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Author Topic: Future of Control Line  (Read 10276 times)

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2018, 06:10:07 PM »
I hope nobody minds if I stick my Al's Models 4 download link on here.  It includes  190,000 words, 1640 photos and pages and 25 minutes of video.  Maybe it is too much for newcomers to the hobby but there is an awful lot about building, painting and competition, some of which should please most.  This is all free just for clicking the link.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkHUtj971Jgk_k-N5vVQX_as0dcVexiz4Al

Al

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2018, 06:47:57 PM »

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2018, 07:11:19 PM »
Ken,
It isn't my intention to call out any particular group of people..

I do know a few top fliers and the ones that I interact with have been genuine, down-to-earth and pleasant with me..

So while I do know and have seen what you are referring to, I haven't directly had to deal with that, thankfully.. Although I generally don't go to many contests because to me dealing with that sort of thing isn't worth the cost, time and effort.

In any hobby you get folks who are pompous know-it-alls who find a perverse joy in showing off their knowledge and belittling others. I've seen it in Model Train clubs, car clubs, plane-spotter clubs, Classical Music societies (often they are the worst) and art clubs. And it isn't generally the "top" people in the group.. Often it's the one who isn't quite at the top but who desperately wants to be. Although yes, there have been some I have seen where the "Top" person does throw his/her weight around and you either cow-tow to them or you are run off..

Online Forums in general tend to elicit this type of behavior, however. People say things on a forum they would NEVER say to a person's face. 

Yet behind a computer screen we seem to find it so easy to launch a vicious attack and "verbally" destroy someone over the most trivial of topics.

"If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names." - Elbert Hubbard

And when people leave for this reason, they generally just disappear..

And finally someone notices they are gone and says "Where is so and so? And someone else says: "He got out of the hobby.." And someone else says "Why?" "Don't know, said he just doesn't have time for it anymore." 

Maybe.. But maybe he also just got tired of dealing with attitudes..

My point is that for a hobby that is in decline we cannot afford to run folks off.

To do so we only hasten our demise and hurt ourselves in the long run.

How many in the membership list here used to be active but now aren't?

Something to think about..

Last of my 2c..

All the best,

Mark

I quite agree with everything you just said.  My point, though clumsily made is that the group of fliers that make up what I would call the "Elite" are not as concerned with the general health of the hobby as they are with improving their rankings within it.  As a result we sometimes see their frustrations as rudeness or arrogance when in reality they are simply reacting to having not achieved a goal that they have dedicated so much time and money towards.  Away from competition most are some of the finest and most supportive people you can find.  A lot of it is us not understanding or appreciating just how seriously they take winning and some of it is simple jealousy.  There are very few "naturals" in this sport.  Most have made it to the top by studying and relentless practice.  They deserve our respect but that does not give them a license to act like fools either.  The sad part is that there are so few that act this way yet the damage they do is horrific. 

As for this forum, I see very little of what we are discussing here.  Most everyone is civil, some are a bit arrogant at times but compared to most social media forums, this one is a winner.

Ken
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Offline mike londke

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2018, 09:04:08 PM »
Quite a few JRs. flying combat these days.
AMA 48913  USPA D-19580  NRA Life Member  MI State Record Holder 50 way Freefall Formation Skydive  "Don't let the planet sneak up on you"

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2018, 09:38:40 PM »
Hello Mike
 Yes the allure of combat attracts the young fliers when they reach that age, even young Max is displaying combat flying tendencies now (another crunch with Otto's stunt model yesterday, trying to invent a whole new pattern   ;D ).
Regards Gerald  #^ ~> #^ ~>

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2018, 10:31:33 PM »
I hope nobody minds if I stick my Al's Models 4 download link on here.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkHUtj971Jgk_k-N5vVQX_as0dcVexiz4Al

Al

Thank you for posting this.  I learned a lot from you back in the late 70's.  I will never forget the first time I saw you fly the Sea Fury.  I still think it was the most innovative and beautiful stunt ship ever built even if the Mustangs flew better.  It is going to be fun reading through all of this.

Ken
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2018, 02:19:29 AM »
I fully agree, it is flying AND building, ARFs will not trigger creativity, such model is for kids only a toy - play, and then take somethink else. We have lot of kids here, just because there are people able to take their attention making models with them. Just check front row on first picture. It is from out latest contest. The other pictures show how they were attracted on schools with gyms. Kid which see that he can can build model with the same quality of flying like old guys flying contests for years are really motivated to do it further.

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2018, 08:10:11 AM »
One point often overlooked is the sparsity of flying friends and the ability to have access to an advanced flyer that can actually improve your flying ability.
In my instance it was over 90 miles either north or south to get to a flying session and there were only 3 people in 3 counties that were actually engaged in the hobby.
we are a relatively small group of people left doing this and it is basically pointless to have a solitary hobby. It is tragic to build and have as your flying associate your trusty stooge. Having a few contests spread out over 5/600 miles or more is not an answer to the problem.
Point is that it is nice to remember the past but tragic to live in the past. we really are a group headed to extinction.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2018, 09:56:08 AM »
If I had only realized this years ago, it is not contests that draw people to model flying.  It is the building sessions followed by flying for the fun of it that will keep it going.   Yes, I pushed youngsters into competition and where are they now?   Igor is lucky in that has an area that promotes the activity for the youngsters.   Here in the US where do we have the planes he has that young people can afford.   Those look easy enough to build/assemble and fly.   I remember the late Jim Walker saying the Fire Baby was an almost give away plane ready to fly.    It was the Fire Cat and other of his kits that made money. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

mark romanowitz

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2018, 10:37:17 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:24:21 PM by mark romanowitz »

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2018, 10:51:27 AM »
Once upon a time in a land far away we used to fly indoor at our local grade school gym.  They would leave it open for us in the evenings and the janitor would lock up when we left.  That same school today would have me arrested.  As long as we have lawyers running everything we will never be able to have the kind of success Igor is experiencing.

Ken
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2018, 11:17:22 AM »
Igor,

Are the plans for those indoor electric control line planes available somehwere? Do you sell them?

Is there a materials list somewhere?

Something like this would be very useful getting younger folks into it. Low cost, no mess, no noise.. In my area being able to fly indoors in a gym would be an advantage due to hard winters and often windy conditions.

Let me know..

Thanks,

Mark

We had home page for indoor GeeBee, unfortunatelly it has gone. I can post link to Youtube wher Paul W. comments his visit on our contest. BUt YT has more videos from such actions.



Luis O. did plan for GeeBee, I cannot upload here, because of size limit, I uploaded it on my home page for some time and you can download here:

http://maxbee.net/download/geebee_cl.pdf

Offline CircuitFlyer

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2018, 04:48:24 PM »
I've flown my version of Igors Indoor Gee Bee for the past couple of winters.  It's been a lot of fun, thank you Igor for the great design.  FWIW I've attached a PDF of my version of the foam parts (both the full ANSI "E" size sheet and tiled for US Letter size sheets).  Search this forum for lots of detailed build information.  Unfortunately, there are challenges, the North American manufacturers of Depron have stopped supplying the hobby market several years ago.  Igors timers work very well, I used a low RPM version of the KR Governor.  Good Luck.

Paul
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Spinning electrons in circles in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada DIY Control Line Timers - www.circuitflyer.com

mark romanowitz

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2018, 10:27:10 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 12:24:41 PM by mark romanowitz »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2018, 10:52:11 AM »
That should be a great combo.  I may try electric one of these years, but having too much fun taking it out on the IC engines.   By the way the Hobo is flying great for me again. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2018, 06:17:34 PM »
Just a few things that haven't turned up so far... A great deal of excellent comment so far!

The first CL I ever saw was flown on the ruins of Luna Park, Coney Island, Brooklyn. NY. The Park had burned down either just before or early during WW2 and remained undeveloped for several years. The circles used were just below the elevated easternmost tracks at the Stilwell Avenue terminal of BMT subway lines. Date? About 1946-47. All BMT lines converged there to bring people to the Coney Island beaches and  circus-like Boardwalk rides and concessions. Tried to get a closer look on next beach outings. No luck. Timing?

Next was a legendary Armory toy and recreation show in Manhattan, about 1948, where several fliers demonstrated CL in a cage maybe 45' across! Too cramped!! But the sound and aroma were there...

Found model aircraft magazines soon afterwards. They covered of all aspects about equally, whether it was the dozen or fewer RC pioneers, the hundred or so indoor microfilm FF specialists, the thousands of outdoor FF fliers or the growing hundreds and thousands in CL's boom years. it read as if all were happening universally, and heavily attended.

Succeeded with a very few dime Comet "scale" rubber FF kits, then discovered engines, Not really room in my Brooklyn neighborhood to fly even the AJ sheet wing, balloon tank profile, and no car in the family..

Motivation will out, anyhow. At about 12, did succeed with CL, an own-design on McCoy 098 'power.' It could fly level with a strong enough hand launch. Overweight. I did "loop" it occasionally. More of a lap with one side higher and me leaning way back to see it instead of turning with it. From there, onward and upward. As when I got three laps behind my first flight on a Flite Streak before it completed one lap!  A case of PIO!! Repaired, it lasted a several more years.

So far, no need for outside encouragement. The magazines practically pushed RC, in days when an airborne pack could weigh several pounds. Controls only gave Neutral -or Left rudder  -or Right rudder, with a possibly a blip to shift the engine between high and low speed... Much progress since, but it not a huge involved number back then. Reeds, Galloping Ghost, proportional and other approaches were years later.

Then as now, magazines must make money to stay in business. They favor "the industry," which buys advertising space, and is sweetened by featured and favorable reviews of their latest toys uh, products.

Coverage of other aspects doesn't pay as well, and the most intricate expertise in, E.g., Indoor FF techniques, or a reduced depth coverage of World Championship results for one aspect or another, may appear. The few who do create are still appearing  IF it's RC.

I did several AMA Delta Dart sessions with local middle schoolers. X-Acto knives, CyA glues, etc. The kids were nervous at first, but got into it. Didn't believe their own 'monstrosity' would ever fly. The looks on their faces when that foolproof baby actually did? A deep reward to me, as their guide to that point. But none of them ever came back to go further with building model planes.

Groups of kids that age and a bit older, offered a CL flight on a Guillow's profile trainer type. Both of us on the handle until the kid got the feel. Most crashed, damaging the plane. Their comments? "Gee, that was cool. When you get it fixed I'd like to do it again." No sign of interest in putting their own Ukie together. This occasionally over the past 25 years. Finally decided that my head was not going to break down that brick wall..

The concept of building something to fly is alien to a lot of people, today. Why bother? The department store toys look much nicer and they are ready to go almost as soon as you open the box. But they ARE all junk. Whaddya mean did I read the instructions?  Or ask somebody to get me started? You think I'm stupid or something? They just won't fly; it's a ripoff...

We occasionally have parent, and/or 'local hero' problems, too. Dad feels it would be nice to do something together with Junior. They find, or may have seen, a local RC club flying. They connect. The local self-appointed Flight Instructor guides their purchases and trains them to the basics. He is often of limited ability. A trainee going beyond his ability would lower his 'hero pilot' standing. Meanwhile, Junior learns quicker and better than Dad. Dad loses interest in carrying Junior out to the field for him to be humiliated. Neither has a 'next step up' to pursue, or a reason to seek one.  They gradually slip away.
 
In several years as an RC Club Officer, I saw large Membership turnover cycles of about two years, as this stagnation point took effect.

It's fine for the industry. They get to sell to a steady, consistent beginner level market.

Traditionally, we in CL SHOULD have less of this, since we need someone to launch for us and help us clear the circle. We also encourage and help new buddies to improve. We take pride in seeing a new guy develop beyond our level. Those who carp and abuse may be few, but they can be loud. In our present days of hypersensitivity, few see reason to keep that in perspective.

My prognosis for the future of CL? It won't long survive us. I am one of the oldest fliers in this discussion - I'll be 80 late next year - and to my knowledge only Lew Woolard and possibly Glen Allison and Keith Trostle "outrank" me. We've had a good time. and several younger guys enjoy being part of what we started. Whether they can form that into something that will endure for their active futures, is something I might see, but probably won't. Not gloomy or morbid! Not eager to "look up at the grass" either, but can accept that will eventually happen.

Anyway, smile! It really bugs those who disagree with you....
\BEST\LOU

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2018, 10:28:04 PM »
The future is here. Well, we can see it anyway. My kids fly, they tell their friends. Maybe more will join us. We have a lot of fun, and I guess we'll see where it goes.

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2018, 03:01:26 AM »
Wonderful!!

The kids have to want to do it. We should work at passing along the pleasures we've enjoyed, too. But NOT to force it, or drag any into it. Unwanted force almost always meets a counterforce...

The skills of any constructive hobby apply in so many areas of our lives that that alone should encourage support for such activities. Instead, we have to rely on trained and licensed specialists for simple things that are now regulated to extremes. Used to tinker with car engines, but now when you open the hood of many cars you can't even see the engine. Plumbing? Wiring repairs? Etc., etc. ... A constructive hobby can give the confidence to DO many simple things for ourselves.

It is still possible, though many don't see it worth the effort. Our hobby does require individual effort, and that can - usually does - bring a sense of reward and accomplishment that others will never know. It also instills a sense of advancement by further effort. In CL we can easily go beyond boring circular holes in the sky, which too easily turn into VERY boring holes in the sky...

It's worth it, and you meet great friends... You go around in the BEST circles!
\BEST\LOU

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2018, 06:44:16 PM »
YES , was going to say ' Overseas ' , Latin America , Europe etc , China & Japan , Er ASIA ?? . there still appears to be a ' Air Age ' .

Perhaps peopleee aircraft as destructive or as buses , in some places ,  :o :-\ . To high a population density to have any room , in walking / cycling distance for kids .

Though once 50 miles return was ' no problem ' , for stroppy youths on bicycles .

Offline Frank Egyed

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2018, 06:51:00 AM »
I think that because we’re looking from our perspective of satisfaction, pride, patience, problem-solving, the achievement of thinking through, then completing a multi-faceted task, then finally flying a worthy aircraft, I think we’re not seeing the wood for the trees.

Today I can go buy a fully aerobatic RC Pitts Special, screw the wings on, add battery, receiver and fly, for a hundred bucks. On top of this, I can cyano it back together and be flying again within fifteen minutes of crashing. And possibly most importantly, it hasn’t cost much more than dinner and a movie for two.

This is what today’s generation is used to, and to try to entice new modellers with all the things which tickle our funny-bones, is using the wrong bait. If we want to get with the times, we need to make it easy to assemble and fly a plane that’s capable and looks realistic. You can do it with RC.

I started with a plastic PT-19 with a Cox 049, held together with rubber bands. The firewall had 3 positions – training (very nose-down), intermediate (little nose-down), and advanced (no nose-down), and oh-boy, the trainer position was stable. So maybe an e-foamie that looks cool - like a Pitts special? Who doesn’t love a biplane? Or maybe a Spitfire, or Mustang, or maybe a WWII range which includes a Me-109 and Fw-190 (with all the same specs just different shapes so they’re ‘even’, and maybe only 2 firewall positions  nose-down and level) so a few kids can buy them and combat. Or more importantly for US to buy and combat ;)  Imagine how good that would look from the road :)

I’m no expert, but I do watch my kids’ reaction to listening to me talk about what makes me happy about flying, and the only thing that lights their eyes up is the ‘flying’ bit. Sad but true. We can @#$%’n’moan about “the old days” and “values”, but “today” is what it is, and people are used to “now”.

Flying a cool capable plane is instantly accessible in RC. I think if we have any chance of keeping our sport alive, we need something like this - cheap’ish, easy to get going, flies well, easy to repair, and most importantly, looks cool so the kids can be proud to show their plane off to their mates. They need to gain cred-points, not be labelled a nerd, and let's face it, an RC WWII fighter is just plain cool. So why not a CL WWII fighter?

Am I pissing in the wind here...? Do I have my head so far up my perceptions that I can't see out anymore? Please howl me down if I’m barking up the wrong tree… If you don't, I WILL continue to gnaw this bone 'coz I think I'm onto something here. And now I've run out of dog metaphors...

You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2018, 10:45:04 AM »
In hind sight I think the flying is what the kids want to do with out all the fuss of building a plane.  Also I think I made a mistake into talking the three grandkids into fly in a contest. Only Emmy flew in more than one contest but then friends convinced her she shouldn't be playing with toy planes.   I would be so happy if I could get them all out to fly the planes I have for just flying.   Back when I had a few guys flying back in the 70's it was for fun.   First weekend I went to a contest most quit coming to the circle.  Now I go fly and seldom do a pattern.  Get my kicks flying the Vagabond that flies like a Bi-Slob and the B-25 that people say shouldn't do aerobatics.   Have one grand child that I don't think will grow up so I can have my vehicle so I can set a schedule.  Grandma is no help either.   But, Dane it is great you have those youngsters that want to fly.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2018, 12:39:30 PM »

I’m no expert, but I do watch my kids’ reaction to listening to me talk about what makes me happy about flying, and the only thing that lights their eyes up is the ‘flying’ bit. Sad but true. We can @#$%’n’moan about “the old days” and “values”, but “today” is what it is, and people are used to “now”.


I am not sure there is any answer to the problem.  Certainly the hook for new blood is flying but, because we have been shoved out of virtually any flying place where the general public can see us makes that rather difficult.  When I was a kid there wasn't an afternoon that you couldn't hear an .049 running somewhere within earshot.  I haven't heard one in 30 years.  Most of us can remember when line length was half the distance between the trees in the back yard.  My point is, how are we going to get them excited about flying if there is no place to fly?  My submission to the "Ideas that probably won't work" list would be to have low cost electric ARF planes fully built available at a reasonable price and start convincing schools and parks that our new silent toys are not dangerous and we need a place to fly them.  It would also be nice if we started thinking in terms of .15 sized planes more.  It is easier to find a 100' clearing than it is a 150'.  Finally, BOM and appearance points are for Classic/N-30 and Expert only.


OR - maybe we are just Dinosaurs looking for a tar pit.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2018, 04:27:17 PM »
How much would it cost to replicate one of Carl Goldbergs slab wing planes with an RSM Dist power set up.  I think the late Jim Walker of A-J Aircraft stated the 1/2A Fire Baby was his break even product which then people bought the Fire Cat. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 08:46:31 PM »
Just a thought ,

it appears that the northern latitudes types provide AVIATION as a school skylable , With MODEL Aviation as a Sector of THAT .

With that the model aircraft bit is more of a science , and part of a broader plot and scheme of futer trades / tecnitions / scientists / designers ,
Rather than ' toy aeroplanes ' . So is taken in a rather more serious / studious vein .

All in the PRESENTATION ??

When it was encouraged by corporations and for armed forces recruitment , in the U.S. it was hugely popular .

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2018, 02:19:25 AM »
Do they look like dinosaurs?  ;D

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2018, 02:20:56 AM »
.........

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Future of Control Line
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2018, 10:53:48 AM »
.........
I would love to have such a program in the US but first you would have to find a school that would allow it.  Matt is 100% correct, "When it was encouraged by corporations and for armed forces recruitment , in the U.S. it was hugely popular ."  Now it is encouraged by no one and between the lawyers and pinheads in local government this could only happen here if it were in some way a progressive fundraiser.
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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