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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Brian Gardner on March 26, 2014, 01:42:30 AM
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OK Guys,
In the thread about McCoy 35 ABC sets a number of people expressed interest in ABC piston/liner/rod/pin sets for the Fox 36X.
I took name and put them on a list. We appear to have enough numbers to make this fly.
In order to progress this we need a discussion on which Mk is required/most popular and what parts are interchangeable between the different versions. Loop scavenged or schnurle etc?
Once we come to a consensus I will need a loan of a good condition example engine to get measurements from.
So open to you guys now....please discuss.
Brian
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I'd be interested in parts for the standard 36X. I'd expect the parts would fit both the needle bearing and ball bearing version. When you get into the bald head 36X MKI and later engines the internals are different as they're schnuerle ported.
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I would be interested in a set for the 1st. model 36X with the single needle bearing. I think it also fits the .36 sport with the slant plug and plain bearing.
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I'll be looking for the BB version from 65-73. This will work in the needle bearing version as well. I was told by someone very familiar with the engine that the only difference is the relief in the liner for the bearing. I believe this to be the one most will be seeking. I'm no expert and I'm sure someone with more expertise then me, will chime in. This is the version I will be seeking. As mentioned I will take 4 sets.
Fox 36x BB fitted for combat
Thanks,
Tom
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OK Guys,
In the thread about McCoy 35 ABC sets a number of people expressed interest in ABC piston/liner/rod/pin sets for the Fox 36X.
I took name and put them on a list. We appear to have enough numbers to make this fly.
In order to progress this we need a discussion on which Mk is required/most popular and what parts are interchangeable between the different versions. Loop scavenged or schnurle etc?
Once we come to a consensus I will need a loan of a good condition example engine to get measurements from.
So open to you guys now....please discuss.
Brian
Hi Brian
ALL of the FOX 36X engines were single bypass cross flow engines with baffles, there were NO Loop Charged ones (Dr Schnurle designed loop Charging) So they will all need baffles on them,
Should be a big increase in the life of the OLD Fox 36X with your ABC setups.
Are you making these with pins and rods ?
Regards
Randy
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Hi Brian
ALL of the FOX 36X engines were single bypass cross flow engines with baffles, there were NO Loop Charged ones (Dr Schnurle designed loop Charging) So they will all need baffles on them,
Should be a big increase in the life of the OLD Fox 36X with your ABC setups.
Are you making these with pins and rods ?
Regards
Randy
Yes Randy, that's the plan to do rods & pins.
I'm not particularly familiar with them. I did have one for a short while years back. So I'll be needing input from the guys that are intimate with them.
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Then the new P/S sets should fit the 35X, 36X and 36X bb , maybe even the plain 36 shiney case :-)
Randy
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Brian I wanted the 36x and not the combat motor. never new them to have ball or roller bearings. maybe asking for the wrong thing.
Steve
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Brian I wanted the 36x and not the combat motor. never new them to have ball or roller bearings. maybe asking for the wrong thing.
Steve
Steve the FOX 36X had a version that was called the 36X BB it had ball bearings, there was another that look just exactly the same that had roller bearings, they all used the same piston/sleeve , the BB had a modified rod
Randy
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The 36X is a combat engine. There are a few different engines marked 36X on the case, there's the needle bearing 36X, ball bearing 36X, which are identical aside from the bearing, and the MK I & II Combat Special which look alike and have 36X marked on the case but share virtually nothing with the 36X.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/36xedit.jpg)
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The needle bearing crank was slightly larger in diameter.
MM
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Hi Brian,
Put me down for 5 sets of the Fox 36x BB. This engine has the baffle on top of the piston. The 36x BB has a small relief on the piston to clear the rear bearing in the case. Care has to taking in not making to relief to wide to pervent sub piston induction. I think the baffle should be made stronger something like the K&B 40 because the old piston is made of steel and some of us like to run 40% nitro to hear it crackle. This piston and liner set would work in the needle bearing engines with no mods. You could make a FOX SUPER DUPER STUNT by putting it into a fox 35 stunt by changing the rod & head. The new liner would also fit the 36 shiney case but I think the 36x has a thicker rim at the top of the liner and would give you more head clearance so you would have to do some checking. Motorman is right, the needle bearing crank is slightly larger in diameter than the BB but the crank pin is the same.
Al
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Hi Brian,
Put me down for 5 sets of the Fox 36x BB. This engine has the baffle on top of the piston. The 36x BB has a small relief on the piston to clear the rear bearing in the case. Care has to taking in not making to relief to wide to pervent sub piston induction. I think the baffle should be made stronger something like the K&B 40 because the old piston is made of steel and some of us like to run 40% nitro to hear it crackle. This piston and liner set would work in the needle bearing engines with no mods. You could make a FOX SUPER DUPER STUNT by putting it into a fox 35 stunt by changing the rod & head. The new liner would also fit the 36 shiney case but I think the 36x has a thicker rim at the top of the liner and would give you more head clearance so you would have to do some checking. Motorman is right, the needle bearing crank is slightly larger in diameter than the BB but the crank pin is the same.
Al
Without an engine on hand to check myself, how would the beefier baffle mate with the corresponding slot in the head Al?
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There is lots of room on the exhaust side of the baffle to make it thicker with a ramp like the K&B 40.
Al
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Lots of room on the exhaust side of the baffle
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I would like to order 3 Rods and pin sets for the 36X ball Bearing engine.
Also I have both style 36X that you could use. Ball Bearing shaved head and the Needle bearing head with fins. The pistons and liners are different in both.
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The 36X and 36 X BB I have here I used for combat back in the 70s 80s have the exact same piston and sleeve, I am not sure why others are different. I have some new in pack also.
Brian if you don't get one from anyone, let me know I can let you use mine
Randy
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The only pistons/cylinders that should be different are the bald head MK I and MK II Combat Special, but then they aren't really 36Xs anyway. They have dual ball bearings, a bushed rod, and schnuerle porting, flat top piston/Swiss cheese liner, completely different from the 36X. By all accounts the MK I and MK II aren't very good engines anyway, not likely worth the trouble.
The 36X either with needle bearing or ball bearing should share the same piston/liner/rod/wrist pin, but I haven't had both apart at the same time to compare the internals.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3270002a.jpg)
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The only pistons/cylinders that should be different are the bald head MK I and MK II Combat Special, but then they aren't really 36Xs anyway. They have dual ball bearings, a bushed rod, and schnuerle porting, flat top piston/Swiss cheese liner, completely different from the 36X. By all accounts the MK I and MK II aren't very good engines anyway, not likely worth the trouble.
The 36X either with needle bearing or ball bearing should share the same piston/liner/rod/wrist pin, but I haven't had both apart at the same time to compare the internals.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3270002a.jpg)
The MK 1s were terrible motors, I blew up everyone I had, Duke sent new ones, The rods were sliced almost in half for lubing the pin, those destructed very quickly, many on run number one.
They blew up on Dukes fuel 10% nitro, I stopped using Missle Mist after the first motor grenade d . Duke fixed the design, and the second iterations were vastly better
Randy
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Fair warning, if you try to get too much power from any Fox engine the metallurgy will let you down. Not the least of which could be the crankshaft shooting out the front of the engine.
MM
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Cool, we are getting somewhere here. I like the ramped baffle idea Al.
And it should be the case that the BB and Needle bearing engines use the same piston & liner...I'm happy there...
Another question I have fellas is what is the big end of the stock rod like? Were they bushed? Is there enough meat in the rod to bush if they weren't, or is there enough room in the case to beef up the big end of the rod to bush?
A number of years back I did conversion sets for the St35. They consisted of a stunt timed piston/liner/baffle head etc. I got good feedback on those. I also did one batch of combat ST35 sets but never got any feedback as to whether we had the fit tight enough etc. Anyone around that bought one of those that can tell me how they performed?
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On a tour of the Fox factory I saw connecting rods in production. I-shaped extrusion with a series of holes top and bottom, then separated and contoured.
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At last years combat festival I won the LS trophy for blowing up my 36x BB in my Super Satan. I was trying to document the Satan on video doing 120mph flight as it had done on prior runs. The engine never fully unloaded and broke during the timed laps but still managed 113 mph on its fatal run. :'( The baffle blew off the top of the piston just like Larry Scarinzi's did back in the 60s. This engine was jacked up pretty high and running 40 % nitro. After looking back on what happened to the engine, I should have opened the needle more on the ground and probably put a .005 shim under the head for more of a safety cushion. I have seen these engines take a beating and come back for more. Even today in drag racing with all the best parts and big bucks, guys grenade engines when you take it to the limit.
Al
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The MK 1s were terrible motors, I blew up everyone I had, Duke sent new ones, The rods were sliced almost in half for lubing the pin, those destructed very quickly, many on run number one.
They blew up on Dukes fuel 10% nitro, I stopped using Missle Mist after the first motor grenade d . Duke fixed the design, and the second iterations were vastly better
Randy
I haven't run the MK II in my stash, but it's evident it's run a bit. The rod is bushed at the bottom end, and cut liberally for oiling. In researching I haven't read anything good about them. Mine will probably get run a few times, just because and become a wall hanger.
At last years combat festival I won the LS trophy for blowing up my 36x BB in my Super Satan. I was trying to document the Satan on video doing 120mph flight as it had done on prior runs. The engine never fully unloaded and broke during the timed laps but still managed 113 mph on its fatal run. :'( The baffle blew off the top of the piston just like Larry Scarinzi's did back in the 60s. This engine was jacked up pretty high and running 40 % nitro. After looking back on what happened to the engine, I should have opened the needle more on the ground and probably put a .005 shim under the head for more of a safety cushion. I have seen these engines take a beating and come back for more. Even today in drag racing with all the best parts and big bucks, guys grenade engines when you take it to the limit.
Al
I haven't pushed mine very hard. I'm running the needle bearing 36X on a Voodoo, no restrictor, backplate pressure/hard tank, 10% nitro, 9x6 prop. A couple weeks ago I managed to blow the head gasket. The resulting leak burned the leading edge of the wing down to the wood. It might have been a hair lean. Clocked it at about 99.7mph in the same config a few months ago. Imagine it'd go faster with a bit more pitch, nitro, less engine offset, ball bearing, etc.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3150019.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3150015.jpg)
Another question I have fellas is what is the big end of the stock rod like? Were they bushed? Is there enough meat in the rod to bush if they weren't, or is there enough room in the case to beef up the big end of the rod to bush?
The stock 36X rods aren't bushed, but there's a fair bit of meat. There may be less clearance between the OD of the rod and ID of the case in the needle bearing engine, but I don't have one I can take apart at the moment to check.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3180006.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/P3280011.jpg)
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(Another question I have fellas is what is the big end of the stock rod like? Were they bushed? Is there enough meat in the rod to bush if they weren't, or is there enough room in the case to beef up the big end of the rod to bush?)
Brian, The big end of the rod does not have a bushing. The Fox MKIV Rod (part # 13727) has a bushing in the big end of the rod and fits the 36x baffle engines. The only problem using the MKIV rod is that it's not offset like the 36x engine rod. The offset centers the rod in the piston when assembled. The 36x has a shoulder on the crank pin that's why the rod needs to be offset.
Al
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In Andrew's photo of the piston you can see the relief on it. This is needed when the piston comes close to the rear bearing in the case of the BB engine at bottom dead center.
Al
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Thanks guys, a picture tells a thousand words as they say.
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A question if I might, probably to Randy Smith. Are the .36X piston, rod, sleeves compatible with the Rocket .35 combat specials to include the red head?
Bob
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The top flange on the 36 is thicker to allow for the longer stroke. You can use the 36 stuff in the 35's but the timing and compression will be different. Maybe, if Brian makes these for us he could easily make the .35 sleeves to order by just using a thinner flange on top.
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A question if I might, probably to Randy Smith. Are the .36X piston, rod, sleeves compatible with the Rocket .35 combat specials to include the red head?
Bob
Hi Bob
I do not know thew answer to that one, I never tried to use the P/S in a Black head or Red head? Maybe some one else has tried this, I will check my parts and see what I have in Black Head combat and Red head
Randy
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Ok, thanks to Tom & others (apologies ..names escape me at the moment) we have samples headed to me with details sorted as far as the big end of the rod & piston baffle etc. We'll take into consideration that these may potentially be run on high nitro fuel so the baffle and piston crown will be beefed up as compared to the stunt pistons we do.
There are some similarities with the 35, but not enough to make it a "dual purpose" kit.
I only have 18 units spoken for at this point, so unless more people put their name on the list I'll probably just do a run of 20 to 25 sets.
They will be to suit the 36X and 36X BB. It will include ABC piston/liner/bushed rod & pin.
It will take a few months so be patient guys.
Thanks to everyone that has given input and offered sample parts. It's been a good team effort so far.
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I would like to add my name to list for the Fox36BB P&L set with wrist pin. I have my original engine which was fun very little and has never been crashed or taken apart. For rebuild will need new gaskets and possibly would be good to replace the bearings. Concerned about availability of these parts.
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I would like to put an order in for 1 of your piston/liner sets for the 36X BB version.
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Brian put me down for two, Thanks.
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OK guys, you are added to the list. It looks like I need to increase numbers as we are up to 27 sets.
Brian
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I would need a payment method other than PayPal. What is available?
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Paypal is most convenient. Some guys get their friends with paypal to send the money.
Alternatives are things like Western Union but lots of fees involved that I would have to include in the price.
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Brian,
The 36X and 36X BB have the same Piston and Cylinder (old Fox part #36X04).
The case, Crank Shaft and Connecting Rods are different; but the Cylinders are the same. No Bearing Relief was needed on the 36X.. The 36X Mk I and II Combat Specials should not be considered as they just come apart (over optimized without the engineering or upgraded metallurgy). This part number is good from the original straight plug 36X in 1964 to the last one made. I have new parts if you need one to copy.
If you consider making them for the Mk 3, 4, 6 or 7, I also have clean examples.
Mike Stinson
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Brain,
Here is the Fox 36X Parts diagram. Mike Stinson
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Any info specific to bearings for the 36X BB version? If I'm going to install new piston / sleeve & pin I might need toreplace original bearings. Engine was stored with lots of oil but who knows how they survived after so many years - could open the engine and find they are pitted or rusted.
Also- what is availability of head gasket for a rebuild? I figure its a waste of time trying to contact Fox
Thanks
Lyle
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The bearing is a standard part, should be available anywhere, R8 if I remember correctly. Brian's ABC sets for stunt engines usually come with a small stack of head gaskets, if these don't it doesn't matter much the Fox 35 stunt head gasket drops right in the 36X.
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I can supply replacement head shims with the set. I usually only do this for the ST46 & 60. It's no problem.
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I don't know how you're going to get away with making this liner out of brass. Besides being too thin over all it's way too thin between the exhaust and transfer ports. I'm predicting allot of seized up engines. Hope I'm wrong.
MM
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Brian,
Please put me down for 2 sets including wrist pins and rods. Mike Stinson
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I don't know how you're going to get away with making this liner out of brass. Besides being too thin over all it's way too thin between the exhaust and transfer ports. I'm predicting allot of seized up engines. Hope I'm wrong
MM
The guys tell me the exh port in the liner is wider than the port in the case. We'll make the exh port in the liner a bit narrower to match which will give us a bit more strength. As for wall thickness I can't say till I receive the sample engine. Based on the photos above the wall thickness shouldn't be a problem.
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Actually if you make the exhaust port slightly smaller than the opening in the case it will produce allot more power. I would go .075" smaller on each side. It may seem funny to think of reducing a port for more power but, allot of raw fuel gets drawn out from the sides on those old cross flow engine designs. It would have the added benefit of making the sleeve stronger right at the sore spot.
MM
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I have an old brand new fox 36 rc engine does anyone know if that could be changed over for control line.
Steve
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Sure. If it's an X motor you can just leave the carb in and fly. (The 36X r/c has a glued in carb so it would be difficult to put in a straight venturi) If it is a later model 36, the carb is held in with set screws so you can just make up a venturi and replace the carb.
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Brian -
Aubrey here in South Bend, Indiana, USA. I would love to have a set of ST .35 stunt cylinders and pistol assemblies. Your OS 35 and ST 46 were first rate.
Cheers, Aubrey
PS - I know you are not making them now, but if you ever do. That also applies to the ST V60 light case.
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Brian -
Aubrey here in South Bend, Indiana, USA. I would love to have a set of ST .35 stunt cylinders and pistol assemblies. Your OS 35 and ST 46 were first rate.
Cheers, Aubrey
PS - I know you are not making them now, but if you ever do. That also applies to the ST V60 light case.
G'day Aubrey, I don't currently have a waiting list running for the ST35. Nobody has ever asked about them since we did the last batch approx. 5 years ago.
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Just a brief update guys.
I've received the sample engine and will get to measuring it up & drawing sketches.
B
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Measurements done, sketches drawn all ready for the machinist. Sorry I've been slow. I can't measure stuff very accurately on days my hands shake.
All input by you guys and others has been carefully taken into consideration. This without a doubt will be a performance upgrade :-)
Rods will be bushed, piston will suit 36X and 36XBB, piston baffle beefed up so you guys don't melt it, more bearing area for the pin etc. Head shims will be supplied too.
I can't wait to get these done and out to you guys and then hear the feedback.
There are 30 spoken for on the list and I'm doing a run of 35 sets.
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Brian, I have followed this many your other new P/C and rod efforts
If you ever do a run of Fox 36 MK 3/4/6, I am in for 4 sets as I have 4 MK 4s and 3 MK6s that I want to use well into the future
Fred
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I'd be happy to do those, but we need orders for 20 to get it off the ground Fred. We need to do a run of ST46 and ST60 to catch up first.
Brian, I have followed this many your other new P/C and rod efforts
If you ever do a run of Fox 36 MK 3/4/6, I am in for 4 sets as I have 4 MK 4s and 3 MK6s that I want to use well into the future
Fred
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I will take a set if there are any left.
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Dave, do you mean Fox 36X? I can add you to the list for when these are ready.
I will take a set if there are any left.
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yes 36x, sorry.
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No problem. The batch size is a few more than were on the list, so you're in luck.
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OK guys, I apologise for the delay (it's normal with me). The parts are all machined and we will have 5 more sets than orders so a few extra late people hopefully won't miss out.
I still have to do my final quality checks but as I get through them I will contact people starting at the top of the waiting list as I get them ready. I've been hospitalised recently for my spinal cord damage again and my medications increased accordingly. So I will be slow. I apologise in advance. I'll get through them as best I can as my condition allows but I will not compromise on quality!!.
On another note we've started on ST46 again. ;D
Brian
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I think I'm on the list if not please put me on the list.
Steve
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Yes Randy, that's the plan to do rods & pins.
I'm not particularly familiar with them. I did have one for a short while years back. So I'll be needing input from the guys that are intimate with them.
Hi Brian,
are you going to use oil holes in the rod ends?
I only ask because I believe they are detrimental on an overhung crank.
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I think I'm on the list if not please put me on the list.
Steve
Yes Steve, you are on the list.
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Hi Brian,
are you going to use oil holes in the rod ends?
I only ask because I believe they are detrimental on an overhung crank.
I remember we discussed the rods. I know we decided to bush both ends...but I can't remember what the consensus was for oil holes. I'd go with yes we probably agreed to go with oil holes.
We also made the exh port in the liner narrower (it was bigger than the aperture in the case) to stiffen the liner.
We also beefed up the piston baffle.
There were a couple of other small refinements that people requested.
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Has anyone else got one of these together and running yet? Mine came in last week. The machine work and quality of the parts is amazing as usual. I tore down an Ebay 36X BB that had some nice wrist pin grooves in the front and back of the liner and extremely soft compression and started cleaning it up for the conversion to ABC. A new $7 R8 ball bearing, and a considerable bit of time spent polishing the crank and it was ready for conversion. The Gardner ABC parts mostly dropped right in, the bottom end of the rod took a little coaxing onto the crank pin. Chances are Fox machined the pin on this particular engine on the big side of the tolerance. After I'd double checked the crank pin for burrs, the rod popped on with a firm push from a wood dowel.
I've run it a few times on the test stand, 7% nitro, 23% oil - castor/klotz blend. It turned an APC 10x4 at just under 16k rpm. After a couple heat cycles, I switched to an APC 9x6, on the same fuel it went 16.2k+. I suspect that like the other Bristunt ABC conversions it'll keep getting better with more run time. Right now I'm running one head gasket, no venturi restrictor, with backplate pressure. After it's been run a bit, I'll run some higher nitro fuel through it.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/bristunt36xabc.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290006.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290007.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290021.jpg)
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Guys, I'm part way through posting these out. I'm contacting everybody on the waiting list as I have them ready. Apologies for the long wait.
Brian
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The quality is well worth the wait. Six months from concept to an exceptional finished product doesn't seem bad at all. I can't say enough positive things about the Bristunt ABC conversions. This 36X ABC is one of the strongest running Fox combat engines in my stash.
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I must have missed it some place, but what is the price of the assembly?
thanks much
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Hi Brian,
are you going to use oil holes in the rod ends?
I only ask because I believe they are detrimental on an overhung crank.
How are rod oil holes bad? Every high performance Rossi/OS engine seems to have them.
MM
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The MK 1s were terrible motors, I blew up everyone I had, Duke sent new ones, The rods were sliced almost in half for lubing the pin, those destructed very quickly, many on run number one.
They blew up on Dukes fuel 10% nitro, I stopped using Missle Mist after the first motor grenade d . Duke fixed the design, and the second iterations were vastly better
Randy
This reminds me of the time when a fellow (Doc Passen?) was promoting a new Combat motor produced in Italy. Howard was known to have a couple. I called to see what he thought. "Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is they are slow. The good news is they blow up."
Dan
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Carl, the price depends on how many you order as the shipping gets shared. I'll send you a PM.
I must have missed it some place, but what is the price of the assembly?
thanks much
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Hi Brian
ALL of the FOX 36X engines were single bypass cross flow engines with baffles, there were NO Loop Charged ones (Dr Schnurle designed loop Charging) So they will all need baffles on them,
Should be a big increase in the life of the OLD Fox 36X with your ABC setups.
Are you making these with pins and rods ?
Regards
Randy
Randy, why would he need baffles? super tigers had flat top piston. .Then we could make new heads with the squish band heads. Oh no where do we stop. Oh well just a thought.
lYour bud,
Gordy
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How does the performance compare to stock Andrew?
Has anyone else got one of these together and running yet? Mine came in last week. The machine work and quality of the parts is amazing as usual. I tore down an Ebay 36X BB that had some nice wrist pin grooves in the front and back of the liner and extremely soft compression and started cleaning it up for the conversion to ABC. A new $7 R8 ball bearing, and a considerable bit of time spent polishing the crank and it was ready for conversion. The Gardner ABC parts mostly dropped right in, the bottom end of the rod took a little coaxing onto the crank pin. Chances are Fox machined the pin on this particular engine on the big side of the tolerance. After I'd double checked the crank pin for burrs, the rod popped on with a firm push from a wood dowel.
I've run it a few times on the test stand, 7% nitro, 23% oil - castor/klotz blend. It turned an APC 10x4 at just under 16k rpm. After a couple heat cycles, I switched to an APC 9x6, on the same fuel it went 16.2k+. I suspect that like the other Bristunt ABC conversions it'll keep getting better with more run time. Right now I'm running one head gasket, no venturi restrictor, with backplate pressure. After it's been run a bit, I'll run some higher nitro fuel through it.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/bristunt36xabc.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290006.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290007.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/P9290021.jpg)
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My gut impression is that the ABC is running a good bit stronger than stock, but I can't back it up with numbers. My other BB 36X might not be completely stock, but I'll see if I can get it on the stand with the same fuel and prop to see how it compares.
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In the interest of full disclosure... My "stock" 36XBB shows signs of having been cleaned up a bit, the web in the exhaust stack has been milled out, and the liner shows some handiwork around the exhaust port. I didn't perform any modifications that may be present, and I haven't had the engine apart to inspect it in detail. I did pop the back cover to check that the rod was free on the wrist pin, and to check the ball bearing for rust, both checked out ok. It has fair compression, but it's well broke in.
The "stock" engine is setup for use with a bladder, no restrictor, ST NVA, etc. I used the same 9x6 APC prop, Fox glowplug, 10% nitro 25% all castor Sig fuel since it's a steel piston engine. I only ran it for about a minute, as it's Sunday afternoon and I don't want to annoy the neighbors, the tach stayed fairly consistent around 15.4-15.6, the highest number was 15.8 which only lasted a second and couldn't be recreated.
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r26/fbodies/public%20model%20airplane%20stuff/PA050002.jpg)
So the difference between a high mileage Fox 36X BB retrofitted with a new ball bearing and ABC set, and a healthy, mildly massaged Fox 36X BB, is at least 600rpm. I fully expect that the ABC 36X will perform better once it's been run in a bit more. If I could have found an NOS Fox 36X piston/liner assembly, I'd still be breaking it in, and it might never perform as well the ABC.
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Very cool ;D It's good to see feedback like that. Thanks Andrew
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I've got a few spare sets left if anyone wants extras etc.
Brian
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NITRO AND FLIGHT TESTED AND THE RESULTS ARE SPECTACULAR !!! (PE**)
C.T. Schaefer transplanted the Gardner ABC piston & liner set into his LS Diamond case tuned 36xBB. Three flights with his Voodoo on 10% Nitro hit 116 MPH. The engine ran great and the piston fit was still tight after each run. Tom decided to up the Nitro to 40% which pushed the Voodoo to 120MPH !!! n~ After two flights of 40% Nitro there were no signs of engine wear and he used the same plug for all five flights!!!
How cool is that.
Al
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Randy, why would he need baffles? super tigers had flat top piston. .Then we could make new heads with the squish band heads. Oh no where do we stop. Oh well just a thought.
lYour bud,
Gordy
Super Tigers have directional porting. The liner on the Fox is too thin for tiger ports. Without a baffle the Fox would direct the charge right out the exhaust.
MM
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Al, that's awesome news. I'm really pleased this worked out so well.
Brian
NITRO AND FLIGHT TESTED AND THE RESULTS ARE SPECTACULAR !!! (PE**)
C.T. Schaefer transplanted the Gardner ABC piston & liner set into his LS Diamond case tuned 36xBB. Three flights with his Voodoo on 10% Nitro hit 116 MPH. The engine ran great and the piston fit was still tight after each run. Tom decided to up the Nitro to 40% which pushed the Voodoo to 120MPH !!! n~ After two flights of 40% Nitro there were no signs of engine wear and he used the same plug for all five flights!!!
How cool is that.
Al
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Randy, why would he need baffles? super tigers had flat top piston. .Then we could make new heads with the squish band heads. Oh no where do we stop. Oh well just a thought.
lYour bud,
Gordy
Hi Gordy some versions of the ST 35 had no baffle, these were a sort of rip-off on Loop charged engines, they were not single by pass, the were what ST called AirFoil porting. I think that may have violated the Doctors patent, I don't think the FOX case could use the twin ports like the ST35s did. And the sleeve would probably need to be thicker you you could direct the charge with the angled port.
Randy
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Down to 3 remaining sets left fellas.
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Setting the crank timing on my 36X BB. Now its ready for the ABC piston & liner. %^@
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Down to 3 remaining sets left fellas.
Hello Brian: Any sets left?
Cheers
Kelley Crozier
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I was just asking Brian if there were any more 36X sets left the other day, as I understand it they're sold out for now. It wouldn't hurt to send him an email and ask to be put on the list for the next batch, but it will probably be awhile before another run is made.
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I had a chance to run my ABC 36xBB today. Using 10% nitro 23 % all castor oil fuel for the first few break in runs. The engine was very easy to start, ran with no vibration and turned 16500 RPM with an APC 8x8 prop. I then tried 20% nitro 23% half castor & half synthetic oil fuel, the engine turned just over 17000 with the same prop. This is a 500 RPM increase over my best steel P&L 36xBB engine. The set up that I am running is one.010 head gasket, one.010 liner shim, bladder pressure, no venturi restrictor, Nova Rossi C4-S plug, new Boca rear bearing and changed the crank timing. I feel there is still more to get out of the engine by removing the head shim plus more nito because the plug still look like brand new after all the testing. I cant wait to put this engine in my Super Satan and wind it up. >:D
Al
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That's cool Al. I'm really pleased this project came out so well for you guys.
Yes they are sold out. If you guys like I can start another waiting list for more. But we need to get through a batch of ST51 & ST60 first.
Brian
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I've had a couple of guys email me about more of these sets.
I don't have enough people on the waiting list to do another run of them. So if anyone is interested email or PM me to get the numbers up so I can help you guys out.
Brian
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I have a Fox Rocket set up with a 36X P&C and head. It runs like a Fox Stunt.
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Hey Garf, we found there were variations in timing of the sleeves and given these were requested by the combat oriented guys we went with the higher timing numbers. I wouldn't expect these sets to give a quality "stunt run"
I have a Fox Rocket set up with a 36X P&C and head. It runs like a Fox Stunt.
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Has anyone else tried shoehorning one of these 36X ABC sets into any of the earlier Fox combat engines? In theory anyway they should practically drop-in, but I haven't really tested the theory as I don't usually have more than one engine disassembled at a time.
I have a Series III with soft compression, so my spare 36X ABC set came out of the drawer and I did a bit of poking around to see if it'd work in the Series III. The Series III has the picture window intake port in the liner, but otherwise the timing looks the same as the 36X ABC set, and the liner drops in the Series III case easily. The piston is a bit of a different story, the 36X ABC pistons have the top of the piston curving into the baffle vs the stock Series III and for that matter the stock 36X with it's straight inverted T baffle, more on this later. Also the wrist pin is beefed up a bit on the 36X ABC, it's larger than stock and larger than the Series III. Where I hit a stumbling block is that the bottom end of the 36X ABC rod is a bit tight on this Series III's crankshaft pin. I'm inclined to blame the snug fit on tolerance stacking, and Fox more than the ABC set. Fox rods are so sloppy that the stock rods both fit the Series III crank pin and neither is remotely tight. I think the ABC set's rod could be lapped to fit the Series III crack pin easily enough, but not sure I want to do that just yet. Just from a quick comparison, the Series III rod is a symmetrical design, with only the backplate wear pattern and the chamfer to differentiate front from back, while the 36X rod is offset a bit. Also I want to say the Series III has a longer crank pin, and the bottom bearing of the rod is a bit longer to match. Also the 36X rod looks just a hair longer, which shouldn't be a problem since the 36X liner is taller to raise the head. The reason I haven't gone ahead and lapped the ABC's rod to fit the Series III is that I'm not sure the top of the ABC piston will pair up with the Series III head. I don't want to modify the rod to fit the engine and then run into an issue with the head. I would imagine that a 36X head would probably bolt right on the Series III case, but I don't have an extra 36X head... The swap would work with stock Fox parts by just using the Series III rod with the 36X piston and pin, but due to the larger wrist pin in the ABC that's a no-go. So I weenie'd out and put the mostly worn out piston/liner back in the Series III and tucked it back in the engine locker.
I'll probably end up putting the spare 36X ABC setup in one of my better 36X engines, then use the stock take off 36X piston/cylinder in the Series III. I'm curious if anyone else has tried the 36X ABC set in anything other than a 36X. I would expect it'd drop right in a 35X or Blue Ribbon 35 since they're both closely related, but I haven't tried it. Spares for all the early Fox combat engines are virtually impossible to come by, so it'd be nice if these reproduction parts would retrofit. It's probably not worth the trouble to make ABC sets specific to the earlier engines since they have other inherent issues that the piston/liner/rod wouldn't address.
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The Rockets are kind of a half-ass Series I or II Combat Special. The early ones have tame timing, small intakes, etc and might run a bit more like a Fox stunt than the later engines that frequently have the removable venturi restrictor, larger ports, the picture window liner, etc. My red head Rocket 35 is a temperamental and shaky runner that thinks it's just a slightly hotter and heavier stunt 35, my silver head Rocket 35 with the picture window liner thinks it's a plain bearing, 1pc case Series III.
Assuming the 36X ABC setup would drop in the Rocket 35 case, and the Rocket had a large intake port in the crank and bored venturi or removed restrictor, I'd expect it'd run like an early Combat Special. However it'd still have the short plain bearing supporting the crank, which is egged out on most of the early Fox CS'es I've looked at. The crank in my Series II for example is so sloppy the bottom end of the rod is shiny from scrubbing the inside of the case at BDC.
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The 36x has a longer stroke so the liner is higher to accommodate that. You could put the 36x p/c into practically any fox 35 motor but it wouldn't line up right. Sure it will run but........ . Also there is more room in the 36x series for a heavier rod that wont clear in the earlier engines. A special ABC set for the combat 35's? The 'Blitz' article points out the weak point in the 35x and I remember, the series lll. When you lean on them a bit the crank gives way. TS
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How are rod oil holes bad? Every high performance Rossi/OS engine seems to have them.
MM
Because a hole will let the oil out part way along its travel.
The back and the front rod eyes are plenty big enough to supply an ingress and egress for oil and since all single hung cranks have directional flow (from flywheel or oil slinger to back plate) the addition of an early exit is indeed detrimental.
Perhaps not critical enough to cause failure but why do it?
The reason is simple, its a hangover from engineering lore that is in use with double overhung cranks.
They have two crank arms or oil slingers, thus are feed from both ends of the big end and so critically need an exit somewhere in the middle.
Oil is not forced into the 'oil' holes in the side of a rod eye due to massive G forces telling it otherwise, so they were never going to feed anything - they were always intended as exits and make no sense on a single overhung crank design.
I would content that Rossi and OS 'got away' with their use and have seen no data on their benefits but have heard proof that the reverse is true.
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The first production run of these naturally sold out.
I've had a couple of emails over the last couple of months from guys wanting them. I need more numbers to justify a run of these.
So if there is anybody else out there wanting them be sure to message me to build a list so I can make this happen again for the fellas.
Brian
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Brian I am bumping this up by responding
Back last month in another thread on breaking in a Fox 36X you said there was almost enough orders on a waiting list for another run of the Fox 36X ABC sets
I sent you an e-mail asking to be put on the list for the next run if you get enough interest
Fred
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Fred, well done on finding this thread, I was looking for it just a few days ago.
I have the numbers to make another production run happen.
If anyone wants a set let me know before I finalise numbers.
We are still finishing off the ST51 sets and these will follow.
Brian I am bumping this up by responding
Back last month in another thread on breaking in a Fox 36X you said there was almost enough orders on a waiting list for another run of the Fox 36X ABC sets
I sent you an e-mail asking to be put on the list for the next run if you get enough interest
Fred
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Private message sent
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Received & replied thanks Frank
Private message sent
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Bumping this up as I have received a few messages asking me about second run of the Fox 36 X ABC sets
Brain has said a second run is in the works after one of his other projects gets done
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Fred is right above. We are doing a second run of 20 sets which will start shortly. If anyone else wants a set get back to me quickly before machining starts & it's too late to accommodate extras.
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Bump up so we can ask Brian PUBLICLY on the status of this project
I am trying hard to remember all the 2015 needs and wants I had asked about here and on other forums
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Hi Fred, The next run of these has just started. So they will be a few months off. I have you on the list as requested.
Brian
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Thanks Brian
Hoping this progress on the Fox .36X stirs a few more commitments for the Fox .36 MK IV/VI project I started
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Did the Tiger .51 sets ever get finished ? b1
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Had a few delays John, they should be finished soon.
Did the Tiger .51 sets ever get finished ? b1
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Bumping this up as the ST51 project is concluding and this second run of Fox 36X should be starting
I have received more pre orders for the Fox MKIV MK VI series and will add that in the other thread
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What is status of the second run for these?
The LA 25 thread made me remember I had asked for tow of these Fox 36X sets
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I'm anticipating having these ready to go out at the end of May.
What is status of the second run for these?
The LA 25 thread made me remember I had asked for tow of these Fox 36X sets
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Thanks for the update sir
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put me down for 2 sets Bob
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Hi Bob,
At this point all 30 sets in this run are spoken for. I'll add you to the list though. If someone pulls out you'll get lucky mate.
Brain
put me down for 2 sets Bob
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The .25 and .46 threads made me remember this project
Anticipated second run around end of May
Just seeking an up date
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Still doing finishing touches. A bit behind schedule. Not far off now.
The .25 and .46 threads made me remember this project
Anticipated second run around end of May
Just seeking an up date
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I'm in the process of notifying people on the waiting list that I will be shipping these out in the coming weeks.
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These are ready to ship and I've started packaging. All that have paid will be getting shipped by the end of the week. There are some yet to pay but I expect nats prep has them busy.
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Brian :
My 36xBB runs very well with your P/L/R setup. Fabulous machine work.
So far, a few, short duration bench runs using 10% nitro/ 25% castor followed by several flights mounted on my Scrambler using 10% nitro and a 22% equal castor/syn blend. Needle not fully peaked just yet, although I'm confident that it could've been.
I'm getting close to feeding it more nitro- maybe next time out.
All in all, a really neat setup.
Frank
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25% nitro last eve. We're starting to pick up the pace. 35% next time. Still well behind my neighbors who are feeding theirs 50%.
Yowsa ! ~^
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Hi Brian,
Put me down for 5 sets of the Fox 36x BB. This engine has the baffle on top of the piston. The 36x BB has a small relief on the piston to clear the rear bearing in the case. Care has to taking in not making to relief to wide to pervent sub piston induction. I think the baffle should be made stronger something like the K&B 40 because the old piston is made of steel and some of us like to run 40% nitro to hear it crackle. This piston and liner set would work in the needle bearing engines with no mods. You could make a FOX SUPER DUPER STUNT by putting it into a fox 35 stunt by changing the rod & head. The new liner would also fit the 36 shiney case but I think the 36x has a thicker rim at the top of the liner and would give you more head clearance so you would have to do some checking. Motorman is right, the needle bearing crank is slightly larger in diameter than the BB but the crank pin is the same.
Al
I have a NIB fox SUPERSTUNT and I have know ideal what’s in it except it has a ABC piston and liner and Hemihead with stuffer backplate is that all there is or is something else different? Is that what Fox in the day called there SS
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The factory Fox 35 Super Stunt that I know of was a steel piston & liner which was a higher timed with larger intake and exhaust ports. I never ran a Super Sunt, but our local Fox 35 Stunt expert prefers the original timing. Fox did make a stock timed ABC set that's a good runner. I currently use it to power my Flight Streak and can complete the pattern with only 3oz of fuel with No Burp (can only fit a small tank on the Streak) using a venturi restrictor.
Post a photo of the engine and the box it came in would help ID the engine.
Al
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I am not sure how to post pictures please give instructions thanks
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Bummer can’t do it and I would really like to find out what I have
How about pm with email?
On the box it’s hard to see the numbers on the gold sticker but I think it
S5017 Fox Super Stunt white lable black box has a brass liner stuffer back plt and Hemihead
Hey Al I sent a private message to you.