Author Topic: seeking info "Lilliputian" by Walter A. Musciano (Read 2974 times)

Gregory Hammond · « **on:** January 06, 2021, 11:05:31 PM »

On page 118 of Walter's book, Building and Flying Control-line MODEL AIRPLANES, published by HALE in approx 1976

On the bottom half of that page is a model called the Lilliputian, for 049 power
I can find no extra information or plan for this model

I was wondering if anyone on this forum can help?

Regards
Greg

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2021, 09:09:18 PM »

Hi Greg;
Do you have this book? Can you post a photo of the cover, or email one to me? I'll PM my email address to you. I have been looking in my library, and I have the Musciano book " Building and Flying Scale Model Airplanes, in several different vintages. I may be looking for the wrong book, and have a lot of shelves!! Are you sure of the title and it was published by Walter Musciano?

Thanks a lot,
Dan McEntee

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2021, 09:24:42 PM »

Never mind, I took another look and found it, but I have it in an earlier book titled "Building and Flying Model Airplanes," no mention of control line in the title, but it is on page 118. Not a bad looking airplane until you get to the nose!! Looks like Walter designed it from the tail forward and then kind of ran out of steam at the nose!! I am not familiar with it though, and it doesn't ring any bells of anything I ever saw in a model magazine. He did have a few models published in Mechanics Illustrated, but I don't know if there are any listings for that magazine. Is there a bibliography of all the designs Walter published? Prolific doesn't begin to describe the way he used to crank them out!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2021, 11:33:29 PM »

I spoke with and corresponded with Walt some years ago and he sent a list of plans he had available then, as well as some he designed but no longer had copies of. It's not complete by any means. Probably like many here, I spent hours and hours browsing his books as a teen.

I don't recall the subject design at all and don't find it listed on any of the indices I have.

Dennis

PS: Folks like Jim Dodson and Currell Pattie may have more info ...

Trostle · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2021, 12:25:02 AM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on January 07, 2021, 09:24:42 PM

(Clip)

Is there a bibliography of all the designs Walter published? Prolific doesn't begin to describe the way he used to crank them out!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

I have the autobiography by Walter Musciano published in the KAPA Kollector newsletter, Jun 1997. (KAPA was Kits and Plans Antiquitous.) That article lists the models that Musciano designed that were published and/or made into kits. There are hundreds including those published in Model Airplane News, Air Trails, Flying Models, RC Modeler, American Modeler, Junior American Modeler, Mechanix Illustrated, Electronix Illustrated, Sport Modeler, Aeromodeller and some articles in a French publication. Also listed are the 26 books he wrote and published. He listed the designs that were in kits including Scientific, Aristocraft Models, Consolidated Models, and Berkeley.

Interesting that the listing does not show in any for the Lilliputian from his book on Building and Flying Control-line Model Airplanes. I have several of Musciano's books and some have his plans for models that were not published in the magazines or were produced as kits or listed anywhere in the KAPA article. His story is remarkable. He grew up on the streets of New York, doing what he could for his blind mother before she died just before his eighth birthday. It could be said that he had a challenging childhood. His autobiography in the KAPA newsletter is 44 pages which included many drawings and photographs.

Keith

Gregory Hammond · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2021, 02:01:07 AM »

Thanks to everyone for the replies!

Walter had a really rough childhood, I read his autobiography and was stunned with his early life!
Designing and building model airplanes seemed to have kept him sane during great hardship.

Lilliputian seems to have fallen through the cracks, but I like the shape of it... even the nose

Thanks AirClassics for the PDF list of Walters models.. where did he find the time!! And published books!

A truly remarkable individual.

Gregory Hammond · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2021, 02:25:15 AM »

Here is the photo scanned from the book of the 049 Lilliputian... I think its cute

afml · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2021, 09:44:09 AM »

Sorry Greg,
I believe the issue of the book you have has an error in its publication of the "Lilliputian".
On page 56 of the September 1949 issue of Air Trails is this pictured model by Mr. Musciano.
It is called the "Cub Controller", and is powered by......
You guessed it......
A Herkimer "O.K. Cub" engine.
Drawing of the plans are included in the article.
Also included in that issue is an story/article of the original Veco "Chief".
Have spoken to Mr. Musciano several times about his 'un-named' C/L stunt airplane he designed.
But that's another story for another time.
Good luck with your quest & "Tight Lines!"

Wes

Gregory Hammond · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2021, 10:07:06 AM »

Mister afml.. you are the man!!
Thank you for piecing this little mystery together for me!

A quick internet search and found the plan

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5562

Thanks to everyone for their input and help regarding this little airplane,
I still think its rather cute

regards
Greg

GallopingGhostler · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2021, 11:36:53 AM »

The Cub Controller is a sharp looking little plane. I was surprised that the wing area is only 90 sq. in. I thought it would be more. Don't know much about the vintage classification, but appears to be vintage CL eligible if half-A is allowed. Love the easy to build look of it. Doubling the size giving it 360 sq. in. wing area and putting say a legacy .19 or sport Schneurle .15 would make for a fun flyer.

I really like it!

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2021, 08:03:23 PM »

Quote from: afml on January 08, 2021, 09:44:09 AM

Sorry Greg,
I believe the issue of the book you have has an error in its publication of the "Lilliputian".
On page 56 of the September 1949 issue of Air Trails is this pictured model by Mr. Musciano.
It is called the "Cub Controller", and is powered by......
You guessed it......
A Herkimer "O.K. Cub" engine.
Drawing of the plans are included in the article.
Also included in that issue is an story/article of the original Veco "Chief".
Have spoken to Mr. Musciano several times about his 'un-named' C/L stunt airplane he designed.
But that's another story for another time.
Good luck with your quest & "Tight Lines!"
Wes

Wes, are you referring to the Musciano Challenger?

Dennis

944_Jim · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2021, 10:11:34 PM »

Mr. Dennis,
Please give us the "other story." I love the Musciano Challenger. While I can't afford the real estate his 44" model would need, I bought a really clean Scientific/Black Hawk Models clone Challenger (34" WS) from Dalton Hammett about 20 months ago.

I could use that story to motivate me to start the kit. Would you like to give up the story if I started a build thread?
TIA

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2021, 11:17:42 PM »

Quote from: 944_Jim on January 08, 2021, 10:11:34 PM

Mr. Dennis,
Please give us the "other story." I love the Musciano Challenger. While I can't afford the real estate his 44" model would need, I bought a really clean Scientific/Black Hawk Models clone Challenger (34" WS) from Dalton Hammett about 20 months ago.

I could use that story to motivate me to start the kit. Would you like to give up the story if I started a build thread?
TIA

Jim, I think you meant to ask afml (Wes) to share that story. I wanna hear it too - Wes, we're all ears!

Dennis

Quote from: afml on January 08, 2021, 09:44:09 AM

Also included in that issue is an story/article of the original Veco "Chief".
Have spoken to Mr. Musciano several times about his 'un-named' C/L stunt airplane he designed.
But that's another story for another time.
Good luck with your quest & "Tight Lines!"
Wes

afml · « **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2021, 12:46:34 AM »

OK....Here goes...

Once upon a time, I was looking through a book by Walter A. Musciano entitled "Building and Flying Model Airplanes".
Have gone through this book many times and each time I reached pages #108 & #109 of Chapter Six, something just didn't look right.
Especially when reading through the chapter and looking at the pictures of the "Challenger" on Page #110 and #114.
Dennis posted a picture that was on Page #106, but the plans on #108 & #109 just didn't add up.

So I called Mr. Musciano and inquired about my interest between the plans and the pictures. I introduced myself and said which book I was reading to which he replied, "Which version?"
My book had a copyright of 1972. At that time I didn't know the scope and far reaching of Mr Musciano's involvement in the hobby. What a truly AWESOME person! The call lasted a little over two hours!

The "Challenger" he did for Scientific Models and later kitted by Black Hawk Models, had a 34" wingspan. The plans in the book measure out to a little over 44" wingspan. He mentioned that he had a few sets of plans of that design and if I would like to have a set. When I inquired about the name of the airplane, he said it had no name. The plans arrived with a hand written letter describing the plane and that it was designed in the early 60's. Will seek out the letter and plans in my 'plan stash' and report back.

Until then......
STAY SAFE! STAY WELL!
And "Tight Lines!"

Wes

afml · « **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2021, 01:05:24 AM »

The text in Chapter Six, Page #123, did mention the plane was flown on .016 diameter lines that were 65' long.
Yea...I know...
Get busy and locate those plans & letter!

"Tight Lines!"

Wes

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2021, 01:42:14 AM »

Quote from: afml on January 09, 2021, 01:05:24 AM

The text in Chapter Six, Page #123, did mention the plane was flown on .016 diameter lines that were 65' long.
Yea...I know...
Get busy and locate those plans & letter!
"Tight Lines!"
Wes

Thanks Wes, good stuff!

Dennis

944_Jim · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2021, 07:05:15 AM »

Sorry Dennis AND Wes. I visit here on a smart phone, so I sometimes slip a bit as I slide up and down a thread.

Mr. Wes,
That is an amazing story! I always loved the plane. I still remember being about 10 years old, sitting on the floor of the Children's section of the local library reading the very same book. Doesn't it also have the F-82 Mustang log plans/model too? I seem to remember so.

When I returned to the hobby back in 2015, I discovered BHM and DCP Models by contacting a YouTube poster about her Sterling P-38. We talked for an hour or so shortly there-after. Then I discovered Outerzone, HPA, and AeroFred.

While visiting the BHM website, I was still in "restore childhood Cox engine, fit to simple kit" mode. I had an agenda to try to bring my boys in. But there was that Red and White Challenger! I didn't know at the time that Scientific once existed, nor that it wasn't a direct copy of the larger plane. But I was hooked, and swore to myself that if I ever moved up from my little engines, then I wanted that kit. I did buy three 1/2A kits by BHM. By the time I was ready to purchase the Challenger, BHM had sold, then closed. Aaargh!

Then Dalton Hammett offered his for sale. Oh boy, I had another crack at getting the kit!

Since then, I also discovered my love of plans. With the three big plans sharing sites above, I found another side-hobby that takes up practically zero space...collecting plans. So I started by pulling down plans. I initially grabbed ones I hoped to build. Then I learned how to scan plans in sections and digitally stitch them together into one PDF. And then as part of giving back, I started handing submissions to OZ.
The Challenger was my first successful set, complete with parts tracings from the BHM kit. While the parts and scan are accurate 1:1 copies, the plan did have a bit of wavyness on the stitched seams...certainly good enough to build from! I couldn't stand the idea that once a kit was built, the plans are trash. While tracing parts and scanning them is easy, the effort to fold a plan into small tiles with 20% overlap (best/largest sections for me, my scanner and stitching software) was too time-consuming to apply to every kit I had.
I think I completed the Challenger set about 18 months ago. I did note that the BHM plan looks to be a Scientific plan that was copied with the BHM contact info over the Scientific branding in the lower right corner.

I changed jobs in early 2020 and found that the place had a plotter and wide-format scanner. Now I had all the tools I needed for scratch building and copying big plans. Last week I scanned the BHM Challenger as one full size sheet. Wow, that was easy! That latest, much better scan complete with parts will be submitted to OZ this weekend. Mr. Dalton has since sent six or eight plans for me to scan, along with a Veco Tom Tom clone kit. The Tom Tom was toughest, as the paper is old and sepia-toned. They were all done over Christmas-break, and will also go to OZ.

I need to learn AutoCad so I can start scanning the woods, and digitally tracing the parts. Then I need to learn how to use a gifted CNC milling machine. But all that is another thread.

Thanks guys for keeping this wonderful hobby going!

John Skukalek · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2021, 10:48:43 AM »

This is fabulous information for me. I have been searching for information on the "unnamed 44 inch Challeger" for 20 years. My Dad built one when I was a little kid and its etched into my memory and larger than life. Has anyone seen/flown one? Thanks

944_Jim · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2021, 04:44:47 PM »

Mr. John,
Shoot me a PM with email address and I'll forward the full-size tracings and plans for the Scientific/BHM plansheet. iSTR I even took the 1/4 size overhead shot and blew up the wing to full size. Otherwise, it is just a typical straight wing with fixed triangle trailing edges.

My shop is an unheated side closet in the garage. I doubt I'll start the build until March. My plan is to build around a Cox .15 Medallion or Norvel Big Mig .15. I'd love to do a separate yet parallel build thread.

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2021, 07:27:05 PM »

Quote from: John Skukalek on January 09, 2021, 10:48:43 AM

This is fabulous information for me. I have been searching for information on the "unnamed 44 inch Challeger" for 20 years. My Dad built one when I was a little kid and its etched into my memory and larger than life. Has anyone seen/flown one? Thanks

Plans for the 44" Challenger are available on Outerzone. I believe the construction article is too.

Dennis

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2021, 07:27:57 PM »

Sheet 2 -

Jay · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2021, 07:49:01 PM »

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Flying-Control-line-Model-Airplanes/dp/0709153198

GallopingGhostler · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2021, 10:21:07 PM »

That price is kind of high, unless it is one of those you must have it no matter the cost. I've bought used books through https://www.abebooks.com/. There is more opportunity to find what you are looking for, and you might be able to find what you are looking for, for a fraction of the cost of that book.

John Skukalek · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2021, 07:27:07 AM »

Dennis, thank you for posting the plans.

John Park · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2021, 09:46:18 AM »

Quote from: GallopingGhostler on January 09, 2021, 10:21:07 PM

That price is kind of high, unless it is one of those you must have it no matter the cost. I've bought used books through https://www.abebooks.com/. There is more opportunity to find what you are looking for, and you might be able to find what you are looking for, for a fraction of the cost of that book.

I've used the British Abebooks people quite a lot, and find them excellent. However, I've just looked at my copy of the book under discussion, and it didn't come from Abebooks - it was surplus from my local public library, and cost me the princely sum of sixty pence, which must be about a dollar. It's nice to get lucky now and then!

Al Williams · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2021, 03:29:00 PM »

New to forum
Down loaded plan for the cub controller (Lilliputian). Looks like a fun build. I have some questions:

There is no scale or dimensions on the plans. The closest dimension is the 5 1/2 propeller. I printed out the drawing with no scale and the propeller measures 5 1/2 inches so I assume it is correct. Looks like the wing span is ~19 inches.

The engine is specified as a Herkimer "OK Cub" I looked this engine up on the internet and it turns out they came in different sizes (.049, .071?). Which engine is on this plane?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
Al Williams

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2021, 04:38:40 PM »

Quote from: Al Williams on January 11, 2021, 03:29:00 PM

New to forum
Down loaded plan for the cub controller (Lilliputian). Looks like a fun build. I have some questions:

There is no scale or dimensions on the plans. The closest dimension is the 5 1/2 propeller. I printed out the drawing with no scale and the propeller measures 5 1/2 inches so I assume it is correct. Looks like the wing span is ~19 inches.

The engine is specified as a Herkimer "OK Cub" I looked this engine up on the internet and it turns out they came in different sizes (.049, .071?). Which engine is on this plane?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
Al Williams

Hi Al and Welcome!
The OK Cub is the .049, and there was two versions of those, the .049A and .049B. I'm not sure what the difference is, but both are out there in good quantities. Not hard to find them brand new, as they were still being sold up until a few years ago, being built up from large stores of parts. They can be finicky, so you may want to substitute a Cox Babe Bee for it. Check out the 1/2A section of this site for more information.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2021, 04:42:48 PM »

Since the original post was put up, I have had it in my mind that the Lilliputian was a free flight model? Walter designed and published those also, and may have been part of the confusion when the book was published. I just haven't had time to really research it. I just can't remember where I have seen that name related to a model airplane before, but I'm pretty sure I have. Anyone else thinking the same?
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2021, 04:52:25 PM »

Dan, it turns out the model in question is known as the Cub Controller - I posted the pdf file here.

The OK Cub .049A had attached tank much like the Cox Baby Bee. I had a lot of fun with one back in the day, it was a very good running engine. I'm posting a snapshot (so to speak) of a Cub lineup from yesteryear ...

Dennis

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2021, 05:03:21 PM »

Quote from: AirClassix on January 11, 2021, 04:52:25 PM

Dan, it turns out the model in question is known as the Cub Controller - I posted the pdf file here.

The OK Cub .049A had attached tank much like the Cox Baby Bee. I had a lot of fun with one back in the day, it was a very good running engine. I'm posting a snapshot (so to speak) of a Cub lineup from yesteryear ...

Dennis

Yes, I saw that, but in the book it s called the Lilliputian, and that is what is bugging me! The name Lilliputian still belongs to a model airplane somewhere!!
Maybe I can look this weekend.
Dan McEntee

GallopingGhostler · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2021, 06:36:43 PM »

The last of the half-A OK Cubs was the "R" model. It shows visibly how the mold was modified to cut and blank off the front venturi, converted to reed valve with displacement upped to 0.059, sometimes referred to as the 0.06R Cub. The plastic tank is molded in white. It still has the same firewall bolt spacing as the "A" Cub, which is the same as Cox .049 tank engines.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2021, 08:19:53 PM »

My second engine was the OK Cub .049A. Must have powered at least a dozen Scientific planes as well as a 1/2A combat wing. It was a tank mount. The .049B could be either fire wall mount or beam mount. Some of the .049B's had a fuel tank attached with a screw in the back.

Dennis Leonhardi · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2021, 10:18:25 PM »

For all the grief Cub engines took, I had a few in the '50s and very early '60s that were excellent runners and very reliable. On the other hand, my good friend and flying buddy Tom must have owned the absolute worst .049B to come out of the factory.

Man, that was a lotta years ago!

Trostle · « **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2021, 10:36:50 PM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on January 11, 2021, 04:42:48 PM

Since the original post was put up, I have had it in my mind that the Lilliputian was a free flight model? Walter designed and published those also, and may have been part of the confusion when the book was published. I just haven't had time to really research it. I just can't remember where I have seen that name related to a model airplane before, but I'm pretty sure I have. Anyone else thinking the same?
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Hi Dan,

The original post on this thread mentioned the "Lilliputian" that was pictured in Musciano's book Building and Flying Model Airplanes. The picture in the book on page 118 of this airplane shows what appear to be lead out tubes on the left wing tip. Also, it shows a deflected elevator and a barely discernible control horn on the top of the elevator. Verdict - pretty sure this was a design for control line.

Keith

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #34 on:** January 16, 2021, 08:45:24 AM »

In Junior High my folks bought me the Scientific Challenger kit. Also a Fox 35X.......

It ended up being a little nose-heavy, but no problem with line tension! We flew in a cow pasture so my brother would hand-launch it on about 20 feet of line and then I would press the button on the U-Really (yes!!) to let out the line to whatever seemed right.

It had plastic wing-tips and cowl and probably built up heavy, but with a 35X for power who would ever notice?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2021, 04:53:01 PM »

Regarding the "Lilliputian", I'm pretty sure there was a model by that name in the Aero Modeler plansbook, and IIRC was a FF sport model. Also possible that there was a Keith Laumer design by that name. He published an incredible number of FF sport models in a wide variety of model magazines. Sounds like an interesting guy! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Laumer

Steve

Trostle · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2021, 06:21:26 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on January 19, 2021, 04:53:01 PM

Regarding the "Lilliputian", I'm pretty sure there was a model by that name in the Aero Modeler plansbook, and IIRC was a FF sport model. Steve

I have a listing of all Aeromodeller plans through 1995. Also have a listing of all the plans from Model Aircraft , a British magazine which ceased publication in 1965. There is no Lilliputian in those listings.

Keith

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2021, 06:26:16 PM »

Quote

I have a listing of all Aeromodeller plans through 1995. Also have a listing of all the plans from Model Aircraft , a British magazine which ceased publication in 1965. There is no Lilliputian in those listings.

Someone ask Gulliver....

Doug Burright · « **Reply #38 on:** January 23, 2021, 12:31:49 PM »

I remember that book from my 5th grade library. I scratch built my version of the Liliputian. I never flew it. But, I also built the Navy Trainer, following the instructions to the letter. A 24" wingspan, solid everything, and they said it needs a McCoy 19 for power? Not in my world. A Babe Bee would be just fine! What's weird, after carving, and glueing, and doping - just like the instructions and pictures, I had an airplane!
To this day, have no idea why my brother and I tried to launch the plane in the field close to the house, over 2 foot tall weeds, when I bent the 1/8th inch music wire landing gear, and big Perfect wheels, and installed them on the plane. It would have saved so much time and fuel, to go to the school parking lot, and take off from the pavement! 10 year old's thinking, I guess. Anyway, we finally were able to throw it into the air, and make 33 laps with it!
I became nostalgic a couple of years ago, and built the same plane from memory. Same techniques and dope colors, too. This time, an OK Cub .074 for power. Then, I thought: I'll bet that book is out there somewhere! So, I found one, and bought it. My memory version was pretty close to the book version!