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Author Topic: Fuel Tanks  (Read 1700 times)

Offline rich gorrill

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Fuel Tanks
« on: May 30, 2023, 08:21:49 AM »
I normally buy my fuel tanks from RSM Dist. Went on the web site yesterday and it listed all tanks out of stock. Not knocking Brodaks but i've had trouble with their tanks in the past. I'm looking for a 5 oz. uniflow all tubes forward wide wedge for a Vector 40. Who knows where I can get one. I remember seeing tanks from GSM i think. Any help will be appreciated.

Rich

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2023, 08:33:52 AM »
All my tanks are from Brodak. Various designs. Never had any issues.

Also, if you call them, they can custom modify a design to suit your particular needs.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2023, 09:13:08 AM »
  Build one.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2023, 01:17:52 PM »
Making your own tank might be a good option.  Lately, I have had to remove the backplate of two tanks due to crud inside.  I do not know who is making the Brodak metal tanks but it appears that someone is using corrosive flux.  The inside of those two tanks was rusted and clogging the lines.

Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2023, 01:26:54 PM »
Went squishy Sullivan plastic. I will never go back to metal.
Doug Moisuk
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2023, 01:35:31 PM »
There are advantages to the plastic tanks.  But, I have had the necks split and the rubber stopper leak as well.

Metal or plastic, both work, both can have problems.

If you prefer a metal tank, no matter what the source, I would take the backplate off and have a look inside.  On one of the tanks I had rust issues with, the uniflow line was not soldered to the pick up line.  I wonder how many others I have are like that and I have not looked inside to find out.

When I got metal tanks years ago, I think they were from GRW.  Is that name familiar to anyone?  I heard they went out of business.  I do not remember having any issues with those tanks.  Now, every metal tank I get is suspect.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2023, 02:09:11 PM »
Making your own tank might be a good option.  Lately, I have had to remove the backplate of two tanks due to crud inside.  I do not know who is making the Brodak metal tanks but it appears that someone is using corrosive flux.  The inside of those two tanks was rusted and clogging the lines.

    Any good flux will be corrosive. A lot of it is in how they use it. I think they plunk the ends in a tub of flux, slap the ends on and solder away. That traps some flux inside, and then it causes the big rust deposits over a pretty short amount of time if the tank is not flushed out, and I don't think they do. The end caps should be applied, then a minimal amount of flux brushed around the joint, then soldered. The flux works it's way into the seam, and very little to non gets inside. It should still be flushed. It's all done by unskilled labor for the most part I think to keep costs down. I usually advise people to take a new tank, and tap it with a piece of soft wood or a plastic screw driver handle, to see if anything breaks loose. You will hear it rattling around. Then you have the option of sending it back or you know now for sure you need to clean it.
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2023, 02:22:06 PM »
A friend of mine recommended a flux called "Nokorode."  I found it at Lowe's.  If there is any corrosive nature to this flux, it is minimal compared to others.

I doubt if any of the metal tanks are being flushed out after assembly to neutralize any corrosive leftovers.

I guess from now on, I will have to open the tank and see for myself before taking any chances with clogged fuel lines.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2023, 02:42:51 PM »
Hello Been building a small model for my wife called the Reaction and glued in an old  "new" perfect tank. Went to test it and found the brass feed tube was blocked with green corrosion , should have tested it before gluing it in. All my old Brodak tanks have been repaired at some point. I prefer a plastic tank wherever possible.
Regards Gerald

Offline Miotch

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2023, 02:55:34 PM »
I would be shocked if any of the metal tanks I've bought were ever flushed.  I'm often wrong, but I would be shocked.  I actually put the old metal Perfect tank I'm planning to use on the engine test stand this weekend to see if there were any problems.  And that is probably the first time I've ever actually tested a fuel tank before I installed it on a plane.  I can't tell you how many times I've had to replace a new tank after it was already installed in a plane (a lot).  Yet this is the first time I remember actually testing a tank.  It baffles me why I never did that before.

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2023, 03:04:34 PM »
Hello Been building a small model for my wife called the Reaction and glued in an old  "new" perfect tank. Went to test it and found the brass feed tube was blocked with green corrosion , should have tested it before gluing it in. All my old Brodak tanks have been repaired at some point. I prefer a plastic tank wherever possible.
Regards Gerald

All the Brodak metal tanks came w/ copper tubing (not brass). The copper won't corrode compared to brass as I understand it.

I also have a few Sullivan and Dubro plastic tanks and I put them together w/ copper tubing. I also used a larger diameter fuel suction tube and drilled out the clunk to enhance fuel draw. The larger diameter is a really good idea especially if the plastic tank is used on a 4-stroke engine.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 05:27:03 PM by Colin McRae »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2023, 05:06:38 PM »
A friend of mine recommended a flux called "Nokorode."  I found it at Lowe's.  If there is any corrosive nature to this flux, it is minimal compared to others.

I doubt if any of the metal tanks are being flushed out after assembly to neutralize any corrosive leftovers.

I guess from now on, I will have to open the tank and see for myself before taking any chances with clogged fuel lines.

   The absolute best that I have found is Ruby Fluid. Comes in paste and liquid. It can be hard to find, but when you do, buy two cans and you are fixed for life! My experience with Nokrode is in typical plumbing, and while it works,  even in that i find it pretty "dirty". When using Ruby Fluid, all it takes is a barely perceptible amount brushed on. The rest is up to a properly heated ion with a proper tip. A properly prepped joint with everything else correct should just take seconds, and the solder should flow along the joint. have a nice, tight joint with NO gaps.

    Copper tube will still corrode with what we have to use for fuel these days, just not as fast. If it's an old , nit new Perfect tank, you can just use it but flush it with fuel or white vinegar first, and then change the tubes later, or just change them right away to get it over with.

     Plastic tanks are not immune to problems from today's fuel. It will attack the stopper, no matter what the material, and will also get at the tubing, either brass or copper. The big thing with plastic tanks is to NOT over tighten the screw in the stopper, just enough to seal, and you can probably still move it a bit.

  I use them both, depending on "things".  I still think a well built metal tank will outlast a plastic tank, though.

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Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2023, 06:01:15 PM »
   The absolute best that I have found is Ruby Fluid. Comes in paste and liquid. It can be hard to find, but when you do, buy two cans and you are fixed for life! My experience with Nokrode is in typical plumbing, and while it works,  even in that i find it pretty "dirty". When using Ruby Fluid, all it takes is a barely perceptible amount brushed on. The rest is up to a properly heated ion with a proper tip. A properly prepped joint with everything else correct should just take seconds, and the solder should flow along the joint. have a nice, tight joint with NO gaps.

    Copper tube will still corrode with what we have to use for fuel these days, just not as fast. If it's an old , nit new Perfect tank, you can just use it but flush it with fuel or white vinegar first, and then change the tubes later, or just change them right away to get it over with.

     Plastic tanks are not immune to problems from today's fuel. It will attack the stopper, no matter what the material, and will also get at the tubing, either brass or copper. The big thing with plastic tanks is to NOT over tighten the screw in the stopper, just enough to seal, and you can probably still move it a bit.

  I use them both, depending on "things".  I still think a well built metal tank will outlast a plastic tank, though.

    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Thanks, Dan, for letting me know that the copper tubing will still corrode, but it is superior to brass in that regard and will last longer.

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2023, 01:58:51 PM »
while u have the back off be sure to check that all tubes are where they belong .i have found the una flow tubes to be all over the place RAD
rad racer

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2023, 02:37:04 PM »
Like Gerald Wimmer, all my recent models have plastic clunk tanks and I insure that they actually clunk. This means being careful about the angle you store it in. Run line filters on metal tanks and keep em clean. Any tanks you build, block all pipes and pressure test in a tin mug or small pot of boiling water. If the soilder looks OK it aint till it's put under pressure. When finished soldering up holes, boil the tank in water for 5 mins then flush with meths , fuel then light oil and leave in the sun for as long as possible on the window sill or whatever till it is completely dried out. Assume tank damage after any unscheduled heavy landing or self dismantling LL~

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2023, 06:21:13 AM »
I agree with Dan: learn to make your own tanks.  This first involves learning to solder.  I don'tknow why, but it isn't easy for me.  Perhaps because I only solder occasionally - when I make a new tank.  But I manage to get it done.  One thing helpful is that you can buy a tank "kit" from Brodaks.

There are too many bad commercial tanks out there and you should refuse to chance your new model on a bad tank.  You have too much time and effort invested to risk it.

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2023, 07:42:53 AM »
Long ago I learned to use only rosin core electrical solder for tanks.  Plenty strong for this job and no other flux is required-so no corrosion.  NEVER use any silver bearing solder here because it requires nasty flux.  The electrical solder is also lower temp so it solders easily and won't leave 'cold' joints that are prone to fail due to poor adhesion.  Some tanks I built years ago I reuse over and again in new airplanes.

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2023, 08:11:21 AM »
Long ago I learned to use only rosin core electrical solder for tanks.  Plenty strong for this job and no other flux is required-so no corrosion.  NEVER use any silver bearing solder here because it requires nasty flux.  The electrical solder is also lower temp so it solders easily and won't leave 'cold' joints that are prone to fail due to poor adhesion.  Some tanks I built years ago I reuse over and again in new airplanes.

Dave

    Just to add to what Dave mentions, soldering is one function where "size matter" !! All you really need to keep on hand for a pretty high percentage of the work you will do is .030" or 1/32" rosin core solder. The single most important thing to getting nice, clean , and easily done solder joints is the parts fit up with each other. No gaps anywhere. There should be nice, flat, metal to metal contact and when heated solder will flow by capillary action and follow any heat. . Like any skill, it takes practice. There are many tank designs out there and it's easy to pick a favorite that has nice, straight lines to make forming the parts easier. Jim Lee offers a nice little bending jig that is very desirable also. I have several pair of duck billed pliers, and even use the square jaws of a pair of lineman's pliers from time to time on small stuff. Al Rabe had articles and probably some videos of how he made mock ups of his custom tanks using manila folder card stock. Once happy with shape and how things fit, use the card stock parts to lay out the tin parts. The rest if just practice.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2023, 10:33:50 AM »
I did the same thing Al did making a construction paper layout of the tank then folding it till I had the perfect fit - almost.  I learned that you had to allow for the thickness of the seams on the top and sides.  I also learned not to make the tabs too small and to drill all of the holes for the tubing before folding it.  Another thing I learned was to solder the feed and uniflow tubes to the tank before soldering the end plate and to make sure they didn't move after bending the end cap into place and soldering.  Make double sure those nasty corner joints were filled.  Next the fill tube(s).  Cut to size and soldered using a small brass washer on the outside.  Now fill it up with the nasty solvent of your choice and let it sit a bit.  Fix the leaks that you swear were not your fault.  Slide the front plate over the intake and uniflow tubes and solder it in place (holes it the corners?).  Washers on the tubes solder and you are done.  Put some dish soap in all of the joints and pressure check.  No bubbles, rinse and submerge in water.  No bubbles - you are done. 

Plan "B", work in a sheet metal fabrication shop and make some dies.

Plan "C", Go Electric and trade this nasty job for a new set of nasty jobs.

Ken

Forgive my diverting from the subject of building to one of design.  I remember watching a video of a flight where the little camera was focused on the clunk tank.  As the pilot went through the pattern the fuel was never where I thought it should be.  It seems to me that the fuel pickup should be at the furthest point outboard since centrifugal force appeared to be the only one in play at all times.  Shouldn't the rear outboard corner of the tank be more "out" than the front?   Or, perhaps even better, angle the tank compartment?

Sorry  - Ken
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 11:06:19 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2023, 10:55:25 AM »
Long ago I learned to use only rosin core electrical solder for tanks.  Plenty strong for this job and no other flux is required-so no corrosion.  NEVER use any silver bearing solder here because it requires nasty flux. 

  Actually, there is nothing about StaBrite or other 4% silver-bearing solders that requires a very strong flux. That's just what StaBrite comes with - to make it so you can solder stainless and other hard-to-solder materials. Kester does, or used to, have a rosin-core version that worked just like electronic solder aside from the slightly higher temperature and the wide plastic region.

   But your primary point is right - good old 60/40 or 63/37 rosin-core electronics solder works plenty well enough if you use good technique - primarily, making sure it gets hot enough to flow out properly. I usually use 60/40, which is a little trickier to use and has the possibility of cold solders, but 63/37 is also fine and can't easily have a cold solder (since it has little or no plastic region). Getting the right diameter for the job makes it easier. I use .040" 64/40 for tanks, 1/16" would work, .025 is too small

   Brett

     

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2023, 12:54:48 PM »
I strongly urge you to pressure test your tanks in boiling water.It it don't leak under those extreme conditions, it ain't gonna leak under normal operations.Many times I have built or tested a tank and when first dunked in water do not leak, but when left for a few seconds the temp and pressure rises - if the water is just fallen off boiling and -Bingo - bubbles! If you are having wobbly engine runs, or building the tank to be enclosed in a model, I challenge you to challenge your tanks. Be prepared to be surprised!

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2023, 02:36:17 PM »
When I got metal tanks years ago, I think they were from GRW.  Is that name familiar to anyone?  I heard they went out of business.  I do not remember having any issues with those tanks.  Now, every metal tank I get is suspect.

Not sure that's exactly correct (GRW), but Eric Rule (RSM) bought them when they went Tango Utah. If RSM says they're out of stock, then Brodak is your tin tank source by default. I'd be leery and pop the back off to check, 100%.

I've used both tin and plastic. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Tin will get you more capacity in less space, generally, and will also give you the possibility of "cutoff loops" to kill the engine when you're near the end of the flight. Plastic tanks are cheap, easy to carry a spare tank to swap in when needed, and the clunk setup works pretty well, but does prevent "cutoff loops" from working. 
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2023, 02:57:20 PM »
Not sure that's exactly correct (GRW), but Eric Rule (RSM) bought them when they went Tango Utah. If RSM says they're out of stock, then Brodak is your tin tank source by default. I'd be leery and pop the back off to check, 100%.

   Or, first fill it with EvapoRust and leave it for a few days in different positions. Every Brodak tank I have ever taken apart, or seen the inside, had massive rust around both end caps. They seemed to be dipping the tank body in a puddle of flux, then soldering it.  In many cases, the tubes were not soldered to the inside of the tank, by design, apparently.

      Brett

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2023, 08:25:20 PM »


       Too lazy to re-plumb a new/old Perfect tank with copper tubing, I paid the price. Meant to be a temporary tank to test a profile for tip weight, balance etc., it didn't work. The picture of the pickup end of the brass feed tube shows why. And, the end was 'flapping in the breeze', not attached. I regularly open my metal tanks for inspection and cleaning.

       Ara

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2023, 09:08:45 PM »

       Too lazy to re-plumb a new/old Perfect tank with copper tubing, I paid the price. Meant to be a temporary tank to test a profile for tip weight, balance etc., it didn't work. The picture of the pickup end of the brass feed tube shows why. And, the end was 'flapping in the breeze', not attached. I regularly open my metal tanks for inspection and cleaning.

       Ara

  Yes, that's what it does!

     Brett

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2023, 01:30:17 PM »
Steve ,I'm busting to know what a cutoff loop is,! ??? Explaination, picture or photo please if possible. #^
Many tanks in advance
John Carrodus

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2023, 01:41:16 PM »
Quote
I'm busting to know what a cutoff loop is,!

You've flown your pattern and now you're counting laps and realize that you're gonna over-run.  So you do a nice round loop and immediately at the end of the first loop do an extremely tight loop.  Engine immediately dies.  You land with seconds to spare while the crowd is cheering!  Yes!  You got your pattern points!  Woo-hoo!!

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2023, 08:14:12 PM »

Steve ,I'm busting to know what a cutoff loop is,!
John Carrodus
[/quote]

      John,

         I remember Al Rabe describing a cut off loop where he does a tight loop at the end of the pattern to stop the flow of fuel to the engine. You can see him do it in his Snaggletooth flight video. Did he invent an internal tank configuration for that to happen?
 
         I've never seen a diagram of how the tank is set up. Is it a function of how much fuel is left? I try it when I'm headed for an overrun with my uniflow tanks with no results except for the aforementioned overun. Nor do I see it happen during the three loops some flyers execute at the end of the pattern to unwind their lines prior to landing.

     Ara

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2023, 08:33:17 PM »
Steve ,I'm busting to know what a cutoff loop is,!
John Carrodus


      John,

         I remember Al Rabe describing a cut off loop where he does a tight loop at the end of the pattern to stop the flow of fuel to the engine. You can see him do it in his Snaggletooth flight video. Did he invent an internal tank configuration for that to happen?
 
         I've never seen a diagram of how the tank is set up. Is it a function of how much fuel is left? I try it when I'm headed for an overrun with my uniflow tanks with no results except for the aforementioned overun. Nor do I see it happen during the three loops some flyers execute at the end of the pattern to unwind their lines prior to landing.

     Ara

   It takes nothing special inside the tank, a traditional T21 style tank will easily cut off as described. In fact, the problem with the T21 is that it does is far too easily, meaning you have to run excess fuel just to keep it from quitting the 4-leaf. The mechanism is simple, an inside loop when the tank is nearly empty moves the fuel forward and to the bottom of the tank, and uncovers the fuel pickup. It usually takes an *inside* loop, because the inside loop also yaws the nose out, making it even more prone to sloshing forward. If you are short on fuel, the same effect will happen in the first loop of the clover. If you get through the first loop without it quitting you can almost always count on it continuing to run through the rest of the maneuver, because outside turns yaw the nose in, and caused the fuel to stay closer to the back of the tank.

   You do not need to do two loops unless you are in trouble, and doing a tight loop is not usually as good as a large one (because it takes less time and might be able to pick up again after its over).

      My normal flight, I finish the pattern, fly around level until I hear the first hint of a bubble getting ingested, the fly a high overhead loop and it will go about 1/2 lap dead lean and then quit. The advantage to the high overhead loop is that it allows you to dive out of the loop in the direction you want to land on the right side of the circle.

   If I just flying around level waiting for it to run out, it will go lean for about 20 feet and quit with nearly no warning, and at any relationship to the wind (since I have a lot of taper in the tank), it I might not have enough speed to get it around to the proper touchdown point.

   Watch expert at some contest, those troglodytes such as myself who still fly IC almost always do something to cut it off at a desirable point in the circle.

      Brett

p.s. I really liked Al Rabe, but, he certainly DID NOT invent it, it predated him by a lot, I have people tell me it was being done in the early 50s

     

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2023, 11:23:23 PM »
One of the drawbacks of most electric timers is that you cannot predict where the motor will go into it's shutdown cycle.  You know when it starts but you cannot place it.  I have read that some have tried to make it possible for the timer to detect a loop after a set time.  The problem with that is it really eliminates your ability to go around if you get a sudden wind shift only to have it cutoff in the clover.   I relied on the kill loop and carried enough fuel to give me the luxury of not having to sweat the clover. 

Ken   
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2023, 11:40:35 PM »
where can i get Evaporust
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2023, 11:42:35 PM »
where can i get Evaporust

  Hardware or auto parts stores. Note that it is not an acid or caustic, it is a chelating agent, and can be left in indefinitely with no damage. It can be reused several times at least.

      Brett

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2023, 06:25:10 AM »
I've always made my own tanks from .008" tinplate - OK for the larger sizes, but fiddly for the little ones I need for 1/2A models, especially now I'm ancient and lacking in dexterity/eyesight.  Can anyone see any disadvantages in using .008 copper?  It's softer and easier to manipulate, and of course very easy to solder.  All input gratefully received.
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fuel Tanks
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2023, 07:30:52 AM »
I've always made my own tanks from .008" tinplate - OK for the larger sizes, but fiddly for the little ones I need for 1/2A models, especially now I'm ancient and lacking in dexterity/eyesight.  Can anyone see any disadvantages in using .008 copper?  It's softer and easier to manipulate, and of course very easy to solder.  All input gratefully received.
I would think corrosion on the inside would be an issue over time.  Maybe the oil in the fuel would prevent it.  I always used old fuel cans.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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