Author Topic: Jester - Kit or plans? (Read 2966 times)

Bruce Perry · « **on:** September 16, 2011, 05:11:21 PM »

Hi,

I have recently been asked to kit my Jester. I have also been asked to publish it. So what would have the most interest?

The Plane as designed has a foam wing, fuse gear (carbon Rush product), very short nose moment and a long tail. This is Germain as it was designed for the PA 75. Which is temporarily unavailable. I have flown the models on PA 65 with lead to reach the weight of the 75. The plane is a also a take apart design to facilitate shipping, this is not a required element in a successful build. Issues for me are, I don't want to change the wing construction to built up for the kit. I have and issue endorsing the model if I haven't built it the way the kit is produced. Secondly, the landing Gear is the Humpty carbon Gear from Howard Rush. I don't know if Howard is producing these still or what the current price is. Suffice to say, they are Rolls Royce quality... Thirdly, the entire bottom block is molded and the turtle deck. Molding forms would need to be provided.

So if Jester is kitted it will require foam wings and carbon gear launching the kit price to the OMG range.

The alternative is a plan, currently the plan is in CAD form and there are no building notes to speak of, an article would make for clarity on the odd sections. Other than the aforementioned traits, it is a fairly straight forward model. Certainly not for the first effort in scratch building maybe, but it is pretty simple.

I dunno guys, the kit manufacturer is of the highest quality but he really wants to do the built up wing and no landing gear or put the gear in the wing. If I go just plans there may be less of a chance the plane will get built.

All this is moot if nobody is interested. I'll attach a picture too.

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:22:04 PM »

the picture....

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:28:39 PM »

Another

John Miller · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:37:53 PM »

Hi Bruce, Your Jester is a beautiful flying design, and deserves to be available to the rest of us..

If you simply publish the design it will also require that the call outs be placed on the drawing. Not a small task, but usually easily doable. You will also have to put together some sort of assembly guide, depending on who publishes it.

Kitting the design, based on who does the kitting, often requires a change to a built up wing due to the demands of cutting, and shipping the wing cores. It's possible to make an extremely accurate built up wing, so I wouldn't let the idea turn you off on going that route. Built up wings usually finish up an Oz or so lighter, which is also a plus. Most kit makers will put together a construction manual. So, guess which way I'm leaning towards?

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:47:18 PM »

I lean toward plans. Most hard corps stunt fliers are fully capable of building from plans, cores and a pile of wood. They don't really need the kit version and probably would not care for compromises made for production reasons. Since 98% of kits just sit on shelves, I don't think you are somehow "reducing" the potential population of Jesters if you only have plans vs a kit. The people who want one will build one, no matter what.

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:57:33 PM »

Good comments.

The foam wing panels with wood and LE & TE shaped were both under 4 oz. The finishing simplicity was the main attraction. I would provide very detailed "building notes". Good comment there too. I have some pics of the builds too. I am doing a partial kit for a friend now. He is a very experienced builder and I'm confident that he can manage the build with the current plans. I'm supplying sheeted wings and molded parts. We're trading some cool stuff so no price has been set. Steve, you're right the guys that this airplane could appeal to are likely not looking for a kit....

Keep the comments coming thanks in advance

B

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2011, 08:26:01 PM »

Hi Bruce. Love the design. I actually would go ahead and try for a foam wing kit. There are not too many currently available and, like you, I enjoy the ease of finishing a sheeted wing provides. The landing gear issue could be figured out by maybe providing wire wing gear in the kit but show the option for the carbon fuse gear on the plan. To offset costs, consider hollowed blocks instead of the molded top and bottom fuse. Yes, it would still be an expensive kit, but I think those that bought one would actually build it. I would.

James Mills · « **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2011, 08:47:08 PM »

Bruce,

I saw your yellow and purple plane 2 years ago at the Nats, still one of my favorite planes. As an option to the carbon fuse gear how about wing mounted gear instead? Could help if the carbon gear isn't available or just help with the cost.

James

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #8 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:21:13 PM »

Regarding the molded blocks, my intention was to include the formers and bases so the foam bucks could be sanded with simple hand tools. It also leaves the modeler with forms that are reusable on future projects. The base is simply the top view of the fuse and the formers are easily cut from plywood (laser). Could even follow the same procedure as was featured in the Billy video "how to mold balsa". In that they used a keel that matched the changes in angles of the fuse side. Which is what I did for the bottom block.

It really gets down to the gear, it's possible to have some aluminum ones made. Not as light but certainly less money. Or perhaps there's the carbon Option?

I like that idea.

So with the molding bucks included. Either cut by manufacturer or sanded by the modeler and assembled on a ply keel. Plus dural gear with carbon option, which is easily changed out later..... That could work.

keep it coming! Thanks guys..

B

john e. holliday · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:34:15 AM »

Myself being I have way too many kits now, would more likely like a good article write up with a set of plans. Go look at what Billy Werwage did with his P-47 design. I also like reading how you guys do certain things in constructing a winning airplane.

PerttiMe · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2011, 08:58:11 AM »

What about short kits?
Is anyone already set up to cut the wing cores?
Could planking work instead of the molded blocks? Some may be more comfortable with that.

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2011, 02:37:45 PM »

There will be an article to go with the plans regardless of whether a kit follows or not. There are lots of little "things" that would need some 'splaining. I cut the wings and have all the components necessary to cut more. I used the feather cut system and I really like it. I'd use it for the molded blocks foam too I guess. I do like the idea of a short kit though. I'm sure there are lots of great balsa stacks around the stunt world. This would be a great way to use up some of the good wood.

I have component weights at various levels of completion so the builder would have a target weight.

I don't think planking would be a reasonable alternative as most of the structure doesn't have formers. (cowl to pipe tunnel). The molded balsa is really no big deal once you do it. It's very simple and very effective. Plus saves lots of Loot in balsa. Two 1/16 sheets can do the bottom block to perfection. Plus the inside is nicely shaped too. The need for replacement components exists, I had a new cowl made up in a day following some damage to an airplane with a molded cowl.

So far, I like the idea of foam wings, detailed plans and article, molds for blocks, and dural gear. The wood and controls can be supplied by the builder. Hmmmm well that's an interesting Kit. Could be fairly inexpensive too.

Okay if this is offered anybody keen to have one? The article will take some writing.....

Great comments so far guys! Thanks

B

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:05:52 PM »

Bruce...If I remember correctly, you cut the outside of the wing core, vacuum bag the skins on, then cut the inside to minimum wall thicknesses? The typical foam core kit just isn't going to give the same result, so I'd vote for a stick & rib structure. Full skinning would always be an option, if folks want that, and have the light wood. Being able to buy plans, ribs and bucks for the molded stuff would be a great scheme. Maybe with an optional hardware package to include LG, control system and canopy?

The carbon LG with the hoop might be do-able from Mejzlik via Randy Aero, or maybe Steve Wilk would make them?

I do love the looks of the Jester, but frankly, I'd prefer a smaller plane, like 640 sq. in....something that would work for the .40VF to PA .75. More power choices would make for a bigger market.

Steve

Richard Walbridge · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:23:02 PM »

Bruce,
As a now experienced scratch builder of two high-end preforming planes (Windy's Spitfire and now Phil's Diva) I would like to see published plans for the Jester and aquire a set myself! Since I'm a fanatic of detail, I would want to build the plane EXACTLY the way the designer has built it; using all the parts the designer has done. (which is what I did with the Diva) I'm sure you've asked yourself who is your target audience should a kit be created The struggling Intermediate flyer? The up-and-coming-Advanced-almost-Expert flyer? or the veteran super hot-shot Expert flyer? Just MHO...

Rich Walbridge
Central Valley Stunt Mafia
"It's Nothing Personal...Strictly Stunt"

Matt Colan · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2011, 07:06:05 PM »

After building for a little while, and using only about half the wood in my thundergazer, and with how cool the Jester looks, I would either opt for an article and plans, or a short kit, including formers and the foam wing.

Maybe publish the article and plans in Stunt News?

BYU · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2011, 09:14:02 PM »

What about a short kit, with everything except the cores and landing gear?

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2011, 10:38:39 PM »

Steve, et al.

More good comments! Re: cores: I have an idea of how to get the cores as light without having to install the skins first. I would test the method first of course. The model without the take apart system would be a conventional weight and should be happy with smaller engines. Randy's PA's are of course more than capable in virtually any size. The 75 suits my personality and also delivers the goods.

Steve, I really like the idea of a menu style of kitting. The buyer can order whatever they like. Be it the full meal deal or simply plans. Perfect solution! There is no written rule that every kit need be exactly the same content. It could range from sheeted wings to bare cores. Wow. and Hmmmmmmm......

Rich, Yes the market. That was the very first thing I considered. If I was designing for mass appeal and consumption, the model wouldn't be Jester. But as a consumer I personally wouldn't want a dumbed down version. I'm like you, I want it exactly the way the prototype was. There are too many concessions made for the sake of kit production. This is especially true now with elaborate builds and exotic materials. Classic airplanes are more easily provided and I'd guess that's why we see that market segment well supplied.

There are some excellent kits for serious PA use in the market. I guess this could be another. The market would be advanced and expert pilots. Especially with the menu style Kit production.

Good, Lots more to think about.

thanks guys

B

Larry Cunningham · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2011, 07:45:33 AM »

Bruce,

I really like this design, and in particular your paint scheme is nothing short of awesome.

Great work.

L.

"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why so few engage in it." -Henry Ford

Allan Perret · « **Reply #18 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:13:58 AM »

I would buy a set of plans for sure, and I like the idea of a short kit with either type of wing construction.

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #19 on:** September 18, 2011, 09:41:27 AM »

Bruce just wanted to say that the design is absolutely aesthetically pleasing and the paint /graphics are so unique and beautiful. Ones response on seeing it is, "I gotta have it!!!!!", at least that's my response to it! I for one would like the plans, but have them show a conventional built-up wing or offer plans and a foam wing. Thanks for even thinking about offering such a fine design to us admirers.
Doug P

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2011, 11:08:19 AM »

OK, we started last night. First will be finish the plans and write the building package. Then we'll see where to publish or Kit. Thanks to all for the great feedback. I am very flattered with the interest and comments.

Bruce

john e. holliday · « **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2011, 05:45:02 AM »

I have seen plans in the past that showed both built up and foam core wings.

James Mills · « **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:58:37 PM »

If the root and tip rib are on the plans you can make up a set of ribs for a built up. Or order a lost foam jig from Bob, better choice.

James

proparc · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2011, 08:24:15 PM »

Quote from: Bruce Perry on September 16, 2011, 05:11:21 PM

Hi,

I dunno guys, the kit manufacturer is of the highest quality but he really wants to do the built up wing and no landing gear or put the gear in the wing.

Sounds like a little bit too much democracy up there in Canada. You do what he tells you to or else!!!

Bruce Perry · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2011, 09:48:39 PM »

Quote from: proparc on September 23, 2011, 08:24:15 PM

Sounds like a little bit too much democracy up there in Canada. You do what he tells you to or else!!!
[/quote

Hahahahaha, Of all the things I'm good at that isn't one of them......