FREESTYLE-IMPROV STUNT?

[Shultzie]

Thimkin' back over the years...I have always thought that an interesting event for control line would be a
FREESTYLE EVENT where a stunt grunter could display his or her's WILD SIDE FLYING STYLE N' PROFILIN' talent?
Although a regular designed and built stunter would be acceptable...even betta' yet would be a stunter that was clearly designed with radical stuff in mind such as tail slides...lame-aldo-shalommkavolks-un doooo da day allyoooops stuff?

Any ideas or thoughts along these control lines for the "SHOWIN OFF WHATCHEW' CUN' DO BUNCH for a fun event at the end of a contest ?

[Bill Gruby]

Shultzie;

  That's what I do all the time, I can fly the whole pattern, I just don't do it in any kind of order.    Sometimes I will combine stunts to come up with somethin else. Doesn't everybody fly that way?    I don't like doin it the same way all the tiime. 

  "G-Man"   

[Trostle]

Don,

Several points:

Are you thinking just to have a free style event to show what somebody can do with an airplane, or are you thinking about having a contest that is judged?  As soon as you judge what is being flown, there would have to be some sort of catalog of maneuvers with standards to be judged.  Otherwise, somebdoy could come out and do some sort of "whifferdill" that nobody has ever seen before, the judges have no way of giving it a score, yet the pilot can say they he did it perfectly.  How would you judge that compared to another pilot's "razmatazalov" that, again, nobody has ever seen before.

No free style event should compromise safety.  Some maneuvers could be structured such that a portion must be flown in the upwind portion of the circle.  This, in itself, could interject some safety problems that would not be desirable.

It is possible to come up with a series of meneuvers that would/could really tax the capabilities of the pilot and airplane.  However, once you think about it, the maneuvers that we could perform with our stunt models would be a series of loops, corners, and other various elements that we already do in our pattern.  One thing that could be added is that maneuvers could be flown with 30-degree limits on sizes (or even smaller) compared to the 45-degree elements that define many of our current maneuvers.

This idea has been kicked around on numerous occassions.  There have been some peiople actually talk about organizing a contest around a "free style" event of some kind, but nothing has yet really materialized.  We need to give the Tulsa Glue Dobbers some recognition in their resurrection of the Mirror Meet pattern, but I do not think that includes any "free style" maneuvers.

Several years ago, Larry Renger and I posted on another forum an idea we had.  We proposed to take two airplanes to a Nationals, built to correspond with the rules for an unofficial event that we would sponsor and run at the next Nationals.  The rules were fairly simple.  Engine displacement limited to .15 cu in.  No appearance points.  No BOM.  Use the AMA pattern with two basic differences.  Instead of most of the various maneuvers being defined by the 45-degree and 90 degree elevations of the current rulebook, those maneuvers would be flown within 30-degree and 60-degree elevations.  There would also be a catalog of maybe a dozen or more "free-style" manevuers.  There would be two or three maneuvers selected from that catalog by the contest officials the morning of the contest to be included as part of the pattern to be judged.  We did not get any response of any kind on this idea.  I have posted this on several occassions and have not had any response, either that it was a good idea or that it was the dumbest thing ever.

One consideration about trying to come up with a new/different event.  As it is, we have the AMA skill classes which seem to be well supported and also seem to have helped keep CL Stunt alive and healthy, at least compared to other CL events.  We have the profile event with its various variations.  We have OTS.  We have the Classic event.  There have been some 1/2 A contests over the years.  Contests can be run in accordance with the FAI rules.  Some contests are run without any BOM requirements.  There have been some RTF and ARF only contests.  Do we really need another event at this time?  I think one of the reasons for the racing events and even the combat events has been the proliferation of events in those categories, then there were factions and splinter groups that divide or even seemed to fracture the activities and those events.   I think it is great to explore some ideas for change, innovation or whatever.  But these should be worked out at the local level.  Then, if there is a general acceptance, some of those ideas can be used on a wider scale.  Whatever the direction some of these ideas go, I think caution is appropriate so that our basic event of CLPA is not diluted to the point that interests are divided and can no longer support the good of our current events.

[Jim Morris]

Bislob.

[Keith Spriggs]

Bislob.

I got one going a few months ago and I really enjoy it. It is great for sport fliers that cant fly the pattern, but still like to show off. Generally the last stunt of the day is an inverted hover.

[Jim Thomerson]

St. Louis had Freestyle at several contests, but it never got popular.  Judging was done by the spectators who rated each flight from 1-100.   The first contest was won by John Garrett with his old green Twister. He flew out the tank in a flight that was choreographed with flow from one maneuver to the other. I was impressed.  Emil Kedro came in second with a BiSlob.  He flew the most impressive Bislob flight I have ever seen, but it didn't flow like John's flight did. 

The thing I like about PA is the  fixed pattern; that is what I like to fly. 

[Mike Palko]

I watched the giant scale (35%-40%) RC aerobatic planes fly the freestyle event at this years Nationals. It was the first time I have seen this event and it instantly became my favorite event to watch!!!     If you have never seen it, you can't describe it. The pilots (all between 16-24) flew to their own choice of music. They set up a full sound system and got judged on synchronization to the music, wow factor and audience applause among other things. (no maneuver was written in a book, some were not even recognizable, it is freestyle remember)

I watched the giant scale aerobatics the day before and like the pattern we fly it was interesting to watch and impressive, but it quickly got boring from a spectators point of view. Freestyle was in a different class all together.

After the Nats I talked about a freestyle event with some friends, but I didn't get much of a response. They didn't think it would work out as well in CL (we can't do spins, rolls, keep pace with music as easily because of the lack of throttle and airspace), but I think it could be done and done well. It also think it could be a real crowd pleaser and a real enjoyable flying style for the pilot!

Maybe some day I can talk enough people into it that we could hold a freestyle funfly/contest. I think the Brodak Flyin needs and extra day for "unofficial" events!!!     

Mike

[Marvin Denny]

  Tulsa Glu-dobbers held Free-Style stunt at many of their contests and still do occasionally.  It is fairly popular at their contests--  Bi- Slobs sorta dominated for a while, but some combat freaks did pretty well too.  I think the event was a lot of fun---  Especially when one top PAMPA flier , flying his Bi-Slob  decided to fly it laying down   The "grass" covering of the field was those really stickery GRASS BURRS--     He won the event that day---  snicker snicker snicker.
 I will never tell who THAT was,  except it certainly was NOT me.

  Bigiron

[Garf]

What I would like to see, is after the competition flying, if anyone is not too burned out, to have an informal freestyle flying session where anything goes. No prizes, no tropheys, just crazy flying. Horizintal hour glass, 3 leaf clover, double wingovers, overhead 4 leaf clover, vertical square 8's, etc.

[peabody]

A true "Freestyle" event would be nifty....no rules or schedule of maneuvers.....just fly before a judge or two...or three or more for "IMPRESSION POINTS". a single score.

Put, say, a five minute time limit on it...

My guess is that we would see an entirely new breed of lanes....speed would be a big thing, as it adds to the "WOW" factor...

Larry Scarinzi frequently amazes folks with his combat planes and the tricks that he does.....

[taildragger-j3]

I think a free-style session would be really cool. I can barely fly the beginner pattern, but I love just flying around and doing "stuff" for fun. I'd never be able to "compete" in such an event but I'd love to watch the really good guys just cut loose.

[John Miller]

Free style might be a fun thing to do for some, and I would encourage those so inclined to pursue the idea. Way back in the early days of Control line, what we'd call free style today was the norm for the event. "Madman" Yates got this nick name from performing wild stunts at high speed. Inverted flight was a real wow factor, as only a few had succeeded with the manuever. I've been told he would do this trick at 90 mph at an altitude of 6 inches.

The late Bob Palmer once told me that he went to a contest back then and asked the judges what manuever would win the contest. After some discussion, the judges told him that 8 loops in a row would do it for them. He flew the loops, won the contest.

This style of stuntin' probably had more appeal back then due to the fact that few people were able to do it and not crash. Today, for me, most of it would be rather ho hum. I could get into correographed flights, and team stunt though.

Anyway, don't let me be a wet blanket. If you like the idea, support it, and sponsor some sort of contest that features this style of flying. If it catches on great. The idea of an after contest event sounds good to me.

[Dwayne]

Saw a guy fly a tank out with his back against the school wall. Or how about flying your lines into a soccer post, then pull full up just before the model hits you and fly back around and do it again inverted! Yup those were the good old days. 
Course if you were to do this today someone would call you phsycotic...lol

[Garf]

Or how about flying your lines into a soccer post, then pull full up just before the model hits you and fly back around and do it again inverted!

If the lines stuck, you'd be hamburger.

[john e. holliday]

Allow throttles and design the appropriate plane, then watch out.  I got more spectators when I flew a flight/full tank of fuel and stayed on the down wind side of the circle.  I have also seen several Wichita guys fly in the wind after the engine quit running.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[L0U CRANE]

Schultzie,

Sure I like tying knots in the sky, too. When practice around home gets to me, I take a break and do just that...

However, the idea of a flying event in free-style seems to contradict itself - to me anyway.

Examples of what other sports call free-style are not fun. Like the beautifully flown full-scale aerobatics free-style virtuoso performance described earlier, in here, the "elements" are selected from the full schedule, each one having a difficulty rating, and if there is an extra outside factor, it is for the overall effectiveness of the presentation.

Who else does this? Figure skating and dancing; olympics gymnastics; diving - surely others, too.

What if we go that way? ...say select up to 8 figures either from the FAI schedule (where difficulty is reflected in the elements scored with the K-factors). Or add some other -understood and defined - new figures as options. We'd have at least some standards to fly and judge by. This way, we could add an effectiveness, or presentation, score value.

And, judges don't get left hung out to be flamed until their ashes don't glow about who won and why, or who scored "higher" (or "lower") and why...

But, like the Olympic free-style events, this will be even more stress on both judges and fliers.

...select all high-K-factor figures, and go for broke? A serious slip torpedoes the whole flight... (Think: a fall in an attempted Triple Axel...)

...select "safe" maneuvers (moderate/low Ks) and work on perfection and presentation?  So, XMan Joe (above) doesn't make a serious slip, and you go way down in the placing.

...prepare a written description of your presentation so the judges have at least some idea of what you'll try to do, without taking their eyes off the model (your transitions and links between maneuvers are, I expect, part of your presentation).

Naah, that sounds too much like World Level Olympic "Sports" complication.

Isn't the idea to just get out there and show off? Then let's call it that - e.g., "The field will remain available until X:XX o'clock after all competition flights have been completed, for hot-dogging, fun-flights, or whatever flying - except practicing - anyone wants to do - SAFELY!"

[Garf]

This is NOT a judged event. It is for fun and games after the dust settles. To help unwind. To let the creativity hang out. A little like the BiSlob flights.

[Dennis Moritz]

We could use an applause meter. Maybe kids under eleven could judge.

[Dwayne]

Schultzie,

Sure I like tying knots in the sky, too. When practice around home gets to me, I take a break and do just that...

However, the idea of a flying event in free-style seems to contradict itself - to me anyway.

Examples of what other sports call free-style are not fun.

 This is why I cant stand Monster Trucks anymore, it was fun when they used to race a 1/4 mile over a bunch of cars side by side, but  now all it I see on speed channel is free style...BLECH! 

[L0U CRANE]

Garf:> "This is NOT a judged event. It is for fun and games after the dust settles. To help unwind. To let the creativity hang out. A little like the BiSlob flights."

Thoughts:

1) We agree.

2) My problem was with the word "Event". Use that word, and some among us will try to out-do the others. THAT's where I'd expect it would have to take on standards, judges, scores, etc. And, like so many other things - Monster trucks among them - it will develop way beyond the original idea. Beyond being enjoyable to those in it. Beyond being attractive to more people to join in the fun.

3) We also agree that after a competition is finished is a GREAT time to hot-dog, enjoy, create, and wow the yokels and the knowledgables. Because many of us get together from varying distances for the contest , we have a good number of people ready to unwind (er, since we use lines to fly with, maybe better to say) relax.  AND the field is there, has been used for flying, and daylight remains after the last contest flight...(usually...)

[john e. holliday]

Why not just call it "FUN FLY".   That if you want to fly you can, other wise you sit an BS.  Have fun,  DOC Holliay

[Dennis Moritz]

Now and then on the East Coast there's there's talk about an improv stunt event, sometimes a bi-slob event. Weird how our community persists doing  the 14 shapes, been fifty years now. Bi-slobs are the epitome of improv stunt plane. Everyone who flies one seems to feel the music and want to sky dance. Fun flies are fun flies. Competition puts an edge on which I like. Guess I'm not alone. I think Garden State Circle Burners tried an improv stunt event. The crowd voted for a favorite. Again, I heard about this second or third hand and cannot vouch for the accuracy of my report. At Brodaks fliers take center circle late in the day and strut their stuff. Larry Scarinzi and young combat pilots wow the crowd. Fun. But efforts to make up a free style stunt event loose momentum. Even the move to a longer more intricate pattern, also wanes. And the Mirror meet pattern. Bringing that back. Personally I loved that idea. Far as I know that event didn't take off on the right coast. Did it come off in Tulsa? Didn't read any accounts of what happened.

[peabody]

Yup....The GSCB held a Free Style event....fun, and we judged the deal with "Impression Points".....the judges wrote a score between 1 and 100....
We'll have to do it again....the field will soon sog out..............

[De Hill]

 And the Mirror meet pattern. Bringing that back. Personally I loved that idea. Far as I know that event didn't take off on the right coast. Did it come off in Tulsa? Didn't read any accounts of what happened.
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The Tulsa Gluedobbers  have run two Mirror Meets thus far. Last year, we had 6 contestants. This year, we had 12. We really don't ever want more than 20 contestants. It's a one day meet, and more than 20 would take too long to finish up. Realistically, it's the most difficult stunt pattern ever flown in a contest, and not that many people will go to the trouble to learn the Mirror Meet pattern.

Larry Scarinzi told me that He and Red Reinhart used to practise every day for the week prior to the MM to get back up to speed on the manuvers. Red won it three times; more  than anyone else. Larry placed second two or three times.

We had John Abaray attend and judge the first MM. John won the Junior stunt division in 1953. Marvin Denny was also there; ( and judged) He placed in Speed at the MM in the middle 1950's flying with the Air Force team.

The Gluedobbers held Freestyle stunt for 10 years. We never had that many entrants, and judging freestyle was difficult. Judging by applause doesn't work, because you can't get (and keep) everyone's attention for all of the contestant's flights. We had between 3 and 5 contestants at each contest. When we went to the P-40 event, we went to 18 contestants the first year we held it. We will probably go to P-46 next year. (.46 size engines allowed)

We may also go to Classic 35.

De Hill

[Steve Helmick]

I've heard that Paul Walker ran a contest at Kent Boeing Space Center with some sort of trick pattern. He won, duh. Local legend is that he flew the whole pattern backwards, but I'd like more details.

Anybody know the correct way to do the square vertical 8? I always did them "lazy" style, because I didn't know any other way to do 8's.  Steve

[Garf]

Since it is not an "official" maneuver, there is no wrong way to do it.

[Peter Nevai]

How about a square clover, and a square vertical 8 would only be interesting if atarted from the top.

[Bill Little]

Ahhhhhhh...... Shultzie!  The origins of the CLPA Event.  As Ty (and others) mentioned, that is how our event started (as you know).   Flying *STUNTS*, not CLPA, was the event Du jour.

Can anyone here answer when the FIRST actual CLPA "Pattern" was adopted by the AMA??  (for newbies: it was after several National "STUNT" Champions were crowned!)

[Jim Thomerson]

There is an official AMA 1948 pattern similar to the 1951-52 pattern we use in OTS.  Couldn't say if it is the first one.  I have read something about the development of the pattern by Roy Mays (I think).  I'll see if I can find those comments and post them in the OTS forum.