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Author Topic: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.  (Read 1437 times)

Online Tim Wescott

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Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« on: March 10, 2018, 08:23:10 PM »
So, I'm undergoing (and whining about) physical therapy for my shoulder.

Part of that has become dry flying -- when my therapist heard that I was walking around flying an imaginary plane, she handed me a piece of PVC pipe and had me "fly" that.  It's become part of my exercise routine, and probably has something to do with the fact that I appear to have not lost all of my mojo when I'm flying the real thing.  It's also been a very good tool for her to monitor my posture while I'm flying -- we believe that a great deal of the problems I'm suffering from is due to a combination of habitually hunching my shoulders, and atrophied rotator cuff muscles as both consequence and further cause.  I concentrate on flying the pretend plane, she calls corrections to my posture from outside.

I have noticed, however, that when I dry fly with the pipe, or at home with a little baton, that I make the same damned mistakes that I make in flight.  And they're not just my mistakes -- they're the same mistakes that I see all the good pilots making (I do them larger though -- so there!).

What has made me think -- if I make the same characteristic over-turn and hook on the insides of my eights, and the same characteristic exit from the circle a bit too soon, how in hell am I going to make the maneuver right for real?  And what is it about the maneuvers that we make the errors, even when they're totally unforced by the behavior of the plane?

Just for reference, here's a short list of some of the mistakes to which I refer:

  • Maneuvers not overlapping
  • Squares not square -- for instance, rising a bit at the bottom (ditto triangles, and the bottoms of square eights)
  • Over-turning the inside loop of the eights, and under-turning the outside -- so there's a little "hook" in the flight path at the transition
  • Loop sizes not matched
  • Making the exit from the inside of the vertical eight too high, and making up for it by making the exit from the outside too low
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 08:33:00 PM »

What has made me think -- if I make the same characteristic over-turn and hook on the insides of my eights, and the same characteristic exit from the circle a bit too soon, how in hell am I going to make the maneuver right for real?  And what is it about the maneuvers that we make the errors, even when they're totally unforced by the behavior of the plane?

Just for reference, here's a short list of some of the mistakes to which I refer:

  • Maneuvers not overlapping
  • Squares not square -- for instance, rising a bit at the bottom (ditto triangles, and the bottoms of square eights)
  • Over-turning the inside loop of the eights, and under-turning the outside -- so there's a little "hook" in the flight path at the transition
  • Loop sizes not matched
  • Making the exit from the inside of the vertical eight too high, and making up for it by making the exit from the outside too low

    This tells you it is a perceptual problem rather than a physical problem, most likely, head tilt, biasing the maneuvers to the wrong side of your body, or failing to visualize the maneuvers for some other reason (usually loss of orientation).

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 09:49:48 PM »
    This tells you it is a perceptual problem rather than a physical problem, most likely, head tilt, biasing the maneuvers to the wrong side of your body, or failing to visualize the maneuvers for some other reason (usually loss of orientation).

    Brett

Amen!  Just recently returning to flying after a nearly 3 year layoff (not from a particular physical problem), I find I fall into some of those traps when concentration wanes!  After about 30 flights now I typically fly several good maneuvers doing things correctly, then suddenly find a moment of disconnection from concentration and  make several mistakes in a row until I can get it together again!  Body movements and handle movements suffer, as well as foot placement!  For the most part I know how to do it right but it's still hard after a layoff to maintain the level of concentration necessary to stage everything right and make the mind follow!

It is getting better but can be really depressing!

I'm sure after an injury Tim you are having some of the same problems as well as maybe a little bit of caution toward the injured part.  That alone can cause concentration interruption!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2018, 10:22:52 PM »
It may not be all your poor physical attributes, maybe Sister Jenny might also need a touch of trimming. I borrowed this from a Brett post of years (and beers, on my part) ago:

........That should get you pretty close. If you have an abnormally light airplane watch for a tendency to "swoop" into corners (looks like it rotates around a point behind the airplane) increase the elevator motion relative to the flap A LITTLE BIT. If you have an abnormally heavy airplane you might need to increase the flap motion relative to the elevator.

Adjust the handle spacing to get an agreeable control response. Don't set it up for excessively quick response.

Once you get it close, start watching for the airplane to “leap” around corners, come out higher than you expect on round loops, or have the control effort suddenly become “light” in square corners.  If that happens, try moving the CG forward a little bit at a time until it stops, and then readjust the handle to get the right sensitivity.


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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 06:28:21 AM »
Tim:

Your situation is fascinating (if I am understanding what you said correctly) as most people have probably not seriously tryed to fly an imaginary airplane with physical movement.  I understand that the RC guys "fly" a model holding it in their hand to understand their pattern better, but I don't think that that is quite the same as what you are doing.  What happens if you slow your movements down (in other words, have your imaginary plane fly very slowly so it can fly more exactly)?

It seems to me that if you notice that you are flying incorrectly in your imagination, that somewhere in your mind is also the ability to fly an imaginary flight that is close to perfect.

At least you are recognizing your mistakes.  For some, that is the hardest thing to do.  Carl C has pointed out things that I was doing wrong that I didn't even notice.

Online gene poremba

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 09:16:47 AM »

 This may be some what related. I was a competition pistol shooter where speed and accuracy was most important. For practice, I used to stand in my basement and draw my pistol with my eyes closed and bring it up to the shooting position. Then I would open my eyes and see how close to the thumb tack target  on the wall that my front sight was pointed at. I would do this over and over again, sometimes making mag changes during the process. I am also a drummer. I practice paradiddles over and over many times a week to stay fresh. I flew IMAC in R/C competition. We flew stick models of each sequence before flying a round, not unlike the full scale IAC pilots do. When I returned to C/L flying to help me remember the sequence, I stood in a room and did what Tim does, dry fly the sequence. Some one watching might think your loosing it though! It really helped me with the over head 8 and clover leaf. The point is MUSCLE MEMORY. Once your brain doesn't have to think about what to do, things seem to go in slow motion and you have time to concentrate on other things, like keeping the loops the same size and exiting at the same bottoms. I no longer shoot because I destroyed the joints in my arms from thousands of rounds of high power factor ammo. I still feel the pain in my shoulders and back though when doing over head 8's. The dry flying in the house helps keep me limbered up though. Tim, I hope you continue to improve health wise, and who knows we may run across each other some day at an event......Gene

Offline Motorman

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 12:39:42 PM »
When I air guitar my stunt ship, I picture the figures in the rule book. I only do one maneuver because if I do more than one without a real plane flying that's just weird man.  :P
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 05:10:40 PM »
"Making the exit from the inside of the vertical eight too high, and making up for it by making the exit from the outside too low"

I've been nagging one NW Expert for years about his horizontal 8 (failing to hit the intersection to finish it), and another NW Expert about his Vertical 8, missing the intersection badly before starting the first outside. Another makes the dives in the triangles very noticeably too steep. Then, there was Dirt's Clover with the massive 1st loop. Some of this stuff does seem to be trim issues. It's possible that some could also come from either head tilt or cataracts. 

I gotta run outside and saw down a Plum tree before the blossoms, leaves and bees get going.  D>K Steve
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Online Paul Walker

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 05:18:17 PM »
Where is Rich Porter when Tim needs him!

😂

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 05:22:20 PM »
    This tells you it is a perceptual problem rather than a physical problem, most likely, head tilt, biasing the maneuvers to the wrong side of your body, or failing to visualize the maneuvers for some other reason (usually loss of orientation).

Could be.  What I found interesting is that we all seem to make many of the same mistakes (you, too -- remember, I judged Expert at the Regionals last year).  I'm going to try the body position thing while I'm dry-flying, to see if I can eliminate or alleviate the problems.  I think the glitch in the horizontal and overhead eights, in particular, may be a consequence of how the loops are laid out and being a right-hander.  I'm going to have to pay close attention to the lefties and wrong-way fliers at the next few contests.

I'm sure after an injury Tim you are having some of the same problems as well as maybe a little bit of caution toward the injured part.  That alone can cause concentration interruption!

Caution toward the injured part -- no, I forget that when I'm flying.  But part of my problem arose because I was chronically hunching my shoulders.  So in practice half of what I'm doing these days is reminding myself to let the shoulders fall down during the maneuvers.  It's still not automatic.

It seems to me that if you notice that you are flying incorrectly in your imagination, that somewhere in your mind is also the ability to fly an imaginary flight that is close to perfect.

At least you are recognizing your mistakes.  For some, that is the hardest thing to do.  Carl C has pointed out things that I was doing wrong that I didn't even notice.

I agree.  Conversely, if I can't trace a perfect pattern with a little stick, I'll never be able to do it with an airplane out there.  The dry flying is doing a lot both to keep me limber and to educate me about my screw-ups.

This may be some what related. I was a competition pistol shooter where speed and accuracy was most important. For practice, I used to stand in my basement and draw my pistol...

Wow.  Yes, I think it's closely related.  The closer you can do it with your eyes closed, the better you'll do with 'em open!

It may not be all your poor physical attributes, maybe Sister Jenny might also need a touch of trimming.

What?  A four year old Twister that lives up to its name when the sun's been shining on the Monocoat for too long?  Never!

Maybe you can play hookie Monday and we can go to Delta? Bring the Atlantis!

Alas, not this year.  Or, at least not until fall.  Things are way busy.  But maybe the weekend, if the weather is good.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 09:00:02 PM »
Where is Rich Porter when Tim needs him!

    Stunt Ball to the rescue!

    Brett

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 09:10:23 PM »
You haven't lived until you are assaulted by Rich "explaining" how to use the stunt ball, and why our rules are all wrong.

Tim came in late enough that he probably never had that "pleasure"!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 09:34:17 PM »
You haven't lived until you are assaulted by Rich "explaining" how to use the stunt ball, and why our rules are all wrong.

Tim came in late enough that he probably never had that "pleasure"!

    Rich can be a little exasperating, but I never got the impression that he was intentionally trying to annoy people. He just didn't realize it.  That puts him in a different category from some of these guys.

     Brett

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 09:40:42 PM »
    Rich can be a little exasperating, but I never got the impression that he was intentionally trying to annoy people. He just didn't realize it.  That puts him in a different category from some of these guys.

     Brett

Agreed. Most of the time.

Last time I saw him he crossed that line, and I let him know that was unacceptable. Haven't seen him since.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 10:04:52 PM »
Agreed. Most of the time.

Last time I saw him he crossed that line, and I let him know that was unacceptable. Haven't seen him since.

   That's a shame. Last time I looked at his (apparently dead) website, it certainly seemed a little more hostile than I recalled when I had talked to him.

     Brett

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 07:02:12 AM »
"Stuntball?"

Or should I not ask?

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 11:18:27 AM »
Watching some of our own people do the pattern, I see their main problem is FOG;

Fear Of Ground
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 11:47:42 AM »
"Stuntball?"

Or should I not ask?

   Rich had/has a "stunt ball" - a clear plastic globe with the maneuvers drawn on it. The idea is to aid in the description of spherical geometry. That's not so bad (although I think it leads to some very mistaken understanding because I think the principle is either wrong, or moot).

    It's a little worse when one wears it around their neck at a contest and comes to the pilot's meeting and insists on a literally endless discussion on how wrong we all are about any number of things. Or engages anyone whom he can entrap into a long conversation, where his complete lack of ability to read body language never lets him realize that the recipient wants to get out of the conversation, and is being polite. Stunt fliers (with notable exceptions) are pretty polite, and so this leads to people trying to think up reasons to avoid anyone with a stunt ball necklace.

  I don't know what he did to Paul, but he was generally amiable when I talked to him, albeit exasperating. Perhaps the reduction of inhibitions with age had something to do with it, his website at last look seemed pretty confrontational and far beyond merely eccentric, into the realm of net.kook. He would probably be very upset with me since I removed the 5 foot corner radius specification, which appeared to be his reason for existence.

    Brett

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 12:11:31 PM »
You haven't lived until you are assaulted by Rich "explaining" how to use the stunt ball, and why our rules are all wrong.

Tim came in late enough that he probably never had that "pleasure"!

I've heard of him though.

Heyyyyy -- I've got some ping-pong balls, and Pat Johnson has a laser cutter -- together we could make some Really Accurate Stunt Balls.  You could glue them onto a set of flip-up shades so that you wouldn't have to hold them up to your eye while flying, too!

Eh, re-reading the comments made me realize I misunderstood the Stunt Ball concept.  Still, a high-tech heads-up display that drew the path you were supposed to follow would be a great addition to Stunt, doncha think?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 12:39:21 PM »
I've heard of him though.

Heyyyyy -- I've got some ping-pong balls, and Pat Johnson has a laser cutter -- together we could make some Really Accurate Stunt Balls.  You could glue them onto a set of flip-up shades so that you wouldn't have to hold them up to your eye while flying, too!

Eh, re-reading the comments made me realize I misunderstood the Stunt Ball concept.  Still, a high-tech heads-up display that drew the path you were supposed to follow would be a great addition to Stunt, doncha think?

  Expect to hear a lot of the words like "latitude", "longitude", "parallax" and "stearadians", and then later, a lot of "in 15th and last place, <<insert name here>>". Rich was/is pretty much the head acolyte for the "Mysterious Runes" theory of stunt rules; that is, the stunt rules contain extensive hidden meanings that can only be revealed by decades of study and interpretation. The fact that the rules call it a "square loop" and the drawing is like a square drawn with a crayon by an bright 5-year old, the actually *mean* something completely different and that it should look like a trapezoid with a curved top. He wanted us to change all the maneuver descriptions to better reflect his deep understanding.

  BTW, Rich is *far* from the only person who thinks this, in fact, you see examples everywhere. 

  For the record, by the time you passed the 3rd grade, you know plenty enough about geometry to understand stunt maneuver shapes, and if you have a stunt ball, please discard it immediately.

   Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 03:35:14 PM »
Brett said:  " For the record, by the time you passed the 3rd grade, you know plenty enough about geometry to understand stunt maneuver shapes, and if you have a stunt ball, please discard it immediately."

To which I reply, "Yup".

Always remember, Tim, when you are standing in the middle of a sphere all points on that sphere are equidistant from you and, therefore, the mental equivalent of a flat sheet of paper on a wall directly in front of you.  Performing "your" job to the best of your ability is nothing more than drawing rule book sized shapes with your airplane pretty much as you would draw them on that sheet of paper.  From your position "facing the center of your maneuver" [the only correct way to look at your tricks!] a square should look like four equal length straight lines joined at 90 degree corners.  (realize you, from circle center, can thus fly "squares that look like squares to you "anywhere" on the hemisphere in which you're guiding them as long as your head and body are centered on the required path. (yes, there will be the chance of very minor distortions in "wide" tricks like square eights etc. but, assuming you're doing rule book sized maneuvers any distortion will be in the "noise" range).

Please note that I state the above with full recognition of the vast stunt library of commentary and rules making discussion that express the necessity that pilots "must" fly the maneuvers so as to make them look right from the judges' perspective in order to win the "big ones".  I know a lot of guys who've won the "big ones" over the years and doubt you'll find more than a tiny fraction who would advocate distorting the pilot's maneuver image to suit the view of guys/gals standing "somewhere" behind that pilot.

The last thing that should be part of your consideration is what the trick might look like from the judges' locations.  You don't need to (nor can you) "adjust" appropriately for any parallax that results from their position relative to the hemisphere on which you're drawing the tricks.  Making those "adjustments" are the job of the judge(s) and you've no control over the decisions he/she makes...so forget 'em!  Do the tricks so they look like you drew them on the black board in 3rd grade and trust them to do the best job they can.  They almost always do!

Ted

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2018, 05:22:15 PM »
In a similar vein, we had a guy in our club years ago that decided that since a CL stuntship is always flying in a circle, the proper way to fly a stunt pattern was to define level at 45 degrees (because to fly in a circle a full size airplane has to fly banked.)  Of course then, an inside loop started at 45 degrees and went through the top of the circle, an outside loop started at 45 degrees and went down, etc.

He got upset when others pointed out that these were control line airplanes and didn't need to fly banked to turn in a circle.

He now flies RC  ;D

Online GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2018, 06:28:34 PM »
Hello Practicing perfect mistakes was an old term that proved true when I first started stunt flying in the early 1980's as no one in the club I belonged to at the time  (mainly RC flyers) could fly the complete pattern and I learnt the wrong way to preform the maneuvers until meeting competent/experienced flyers from another club !
Just looking closely at the pattern in my Cox Super Stunter instructions showing the stunt schedule didn't help enough.

 As I  now explain how to preform each stunt 'dry' with a plastic model to my boys it strikes me that they have it easy by comparison!
It helps me too as I had a long break from competition flying and it drums it in.

Main problem for me is as Floyd stated before
Watching some of our own people do the pattern, I see their main problem is FOG;

Fear Of Ground
.....everything is too high

Regards Gerald

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2018, 07:12:47 PM »
"Just for reference, here's a short list of some of the mistakes to which I refer:

    Maneuvers not overlapping
    Squares not square -- for instance, rising a bit at the bottom (ditto triangles, and the bottoms of square eights)
    Over-turning the inside loop of the eights, and under-turning the outside -- so there's a little "hook" in the flight path at the transition
    Loop sizes not matched
    Making the exit from the inside of the vertical eight too high, and making up for it by making the exit from the outside too low"

Here's a few comments based on your list of repeating mistakes which you might want to consider, Tim. 

First, be sure you are facing the center of each maneuver and your handle is centered on your chest and "generally" at level flight height...this goes hand in hand with Brett's initial comments about placement, head tilt, etc.  Your body/arm posture should be as close to "neutral" with respect to the maneuver as possible.  This minimizes the potential for asymmetrical inputs due to...well...not doing so!

Ted

Insure your CG is optimally located and your handle angle at neutral is not biased down in the "natural" grip so that equal inputs inside and outside result in equal responses.  Remember how carefully you aligned the on board components of your control system to be square and recognize that the handle is simply an additional part of the control system and shouldn't have built in bias.

You can make an aircraft fly "acceptable patterns with less than optional flight trim...particularly in pitch.  You can take an airplane with a CG well ahead of the optimum location, open up the spacing on your handle and think "there, that's good enough."  Nope! Your CG is best located as far aft as the airplane remains stable throughout the pattern and glides positively when the engine quits.  How far aft that will be depends on the area and configuration of the lifting surfaces (wing and tail) but rocket science math isn't necessary to determine the optimum aftmost location.

After first flights with the CG at a sure safe location (~15% of the average chord for any "normal" design) gradually movement the CG aft a quarter inch or so on consecutive flights.  If the airplane starts to respond to quickly but still glides positively (no tendency to balloon into a breeze) reduce the handle spacing as necessary to retain a response rate with which you're comfortable.  Adjust gradually until the glide tends to get light on the lines and would make you uneasy trying to land in a breeze.  Move the CG a quarter inch or so forward until the glide is again comfortable.  Adjust handle spacing to once again optimize response rate.

(Quick aside.  The optimum CG is important because it will result in the most consistent response rate from calm to very windy conditions.  A forward of optimum CG will tend to demand more and more input as winds increase to maintain a safe rate of turn and allow patterns of similar size to best air conditions.  An airplane forced to fly patterns with a far forward CG can easily reach a point where patterns are no longer possible in high winds as the forward CG and increasing airspeed as the ship accelerates exceeds the pitch force necessary to no run into the ground in consecutive loops!!)

Now, if flying an optimally CG trimmed ship still exhibits the type of faults you've listed look critically at the items such as posture, handle neutral, etc.  If loops are consistently tighter one way than the other or corners overturn consistently one direction check handle neutral and front of chest and centered location of the handle in maneuvers.  (p.s. don't be too concerned if your hand and handle rise with the airplane as it transits above level flight (and in concert with your eye/head...keeping roughly the same relative view of handle and airplane in your peripheral vision)

If you've satisfied these criteria and the airplane is still exhibiting the same sort of consistently diverse response rate/entrance/exit it might well be time to consider flap/elevator alignment relative to one another (your hinge lines are already, of course, sealed, right).  This part is worth a discussion of its own but, in the most basic sense, if the other considerations are pretty much in place and the ship turns more aggressively inside than outside (the most likely historically) trim in a turn of down elevator at a time and see if the response becomes more equal...if so, another turn (or half turn if you've the capability) at a time until the response is equal both ways.

Sorry,  this got way out of hand.  Let me know if any of this might apply to your situation and the discussion could be refined a bit.  Bottom line is that the airplane/pilot mechanism is more likely to be the major factor in repeated errors than a hitch in your shoulder's get-a-long!

Ted

p.s. Two other trim musts: very little or no rudder offset (don't get Brett started) and leadouts close together (half inch or so) and their centerline exiting the wing tip no more than an inch or a bit less aft of the CG at the wingtip with the airplane dry (if IC...if powered by overly macho AAAs I'm not the guy to ask).

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2018, 08:43:29 PM »
Insure your CG is optimally located and your handle...

Ted.  I'm pointing at empty air.  With a little stick.  And I'm still making all the typical mistakes.  My point is that -- given that the airplane isn't even in the room -- maybe not all of the faults we have when we fly come from the airplane or how we fly it.  Maybe it comes from our perceptions or (as both you and Brett have suggested) from posture.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2018, 10:59:27 AM »
Tim, have you got a place where you can put a diagram of some of the maneuvers on the wall? Maybe even on the ceiling? Then you could practice pointing your stick at the diagrams, tracing around the outline as you make engine noises...  LL~ Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2018, 12:10:34 PM »
The thought just hit me after reading this again,  Maybe you are trying to hard.   I have noticed that either the judges are more lenient or I relaxing more when I fly.   The one time I knuckled down and put in what I thought was a really great as well as several other people I was shocked when I seen how low I was scored.   It even happened at another contest I thought I had won.   Any way second round after the low score I just relaxed and flew.  Was asked why the change by one of the individuals that seen both flights.   When I showed them how the second flight score was over 100 points better.  The other contest was a change of judges in which I moved with a 40 point advantage in first to a fourth place with a score that did not keep me in the running.  Now I think about a contest in which I had just overhauled my Fox .35 and didn't have no practice runs on it.   Was sitting in a fourth place position after first round and second round scored enough to win.   So now you know why I fly for fun when I want to fly in a contest and help support a club. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2018, 03:06:44 PM »
Tim, have you got a place where you can put a diagram of some of the maneuvers on the wall? Maybe even on the ceiling? Then you could practice pointing your stick at the diagrams, tracing around the outline as you make engine noises...  LL~ Steve

BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR...

Actually, I want a 200' diameter steel dome with the framework made in the shape of all the maneuvers, that I can mount over a flying circle.  Stunt Ball done Right.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2018, 06:11:04 PM »
Ted.  I'm pointing at empty air.  With a little stick.  And I'm still making all the typical mistakes.  My point is that -- given that the airplane isn't even in the room -- maybe not all of the faults we have when we fly come from the airplane or how we fly it.  Maybe it comes from our perceptions or (as both you and Brett have suggested) from posture.

Tim

To which I repeat: "First, be sure you are facing the center of each maneuver and your handle [pencil] is centered on your chest and "generally" at level flight height...this goes hand in hand with Brett's initial comments about placement, head tilt, etc.  Your body/arm posture should be as close to "neutral" with respect to the maneuver as possible.  This minimizes the potential for asymmetrical inputs due to...well...not doing so!"

To which I add further: do you merely point your pencil in the requisite direction for each trick or do you simulate the accompanying body/arm movement associated with flying the actual maneuver?  i.e. Are your pencil overheads actually overhead?  Body arched et al?

Truly not trying to be a smart back end of the donkey here.  Just trying to visualize what it is you're doin'.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2018, 06:14:55 PM »
p.s.  Don't give short shrift to the comments about airplane trim, by the way.  Proper posture et al is unlikely to overcome inconsistent response to consistent performance of both inside and outside maneuvers.  The hardest thing in the world to fly well is an airplane that requires significantly different inputs in one direction or the other to get equal results!

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2018, 09:35:51 AM »
p.s.  Don't give short shrift to the comments about airplane trim, by the way.  Proper posture et al is unlikely to overcome inconsistent response to consistent performance of both inside and outside maneuvers.  The hardest thing in the world to fly well is an airplane that requires significantly different inputs in one direction or the other to get equal results!

No sir!  At least, not when I'm actually flying an airplane.

Getting Paul's hand-me-down Atlantis has been a huge revelation.  So far I've figured that the best way I can trim that plane is to leave it the @#$% alone, though.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2018, 06:38:59 PM »
No sir!  At least, not when I'm actually flying an airplane.

Getting Paul's hand-me-down Atlantis has been a huge revelation.  So far I've figured that the best way I can trim that plane is to leave it the @#$% alone, though.

Can't argue with that logic!  Are you flying it with his handle and lines set-up?

Ted

Offline phil c

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2018, 07:36:09 PM »
Ted.  I'm pointing at empty air.  With a little stick.  And I'm still making all the typical mistakes.  My point is that -- given that the airplane isn't even in the room -- maybe not all of the faults we have when we fly come from the airplane or how we fly it.  Maybe it comes from our perceptions or (as both you and Brett have suggested) from posture.

The maneuvers are harder to do with a short stick.  60ft+ lines give you a lot more room.
But Ted's points are still good advice.  If you do the exercises outside you won't be distracted by corners and windows.  The most important thing is visualizing the maneuver sitting out there, say a square loop.  It starts out with a 90deg turn.  As the plane approaches 45deg make another turn a bit less than 90deg, so the plane flys straight across(it will go slightly above 45deg) and make a similar turn to straight down.  Then start a turn about 20ish feet and fly into level flight.  Most of the top pilots have a tiny bend in the down leg to take up the slack in the controls, followed by the sharp turn to level flight.

The maneuver description and the judge's guide both call for the top of the loop to be level flight at 45deg.  This is nearly impossible to do, or see, and requires the plane to turn more than 90deg, then level out at 45deg for a fraction of a second and then make a greater than 90deg turn so the plane heads straight down.  Rich's stuntball would come in handy.  The maneuver looks better and judges better if the plane flys straight, great circle arcs between corners, all of equal length(which is easy to see and judge).

But follow Ted's advice: stand straight and planted, but not necessarily straight up, and look at the center of the maneuver,  fly the maneuver with your arm, not by moving your whole body, and try to see the whole maneuver without moving your head.  Unless there are clear land marks like trees or flag poles or slow moving clouds it's impossibly easy to reposition the maneuver and not even know it, screwing it up thoroughly.  All the mistakes you mention come from watching the plane, instead of flying the maneuver.

Some of these laser tag places have a hemisphere room in them.  A laser pointer handle there would give a more realistic view of what is going on.
phil Cartier

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flying the same @#$% mistakes.
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2018, 09:32:55 PM »
But follow Ted's advice: stand straight and planted, but not necessarily straight up, and look at the center of the maneuver,  fly the maneuver with your arm, not by moving your whole body, and try to see the whole maneuver without moving your head.

     I keep my shoulders perpendicular to the lines, rotating at the waist. The reference frame is determined by your feet.

     You can't possibly see the airplane through the maneuvers without moving your head, but I would guess 99% of the problems come from side-to-side head tilts. If there are any shape problems, the very first thing to do is to consciously make it a point to stand up straight, just like your mom had yelled at you about it.

   Brett


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