Author Topic: Fuels (Read 8319 times)

Brian Massey · « **on:** March 25, 2010, 06:25:41 PM »

My local hobby shop says they are having trouble getting Power Master Fuel, and that the company may be going under. I've been using their 10/22 (50/50 blend) fuel and been happy with it. I looked on the Sig site and they have a 10/20 50/50 blend. Anyone dropped in enough castor to bring it up to 22% lub? If so, any real noticeable difference? I'll be using it in an LA46 and a B40.

What about their FAI 0% nitro fuel? It's a 20% 50/50 blend; anyone tried that?

Brian

Leester · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2010, 03:02:57 AM »

I run the Sig 5% or 10% Nitro 20% oil in my OS engines with no problems what so ever. I believe Brodak sells a 22% oil fuel if you can stand shipping charges.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:36:36 AM »

I used the Powermaster 10-22, 50/50 for many years without problems.

A few years back, I switched to the Brodak 10-23, 50/50 and I'm very pleased. I run it in ALL my glow engines and have never experienced a problem.
I found a new-in-box 1953 Fox 35 at a swap meet. It was was run in with the Brodak fuel and has run on nothing else since. Hundreds of flights and the piston fit and front bushing are still like new. I truly do not believe in using 25 to 29% straight castor in a Fox.

I might add that I also ran many used Foxes on the Powermaster and Brodak fuels. Most of these engines were well used and well carboned up from years of straight castor. I never saw a performance deterioration in any of them.

Fortunately, I visit Brodak quite often so I can save the shipping costs.

If anyone lives close by, it may be a wise idea to get a large club order and have someone go to Brodak's and pick it up. It's a nice place to visit and the hobby shop is very well equipped. You can often get a tour of the manufacturing facility when you visit - definitely worth it.

OR, you could come to the Fly-In!!!!!

Bob Z.

SteveMoon · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2010, 08:18:56 AM »

Brian: I have used the Sig 50/50 (Champion fuel) for years. There is no need
to add any castor. Myself, Bob G, my brother, Mike Scott and several others
of us here in TX swear by Sig fuel. Over the years it has been the most
consistent from gallon to gallon and case to case. I just placed an order for
14 cases two days ago. I am using a gallon of 10% right now that sat in my
garage for 5 years and have had no problems at all with it.

Later, Steve

Garf · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2010, 11:57:40 AM »

I got a bad gallon a while back of Sig Champion Castor. I have been mixing my own ever since.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #5 on:** March 26, 2010, 02:14:32 PM »

I agree with Steve. I have heard of bad Sig fuel, but never experienced any.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2010, 02:19:04 PM »

Quote from: SteveMoon on March 26, 2010, 08:18:56 AM

Brian: I have used the Sig 50/50 (Champion fuel) for years. There is no need
to add any castor. Myself, Bob G, my brother, Mike Scott and several others
of us here in TX swear by Sig fuel. Over the years it has been the most
consistent from gallon to gallon and case to case. I just placed an order for
14 cases two days ago. I am using a gallon of 10% right now that sat in my
garage for 5 years and have had no problems at all with it.

Later, Steve

Same here. I had some bad Power Master once and never went back. All I use is Sig Champion 5% 10% 15% depending on temperature

Scott B. Riese · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2010, 03:29:30 PM »

NEVER HAD A BAD SIG FUEL.
Yes powermaster is gone...
What WE need to do is as a collective, IS, let a manufacture know WE (control line fliers ) Need their help.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:24:46 PM »

I gave you some bad Sig fuel.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #9 on:** March 26, 2010, 07:01:18 PM »

My google fu is too weak to get a straight answer on Powermaster fuel being out of business. For every assertion that they are closed, there is one saying they are still open. I have yet to have had a bad can of Powermaster, but I only have used 40 or so gallons, so thats a pretty small sample size. Sig has been great except for the leaky jug fiasco a few years ago, which wasn't so much about the product as compared to what held the product.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2010, 07:11:12 PM »

I use Excalibur fuel from Mark Smith. He is a member here and his profile has his e-mail.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2010, 07:23:45 AM »

Power Master had agreed to provide fuel for the team this year as they had done in years past. I got an email a month or two ago saying that no body could get in touch with them. The team is now using fuel from a company in Europe.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2010, 09:28:25 AM »

Thanks for all the input!

For myself, I have experienced no problems with the PowerMaster fuel I've burned. I guess now I have to see what the hobby shop is going to replace the PowerMaster with. I think I'll see if they will go to Sig.

I would like to blend my own, but getting nitro in CA is impossible.

Brian

Scott B. Riese · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2010, 09:53:40 AM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on March 26, 2010, 04:24:46 PM

I gave you some bad Sig fuel.

Worked great in my 1/2A engine's

Will Hinton · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2010, 09:56:13 AM »

Except for one year when I forgot to order before the Toledo Show I've used Randy Rich's fuel. He custom mixes it for no extra charge, is reasonable in price, and, for me, brings it to the Toledo Show for no extra charge. The fuel has performed flawlessly since 1990 and I've burned a lot of it.
The year I forgot to order I used Sig fuel with no problems.

Chuck Feldman · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2010, 11:36:01 AM »

Good Fuel = Sig Champion. Hazmat shipping makes for most fuel problems (cost). I use 25% oil (fox) and 20% oil half and half. Nitro is 5%, 10% as needed 25% is on hand for when it really gets to hot days.

I miss the smell of NitroBenzene like we used in the 50's.

In case you don't know it smells like shoe polish. (sweet)

Pinecone · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:18:00 AM »

Quote from: Brian Massey on March 27, 2010, 09:28:25 AM

I would like to blend my own, but getting nitro in CA is impossible.

Brian

If you hit the AMA Show in Ontario in the Jan, John Klotz is there and he brings nitro. Contact him ahead of time and he will brnig what you need. Oil too.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2010, 09:30:45 AM »

Chuck wrote:
"I miss the smell of NitroBenzene like we used in the 50's.

In case you don't know it smells like shoe polish. (sweet)"

I really like that smell. I have a bottle of nitrobenzine and I normally put one teaspoon in every gallon of fuel. Smells great.

Bob Z.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2010, 09:48:09 AM »

Quote from: Pinecone on March 29, 2010, 08:18:00 AM

If you hit the AMA Show in Ontario in the Jan, John Klotz is there and he brings nitro. Contact him ahead of time and he will brnig what you need. Oil too.

Thanks, I'll put that on my calendar.

Brian

Chuck Feldman · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2010, 09:54:02 AM »

Bob Z.

Next time I see you I may ask for some Benzine to make my fuel bring back good memories.

Chuck

Randy Powell · « **Reply #20 on:** March 29, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »

With the demise of Powermaster, I'm back to using Wildcat fuel. Never had a problem. I use the 10/20 all synthetic in most engines. For the couple that require more lube, I use the 10/22, half synth, have castor. And I can get if from the local hobby shop.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #21 on:** March 29, 2010, 11:05:15 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on March 29, 2010, 10:13:42 AM

With the demise of Powermaster, I'm back to using Wildcat fuel. Never had a problem. I use the 10/20 all synthetic in most engines. For the couple that require more lube, I use the 10/22, half synth, have castor. And I can get if from the local hobby shop.

The Wildcat fuel smells good too!

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #22 on:** March 29, 2010, 11:15:08 AM »

we had a little club contest way back when. I think it may have been some kind of endurance. Anyway my father had an old can of nitro-benzene and threw a little in our fuel to get better mileage. Well, when guys started smelling it, they all scattered and made a big deal about the dangers of smelling that stuff.

I do agree it smells great!

I will add I'm not stirring the pot. I just wanted to share my experience with you

Tom

Pinecone · « **Reply #23 on:** March 29, 2010, 05:43:24 PM »

From Wikipedia - Nitrobenzene is highly toxic (TLV 5 mg/m3) and readily absorbed through the skin.

Although nitrobenzene is not currently known to be a carcinogen, prolonged exposure may cause serious damage to the central nervous system, impair vision, cause liver or kidney damage, anemia and lung irritation. Inhalation of fumes may induce headache, nausea, fatigue, dizziness, cyanosis, weakness in the arms and legs, and in rare cases may be fatal. The oil is readily absorbed through the skin and may increase heart rate, cause convulsions or rarely death. Ingestion may similarly cause headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting and gastrointestinal irritation.

OSHA limit is 1 part per million. NOT nice stuff.

But like anything, handled properly, not a huge problem.

BTW the NIOSH Guide mentions testicular damage.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #24 on:** March 29, 2010, 05:56:10 PM »

I was just reflecting on that last bit, thinking that I was lucky, given the overexposure to oil of mirbane in my youth. However, the experiment had no control. I can barely magine what might have been.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #25 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:55:29 PM »

I used to clean my engines with carbon tet, and sifon fuel from the can with my mouth. I am sure it will kill me one day, as I am only 69. I use to sifon a lot of gasoline also, PTOOOOY. Did I mention I used to cut asbestos brake and clutch material with a cut off wheel in a machine shop. I think my gaurdian angel has worked overtime.

Pinecone · « **Reply #26 on:** March 30, 2010, 10:46:53 AM »

It is all in the dose.

EVERYTHING is toxic, if you get a high enough dose.

And the whole point of knowing, is to limit the dose.

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2010, 11:44:44 AM »

Agreed Terry, and I probably would wear gloves when handling it raw now that we are better informed.

I apologise to to Bob Z. for starting the chaos.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2010, 05:46:18 PM »

Hi, Tom - no appology necessary. You did exactly the right thing. Anytime there is a potential health or safety issue, it should be announced.

I have heard similar stories about the toxicity of nitrobenzine and I therefore approach it with caution. I "spike" my fuel with a very small amount, mainly for the nostalgic smell.

One year at VSC, I had an interesting conversation with a very well known stunt flyer. He pontificated on the evils of nitrobenzine, stating quite adamantly what an intense carcinogenic it was. During the conversation, he chain smoked around three cigarettes!

During the fifties, many of the people I flew with in Buffalo, NY did speed (the event, not the drug!

) and the distinctive smell of nitrobenzine was always present. During the winter, we even had some indoor events where we flew in huge hangars at the Niagara Falls National Guard hanger. The smoke was so intense that it was difficult to see across the circle. Yet, of the many people I knew up there, I do not know of anyone who passed away due to complications caused by nitrobenzine.

Anyone else know of anybody?

Bob Z.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #29 on:** March 31, 2010, 05:44:56 AM »

I too remember vaguely the people that used the shoe polish in their fuels. Almost every one of them made it into their 80's and 90's. I guess it takes a while as that was almost 60 years ago and they are now heading for better places.

Pinecone · « **Reply #30 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:21:48 AM »

Quote from: Robert Zambelli on March 30, 2010, 05:46:18 PM

One year at VSC, I had an interesting conversation with a very well known stunt flyer. He pontificated on the evils of nitrobenzine, stating quite adamantly what an intense carcinogenic it was. During the conversation, he chain smoked around three cigarettes!

Not unusual.

I once did a survey of a plant for asbestos. One shop, the shop foreman came over and wanted to make sure I did NOT miss the asbestos in his area. Because he wanted it removed, it was hazardous, etc, etc. So cool it makes it easier on me, if they point it out, so I asked him what it was that was a problem. And he pointed to a single pipe elbow, up about 3 feet in the corner. ONLY asbestos material in this area.

The wild thing was, this was the chrome plating shop. The floor and all surfaces were yellow with hexavalent chrome, and let's not talk about the acids used in the process.

Pinecone · « **Reply #31 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:23:04 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on March 31, 2010, 05:44:56 AM

I too remember vaguely the people that used the shoe polish in their fuels. Almost every one of them made it into their 80's and 90's. I guess it takes a while as that was almost 60 years ago and they are now heading for better places.

It is all in the dose. And there is lots of evidence that most things have a deminimus exposure, that below that level is not harmful at all. And in many cases, it may actually be a good thing.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2010, 11:23:07 PM »

Anybody tried Red Max fuels in recent years?

Alex Givan · « **Reply #33 on:** April 02, 2010, 07:35:45 AM »

  Hey Steve-
   Red Max Fuels (FHS) is still in business. Two weeks ago the wife and I made a short road trip to the place in Clover S.C.. We pluged the address into the GPS and found it well off the beaten path. Walked into the place and had the guy mix up some 5/29 right then and there, I was able to look over his shoulder and watch the whole process. I could have gotten any mix I wanted. I bought 4 gallons at the time and have gone through one so far, It seems to work fine and just under 84 bucks for the case out the door.

   For those of you coming to the contest at Waymer field in Huntersville N.C. Red Max is only about an hour or so away if you want to check it out and get a gallon or two to try.

   Also I would like to offer you or anyone coming to the contest at Waymer field at the end of the month, that I would be more than happy to pick some fuel up for you and bring it out to the field.http://

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #34 on:** April 02, 2010, 09:19:03 AM »

Thanks for the info Alex!

I had not heard of Red Max till Bill Little mentioned them to me the other day. Bill said alot of guys used it till Taff started making fuel back in the day.

Sig works great, but I have mileage issues with it in my Time Machine with the Troublestar 60. Powermaster 10 and 15/18 fuel gave me great performance with the mileage I needed, so I never looked back. I'll give FHS (Red Max) a call and see what blends they stock and see if I want to get some to test. I'll test the Sig again as well, as I have a couple of cases of it stocked up for my PA. Right now I have only 4 gallons of Powermaster left, which I may save since I might need it to get through the Nats. That leaves me trying to find something that will work for Huntersville and Marietta as well as practice...

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #35 on:** April 02, 2010, 09:51:56 AM »

I just got off the phone with Red Max, they were some very nice people to talk to on the phone!

It looks like they will blend whatever you want, for about 21 bucks a gallon for small (below 24 gallon) quantities. I have used Powermaster 10/18, anybody know the oil breakdown for that? I thought it was 16% synthetic/2% castor, but I'm not sure.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #36 on:** April 02, 2010, 11:06:24 AM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on April 01, 2010, 11:23:07 PM

Anybody tried Red Max fuels in recent years?

They pretty well lost me back in the "bad castor" era. After getting the same BS. over and over, about how I was a dumb C/L guy who was too stupid to realize I should want their proprietary "super oil" instead of the "bad castor" that "everybody" had. Call them up, and ask them about their castor oil supply, and if it is contaminated or not. If they suggest the "precipitation test" then just hang up and go get some SIG.

Brett

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #37 on:** April 02, 2010, 11:56:55 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 02, 2010, 11:06:24 AM

They pretty well lost me back in the "bad castor" era. After getting the same BS. over and over, about how I was a dumb C/L guy who was too stupid to realize I should want their proprietary "super oil" instead of the "bad castor" that "everybody" had. Call them up, and ask them about their castor oil supply, and if it is contaminated or not. If they suggest the "precipitation test" then just hang up and go get some SIG.

Brett

Hmmmm. That might put a damper on trying Red Max...

Brett Buck · « **Reply #38 on:** April 02, 2010, 12:06:35 PM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on April 02, 2010, 11:56:55 AM

Hmmmm. That might put a damper on trying Red Max...

If you can get something from them that works, I wouldn't let that stand in your way. Just go into it with all the information!

Brett

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #39 on:** April 02, 2010, 02:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on April 02, 2010, 12:06:35 PM

If you can get something from them that works, I wouldn't let that stand in your way. Just go into it with all the information!

Brett

Sorry, that was kinda what I meant, but I didn't state it very well. It doesn't cost much to test their product, and for the DS I really don't need any of their suspect castor anyway. Maybe their "super" synthetic will work. I hear the green sig with synthetic give better mileage than the Champion half castor fuel as well, so there are a number of options to test before the Nats roll around...

Steve

Alex Givan · « **Reply #40 on:** April 03, 2010, 03:57:20 PM »

For what it's worth I had the guy mix up 5/29 all Castor as I stood beside him watching the whole process. Castor and Nitro came out of sealed plastic jugs and the Methanol from an auto gas pump type of setup, also the guy added an ignitor agent and an antifoaming agent of about a 2oz total.

The place on a whole is dirty and very unorganized, OSHA would have a field day if a proper inspection was ever done, but the folks will work with you on what ever you want and appreciate your business.

What I got from them I have been very happy with, so have several members of my club. It's a good local family owned source that I will stick with until I get burned or get good enough to understand why I should be using something else.

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #41 on:** April 03, 2010, 04:46:32 PM »

Nitorbenzene, I remember it well. Out here on the left coast back in the sixties we could get O&R (Olsen and Rice) fuel it had the shoe polish smell. When they went out of business that was the last I ever saw of it. I too heard all the evil warnings about nitrobenzene but since it was not available it didn't matter. Sorry to hear about Powermaster, I used their fuel for many years. I too have used Red Max and to be honest I had no problems what so ever. They were one of the few companies that mixed diesel fuel in the gallons. I still have some. Currently I am getting my fuel from Excalibur or more recently RSM Distributions. They are both very good fuels.
Andy

Pinecone · « **Reply #42 on:** April 04, 2010, 04:45:45 PM »

Red Max also ships its fuel in quart containers, so no HazMat fee. They also have 1 gallons bottles, they ship empty.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #43 on:** April 09, 2010, 05:47:43 PM »

Well I stopped in my local hobby shop (Hobby Town USA) and they have replaced PowerMaster with Byrons Fuels. I purchased one gallon of the 10% nitro blend; it is 20% lub, split 80/20% synthetic to castor. They claim the castor is "degumed". It was $22 a gallon, plus the 10% "tip" to CA.

Anyone familiar with this fuel? If so, what did you think.

Brian

Brett Buck · « **Reply #44 on:** April 09, 2010, 06:22:10 PM »

Quote from: Brian Massey on April 09, 2010, 05:47:43 PM

Well I stopped in my local hobby shop (Hobby Town USA) and they have replaced PowerMaster with Byrons Fuels. I purchased one gallon of the 10% nitro blend; it is 20% lub, split 80/20% synthetic to castor. They claim the castor is "degumed". It was $22 a gallon, plus the 10% "tip" to CA.

Anyone familiar with this fuel? If so, what did you think.

I had great results with Byron. Of course, I had to pour it into SIG jugs to avoid hearing about it. Byron ran *very* smoothly and would reliably cure the "quit like you flipped a switch" flameouts for both me and several of my buddies. The only difference is that it runs very weakly for a given alleged nitro content - 15% Byron is not as strong as 10% SIG, for example. The solution was to buy the higher nitro versions than I would have otherwise. But overall I think it's excellent. And despite what you may hear elsewhere, the 20% oil "Traditional" fuel really did have about 18-19% oil by volume (based on boil-down tests).

I don't think it has enough oil for slug-piston engines but if it's AAC/ABC/Ringed I would say it's well worth a try.

Brett

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2010, 09:58:58 AM »

Thanks for the tip about Byron fuels as well. It seems that is another of the fuels we can get locally, in fact my buddy Artie had a jug of it at the field yesterday, I should have stolen a syringe full when he wasn't looking

I tested Sig 10% in my plane and found it will work okay as a substitute, as I did not have the significant mileage issues I had five years ago when I first switched to Powermaster. Switching back and forth, I was getting a 6:08 run with Powermaster 10% and a 5:59 run with sig, not touching the needle valve between tests flights. While sig does *completely change* the way my plane flies, it isn't something I won't be able to adapt to with some practice. I may save my last 4 gallons of known to be good Powermaster for the Nats, and use Sig for the upcoming local contests.

Andrew Borgogna · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2010, 11:02:48 AM »

Back in my R/C days I flew Byron Originals planes and used their fuel. I found the fuel excellent.
Andy

Brian Massey · « **Reply #47 on:** April 13, 2010, 05:56:00 PM »

Today I took my TT out and made the first flights with Byrons fuel. I have to say it was more than "OK". I had to adjust (leaned) the needle to gain a few hundred rpm's to get me to my "launch" speed, but the flight was very good with an excellent engine run. I ran 7 minutes and 57 seconds on 140cc's of fuel; with the PowerMaster the same 140cc gave me right at 7 minutes. The next flight I filled with 135cc's, and leaned the needle again. Now running about 5.2 laps with a run time of 7:15. (The TT weighs about 53 ounces and has an LA46 with a Master Airscrew 2 blade 11/6.)

The two most notible differences; the longer run time on the same amount of fuel; and, I seemed to get a better 4-2-4 break than with the PowerMaster. All in all, I think the Byrons fuel will do very nicely. So good infact, I will leave it in it's own container.

Brian