Fox or Enya 35? (OTS)

[Steve Riebe]

Please help me decide. I have an older Enya 35 that runs great and seems to make considerably more power then my other choice, a Fox 35 stunt. I am planning to use either on a Smoothie currently on my building bench. This plane will eventually be used and hopefully qualified for old time stunt competition. What do you think?  You guys have never steered me wrong....

[Dennis Toth]

Steve,
I am flying the Fox 35 in my current OTS ship the El Diablo, this ship is 42" span and 33 oz. For this ship I use a 9x6 old Top Flite prop, 5% nitro, 26% oil fuel ( 95% castor 5% Klots). The Fox is a great little engine within limits. I think for the Smoothie it would be a bit too much airplane in the wind for the Fox to run at its best. If the Enya has a good fit on the front shaft bearing it could handle a full 10x6 prop and still make the right kind of power. The Fox could do it but has a cooling problem if pushed hard which causes the run quality to drop off, you don't get the solid 4-2-4 it's more of a 3-2-3 and in the wind will tend to wind up more as the motor wants to spin up as the load comes off with the wind pushing the ship. Another good chose would be an LA 46, that would give you lots of head room on power.

Best,      DennisT

[Dave_Trible]

Steve, I think either would be OK.  I'm thinking I really like Enya stuff and know its more powerful.  The Fox however weighs some less and may use a little less fuel.  I know tank space is small in the Smoothie.  Another point is the design itself.  Designed for the old time pattern pre square corners,  it was designed for wind flying with a strange, almost laminar flow airfoil which is marginal in lift.  Given that adding any more weight in the nose likely is not desirable.  I think I'd go the Fox for these reasons.

Dave

[Tom Niebuhr]

Hundreds of Smoothies have been flown with a Fox .35. with no problem. In the Classic Era we had Foxes in airplanes much larger than a Smoothie.

[dennis lipsett]

Hundreds of Smoothies have been flown with a Fox .35. with no problem. In the Classic Era we had Foxes in airplanes  much larger than a Smoothie.

And as soon as something better came along the really serious flyer  took that fox off, dumped it in the trash and never looked back. Old oaken bucket syndrome is rampant among senior modelers. Fortunately even so most of them have enough common sense to use an engine that really works in spite of being of all things 1/2 or horrors even one ounce heavier then the old rattle can fox.

[Brett Buck]

And as soon as something better came along the really serious flyer  took that fox off, dumped it in the trash and never looked back. Old oaken bucket syndrome is rampant among senior modelers. Fortunately even so most of them have enough common sense to use an engine that really works in spite of being of all things 1/2 or horrors even one ounce heavier then the old rattle can fox.

  I have often been tempted to start a "Fox VS GHQ" thread but never had the guts.

   Brett

[dennis lipsett]

  I have often been tempted to start a "Fox VS GHQ" thread but never had the guts.

   Brett

The GHQ might win. After all it never claimed to be anything.

[Dave_Trible]

I never really was a Fox .35 fan, I only ever owned 1.  I always chose McCoys, Johnsons and K&B instead for power and price but new Foxes are available.  Though it was king in 1965 today's beginners and upstarts ARE in 1965 for all intents and purposes.  They move forward in time as they move up in equipment.  Though never my favorite the Fox is there, cheap and works at the novice level.  It's also natural for many of the OT and Classic airplanes they have.  (Got a new Enya SS40 today from Japan.  It's purdy and would be my real choice!)

Dave

[john e. holliday]

The Fox .35 Stunt is the oldest design stunt on the market.   It has to be broken in properly.   It is not like the engines of today in which you take them out of the box.   Run a couple of times and go fly the pattern.   I am still flying a Fox that I bought back in the early 60's.   Yes I started with a McCoy Redhead .35, $10.00 version and litterally wore it out.   The Greenhead K&B .35 was my second engine and was even harder to break in than my old McCoy.   

I say build the airplane for the engine of your choice and fly it.   Now which engine works the best for you?

[John Stiles]

I'd like to swap you out of that Enya. What would it take?

[proparc]

I'd like to swap you out of that Enya. What would it take?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Recommend the Fox to him and convince him to give me the ENYA.

[Phil Bare]

Steve, I think that the Fox .35 would be the smart choice. Today, there is so much stuff available for it that you can pretty much tailor it to suite what ever pleases you. Fox offers a new Fox .35 today, plus hemi head, stuffer back plate, ceramic P&L. and so on. The Fox will do a fine job plus give you many options to 'up grade' it if you wish to. 29% castor, 10-15% nitro, and the balance methanol and the Fox will run for a very long time, long after the chrome has peeled off the liners of some of the 'better' engines of today.

Phil Bare

[Andrew Tinsley]

I have run Foxes and within limits they are nice old style power units. However they really don't have the sort of power that an Enya 35 will make. So I would go for the Enya any day. I must have 3 or 4 of them and they are almost indestructible. I have seen plenty of worn out Foxes, but never an Enya (unless you run it on R/C fuel!
The extra weight may be a problem and the only reason I might run a Fox in a Smoothie.

Andrew.

[John Stiles]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Recommend the Fox to him and convince him to give me the ENYA.

I been having 2nd thoughts about that Enya .29 I built a Ringmaster Imperial around....everytime I think about the last one I wrecked that had a K&B.40...I get to feeling wormy. I sure hope I don't wreck this one due to a deficiency in power as opposed to too much!

[dennis lipsett]

Steve, I think that the Fox .35 would be the smart choice. Today, there is so much stuff available for it that you can pretty much tailor it to suite what ever pleases you. Fox offers a new Fox .35 today, plus hemi head, stuffer back plate, ceramic P&L. and so on. The Fox will do a fine job plus give you many options to 'up grade' it if you wish to. 29% castor, 10-15% nitro, and the balance methanol and the Fox will run for a very long time, long after the chrome has peeled off the liners of some of the 'better' engines of today.

Phil Bare

Sure you can buy all of those goodies for the lowly Fox and surprise it doesn't do any more than the stocker except not vibrate as much, and burn a little more fuel. Rather than doing that add $20.00 to the total cost of all of that high zoot Fox and buy a Randy Smith Aero Tigre 36. Experience what a decent engine can do. Otherwise be prepared to tip the nitro can to get anything out of a Fox 35 in a 10 mile an hour wind, or a hot day.

John, if you have too little power with an Enya 35 in an Imperial I'm going to personally award you a trophy for building the heaviest model that the South has ever seen. LOL. Keep at it John, your doing good and stay healthy so you can fly it.

Dennis

[Phil Bare]

Dennis, the Fox will do all that it needs to do, stock, broken in properly and the only 'mod' needed is a piece of fuel line on the NV between the clicker knob and the venturie. I was just pointing out that there are options available if one desires to 'upgrade' the engine.
If you do not want to use a Fox, that is your choice. They have always done the job for me along with most every other engine no matter the name on it.
Arguing engines is like arguing cars or politics, I like Ford products and red.

[dennis lipsett]

Dennis, the Fox will do all that it needs to do, stock, broken in properly and the only 'mod' needed is a piece of fuel line on the NV between the clicker knob and the venturie. I was just pointing out that there are options available if one desires to 'upgrade' the engine.
If you do not want to use a Fox, that is your choice. They have always done the job for me along with most every other engine no matter the name on it.
Arguing engines is like arguing cars or politics, I like Ford products and red.

FORD   found on road dead, but I do like Red

Dennis

[John Stiles]

John, if you have too little power with an Enya 35 in an Imperial I'm going to personally award you a trophy for building the heaviest model that the South has ever seen. LOL. Keep at it John, your doing good and stay healthy so you can fly it.

Dennis

You are a smart man Gunga Den; but I don't have an Enya .35  

[Phil Bare]

Dennis,
Ford = First on race day.

[Steve Helmick]

I would suggest using the Enya, if only in the hope that Enya crankshafts don't break as often as Fox .35 Stunt cranks.  Steve

[Dennis Moritz]

Engine run and power often trump other factors, if everything else is close. Weight is another consideration. Enyas weigh more than Foxes. I just weighed a classic control line Enya without muffler, 8.3 ounces. I don't have a Fox 35 around, I think they come in nearly 2 ounces less than this. Getting the balance right on a Smoothie might mean as much as an ounce in the tail. A total of 3 ounces difference. Also, having the extra 2 ounces in the nose might mean more of penalty, since 2 ounces at the end of a fuselage, either end, has a greater effect on momentum than the 2 ounces placed closer to the cg. Stock Enya mufflers of that era are huge and fairly heavy. Factor that in as well. Tho it is possible to use a tongue muffler (I would) either using the clip or mounting directly to the case, if the case is drilled out to accept muffler mounting bolts.

Smoothies are an OT design using a fairly thin airfoil. I'd check with those who have flown these. Performance with the heavier engine might suffer too much.

[john e. holliday]

If you want to go with the heavier engine,  there is an item called prop extension that will let you move the engine back a bit.  Of course you may have to move the front firewall/bulkhead some also.

[DanielGelinas]

I'd go with a Brodak 40 because it is as lite as the fox (nearly), but has more power.
But if you want COOL, go with the fox.
-Dan

[Bill Little]

Hi Steve,

Either engine will do fine in the Smoothie.  For "Nostalgia" feeling, use the Fox.  There will be less need for unwanted balancing weights.  However, the Enya is a very good stunt engine!  More of a wet 2 style of run, but will 4-3 at a higher rpm than the Fox from my experience.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[phil c]

I built a Brodak Smoothie.  It has a slightly enlarged stab, since I used all the wood.  It needed an ounce of nose weight to fly at all precisely with a Brokak 40.  So I dropped in an LA 40 with the stock muffler and now it flys quite a bit better.  1/4 in. venturi and a 10/4 prop.  Generally it runs like a top in a 4 stroke at ~11,000 rpm.

[Dennis Toth]

Steve,
One comment about the Fox 35, if you change the NVA to a Super Tiger style, get one from Randy Smith that has the reduced center similar to the standard Fox NVA. This will give you pretty good power with a 10 x 6 prop. You will need at least 3 1/2 oz of 5% fuel, 4 oz if 10%. A couple of things to check on the Fox, take the plug out and remove the backplate, then put some after run oil in the motor and turn it over. Check that the con rod moves smoothly on the piston wrist pin and crank pin. As you turn the motor over should be smooth with no binds. If you feel any binding loosen the three back head bolts and check again. If it is smooth remove the head and take a No. 30 drill and run it through all the holes from the fin side. This gives just enough room to allow the head to pull down smooth with no binds (use a cross tighten pattern on the head bolts 1/8 turn at a time). Next put the backplate on and again tighten slowly, checking for binding as you turn the motor over. If you find a bind as you get to the final tighten take a No. 29 drill and run it through the holes in the backplate then retighten. Once it's smooth you should be good to go.

Make sure the motor mounts are straight and use the cross grain balsa between the mounts (ala Super Tiger 60 style mount). If you use aluminum pads put 1/64" plywood shims under the motor to provide "crush" space to allow for the very slight relief angle on the Fox mount case, here again as you tighten the motor into the mounts turn the motor over with the plug out and check for binding. If the mount bolts are not straight or centered you may need to run a No. 29 or 30 drill through the mounts to give room to for the bolts.

You should be good to go.

Best,       DennisT

[dennis lipsett]

Or you could buy one good engine and go fly instead of becoming a mechanic to a slag engine.

Dennis

[Phil Bare]

Or you could just be smarter than what your messing with and have no problems running a Fox.

[dennis lipsett]

Or you could just be smarter than what your messing with and have no problems running a Fox.

I have no problem running them, but why?
I have no urge to pay homage to a turd

[Phil Bare]

I think that people who feel the need to denigrate the most successful and longest produced engine of all times have some sort of problem. If you don't like them, don't use them.

[dennis lipsett]

I think that people who feel the need to denigrate the most successful and longest produced engine of all times have some sort of problem. If you don't like them, don't use them.

it is not denigration, Fox managed to do that all by themselves. And since when is it heretical to voice a counter opinion to a much overhyped engine,  Is there some unwritten imperative that because the engine was used by many in the day it is testament to it's superiority. The engine has to be compared to the O&R and the Forster which it was designed to compete against. Upon the demise of those 2 brands it was left as the last of the under performers that was the lightest, but certainly not the best engine  to use the day. If is was not for this unrealistic devotion to the engine by a rapidly diminishing group of users Fox could probably disappear with no one much caring, certainly not in any other aspect of the hobby.
actually I always thought that Fox made more duds then the Winton bros at AHC and that was no small feat. However They didn't have as many years as Fox to achieve that lofty goal.

[Phil Bare]

You don't like Fox engines, don't use them. The record of the Fox Stunt .35 speaks for its self. 
 

[john e. holliday]

AMEN Phil.

[ChrisSarnowski]

You should run what ever makes you happy. Fox, Enya, AeroTiger, OS, Brodak, PA, whatever. They are all fun.

-Chris

[Terrence Durrill]

I've been using Fox .35 stunt engines (and Fox .29 stunt engines) on the Smoothie, Thunderbird, Nobler, Barnstormer, All American Senior and similar models since 1955......wouldn't use anything else on airplanes of a similar type and have been more than satisfied with their performance.  I would recommend them 100%, but again, that's just me.....TDurrill   

[Steve Riebe]

I really do appreciate all the responses, and keeping the plane light seems to make sense. Might as well build for the Fox. My Fox actually runs and starts pretty well since I put an Enya needle valve on it, I like the flexible stem so I can keep my sausage fingers away from the prop a little easier. There's one kind of quirky thing with the Enya, the metric prop shaft causes minor problems in that I have to mess with the propeller hole to get a fit, and spinner adapter nuts are somewhat hard to find but I know they are out there. Right now the Enya has an old school Veco aluminum spinner and it's even the right size for the smoothie. Oh well, this will give me an excuse to build another plane for the Enya. Thanks again for all your help.   

[John Stiles]

I have a couple of Fox .29s I'd swap for an enya .35! It's not all about the name on an engine, it's more about the application. You fellers play nice...don't make me call Shaaaaaaarrrronnnnnnnn on you.

[Phil Bare]

AMEN Phil.

Thanks John 

[Jim Kraft]

Well now, back to Fords I saw this on a speed limit sign. "Speed limit 65, Fords just do the best you can".

Oh! and I am a Fox lover as well as old Harleys.

[Steve Riebe]

Well now, back to Fords I saw this on a speed limit sign. "Speed limit 65, Fords just do the best you can".

Oh! and I am a Fox lover as well as old Harleys.

 I like old Fords (own a 26 T fordor sedan) and old Triumph bikes. As a matter of fact, I like all kinds of things that are old. 

On a side note, I looked at specs on the Enya and the Fox 35, the Enya is only .7 oz. heavier.  Hmmm. I'm starting to have a hard time with this...

[Phil Bare]

You should run what ever makes you happy. Fox, Enya, AeroTiger, OS, Brodak, PA, whatever. They are all fun.

-Chris

Chris, you nailed it perfectly, I have accumulated close to 400 engines  in my 60 or so years of involvement in the model airplane hobby and I have some examples from all the American manufacturers as well as most of the foreign ones. My 'collection' are not showcase quality, but runners.
They all are fun and relaxing to run and they all will fly airplanes that match their capability's.
I tend to fly stuff that I can still find parts for, thus the Fox Stunt .35 or my Forster .35s that Mecoa makes parts for and of course the new stuff like OS, Enyas, Norvell, Evos and ETC., ETC.
They are all fun and for me, that's always what its been about.
I have no interest in contests or 'impressing' others with the latest and greatest mega buck engines or anything else.
Fun is the name of the game and my last flight was just as much fun as my first one all those many years ago with the help of two older brothers who were both excellent modelers but have now passed on.
Heck, I even enjoy driving my old 1941 Ford Tudor all original car just because I can and it is fun.
Phil Bare

[Joe Peters]

IF I EVER HAD A CHOICE OF WHICH .35 to run, it would be the MAX-S.  This is an exact swap-out for the BRODAK .40.   This the best when you want a 4-2-4 run!
Joe Peters
AMA269

[goozgog]

  I always considered Fox anything to be
inferior until I was given two .35's from
an estate. Both have stuffer back plates,
hemi heads and ST NVA's.
  Light, easy starting, flexible, powerful
enough AND authentic.
    I also have a newer Enya 5224 with the
low compression head and correct venturi.
   The Fox wins hands down. No question
about it. 
My two cents worth.

[L0U CRANE]

Not suggesting this describes you, Dennis. I honor your opinion and freedom to voice it.

Back in the mid-1950's, around New York City, ENYA 522x series came available, as did the twin stack OS 29. They had two advantages over (VECO, Fox, K&B, McCoy) US engines:-

1) They were imports, and EVERYONE knew that anything imported was better than our cheap cr*p.

2) They mostly were "prettier." Better finish, neater look, better "styling."

Both "ours" and "theirs" worked, BTW.

Remember, those were the days of the European import-car hysteria. Some totally useless UK sedans sold well here, stuff that ran even worse than they looked - unless you were an import snob.

I was infected, too, and it took me a while to 'appreciate' Made in America things like Johnsons,  certain Fox Combat Specials, and the best of the K&B 35s...

ENYA engines still include the 522xs, although they ARE about 6 years newer the the Fox Stunt 35. they still do well what they did back then, and that's still better than a stock Stunt 35 for brute power and perhaps dependability.

Brand-loyalty? Ford v Chevy? PC v Apple? Not to mention sports team fans.. Why argue about it?

Because it's there. Enjoy what you like; your reasons support YOUR choices. So do the reasons other choose what they do. What I would be uncomfortable with is someone demanding that I change things I believe, for no better reason than that they DEMAND it, and some even become insulting when others don't obey them immediately.

[55chevr]

Steve ... did you fly the Smoothie with the Fox ?


Joe

[Steve Riebe]

Not yet, still trying to find time to finish the plane. I did however purchase an L & J Fox 35 from one of our sponsors, RSM Distribution. Eric Rule seems like a really good guy, and spoke very highly of the great things that engine would do for the Smoothie.

On a side note, today the Circle Cutters club held a race event, limited to only stock Fox 35's. I was quite impressed how well that Fox I already had carried my Sterling mustang. I think I may have underestimated it's capability.

[55chevr]

Fox engines are similar to small block Chevy engines.  Old design but modern, powerful to a point.  Reliable and durable.   A lot of engines that have superior castings, machining and more power to weight but the Fox is a classic.    I flew a Fox 29 this morning that hasn't flown on a model since 1996.  Started right up and pulled a Shoestring thru basic maneuvers.  I had to free it up last week with a torch as it was locked solid with congealed castor oil.

Joe

[Dennis Moritz]

Many in my club use Fox 35s. A plague of Foxes. Light and versatile and surprisingly powerful. A fetish of Foxes. I've seen Foxberg Foxes hit near 14 thousand using a 9inch something prop. Run like that year after year. The unbushed lower end defying known laws of physics, holding up. Engines like that are usually hand fitted by a club member with the "feel." Otherwise they do a cartoon pop and break the crank. Almost all Old Time models of a certain size are powered by Fox 35s in the Philly Flyers. Lots of sport planes use Fox 35s. The blat/burp during outside maneuvers makes for smiles all around. I'd rather run Tower and FP 40s in sport planes for many of the reasons outlined above, in fact I never run Foxes, come to think of it. An outcast in a club of outcasts. Some of these Foxes have needed, out of the box, new front bushings and piston lapping to work well. Now and then I've seen new Fox 35s that were more like engine kits than finished products. Despite these obvious liabilities, Foxes endure and fly. On any given day at the field, might be more Foxes than anything else.

[Bill Little]

Not yet, still trying to find time to finish the plane. I did however purchase an L & J Fox 35 from one of our sponsors, RSM Distribution. Eric Rule seems like a really good guy, and spoke very highly of the great things that engine would do for the Smoothie.

On a side note, today the Circle Cutters club held a race event, limited to only stock Fox 35's. I was quite impressed how well that Fox I already had carried my Sterling mustang. I think I may have underestimated it's capability.

HI Steve,

I believe the Fox by L&J (Larry Foster) is slightly more powerful than a stock Fox.  I believe this comes from it being much smoother running through his balancing.  It shakes less!  I have one and the break in is key.  I followed Larry's instructions and it is flawless in use.  Still not an Aero Tiger .36 though..........

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[James D. Hayes]

I fly a Ringmaster with and old fox .35 on it, I'm only in my second year of flying control line, just starting to do some loops, wingovers. lazy 8's etc. My fox is the best part of the day, starts easy, makes lot's of noise and pulls my ringmaster in a perfec 4-2-4 break as long as I run the right fuel. I've got some other engines slated for other planes in my building future. right now I'm building a Dick Mathis stuka and it is slated for a 35th anniversary fox new out of the box. I also have a Sterling F-51 Mustang with a old fox .29 on it, runs quite well. I would have to say that I love fox engines so far. That's speaking as a novice....


Jim Hayes
New Mexico Coalition of Control Line addicts
AMA 988835