zero. n chiefly informal US nothing

« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 09:52:30 AM by Bobs your Uncle »

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” while eating Free Hot dogs
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 10:04:07 AM »
Thanks for the plug ByU. The usual suspects are working hard to get the field in shape. Directions can be found at "WDARC(dot)org" but don't pay any attention to the contest description...it still lists the original contest which was the 2 day "Chumley Memorial ARF Off" since replaced the one day "Chumley Memorial Stunt Clinic" on the 29th.  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” while eating Free Hot dogs
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 02:05:23 PM »
Hope to see all of you there stunt clinics are an excellent thing! :)

Offline BYU

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” while eating Free Hot dogs
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 04:32:42 PM »
Ohh and RSVP Jimby himself at:

unclejimby at AOL dot com

Helps to know how many Sirloin hamburgers we need.

Thanks!


« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 10:08:08 PM by Bobs your Uncle »

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” while eating Free Hot dogs
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 09:00:17 PM »
Got it done :)

Offline BYU

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” while eating Free Hot dogs
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 10:20:49 PM »
Now upgraded to Sirloin Burgers AND Hotdogs.


Offline Brett Buck

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Chumley memorial - SATURDAY not Sunday.
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 10:22:28 PM »
Note that this is on SATURDAY, not Sunday like you might expect.

Offline BYU

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 10:04:42 AM »
With the high numbers expected at the TOP DOG Stunt Clinic THIS SATURDAY
It is important that if you intend to be there that you RSVP Jimby by Wednesday to make sure you don't go hungry.

Thanks!

RSVP to ; unclejimby at AOL dot com






Offline BYU

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 08:22:10 AM »
A big thanks to Ted, Brett, Jimby, Pete and everybody who helped at the Chumley Memorial Stunt Clinic. Turnout was way bigger than expected.

I learned a lot!

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 09:03:51 AM »
Just want to say thanks to Brett Buck, Ted Fancher, and Jim Aron, for donating their time this past Saturday. It was very helpful. Also thanks to Eliott Scott for furnishing the food and Pete for manning the grilling chores. A lot of flyers turned out for this,everyone pitched in something to make it work. I look forward to the next one. Thanks again guys.
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 09:53:37 AM »
  I was happy to do it and I both enjoyed it and learned something (as I always do at these things). I hope people got something out of it. I liked the format, once we worked out a few kinks to speed up the process.

   Doing this illustrated the specifics and general thrust I was trying to make  this other thread, in stark detail:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/trimming-your-model-for-flight-characteristics-or-personal-style/

and I might add to it with anonymized examples, since there are quite a few, in fact, almost every flight demonstrated the point I was trying to make.

    Brett

Offline Fred Constantine

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 12:35:40 PM »
The Chumley Memorial Stunt Clinic was a wonderful experience.  It was all about me and twelve other pilots who wanted to get better.  Three drove all the way from Oregon.  Brett did a first rate job of coaching our group of seven intermediate level pilots.  I think Ted had a somewhat less ragged group.  Jim wisely modified his original ARF/OFF contest to give us just what we needed.  The pilots were encouraged to stand with the coach and discuss each others flights.  A good training tool and it gave us all an appreciation of the stamina required to stand in the sun and judge a contest. 

Everyone expressed their appreciation and hoped it would be repeated next year.  To top it off,  it was free, and included lunch.  I did notice the tip jar was bulging, because stunt pilots are gentlemen.

Looking forward to next year,  Fred.
Fred Constantine
Calistoga, CA   AMA 6798

Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 01:02:59 PM »
Hats off to Jim, Brett, Ted, Pete and all those who assisted in making the Chumley Memorial Stunt Clinic an outstanding event and experience! And to do this for free was unbelievable!

I was able to learn so much, probably too much for my own good. I learned about judging and how difficult it is. I now have a real appreciation for those who judge stunt. Learned what separates a good maneuver from a bad one. And what you think is right ---- is wrong!

This was most important lesson I learned. And Brett, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments from the other post when you say, "but far too often, "personal preference" is used as a cover for not trying to improve, not knowing what to do, or far more often, not knowing there is anything wrong in the first place". You hit the nail on the head.

Each of us were giving the opportunity to put in several flights and were judge and given a score. All the pilots were able to express what they saw in each maneuver, good and/or bad. Questions were asked and answered, a great learning environment.

When it came time for me to fly, I was totally amazed when I put in a couple of flights and was given scores between 505 to 515 points. For an "intermediate" flyer I *thought* all was good --- wrong.

Brett saw some "trim" issues and asked if he could fly the plane later on. Boy I can't wait! To have someone of Brett's caliber fly my plane, I can't wait to see what he can do! So after the clinic Brett picks up the handle and the first thing we do is adjust the handle for neutral. Ok, no problem. I adjust the handle. We fire the engine and Brett takes off and levels off - very cool. He starts a loop and you hear very loudly and distinctly, "WHOA....", does some inverted laps, brings it back upright and fly's the remainder of the flight level, no more maneuvers. Lands the plane as says, "the controls are way too slow and is requiring way too much movement at the handle to make the plane turn. He also added, "this plane pulls harder than my plane". Mind you this a profile with a LA 46.

We go back to the pits and check the planes balance. He tells me add about an ounce or 1-1/2 ounces in the tail. I add an ounce to start with and he does another flight. This time more maneuvers, does a horizontal eight and pulls the bottoms at 4-1/2 feet. It looked fantastic, but what do I know. He finishes the flight and tells me that "you know the 4-1/2 foot bottom the end of the horizontal eight --- it was not intended".

He advises me to work on the balance, either remove some weight in the nose or add more tail weight until it gets a little uncontrollable and then back off a little weight. That was the end of the session. But what a learning experience! Mind you in my thinking, I didn't think anything was wrong ------ wrong again! Thanks Brett for help and advice.

Again "Thank You" to all who assisted and made this an event to remember.

Dennis


Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 01:26:43 PM »
I can't add much to what is said above but would be remiss if I did not extend a big personal thanks to Ted, Brett, and Jim for conceiving and putting on this wonderful clinic, and to Pete Cunha and all the Davis-area guys who keep the field in top condition year round (flooding notwithstanding). Without this small nucleus of hard working individuals there would be no stunt in Northern California. It's been like this for years. Pete and his minions distributed cold drinks to everybody during the day. Most welcome.

I was in the Ted group. To have the personal attention of a multi-time Nats champion, one on one, going over each segment of each maneuver just flown, discussing how to improve each component, is simply incredible. Ted has an excellent ability to describe in words what has to happen in the air (from 747 size on down).  I went out this morning and tried to put into practice some of what I learned yesterday and I think I see improvement already.

Also invaluable was the "group judging" session with all the pilots before we broke into sections. Hearing what we all think we saw, and having Jim comment on what we SHOULD be looking for, is a great learning device.

So, many thanks to everyone, named above or not, who contributed to the success of this clinic. Hope it can be an annual event.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 01:45:42 PM »
So if I visit my sister in Gilroy next year, and I grew up some in Oakland, and my parents later lived in Sacramento and Woodlands,

Could I count on any central / norther Cal guy to come out to Travis AFB and find me after the flight from Tinker on a C117 ----and get me to a hard to find , good off base car rental kiosk?

Did this a few time in the past to visit dear old mom in Oakland...I hate the area around Travis AFB!

But 2018 seems to be a year to suck up my angst, with California in genera,
And go visit friends and family and perhaps meet some new friends

May haps Larry F could teach me some meager mono-kote skills

Brett could actually see that I really am a "aint he precious" , "bless his heart", sort of unfortunate guy

Many attending would be astounded that I could not pick out any of the super stars by face, and need constant reminding just who Paul Walker is

Some few would be perplexed at my curiosity about a Fox 15 and why it is up chucked often ( I have NEVER seen one)

Others may be put off by my being much to timid at actually fly a airplane... preferring to just watch and learn some

Not sure how many could relate to my ultra conservative POV and why I loath a LOT (no all) of a great state like CA.

I suspect my desire for a Quick Way Burger on Grand Avenue in Oakland--- as a nostalgia child hood memory ---would be viewed as sacrilege when every body seems to think:  ANY visit to the Bay area, demands a trip to Ghirardelli Square for Chocolate, and a side trip for San Fran Sour Dough bread with a walk up Lombard and back down to the water front by Cable car

I would rather prefer a ride to the top of mount Tamalpias to watch the hippies smoke weed....opps to much of my HS info disclosed
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 02:36:26 PM »
You may be surprised at the range of political philosophies among NorCal model flyers. We have kind of an unwritten rule to leave politics at home when at the model field, and deep red and deep blue flyers convene peacefully and happily every weekend. There may be some good-natured joshing but no polemics. Harder to be an extremist when face to face rather than on some internet forum. Anyhow, so long as you generally like model flying, whether you actually fly or not, I have no doubt you would be welcome and have no trouble finding someone to pick you up.

My wife and her brothers ate lunch at QwikWay on Grand in Oakland nearly every day in high school. Its still there in the same location, like a time machine.

San Francisco has some pretty views, which are free and open to all, but is too expensive to eat in or stay in. Then there is the intractable homeless problem, especially in the Financial District but spreading everywhere. I was born and raised in SF but almost never visit any more. Except for a ringside seat at the Blue Angels show every October during Fleet Week. There are some great eats in the East Bay at a fraction of SF prices, and Oakland has every imaginable type of ethnic cuisine and a number of craft beer makers.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 03:36:48 PM »
Mike

I appreciate your note on politics.... I try hard to keep mine to my self but have such very strong opinions that when some one sez something disparaging about the conservatives in the fly over zone I can get a tad vocal and testy/argumentative

That said, I have traveled extensively to various Model airplane venues around the nation and this (polotics) has not been a problem with the hobby folks at the fields...ever

I think I was last in the Bay area around 2009 and QuickWay was going strong....drove all the way up from south San Jose just for a burger n fries
glad to hear it may still feed my fetish to relive a 1967~1973 memory

Our Lady of Lourdes 8th grade and Saint Mary's Peralta Park Berkeley High School--- and very briefly at Oakland High before drafted

We lived up a few blocks above the grand lake Theater towards Piedmont

One of the thinks I find interesting is the notion many have calling that area NorCal

I am in Central Texas with a good 6 to 9 hour drive to any border

I always Thought of the greater Bay area as central Ca, LA southern, and a bit north of Sacramento as northern
But enough of all that... is the next Secret Stunt Clinic going to be about same time of year?









"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 04:40:33 PM »
I appreciate your note on politics.... I try hard to keep mine to my self but have such very strong opinions that when some one sez something disparaging about the conservatives in the fly over zone I can get a tad vocal and testy/argumentative


It's a non-issue in practice. Jim is a classic Berkeley liberal and I am as arch a conservative as exists. But, we get along and I consider him to be one of my closest friends. Primarily because we aren't mindless partisans, emphasis on the "mindless". As contrasted to the vast majority of people who claim intellectual depth and wise political geniuses because they spew partisan talking points like myna birds.  In all the years, we have only had one major blow-up amongst the local group (not me and Jim!) and that was not along left/right political lines, and to be honest, it was pretty mystifying how it all happened and the degree to which it degenerated.

   Non-issue.

      Brett
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 10:26:20 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 09:53:19 PM »
Thank you to all that helped put on the Stunt Clinic. Brett was very, very helpful and I learned some great things that I am sure will help me improve
my scores. For the first time in many years of flying ( Since 1984) it is starting to make some sense and click a little bit. The instruction that Brett
gave was spot on and will provide an excellent starting spot for some specific areas I need to improve. Granted 12 years of this competition was when I was living in an area with no CL pilots( Bishop,Ca). When I moved near Fresno,Ca there were other pilots but I began coaching Jr College Football and it took a chunk of my time during contest season. It did pay a lot of my 2 daughters college tuition though. Since I have retired I now have someone who is helping me to learn how to fly here in Medford, Oregon. That has helped considerably.

What a great thing to be coached by a National Champion we are very fortunate. I had never heard several things that Brett taught us and it was
very enlightening. Very practical  information that can be put into use .Thank you again for putting this on Elliott the food was great. I would highly encourage anyone wanting to learn and improve to attend next eyar.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 10:23:22 PM »
I'm very pleased to read the nearly unanimous thumbs up for Uncle Jimby's Chumly Memorial stunt clinic. As an observer/pontificator I had been a little concerned that the format would be too demanding of time to give worthwhile evaluations to the rotating sequence of flyers.  Too  many flights, too many "tricks" too little time!  I'm glad that, nonetheless, there appears to have been widespread appreciation for what Jim, Brett and I were able to provide.

Fortunately the number of fliers was pretty much ideal for the time available and, even though there seemed to be extensive give and take with each pilot after a flight, the fact that fliers who chose to do so were able to sit in on the discussion of each other's flights proved to mitigate what might have been considered dead time had the "group grope for better tricks" not been a planned part of the process.

Thanks, as always, to Uncle Jimby for his apparently bottomless willingness to work hard to help others enjoy flying stunt more.

Ted

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 11:32:28 PM »

Fortunately the number of fliers was pretty much ideal for the time available and, even though there seemed to be extensive give and take with each pilot after a flight, the fact that fliers who chose to do so were able to sit in on the discussion of each other's flights proved to mitigate what might have been considered dead time had the "group grope for better tricks" not been a planned part of the process.

Thanks, as always, to Uncle Jimby for his apparently bottomless willingness to work hard to help others enjoy flying stunt more.

     I would note, as you mentioned yesterday, the few test flights I flew for the guys suggests to me that the "trimming" part of some previous events would still be worth a significant investment. All three airplanes I flew had significant trim issues that probably could have been diagnosed with a careful inspection. As always, I was amazed at how well the pilots managed to fly in the face of these problems, but Dennis' issues would have been easy to find and resolve in a basic bench trimming sesson and a few flights, and were causing him massive problems that he was completely unaware of.

   The problem we always had with any "inactivity" was that it dragged on so long that everyone just gave up after a while. That was what Jim was trying to avoid, but in actuality, we only got in a few flights for each pilot. I think the debriefs were very useful for everyone. But I am less convinced that the less-experienced pilots were able to actually actively change anything as the result of judging input, other than general rules like "form a reference system and fly within it". In my circle, Walter and Marshall, and even more so Bob Duncan, could actually make a change as indicated. That's really asking a lot from low-time pilots, they are not really able to make shape corrections. And I could have harangued Dennis all afternoon about tightening up corners and he would have just gotten irritated because it was impossible.

    I am trying to come up with a solution that fits the available space and time, without bogging down in periods of inactivity. Maybe do a trim session on Saturday and a coaching session on Sunday. For the trim session, set one expert up to go through and check, and correct, anything like obvious misalignements, mechanical issues, etc. Get one airplane done, and send it out for the expert to fly a few times and correct the things you can only diagnose from flying it. More-or-less, yesterday, I check that the handle was close, told the pilot to fill it up and start it, and just diagnosed it from what I saw. That is moderately dangerous but that's all we did.

     Brett
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 09:37:24 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 07:34:40 PM »
How about, an expert flies the student's plane to evaluate the trim, but the student flies a well trimmed "beater" model like a FancherIzed Twister to evaluate his piloting skills. Separate the problems and solutions can be much quicker!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Uncle Jimby

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 04:26:21 PM »
Let me say that putting on an event of this nature could not happen without the incredibly generous and selfless contributions of the two talented flyers/coaches:  Ted Fancher and Brett Buck.  All day in the sun with nary a whine.  Hope to do it again next year.  Hope to do it even better.  Thanks everyone for attending.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 04:54:17 PM »
How about, an expert flies the student's plane to evaluate the trim, but the student flies a well trimmed "beater" model like a FancherIzed Twister to evaluate his piloting skills. Separate the problems and solutions can be much quicker!

You might run out of "beater" models!  But -- it's a good idea.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 06:14:19 PM »
     I would note, as you mentioned yesterday, the few test flights I flew for the guys suggests to me that the "trimming" part of some previous events would still be worth a significant investment. All three airplanes I flew had significant trim issues that probably could have been diagnosed with a careful inspection. As always, I was amazed at how well the pilots managed to fly in the face of these problems, but Dennis' issues would have been easy to find and resolve in a basic bench trimming sesson and a few flights, and were causing him massive problems that he was completely unaware of.

snip

I agree entirely with Brett on the desirability of first "pre-flighting" the airplane and its control system (including the handle, an integral part of the control system) before flight.  Ideally a test flight as well but, as Brett's adventures in that direction proved, time doesn't stand still!

The basic pattern is very simple geometry which, if a stunt ship is "pointable" any of the individuals who participated would have been flying the maneuvers as shown in the rule book.  When the difference between the picture and the flight performance diverge considerably it is a good bet that the airplane isn't "helping" the pilot perform the tricks as printed.

During one of my 'potty" breaks I walked past the pits in my circle and picked up the first few (3 or so) handles I came to and worked the controls. Each and every one of them had controls so slow that I was perplexed as to how the pilots were actually flying corners.  I later asked one of the fliers and he advised that narrowing the handle line spacing as much as possible was a common goal for at least one group of pilots that fly together regularly.  Their intention apparently being to reduce bobble type errors by slowing the response of the airplane. While I don't advocate hair trigger quickness I do feel that a good stunt pattern can only be flown with modest movement of the pilot's anatomy.  In my opinion the controls on each of those ships (competition stunters...not newbie profiles,etc.) were so slow as to be an impediment to flying competitive patterns.

While I did mention the situation during one debriefing there simply wasn't enough time during a flight/debrief sequence to both monitor and report on the maneuver quality/errors and watch the flier to see if the slow controls were forcing excessive pilot motion and attempting to evaluate to what degree errors were the result.  Without a close examination of the airplane itself and, ideally, flying them debriefing on the degree to which the control system might be causing problems was unrealistic.  As a result the issue wasn't discussed at length nor was each airplane investigated prior to flight with regards to control sensitivity.

The following is just my generic two cents worth that I wish I had been able to share early in the day....

I believe that full flap and elevator deflection should be achievable at the handle using only wrist movement with the ship at rest.  The primary reason for this "ted" restriction is that, by definition, the pilot must otherwise utilize other parts of the body to generate the control movement necessary to do the tricks; bending the elbow for up (can't do that for down you know), or moving the entire arm up and down at the shoulder.  Each of these alternative sources of deflection cause two bad things to happen.  First, geometrically, inputs from the elbow or shoulder require that the airplane be pulled into the circle which is inefficient, has an artificial increase/decrease in tension during the input and release which likely causes some yawing of the airplane while maneuvering.  Second, gross movements such as these require time to input and release thus impacting the quality and potential radius of corners.  Third, the chances of returning all those moving pieces--wrist, fingers, elbow, shoulder and, often, even body motion back into place to exit a corner/maneuver cleanly and at the proscribed place in the maneuver borders on impossible.

This subject matter was never addressed directly to the pilots because it was discovered more or less in passing and insufficient time was available to investigate each aircraft thoroughly and examine solely those items addressed above in a flight.

In short (aren't you glad) I agree with Brett that some sort of bench trimming session would ideally be a part of a future Chumley check out.  Time. Time. Time.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog” ++ Plus Free Hot dogs
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 07:21:17 PM »
During one of my 'potty" breaks I walked past the pits in my circle and picked up the first few (3 or so) handles I came to and worked the controls. Each and every one of them had controls so slow that I was perplexed as to how the pilots were actually flying corners.  I later asked one of the fliers and he advised that narrowing the handle line spacing as much as possible was a common goal for at least one group of pilots that fly together regularly.  Their intention apparently being to reduce bobble type errors by slowing the response of the airplane. While I don't advocate hair trigger quickness I do feel that a good stunt pattern can only be flown with modest movement of the pilot's anatomy.  In my opinion the controls on each of those ships (competition stunters...not newbie profiles,etc.) were so slow as to be an impediment to flying competitive patterns.

   Hmmm, I was unaware of that issue. The airplane I flew on that circle (Trim Example #2 from the other thread) did have very slow controls, and I expected to be marginal for control, but in fact, it was remarkably twitchy, and marginally stable at the end of the flight. Had I not been able to recognize the trim issue(s), a fairly logical response would have been to narrow the spacing. But of course that was at best a band-aid on the underlying problem.

    But overall, if people are intentionally slowing the controls as slow as possible, then they are making it impossible or very difficult to fly with standard techniques - and in some cases, causing the bobble problem in the first place. That might seem counter-intuitive, but the key to making competitive size and quality corners is to start and stop the corners *smartly*, that is, establish the radius as fast as you can, hold it, and then return to neutral as quickly as possible. Move only your fingers and wrist/forearm rotation, and not much of the latter. If you start having to use elbows, you are going to have LOTS of problems, mostly because it takes so much longer that by the time you remove the control input, you have overshot, leading to the inevitable corrections.

    The airplane has to be capable of following this movement, and you have to be able to apply this motion in reasonable time. There is definitely some skill associated with this, but it's well within anyone's capabilities. Note that the same issue applies to "exponential" controls that are intentionally desensitized around neutral. In that case, its nearly impossible to do anything but "swoop" into and out of the corners.

   On my circle, most of the participants had problems with that even on round loops, being far too tentative entering, and taking 90 degrees or more to get to the right round loop radius - at which point the loop becomes a misshapen, high, reverse figure-9. You have to establish the loop radius *immediately* right at the bottom, then maintain it. That's why everybody's loops are either really high, or egg-shaped.

   If I had to guess, the guys who thought they need to radically slow the controls just to get in and out of the corners *probably* had other trim problems (like rudder offset/leadout position flaws or too much tip weight), that they were trying to cover up with handle changes. Rolling and/or yawing in the corners causes the line tension to vary up and down, and changes the control deflection and thus you get the wobbles in pitch while it wobbles around in roll and yaw.

   So, to summarize, I would speculate, again, that trim issues and earnest but faulty/misguided attempts to resolve them led to a counter-productive solution.

     Brett

   
   

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 07:33:25 PM »
How about, an expert flies the student's plane to evaluate the trim, but the student flies a well trimmed "beater" model like a FancherIzed Twister to evaluate his piloting skills. Separate the problems and solutions can be much quicker!

   Or at least not whine very much. I did pretty well run out of gas (and electrolytes) by the end, and at one point, I was getting ready to fly someone's airplane, and had to take a moment to lean over - so I wouldn't pass out. 10 seconds later, "Sure, Marshall, I will fly your completely unfamiliar 20-point airplane, I can probably stand up again!".

     Brett

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 07:36:44 PM »
I have done several"events" also and did nothing but fly and adjust other peoples planes. I have found that their biggest issue is usually getting the plane adjusted properly.

Your thoughts on a two day event where you fly their planes on Sat, and then critique on Sunday is how I would approach it.

Further, giving them a chance to fly a well trimmed plane will do wonders as they will get some idea what they are supposed to fly like.

Good job Jim, Brett, and Ted!

Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 07:54:49 PM »
When can I sign up?!! Entry fee?, no problem. Responsibility?, totally waived. More than once I've casually mentioned both aspects (wish someone knowledgeable would fly my Tucker, and, what does a truly trimmed plane feel like?).
Tom
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 11:35:54 AM by tom brightbill »
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 09:05:02 PM »
Having trained at least a thousand kids (no, really) if the plane isn't right, you are wasteing your time. A model trimming weekend would do a lot more good than critiqueing people flying mistrimmed models.

Get their planes flying right, and they will learn to fly right on their own. Touch up the flight pattern later.

I would love to have a plane I could totally trust to fly where I want. I'm working on it, but not there. Of course, if I ever built a modern, compettitive model, it might help.  LL~
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2017, 11:51:36 PM »
Having trained at least a thousand kids (no, really) if the plane isn't right, you are wasteing your time. A model trimming weekend would do a lot more good than critiqueing people flying mistrimmed models.

Get their planes flying right, and they will learn to fly right on their own. Touch up the flight pattern later.

     The issue (not illustrated in this thread, but in plenty of others), that once it can get through a pattern in most conditions, people think it *is* flying correctly, and it can be really hard to shake them out of that idea, and they start trying to defend their current system. After all, they got it to that point after sometimes years or decades of trying, and since it was really hard, and they have learned to fly it that way, changing it seems crazy.

     Even if you fix it, their flights will frequently degenerate for at least a while because they have built up years of bad habits. So it reinforces their feeling that they have some special issue that requires it to be they way they had it. They genuinely believe it, they aren't trying to be pains or be bad guys, they just cannot accept that it's not already ideal or that they need special circumstances different from everyone else, or that they "aren't good enough pilot to take advantage of it", etc.

     Same thing happens with equipment. For examples, look at almost any SSW post with the 6 characters "FOX 35" appearing in it. There's nothing in the world about Fox 35 performance that someone, a lot of true experts, know about how it works and how it compares to other stunt engines. And yet, when you point it out, it's like you painted a moustache on the Mona Lisa, and take it personally, and are convinced you have some ulterior motive for such slanderous lies.

    There was no one in the world that knew more about competing with a Fox 35 than did Bob Gieseke. He ran a piped PA65 for the last 15 years of his life!

     Brett


Online Dennis Nunes

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 07:51:08 AM »
Further, giving them a chance to fly a well trimmed plane will do wonders as they will get some idea what they are supposed to fly like.

Great idea, I would love to fly Brett's Infinity or your P-47.   ;D
But I have a feeling that would fall into the category of "a snowballs chance in ... a very hot place" or somewhere between "slim and none".   LL~

Dennis

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 10:32:53 AM »
I am such a hack that I would be terribly intimidated to even consider flying a PW or BB or any other professional pilots competition built aircraft.

BUT once I met each and they did a flying clinic on what Right looks like.... and later had each of us newby wannbe pilots fly a beater BBTU Skyray esq plane in good trim...I would get in line

Hopefully not Bogart someone like BB's or PW's time and have some (no offense intend) lesser coach like Tim or Mark help me with basis maneuvers

I know full well that this clinic is NOT intended for beginners....but even WE need some reference to how to fly, have fun, and at least know what right looks and feels like

So Mark tells Tim...hey go show Fred how NOT to fly inverted with a tail heavy plane and then I will coach him how it is done

I am sure in one weekend I could go from "ain't he precious" to "bless his heart"

So later, when I maiden a SV 11 ARF it might survive.... OH well no hurry, seems like they might not arrive in time for Xmas this year
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2017, 10:33:39 PM »
If someone is willing to set it up, I would certainly be willing to assist on a regular basis, every few weeks or so to start, and maybe monthly afterwards. Either Woodland or Napa would be fine with me, although Woodland obviously permits more overall action. It doesn't have to be all that formal, what we did was a slightly skewed version of what we would do in a regular flying session. It might just be me in most cases, but I suppose there might be a few celebrities drop by from time to time.

    In fact, setting up a series of sessions would suggest a different approach - trimming in the first few, and transitioning to coaching as it became possible (because I think in a lot of cases, coaching wasn't going to help all that much).

     If anyone wants to take up the task of organizing everything, come up with a plan and we can work it (my availability, and others availability, and don't counter-program a contest, of course).

       Brett

Offline Target

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Re: Get trimming advice from a “Top Dog”
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2018, 08:59:01 PM »
If you guys are planning to do an event like this again after "winter", I would be interested in making the drive up there....

I'll be watching. Need some advance notice to take off from the four-letter-word--- WORK! But sounds like fun and sounds productive.
I need to start doing some of what I want and less work!

R,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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