Fox .59 Stunt engine

[Andrew Borgogna]

First of all I think its a .59, I am sure it is a Fox.  The glow plug comes out the side of the head at a right angle to the cylinder, and the person who gave it to me said it is a stunt engine.  I got it along with a plane built back in 1970 and my plan is to recondition the plane and engine and try to determine what the plane is.  I hope it is something that is OLT or Classic legal.  The plane has no flaps and Larry Renger said it reminded him of a Chief.  I will post pictures soon.  The first thing I want to do is remove the engine and run it through the crock pot treatment and try running it on the bench.  It even came with a Top Flite nylon prop vintage 1970s.  Anyway if you have some information on the engine please pass it along, one more thing it is a ringed engine and a rather large ring at that.
Andy

[Marvin Denny]

  The Fox Falcon also looks a lot like the Fox 59.  Plug out the side of the head etc.  If there is a Flag on the bypass then it is a Falcon 60.  I have been told that some of the parts will interchange.

  Bigiron

[Bill Gruby]

Andy;
  One more thing to add to Marvin. Thr Fox .59 has a venturi that is part of the  "Cranckcase" casting. The Falcon .60 has a venturi held in by two set screws. It is a machined part.

 "Billy G"

[Bob Zambelli]

Andy - I would strongly recommend NOT USING the Top Flite nylon prop. One that old had a very good chance of breaking.

Use it to stir paint.

Bob Z.

[Ralph Wenzel (d)]

Just to add a few more details, Andy, unless you come up with a muffler, you don't yet know the meaning of loud! And to amplify what Bob said about the TF prop, while a Fox .35 shakes a bit, the old .59 shakes! It'll tear the blades off a plastic prop, especially one that old. A new Master Airscrew might have a chance, but a good wood prop is a better choice.

Run it like a Fox .35, 25% all-castor minimum, and probably a 5 oz. tank to deal with the OTS Pattern. You may need to add extra head shims (I never learned to trust the fiber gaskets) to help with the 4-2-4 break. You also need really solid engine mounts, 3/8 x 1/2 minimum, 1/2" sq are better.

It'll swing a 13-6 prop quite happily, assuming it's fully broken-in.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Bob Z.
LOL, I have absolutly no intention of using the nylon prop for anything other than maybe something to dress up a plaque.  I do appreciate your concern.
Andy

[Charlie Pate]

Is the intake in the front or rear of the the engine?
Either can be a Fox 59, but the rear intake version would be a "keeper sho nuff!

[Jim Kraft]

I'm guessing its a Falcon as the 59 says Fox 59 on the bypass.

[Dennis Adamisin]

See Pix, the Falcon is clearly marked too.  Falcons also have muffler bosses (59's did not), three holes in each mounting lug, and the mounts are centered on the thrustline.  Mounts on the 59 are about 3/16 above the thrustline.

I think all Falcons had a brite finish case, the one in pix was in bad shape so it got sand blasted to even it up.  I have not seen a 59 in a brite case, but they had smooth alum finish (like 35's) and I think later series had a dull finish - but not sand blasted.

The Falcon uses Fox 59 innards (one in pix was rebuilt that way)

[Bill Mohrbacher]

Dennis,

Is the venturi on your Falcon a Fox factory part or did you convert the Falcon from an RC engine?  I've seen pictures of 4 Falcon CL and each one has a different venturi!

[Dennis Adamisin]

Bill:
The Falcon in the pix was resurrected from an EBAY basket case.  No carb but it was tapped for the set screws so it must have been RC(?).  The venturi was made by Big Art, NV assy from current 40.  I do not recall that I have ever seen a C/L Falcon, except for the one in the pix!

Andrew:
Does the engine in the pix resemble the one you have?  I am a little perplexed because both the Fox 59 and Fox Falcon have side plugs, but as posts here have mentioned, both are also clearly marked - (unless someone filed off the markings?) so identifying either of these engines should have been pretty straight forward...

[Andrew Borgogna]

Dennis and all
The engine I have almost resembles the engine you show.  My venturi is part of the crank case casting, and it does infact have .59 stamped on the bypass.  I started the disassembly last night, heating the head and backplate freed them them up and after spending the night in a crock pot the steel cylinder came off.  The crank now turns and the piston and rod are ready for removal and cleaning.  Any suggestions on the removal order for the rod and piston would be greatly appreciated.  Finally I just got off the phone with Fox and they are sending me a new gasket kit for the engine. 

When I inspected the piston and cylinder I observed very little wear at all.  No scratches and no cylinder ridge at TDC and the head chamber is clean.  From what I can see this engine may be old but it has very little run time on it.  For the better part of the last 30 years it sat on my friends fireplace mantle and then in the rafters of his garage.  I will try to get some pictures tonight to post.
Andy

[Jim Kraft]

Andrew; On the Fox 59 I have, the rod to crank had a brass eyelet in the crank pin to hold the rod on the shaft. I could not remove it without ruining it, and had to make a new one. Do make sure that the wristpin is not stuck in the rod, as this is very common for these engines that have not run for a long time. Is this a ringed or lapped?

[Andrew Borgogna]

Jim
Its a ringed engine.  The rod seems to move on the crank pin, it just seemed to lack the clearance to clear the case.  It went in so it must come out, but I did not see any brass device holding it in.  I exchanged emails with the original owner this morning and found out the reason it looks so good inside is the engine only has 4 or 5 tank fulls on it.  It is virtually brand new.
Andy

[Herman Green]

Dennis,

A question for you regarding the Falcon.  I guess lots of people have a "George Aldrich said" story, but George wrote to me that the Falcon couldn't be made into a suitable stunt engine.  He said the timing was radically different from the .59 Stunt.  I know a .59 piston and liner could be put into the Falcon and should make a good engine, but does anyone have any experience with using a Falcon stock?  I'm particularly interested because I have 2 new ones, 1 nearly new one and 1 good used one.

Herman

[Ralph Wenzel (d)]

Well, this has become a more wide-ranging question than I had thought it was. To the best of my knowledge, all the ringed Fox .59 engines left the factory equipped with a throttle for R/C. Only the lapped-piston versions were set up for C/L, and this mirrors my collection. All my ringed engines have a throttle and an exhaust butterfly; the lapped engines are for C/L. It would be trivial, of course, to replace the throttle with a venturi for C/L.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Herman,
I have never seen a Falcon run, and cannot comment on differences in timing versus the 59 (Bill M???), but the engine in the pix was rebuilt with 59 crank, rod, & (ringed) piston in the Falcon sleeve.  In fact, the sleeve/fins should probably be replaced too, if/when I run it.  I actually plan on painting the head and venturi red so I can amaze my friends!

As for the Falcon being unsuitable for stunt - I dunno, maybe George was talking about it in the context of a classic 4-2-4 break?  Modern piped engines seem poised to run fast/steady runs unlike the old 4-2-4 break, worse case, maybe the Falcon could be made to run that way too with a 4-pitch prop?  No substitute for just getting one airborne and seeing what it takes to make it work. 

The one mod I am aware of is to replace the fiber head gasket with an aluminum one.  The aluminum allows better heat transfer between the head and cylinder and keeps the engine from overheating - or so I am told.

There are lots of folks running 59's successfully, perhaps some will chime in here? 

Sounds like you have the market cornered on Falcons!  I have one brand new Falcon RC too.  Its so light I wanted to use it in a RC model in place of a modern 46 at about the same weight!

[Herman Green]

Dennis,

I agree with your ringed vs. lapped assessment regarding the .59's.  That's what Duke Fox himself once told me (in a letter).  I do, however, have a .59 stunt with a two ring piston and bridged port sleeve, but considering it's age and unknown history, it could easily have been modified by someone.  I haven't noticed any real difference in the running of the lapped vs. the ringed ones.

Herman

[Dick Byron]

I sold a 2 ring new in box Fox 59 at Tucson several years ago. It was a C/L version. Sold it with a Stuntwagon as a package. $350.00

[Andrew Borgogna]

OK folks here are some pictures of the disassembled engine after cleaning. It is most definitely a two ring version and as my friend said, and I believe the pictures support his statement, this engine is not even broken in.

[Bill Mohrbacher]

I haven't checked the timing to compare a 59 to a Falcon, but the parts lists for a 1970 59 stunt and a 1972 Falcon list the same number for a cylinder and piston and do not show different numbers for the RC or single speed.

Now about the ringed piston.  The 1954 - 1957 59s had lapped iron pistons.  They never had throttles, but were available in a 2 NVA version (2 peed).  In later 1957 or so, the 59 was discontinued.

In 1962 the 59 was resurrected.  It now had a ringed aluminum piston and a different rod.  Also, it was offered both in a single speed and a true throttled version, BOTH WITH RINGED ALUMINUM PISTONS.  The 1962 stunt box was Fox's "purple and pumpkin" colors and showed a sunt model going through a square outside loop, one of the prettiest boxes I've seen!  This is the engine Larry Scarinzi used in his Blue Angel (with wooden wedges he and Duke Fox stuffed into the intake to choke it down to tame it).  The intake on the 1962 and later engines had flat sides and was squareish where it met the case, distinctly different than the 54-57 engines.

All subsequent 59s and the Falcon had ringed aluminum pistons, althought the guts were modifed through the years.

Hope all this helps; more than you wanted to know!

 

[Keith Spriggs]

Very interesting thread. The amount of knowledge available here is unbelievable. Bill , you wouldn't happen to have a similar picture as the one you posted for the .59 only for the stunt .35. It would be very interesting to to see the evolution of it.

[Jim Oliver]

Bill,
Thanks for your input-----NOT more than we wanted to know!! 

Duke and his engines are part of the life and history of CL and CLPA----very interesting stuff.

The pix you posted of the four different R/C 59's was very helpful.  I am now also waithing for a Falcon to be delivered by the USPS, so that info is useful also.

Jim

PS: Your pictures are most interesting----is there a reference book available?

[Andrew Borgogna]

Bill
Thanks from me too!  It is clear from your pictures I have the 1962 Fox .59 stunt engine.  Now that I have it appart and after talking to the friend who gave it to me I realize it is in near new condition.  I will carefull reassemble it when the gasket kit arrives from Fox and bench test it.  I plan to use the Fox blend of fuel that I use on the .35 stunt engine.  I would ask with a ringed aluminum piston and steel cylinder if an all Castor blend is required or even the best fuel to use.  I was  thinking the GMA blend of 11x11x10 might be preferred.  From your vast knowledge, what prop size and pitch and fuel mix would you recommend.
Again thanks for your input.
Andy

[Bill Little]

Andy,

Please check your Messages.

[Garf]

I have 3 pages of Fox engines posted in the archives of this site including some 59's.

http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1814

[Bill Mohrbacher]

There is a Fox reference available.  Contact Tim Dannels:

28795 CR331
Buena Vista, CO  81211

ecj@chaffee.net

Tim is the editor of the Engine Collectors' Journal.  A couple of years ago, Doug Martin started a project to catalog all the Foxes that had been catalogged or advertised (not factory specials).  John Hall and I jumped in t help Doug.  Tim Dannels published out results in many issues of ECJ.  Also, Tim published the American Model Engine Encyclopedia which covers ALL engines thru 1975.  Write or Email Tim and he can fix you up.  You may need to get the AMEE for the first articles and indiviadual ECJs for the end.  We spent about 2 years on this project with a lot of help from guys like Wild Bill Ives, Stunt Grunt Dick Wolsey, Marvin Denny, Gordon Sharpe, and others who I apologize for not mentioning.Feel free to correct or add to our work!! 

[Keith Spriggs]

Thanks to everybody. I clicked on the link and saw three pages of pictures. They are great. I never realized that there were so many different Fox engines. I visited the factory in the late sixties and it was mind boggling. I am afraid to even look at a copy of ECJ. I already have a collection of collections as my kids say.

[Bill Gruby]

 
  Here is my new aquisition, a Fox .59 2 - Speed, circa 1954.

     "Billy G"   

[Andrew Borgogna]

Bill
Did you get my email yesterday?
Andy

[Bill Mohrbacher]

I haven't seen your Email Andy.  I'm at

cwcatz@verizon.net

Bill

[Andrew Borgogna]

Wrong Bill, I sent an email to Bill Little.  Sorry for the confusion.
Andy

[Bill Little]

Wrong Bill, I sent an email to Bill Little.  Sorry for the confusion.
Andy

No Emails, Andy. ??  I got your address through the PM.  My email is: wlittleiii "at" nc.rr.com

Some times the three lower case "i" gets dropped and there is another "wlittle" on nc.rr.com. so it doesn't get kicked back.

Bill Little

[Andrew Borgogna]

Oh good Bill (Little) that's because two other Bills thought I was leaving a message for them.  I have sent my address to you three times and it seems that nome of the emails got to you.  You can call me at 714-401-6514.
Andy

[Andrew Borgogna]

The gasket kit arrived this evening and I couldn't wait to put the engine back together.  The only problem area was getting the two clips that keep the wrist pin from moving around back in place.  Other that that it was a fairly easy assembly.  The rings pinched together and the piston went into the cylinder very easy.  It has great compression and I look forward to running it on the bench over the weekend.
Andy

P.S. See the new thread on the plane the engine came in.