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Author Topic: FUEL TYPE  (Read 8632 times)

Offline raby fink

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FUEL TYPE
« on: February 01, 2009, 06:26:51 AM »
I am going to break in three new engines this week (OS 25, OS 40 and a Brodak .049). I bought a gallon of cool power 15%, synthetic fuel. I do not compete when flying. All I will be doing is flying for fun with a few stunts. Will this type fuel be all right to use with these engines?
Thanks
Raby

Offline John Stiles

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 07:56:20 AM »
Not sure on the .049, but I've had success with 10% and 15%. Maybe someone in this bunch will enlighten us both.... H^^
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Offline Garf

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 02:42:29 PM »
Hope you need some fishing weights.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 03:14:59 PM »
Mr. Fink.  I'm sure others will agree, you need to dump some castor oil into your all-synthetic fuel.  I'm not aware of the composition of Cool Power, but I believe is has NO castor oil.  You should add at least 10% more castor oil.  That means, for a gallon jug, you should add about 6 oz.  more or less.  Too much won't hurt, especially for break-in.

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Offline Wayne Collier

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 05:32:30 PM »
Not sure on the .049, but I've had success with 10% and 15%. Maybe someone in this bunch will enlighten us both.... H^^

I've never had a Brodak .049 so I don't know its particular requirements.  For the .049s I do own I use 15% Nitro Powermaster with 18% oil.  The oil is part castor and part synthetic.  So far I've noticed no ill effects.  If you have doubts, castor is easy to add and as has been stated a tad extra probably won't hurt.
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Alan Hahn

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »
I am going to break in three new engines this week (OS 25, OS 40 and a Brodak .049). I bought a gallon of cool power 15%, synthetic fuel. I do not compete when flying. All I will be doing is flying for fun with a few stunts. Will this type fuel be all right to use with these engines?
Thanks
Raby

First there is always a question about how much total oil is in the Morgan Fuel line (maker of Cool Power and Omega). I have heard things like 14% (but that could be wrong). That's one thing.

Secondly, in CL, you can't land if the engine goes lean on you--and flies 10 minutes at a sorry sagging rate. A little castor will help in that situation.

So between 1 and 2, you should add some extra oil simply to get the total in the 20% range, and from 2, it wouldn't hurt that that extra be castor.

Offline Pinecone

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 07:13:48 PM »
Cool Power is all synthetic, lowest oil content is 17%.  Omega is 70% synthetic, 30% castor, all are 17% oil, except Jet and Super Tigre.  Omega 4 stroke is 50/50.

Cool Power Blends:

http://www.morganfuel.com/cp_blends.htm

Omega Blends:

http://www.morganfuel.com/omega_blends.htm
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 08:14:38 PM »
Keep in mind that a lot of fuels for RC are mixed by weight instead of volume so that effectivly reduces the actual quantaty of oil in the fuel, I would say from all I have talked to that its closer to 14 or 15 percent oil by the standards we use, that being weight. I would definetly add some castor especially for break in.
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Offline Garf

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 08:19:15 PM »
I'm a believer in castor. My current mix for the ABC engines is 5/15/5 nitro/castor/synthetic. The OS LA's love it.

Offline raby fink

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 09:14:07 PM »
From all the entries so far, I am kinda confused. It has been 25 years since I have flown, and alot of this is new to me, especially all the different kinds of fuel. I am not confident I would add Castor correctly, so is there any brand and kind of fuel that would be better for my engines than the cool power that I have. I have not used any of it yet. I plan to do my break ins during the week or the weekend. If any of you have a brand and kind that I could just purchase ready to use please let me know.
Thanks for the help
Raby

Offline ray copeland

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 10:25:08 PM »
Hey Raby,, I too am not a long timer in this sport and all the questions you are asking are the same i pondered!! For my personal use i buy Omega 15% ( half synthetic and half castor lube) and go to Walmart and buy a couple of 6 oz bottles of castor oil in the pharmacy, i pour off enough of the fuel to add 8 oz of castor to  what is left in the gallon jug, i use this in all my bigger than 1/2 a engines,, mostly OS 25 la , fsr, fx, evo 36 , OS 46 and 20 fp. In my opinion this mix works very well.  For the 1/2 a engines , which i run a lot of,, i use omega 20 or 25 % right out of the jug,, ..  Hope this helps     Ray
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Offline John Stiles

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 08:15:19 AM »
Wow, I'm learning something....great thread right here. I have always been bumfuzzled by fuel problems that cropped up because of climate changes. In the hottest part of the summer, I have had overheating problems that ate a fox .15 motor...in the winter...starting difficulty. Does this mean: with the point about adding castor oil.....I might be better off in the summer, to add? And what do you pros use in the winter. I never have like the synthetic fuel because I was told long ago that at high rpms the synthetic oil detonated with the fuel and rendered your engine void of lubrication. More insight from y'all on this subject is certainly needed! I'm glad this subject has been brought up! Thanks H^^
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 08:20:50 AM »
It is worthwhile to read Randy Smith's "Sticky" at the top of the Engine Forum. He gives a good discussion about fuels.

Offline George

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 11:32:16 AM »
From all the entries so far, I am kinda confused. It has been 25 years since I have flown, and alot of this is new to me, especially all the different kinds of fuel. I am not confident I would add Castor correctly, so is there any brand and kind of fuel that would be better for my engines than the cool power that I have. I have not used any of it yet. I plan to do my break ins during the week or the weekend. If any of you have a brand and kind that I could just purchase ready to use please let me know.
Thanks for the help
Raby

Cool Power is all synthetic. Omega has blends of part castor, part synthetic. Most fuels we refer to as RC fuels are blended for use with larger engines. Those require less lube. As someone mentioned, some fuels quote percentages by weight. For that reason, a 17% lube may actually be 14% by volume. Most engines we use in CL (ABC, ABN, AAC) need 20% - 25% lube. Castor is messier but provides better protection when run hot. Iron pistons in steel cylinders, like that Fox .15 and older engines, need castor oil. Castor clings to the side of a cast iron piston and improves compression as the iron wears, extending the engine's life.

The major difference between ABC and iron/steel is how they react when run too lean. While the ABC will tend to become a looser fit and somewhat self regulating for temperature, the iron/steel will overheat and become tighter and either quit or go into thermal runaway which wears out the engine. Castor helps carry away a LOT of heat and provide a somewhat protective varnish whereas the synthetic will burn off and leave the engine without lubrication.

Castor is not hard to come by, most hobby shops carry it and it is available online from SIG and most other online hobby shops.

Since you already have the Cool Power, I would add the 6-8 ounces of castor and use it up. BTW, you can read ingredient and blend levels from Morgan and others online. Other folks have already suggested percentages. Good luck.

George
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Offline Pinecone

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 11:56:13 AM »
Can anybody point to FACT about some fuels being mixed by weight instead of volume?  it is pretty easy to check, put 100 ml in a graduated cylinder, and go back in a couple of days and see how much oil remains.  I will have to check some of my fuels.

Heli guys also need to have fairly robust lube packages.  High loads, high throttle openings and high RPM (17,000 or so).

Most Morgan Omega blends are 70/30 synthetic/castor.  Only the Omega 4 stroke fuel is 50/50.  See the link I posted.

But I like castor also, and add 1 - 1.5 ounces of castor to my heli fuel.  Not a lot, but it also helps with between use protection of the bearings.



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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 12:19:52 PM »
Terry,
Its a commonly known fact. It has been discussed many times on here and other forums. I doubt you will have much luck finding that info from the manufacture as they like to advertise their percentage, but no divulge the fact that it is a a weight percentage instead of a volume percentage ( the reason is speculation on my part)
I believe that you can just trust the word of some of the engine guys who KNOW engines on this one for your facts.  My guess is that you could do a search for "fuel " and "oil content" on here and SSW and get all you need to know about it from there. I would doubt that your evaporation experiment would yeild very exacting results but I could be wrong?
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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 01:45:57 PM »
Hi Raby
Just add 8 oz. of castor and you'll be good to go.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 04:05:16 PM »
Why take the chance?  I dumped a gallon of Cool Power after ruining two of my better sport engines.  I used Omega because it said it had some castor, but, as stated not enough when you have a lean run.  In the long run it is better to get the fuel you need from a reputable supplier.  Or have your local hobby shop order for you.  Our local shop ordered in 4 cases for us of the SIG 10% nitro 50/50 oil fuel.  Myself I don't mind paying the government fees for getting decent fuel.

Of course I have had one fuel manufacturer tell me to find someone who drag races and find out who has nitro or alcohol or both.  The castor can be gotten from SIG.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 12:57:55 AM »
I know that this is a really dumb question but, why not read the instructions and then ask about the fuels that will fit the engine manufacturer's specifications?  :!

Offline raby fink

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 04:28:53 AM »
I know this is a crazy question to but I am asking because I do not know the answer. When yall mention CASTOR, are you talking about castor oil that can be purchased at the pharmacy?

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 05:55:13 AM »
As far as I know, Byron is the only manufacturer that's been named as mixing by weight. There was a thread about it some years ago on SSW where evaporation tests were done that seemed to uphold the rumour (meaning it seems to be not a rumour :)). Of all the RC fuels, probably the best for CL would be the ducted fan fuels which usually have around 22% oil with some castor and (surprisingly) not overmuch nitro. Sig, Powermaster, Fox and Coopers all appear to make fuels with a decent amount of suitable oils. None of these of course are available in Australia so it's just what I've gleaned from web sites. Not that it matters because I've always mixed my own :).

Castor is castor oil similar to what's at a pharmacy but has extra checking to make sure there's no ricin poison left in it. It may also have some sweeteners in it too which could be why the Merco instructions warn against using it. It's also WAY more expensive than normal lubricating castor, the best of which must be Castrol M which unfortunately isn't available in America (but is in Australia :)).

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2009, 01:50:27 PM »
I know that this is a really dumb question but, why not read the instructions and then ask about the fuels that will fit the engine manufacturer's specifications?  :!

Becouse where I live I can only get Omega, my LHS will special order but the hasmat charge is so high it's not worth it so adding castor is the only way to go, been doing for years with no problem at all.

Offline raby fink

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 01:54:55 PM »
Dwayne
Where do you get your castor from?
Raby

Offline Pinecone

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2009, 07:53:35 AM »
Terry,
Its a commonly known fact. It has been discussed many times on here and other forums. I doubt you will have much luck finding that info from the manufacture as they like to advertise their percentage, but no divulge the fact that it is a a weight percentage instead of a volume percentage ( the reason is speculation on my part)
I believe that you can just trust the word of some of the engine guys who KNOW engines on this one for your facts.  My guess is that you could do a search for "fuel " and "oil content" on here and SSW and get all you need to know about it from there. I would doubt that your evaporation experiment would yeild very exacting results but I could be wrong?

Yeah, lots of things are COMMONLY known, and are not true.  And as I have said, I have heard that about just about every fuel, from people who fly a different fuel.  So if ALL the reports are true, ALL fuel manufacturers do that.  Oops, I don't think I have ever heard anyone acuse SIG of this. :)

Has anyone TESTED the various brands of fuel?

Like I said, it is super easy.  Put 100 ml of fuel in a graduated cylinder.  Wait a week or so and see how much is left.  The number of ml left is the % oil.

I am leaving on a business trip, when I get back I can test 3 different Morgan fuels, a Wildcar, and several SIG fuels.

If someone wants to send me a small quantity of any other fuel, I will be glad to test.  I need about 4 ounces of FRESH fuel.
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Offline Pinecone

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2009, 07:56:49 AM »
According to John Klotz, Sig gets their castor from Klotz.  So you can buy from Sig or buy from Klotz.

Interestingly, Morgan Cool Power is one of the top heli fuels.  And when a heli has a lean run, the problem is the hole in the top of the piston, not lube break down. :)
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Offline George

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2009, 09:10:34 AM »
According to John Klotz, Sig gets their castor from Klotz.  So you can buy from Sig or buy from Klotz.

Interestingly, Morgan Cool Power is one of the top heli fuels.  And when a heli has a lean run, the problem is the hole in the top of the piston, not lube break down. :)

One of the functions of the lube in fuel is to carry off heat. The center of the piston top, often referred to as "hell's kitchen" gets the least amount of heat removal. My GUESS is that when the synthetic flashes off, the castor can not handle heat removel...thus hole.

Whether it is 17% or 14%, IMHO neither is enough.

George
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Offline Bill Adair

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2009, 11:45:44 PM »
Terry,

When I was flying and instructing new R/C pilots, many of our novice pilots went for the least expensive engines, and off the shelf fuels.

After seeing several of these engines ruined, I decided to test the oil content of various fuels. Among them Morgan, Byron, Red Max, Sig, and Fox. Many of these identified the lube content correctly, but Morgan had no such information available. There were other brands I can't recall, as I solicited club members for fuel samples from freshly opened jugs only. Results were published in my newsletter, to share with club members.

My method was to pull several ounces of fresh fuel with a large graduated medical syringe, and pour three measured samples of each fuel into the cups of an old muffin pan. The wife was pissed when she found out!  ;D

The pans were put in my well ventilated garage for about a week, and then the remaining oil drawn back into the syringe and the quantity recorded.

I don't remember the exact numbers anymore, but was appalled at the low oil content in Morgan fuels! If I recall correctly, it was closer to 12 percent than 14, and in my opinion it's suitable only for modern ball bearing engines!

Fox, and SIG fuels were exactly as advertised on the jug, and kind of validated my test method, and reinforced my trust in them.

I've always routinely added SIG Castor oil to my fuels, to insure that the oil content is at least 20 percent for modern engines with ball bearings, and about 22 percent for ringed engines with ball bearings.

For our old iron piston engines, I'd use no less than 25 percent mostly Castor fuel, which would mean adding a bunch of Castor to Morgan fuel.

Fox and SIG make good fuels, and I've heard from my local C/L club members that PowerMaster is very good. You might call a few shops to see what they carry, but I would only buy fuel with the ingredients clearly marked on the container.

After testing, I was very careful to check the fuel brought to the field by new pilots, and if there was any doubt about proper lube, we used my fuel instead. No more fried engines, at least while I was still instructing.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Online Brett Buck

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2009, 12:40:16 AM »
Yeah, lots of things are COMMONLY known, and are not true.  And as I have said, I have heard that about just about every fuel, from people who fly a different fuel.  So if ALL the reports are true, ALL fuel manufacturers do that.  Oops, I don't think I have ever heard anyone acuse SIG of this. :)

Has anyone TESTED the various brands of fuel?

    Very extensively. I've done a bunch, and I know Randy Smith has done a lot more. I am sure everyone has gone through fuel testing on some level at some point. BTW, the evaporation test takes too long - you need to boil it off.

     My results were that, for the most part, the fuel manufacturers were telling the truth on the total oil content. Byron "16%" oil fuel had about 15.xx % oil by volume, Byron "20%" oil fuel had 19.xx or so%, SIG had about 19%, etc. Omega has about 15%, Cool Power has about 13-14%.

    No matter what R/C geniuses (aka sport fliers with ~6 months of experience) tell you, for stunt flying I would be hesitant to go below about 18% unless you really know what you are doing and are willing to pay the potential price. For slug-piston engines, I wouldn't use any less than 25% straight castor, and more certainly doesn't hurt anything. For ringed engines I would use 18-22% castor/synthetic blends. Not all castor - you need at least some synthetic, and I think at least some castor.

    For AAB/ABC engines I have no particular problem with the idea of running straight synthetic, and will admit to using as little as 16% on super-high-quality AAC engines. Right now, I run Powermaster 18% oil fuel (in either 10 or 15% nitro) which has a 75/25 synthetic/castor blend. Regular SIG Champion is about the same +-. I think, however, that there is a definite possibility of varnishing that messes up the fit. Richard Oliver has in the past suggested that the low-viscosity helicopter oil is the way to go, but there appears to have been some recent problems with some sort of deposition with that. I have in the past run YS 20/20 in AAC 2-strokes with excellent results, and I plan on running it occasionally to clean the varnish.

   Oil drag and varnishing is a very real problem and power-sucker on the very tightly-fit AAC motors, and I think the oil drag tends to make the 4-2 breaks or other power shifts much more sluggish - I don't really understand why. Maybe the oil drag in the front end does it, I think that the front end needs to run pretty free. It's probably even worse in our low-output, cold, stunt settings.

     As far as brands go, I like and have had excellent results from SIG, Powermaster, and the much-maligned Byron "Classic". The only thing that I have found wrong with Byron is that the performance is weak for a particular stated nitro content. 10% SIG is stronger than 15% Byron. If you choose sufficient nitro for the desired performance, I have found Byron to run noticeably smoother than the others, with a very "smooooth" power transitions. And in many cases, Byron would solve the "flameout" issue when no other fuel would. SIG tends to be noticably stronger for a stated nitro content, and Powermaster is somewhere in the middle, but not a lot different from SIG.  SIG, in some engines (we noticed it first in the PA61, but only particular examples, not all of them) tends to form plug "taters" that make the plugs last as little as 30-40 flights. I can only speculate as to the cause, but it sure looks like some sort of polymer and the best guess is that is has something to do with the anti-foaming agent. My buddies and I switched to Powermaster and now it doesn't happen to any significant degree. If I couldn't get Powermaster for some reason, I wouldn't hesitate to switch back to SIG and wouldn't worry about it.

     Cool Power, Omega? If you add a lot of oil and/or  don't care much about the long-term durability, you sure aren't going to have any oil-drag problems. They have a bad reputation in stunt for a very good reason. I have had sporadic problems with SIG and Powermaster, but out of the dozens of cases of fuel I have run - through only maybe 4 individual engines - they were few and far between. Cool Power and Omega are pretty notorious - if that's all you can get, use Omega and add about 8 oz of castor per gallon, and cross your fingers.

    I also had excellent results with Red Max back in the late-80s/Early 90s. Along about 1995, they were responsible for starting the "castor oil is bad" rumor. Since this was about the same time as the "1995 SIG Disaster NATs", where some clearly bad fuel from SIG wrecked more than a few stunt engines, it actually seemed true. However, SIG quickly diagnosed and corrected the problem, and Red Max went off on a tangent telling everyone that it is not possible to get "good" castor any more for anyone, so use our "Mystery Super Oil" instead, it works great in go-karts. After going round and round, including several of us calling them directly and talking to their "oil experts" I came to find that the only problem appeared to be that *they* managed to buy a bad batch of castor (which contained, among other things, xylene, which caused some sort of precipitate to form). Well, that wasn't the only problem, they also knew for certain that we (C/L pilots) were really not too bright and should go talk to some R/C guys, since they were so advanced. I hear then even did that with a certain 5-time National Champion. After that, I simply wouldn't do business with them any more. The same story appeared on their websites until very recently, with a variety of ever-more-creative excuses for their castor and how great their magic oil was,  when AOL shut down the free hosting. Mercifully, their new website contains none of this garbage, but they certainly aren't getting any of my hard-earned money. The whole story is on SSW in several different versions.

There seems to be more arguments, and heated arguments, over oil and oil content than anything. After going round and round, and running more fuel that most ever will, I just get the quality fuels from reputable manufacturers, and don't really think about it any more. Compared to everything else, the fuel is dirt cheap even with hazmat shipping. I use, at most, maybe 10 gallons a year at this point, maybe a total of about $250. I spent much more than that just for a hotel for the SWR a few weeks ago. Fuel costs are in the noise compared to everything else, don't try to save a few dollars a gallon.

      Brett

p.s. this is pretty much all you ever need to know about the topic, and might save you a lot of pain:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=4037.0

    Randy knows as much about the topic as anyone, take advantage of his hard-earned knowledge.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 01:23:19 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline George

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2009, 08:46:21 PM »
Brett,

Thanks for the reference to Randy's thread. It was VERY informative.

Think I'll try some mixed lube on a few engines that I had relegated to all-castor.

George

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2009, 06:47:30 AM »
Dwayne
Where do you get your castor from?
Raby

Well I am in the motorcycle business adn I buy Blenzol castor oil for racing motorcycles. Great stuff.
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Offline Pinecone

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Re: FUEL TYPE
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2009, 07:49:12 PM »
BTW, RC heli guys run a LOT more oil than the plank guys.  A 50 heli engine is running high power at around 17,000 RPM

Most heli fuels are at least 18% oil and many up to 22% oil.

And I still haven't seen a post where a particular fuel was way off on oil content.  The closest was that Cool Power has low oil, but the poster did not have the stated oil contect.  Although the current blands are a minimum of 17% oil.

When I get back I will test some, as I have 30% and 15% Heli (although 155 heli is the same as 15% plank), 15% Omega and 15 Omega 4 stoke (50/50 syn/castor).

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