Fox 35 Stunt

[Motorman]

Officially out of stock and out of production at the Fox factory. No new news but, should I be buying a few of these to sell for ridiculous prices in future or will this power plant quickly fade into obscurity?

MM

[Dan McEntee]

  They probably built 20 times more Fox .35s than McCoy built .35 Red Heads, and there is usually no trouble finding a McCoy when you want one, so I would think that speculating of the value of any Fox engine going up some what of a long shot. I've got enough to keep me and mine happy and in parts. It's like Cox .049s, think of how many were made over the last 50 years or so. And most of them are still tucked away in boxes and drawers. Definately no shortage of any kind of power plants these days.
 Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[55chevr]

Dan --- I would think the order is more like 200 times then 20 .... I cannot understand the fascination with McCoy engines.  I had 2 when I was a kid and they were both junk.  I thought it was because they were Testor's McCoys but a lot of flyers I have spoken with recently had the same experience.  Haerd starting and unreliable performance.  When I graduated to Fox I found them superior in every way.

[EddyR]

Yes buy 100 and let us know how that works out for you

[Dwayne]

Officially out of stock and out of production at the Fox factory. No new news but, should I be buying a few of these to sell for ridiculous prices in future or will this power plant quickly fade into obscurity?
MM

Niether, there are so many of these out there they will be around for a very long time. I have 6, two never run.

[Tim Wescott]

All you need is the crankcase, head, and the adapter to attach an extended-shaft eFlight 25 to the back.

[Douglas Ames]

All you need is the crankcase, head, and the adapter to attach an extended-shaft eFlight 25 to the back.

Don't forget to stick a baseball card in the prop for that "Fox .35" sound.

[Steve Helmick]

Don't forget to stick a baseball card in the prop for that "Fox .35" sound.

Ah, but how do you get it to 'burp' on the outsides?    Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Ah, but how do you get it to 'burp' on the outsides?    Steve

You could maybe do something with a mercury tilt switch, but the EPA would be down on you for sure.

[Motorman]

Yes buy 100 and let us know how that works out for you

Maybe I'll get one good one out of it.


MM

[Brett Buck]

Ah, but how do you get it to 'burp' on the outsides?    Steve

   Lodge a spruce stick in the armature?

   Brett

[Ron Cribbs]

Not sure how to incorporate a Thunderbolt RC Long into an electrickery motor, but that's what cures the burp on a Fox .35

[Dennis Moritz]

Surrender. Cowards all of you. 

[Steve Helmick]

I'm waiting for the best possible news out of Fox Mfg....that they have stopped production of their crappy glowplugs!  Steve

[Brett Buck]

Not sure how to incorporate a Thunderbolt RC Long into an electrickery motor, but that's what cures the burp on a Fox .35

   No it doesn't. The root cause is gas velocity in the bypass, the solution is to increase it by packing the bypass.

   Brett

[Ron Cribbs]

  No it doesn't. The root cause is gas velocity in the bypass, the solution is to increase it by packing the bypass.

   Brett

Brett, I agree the bypass is too large. However I primarily run Foxes and I have found that using a Thunderbolt plug with GMA 10/22 along with a properly plumbed tank, mounted properly and set at the correct height has completely cured my burping issues.

That has been my experience anyway. Others may differ.

I can't take credit for it though. Ken Cook turned me onto the fix and it's the combo that the Philly Flyers use.

Edit: I agree that the "burp" does exist Brett and I know you have much more experience than myself. I just want folks to know it is possible to get a good run out of a Fox .35 of you are willing to spend a little time to get it right. Another option is to have Lew Woolard go through it. I've had a couple done by him .35's and 40's and they are a dream to fly with.

Sorry for the hijack!!!

[Dan McEntee]

   I have to say that I never experienced the "Fox Burp" on any of my personal models either. When I got started in this, I learned early on about using a 10-5 prop and speeding up the RPM , and tank position like Ron mentions, and was turned on to Glow Devil R/C long plugs at the same time. Just lucky I guess. A flying buddy here in St. Louis, Bob Arata, had a full fuse Flite Streak with an inverted Fox.35 and it would sound like it completely shut off on outside squares during the same time period, but it would always come back to life, and he used the "traditional" Fox .35 set up with a 10-6 Top Flite prop. Maybe a little higher RPM makes for a little more flow? I don't currently have anything with a Fox on it right now, and need to correct that.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Randy Cuberly]

   I have to say that I never experienced the "Fox Burp" on any of my personal models either. When I got started in this, I learned early on about using a 10-5 prop and speeding up the RPM , and tank position like Ron mentions, and was turned on to Glow Devil R/C long plugs at the same time. Just lucky I guess. A flying buddy here in St. Louis, Bob Arata, had a full fuse Flite Streak with an inverted Fox.35 and it would sound like it completely shut off on outside squares during the same time period, but it would always come back to life, and he used the "traditional" Fox .35 set up with a 10-6 Top Flite prop. Maybe a little higher RPM makes for a little more flow? I don't currently have anything with a Fox on it right now, and need to correct that.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Hey Dan,
If you feel "Left Out" on the Fox burp situation I would be happy to sell you 4 or 5 of them that are garanteed to burp on a profile...come with a money back garantee!

I on the other hand I have never had one on a profile that didn't burp until I put the famous "spruce stick" in the bypass!

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

   Lodge a spruce stick in the armature?

   Brett

Hey Brett...Now that's really funny!  Can you supply drawings? 

Randy Cuberly

[Bart Klapinski]

    I found it interesting about the "McCoy" ragging. I never had a bad one as I made sure the piston-to-sleeve and the crank shaft-to- case bushing fits were good. 25% castor and 12% nitro made them run just fine. I ran them exclusively from 1960 through 1967 and I flew a lot of flights----about 15 to 30 flights a week. I won the NATS with a McCoy Red Head .40----but then got drafted into the military. They were great engines that people could afford.

                   Cheers,
                                Bart

[55chevr]

I recall that the price was $3.77 for a McCoy and $7.29 for a Fox 35.  Like twice the price.  McCoy's just didn't demonstrate any durability.  I know that the engines I had were boxed with Testors label. That might have been the difference in production and QA. If you got good service you were fortunate.  I did not have the same experience.   0 for 2 ... 20 flights each was their service life.  I always used K&B 500 fuel.  I am sure I overheated them running lean but I treated the Fox the same way and it accepted the mishandling.

[Dave_Trible]

I too also always preferred the McCoy, the center plug versions.  The slant plug .35 version could be a problem.  They have more power than the Fox, no burp, but sure do need tons of oil and care not to run too lean.  I have a pastel of them now and use nothing less than 28% oil.  If you have a newish one now that fits well and you run it on 50/50 castor/ synthetic it will go strong for a long time.  I remember as a kid the Fox was nearly three times more expensive than the McCoy.  It was thought that you could buy two Macs and still be ahead of the Fox in power and lifespan.  I don't know the oil content of that K&B 500 but I'm thinking it was too light on oil for these old rattle bucket engines.  I just broke in a new Series 21 .40 and it is sweet.  The Dykes ring made these run like the old ones but last much longer.  Invest in Foxes?  Sure if they are new and you really plan on flying them, or passing on to a new generation of flyers.  I doubt they will ever have much monetary value.  Way to common and still quite available.

Dave

[Mike Lauerman]

All my McCoys were Redheads, .35s. Bought my first one from a kid that crashed his Ringmaster second flight. Gave him a buck for the crashed Ringer, and another buck and a half for the engine.
Bought 2 more McCoy .35s, built a Sterling profile Mustang, rebuilt the Ringer, and began flying. (this was 1955)

My other McCoy .35 went on a Super Ringmaster my bud gave up on, great combo. Never any trouble with McCoys, first flip start after break in, ran strong on Francisco Racing fuel.
My Mom bought me a new K&B Torpedo .35, I put it on my new Half Fast III... Way faster than my McCoys...
Tommy Young had a new Fox .35. Thought he'd never get it broken in. Hated that Fox. But I've had a bunch of 'em since, the 'burp' was noted.

[Motorman]

And we're back. Yes there were millions made but they're not available for purchase new, they're worn out by now. I consider how hard it is to find a NIB 40th anniversary and think the 50th/60th will dry up in a few years. How many engines do you think vendors keep in stock?


MM   

[Ron Cribbs]

And we're back. Yes there were millions made but they're not available for purchase new, they're worn out by now. I consider how hard it is to find a NIB 40th anniversary and think the 50th/60th will dry up in a few years. How many engines do you think vendors keep in stock?


MM   

I visit hobby shops all over the US. I have yet to see one Fox .35 in stock. Usually most carry the OS line and sometimes Evo engines, Heli engines and Car engines. Never CL, although I did see some Brodak stuff in Mountain Home Idaho.

If you can find some Fox .35's or any Fox engines for a good price it may be wise to grab them. If you do I will surely hit you up in the near future.

[Daniel_Munro]

And we're back. Yes there were millions made but they're not available for purchase new, they're worn out by now. I consider how hard it is to find a NIB 40th anniversary and think the 50th/60th will dry up in a few years. How many engines do you think vendors keep in stock?


MM   

Got my hands on a NIB 40th anniversary model recently. It's had a few runs on the bench now and it's real nice. I've got an old Fox 35 and 29 too which run like champs.

Busy building a Miss BJ for one of the 35s and will build either a Nobler or Mustunt for the other, shame the factory no longer producing as I wanted to add another 1 or 2 to my collection.

[Dave_Trible]

And we're back. Yes there were millions made but they're not available for purchase new, they're worn out by now. I consider how hard it is to find a NIB 40th anniversary and think the 50th/60th will dry up in a few years. How many engines do you think vendors keep in stock?


MM   

There are several new ones on EBay right now.  They pop up there regularly.

[Motorman]

There are several new ones on EBay right now.  They pop up there regularly.

you'll have to link me. I searched and found one well use 40th with the muffler lugs cut off.

[Dave_Trible]

As a search catagory put 'model airplane engines Fox'.  I'm not sure if you are looking for a new Fox .35 or specifically a 40th anniversary version.  That may harder if it matters somehow.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

And we're back. Yes there were millions made but they're not available for purchase new, they're worn out by now. I consider how hard it is to find a NIB 40th anniversary and think the 50th/60th will dry up in a few years. How many engines do you think vendors keep in stock?


MM   

     You are looking in the wrong places. How many do you think have been bought and just put away? Maybe even forgotten about. Lots of people, me included, buy things "for a rainy day someday". They are out there, you just need to keep your eyes open and be ready to act when they present themselves. Swap meets, yard sales, Craig's List, all sorts of places.

     Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dennis Moritz]

I wonder how Dan Banjok managed to fly a flapless wonder to a 2nd place finish in Classic at the last Brodak. A 542 score. Many top competitors. His very purdy, traditionally finished, Galloping Comedian, powered by a Fox 35. Stock. No high zoot this or that. No wooden coffee stirrers jammed into a port. The engine running on 22%50/50/5%. As it has for years.

[Brett Buck]

I wonder how Dan Banjok managed to fly a flapless wonder to a 2nd place finish in Classic at the last Brodak. A 542 score. Many top competitors. His very purdy, traditionally finished, Galloping Comedian, powered by a Fox 35. Stock. No high zoot this or that. No wooden coffee stirrers jammed into a port.

   The engine is not sideways in a Galloping Comedian, it is upright. Lots of people managed to get them to run right that way. But thanks for playing!

    Brett

[Dennis Moritz]

And what about the Ringmasters Dan and others have flown successfully in Old Time and Classic. I have a fuel soaked relic Ringer. a Philly Flyer Plane, with it's contest record written with magic marker on it multiple color monokote wings. Eleven plus wins or places in Expert Old Time. Most at the Garden State Circle Burners Contests. Where the Old Time event originated. Dan has scored very well in Classic Contests flying a Fox 35 Ringer, when other options were unavailable to him. Considering the limitations of Ringmasters the Fox 35s must be working effectively.

[Dennis Moritz]

Yeah. I am playing. Starbucks has not slapped my fingers yet for filching their excellent useful wooden sticks. Throw away epoxy stirrers. Work very well. Just right on the flexibility/rigidity spectrum.

[Dennis Moritz]

I hate having the last word.

[Dane Martin]

a ringmaster with a fox 35 is the best CL combination since Dr. pepper and trout....
how's that Dennis?

[Steve Helmick]

Yeah. I am playing. Starbucks has not slapped my fingers yet for filching their excellent useful wooden sticks. Throw away epoxy stirrers. Work very well. Just right on the flexibility/rigidity spectrum.

For what Starbutts charges for their products, they should throw in a dozen "excellent useful wooden sticks" without a complaint.  Did I mention that I don't drink coffee? I do like a good Mocha, but not at Starbutt's prices. Howard should own stock.  Steve

[Motorman]

Dan has scored very well in Classic Contests flying a Fox 35 Ringer, when other options were unavailable to him. Considering the limitations of Ringmasters the Fox 35s must be working effectively.

IDK why don't you ask him and tell us because most don't do that.

MM

[Dennis Moritz]

It's not always deep. Piston/cylinder fit, if engine is too tight there are problems. Sometimes requiring lapping. Running engine in a happy rpm range. Functional plumbing. We use Powermaster %5 or %10, 22%, 50/50 fuel. Issues occur with later Foxes due to machining inconsistencies. Not a design issue. A quality control issue. A person familiar with Foxes can ID that. And fix it. Dan thinks most of the issues with Foxes come from bad piston/cylinder (over tight) fits. Making break in difficult and frustrating. Rod stress and crank stress an unhappy secondary effect.

The cases are a thin casting. This can create issues if the head bolts are tightened unevenly. I have seen Foxes where the cylinders were out of round enough to need lapping in.

Many times with profiles it's bad vibes. The engine setting up an exaggerated vibration resonance with the fues structure. Many ways to attack this. Unfortunately, solutions that work are usually tailored to a specific model/engine. No universal single answer. Start with aluminum plates under engine. I have even seen steel plates used. (Dan uses them in a Foxberg racer.) Cinch engine mounting bolts as tight as possible. Provide a way on the back side of the profile to securely mount nuts, so they can be tightened hard. If using uniflo, see if engine runs better without uniflo. Uniflo can exacerbate vibration issues.

And so on.

In the past I have called Fox 35s a hobby in themselves. If you have a balky Fox find Dan or a Philly Flyer into Foxes. We show up at Garden State, Brodak , Huntersville, Brad Smith's contest, the Nats and elsewhere.  

[Dennis Moritz]

Ringmasters usually fly well, if they're straight and not too heavy. Don't have to be super light. 30 ounces ok. It's a tradition in the Philly Flyers to put Fox 35s on them. If you have a decent running Fox, most of them are, you're fine. If they burp and blat, screw in the needle. Use a good plug. Thunderbolt RCs work. You want a hot plug. Like I said, we run Powermaster 50/50 22%, 5% or 10%. Don't try flying the Ringer slow. If you are mushing around in maneuvers. Turn in the needle. You're flying too slow. I have seen these planes powered by LA25s, LA40s, even FP40s. All of them can be tuned to work. Use a small venturi with an FP40 and a tongue muffler. Get weight off the front. It's possible to fit a decent sized chicken hopper behind the 40s. May not be enough for a full pattern. But you can have fun and fly Old Time. The Old Time pattern, with it's mostly wide curving maneuvers, is not a difficult challenge for a good flying Ringer.

Like any model the Ringmasters perform best at a certain speed. Keep the speed up. Forget about the idealized blubbery rich, 2-4 break.

Dan, of course, is an excellent and versatile flier. Not stuck on a single plane design or particular approach to our hobby. In fact he's just the opposite. Always intrigued by something different. Giant Flight Streak, Pulse Jet Stunter (does all the maneuvers in the pattern), pulse jet aluminum bird, double sized bi-slop, .010 powered something or other and other stuff. Is he a top five NATS finisher, not yet, but he's knocked on the door with his own break the mold Vista. A big fat airfoil, nearly straight wing original, that departs in many ways from current norms. Dan's ability to fly a Fox 35 powered Ringmaster in Classic against good competition is possible in part, because of his enthusiasms. He loves flying these birds and has flown them a lot. Time at the handle. Same with his Galloping Comedian. Lots of sorting out time. Handle time. Engine tuning time. A labor of fun.

[BrianW517]

a ringmaster with a fox 35 is the best CL combination since Dr. pepper and trout....
how's that Dennis?

I flew a couple hundred flights with my Fox .35 Stunt in my S-1 Ringmaster, back in the early sixty's before I wore it out. I tried using the McCoy Red Head .35 and they lasted about half as long, using the same fuel mixture as used in the Fox. The Fox's cost almost twice as much $$$$ money as the McCoy. I solved the Fox Burp with a fudge cycle stick in the bypass port. The early McCoy & Fox's didn't run well with mufflers. I've never had any Fox Burps with the Anniversary Addition Fox .35 Stunt Motors, they run great with Fox Muffler's, Both silencer & tongue designs. I love my Fox .35 motors, even though they take longer to break in than did the McCoy. 

[Daniel_Munro]

This weekend I flew the new Miss BJ with an old Fox 35 for power. I hate to admit but in my 20 years of control line flying I'd never flown a plane with a Fox 35. Been an OS and a PAW diesel man all those years.

Anyhow my first experience was a good one, that old Fox from many decades ago pulls the Miss BJ with absolute authority. 4/2 breaks beautifully. Even had many 1 flick starts over the weekend.

I don't know the weight of the Miss BJ as I've not weighed it, but it's running a 3.5oz Brodak uniflow tank, 10x6 Top Flite Super M wood prop, du bro tongue muffler, Hobbyking "hot" plug, fuel is a home brew of 25% castor 7.5% nitro.

I wish I'd discovered the wonderful Fox 35 a long time ago, I am now a big fan and can't wait to build a model for my NIB 40th anniversary model.  

[Ron Cribbs]

Welcome to the dark side...

They have their quirks, but once worked around they are delightful.