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Author Topic: Flying question  (Read 1948 times)

Offline Cody bishop

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Flying question
« on: January 14, 2018, 04:23:18 PM »
So when flying I normally fly with my arm in but people tell me to fly with my arm out stretched what to you do and what is the difference if how the plane handles

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2018, 04:34:46 PM »
Don't listen to them! Look on YouTube for some videos of Paul Walker, Brett Buck, or David Fitzgerald flying. Watch the pilot, and do what they do. 

Where are you? It would be nice if everybody would put their city/state in their profile so we'd know if you're in our area. Nothing evil will come from it!  H^^ Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2018, 05:26:50 PM »
Neither outstretched nor tucked in tight.  Holding it out stresses your muscles more, it may be a good idea to exercise if you choose to do that.  Different top pilots have different styles -- Steve's advice about YouTubing is good.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2018, 06:15:04 PM »
Morotman's advice is good!

Just be aware as you progress you should strive to keep your hand relatively in front of your body with the elbow bent to some degree and the hand held high enough to allow your vision to see both it and the airplane at the same time.  Your body and feet should be kept square to the maneuvers during actual stunt flying with your feet spread and planted beneath your shoulders.  Try not to move your hand and arm in large flailing motions.  Precise maneuvers are flown with slight combinations of arm and wrist motions not large movements of the arm either up. down or sideways!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 06:19:48 PM »
If you are a beginner pilot ...

+1.  If you're starting to contemplate stunt, though, you should be transitioning to doing it with your wrist.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 07:13:24 PM »
Some times this old man flies with arm out stretched and some times bent at the elbow.   But the when racing I have my hand on the center of the chest except when passing, then I move it up to pass over the other pilots when the plane is fast enough.  Oh, you are talking stunt.  Go watch the different pilots at various contests or even practicing.  Try some of the methods you see and then fly what is comfortable to you. D>K
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Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 07:49:18 PM »
Well, If I were you I'd do what feels just right! In addition try not to strangle the handle in time you'll learn that flying with your last two finger joint gives you the best feel and by all means use a safety thong attached to the handle at the "Down Control" end! If by some strange happenstance you release the handle ...the plane will automatically find the ground and not hit something or somebody!

Phil Spillman

PS the Thong should be about 1.5' long net of loops of attachment.

Phil Spillman
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2018, 10:20:56 PM »
The idea of "doing what feels right may not be good advice unless you happen to be a Walker Cup Winner.  I would suggest you go on line and watch some videos of the very best flying like Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Bill Werwage, Brett Buck, Ted Fancher, etc.  Watch what they do and emulate it.  If it doesn't feel right, do it until it does!  It happens to be what works best!

Look for flights from the Nationals Finals and World Champs finals.

Go on U Tube and look for David Fitzgerald Thunder Gazer Flight!

David is the current World Champ, and several times National Champ!

Do what He does and you will basically be doing what most of the top stunt fliers do.  Because it works and allows very precise maneuvers!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Russell Bond

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 10:57:48 PM »
Er....Orestes Hernandez from the USA is the World Champ at the moment.

(Dave came 9th.)
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 11:17:33 PM »
Flying stunt competitively requires finesse.  Your ultimate goal should be to have the airplane "in front" of you at all times and to utilize to the greatest extent possible the most comfortable handle inputs possible to result in the required direction of flight for your aircraft to achieve the desired new track.  Any time you require larger or tinier motor inputs to put your ship where you want it it will take roughly equivalent larger or tinier motor inputs to stop it.  Both are recipes for poor inputs and outputs that result in less than precise entries and exits and, therefore, maneuver shapes and errors (i.e. lower scores).

The correct recipe for a precision pattern is an aircraft trimmed to make "controlled" responses to repeatable inputs from the pilot..which must, by definition, be modest as the greater or lesser the requried movement of the pilot "parts" to transmit the commands to the aircraft the more likely the results will be less than desired.

If the airplane is not "in front of you" the results of your inputs will be influenced by where the ship actually is with respect to where the pilot makes his/her inputs. (the angular relationship to the pilot's inputs will alter the impact of the inputs by the time they are transmitted to the airborne system) i.e. the input arm and handle should be "pointed" at the aircraft from before the beginning until after the end of each maneuver.  the best way to achieve that goal is to have the handle and its motor elements (the pilot's body and its parts) facing the aircraft.

Construct the relationship between the pilot's movement at the handle so that it is comfortably within the range of inputs necessary to achieve the desired response by the aircraft.  i.e. if you've got to yank your hand, elbow and shoulder to achieve a desired 90 degree corner the likelihood of the ships response mirroring the "desired' flight path is much smaller than if the same aircraft response can be achieve with "smaller and repeatable" motor inputs by the pilot. The greater the pilot input to achieve the desired response of the aircraft the less likely the input will be correct and. often, the less likely the exit from that input will be!  Both imbalances between input and result are likely to produce errors in shape and lower scores.

Achieving this serendipitous relationship between the pilot and the aircraft response is a combination of an equally serendipitous relationship between the handle inputs required and the response of the aircraft.  Such a relationship is the result of: 1: a predictably responsive powertrain; 2. a control system properly constituted to produce inputs to the airplane that; 3. are able to produce the desired response and angular flight path from a properly "trimmed'  aircraft...basically an aircraft of adequate wing loading (greater than most feel is required) to achieve the desired track with ease i.e. CG in a location that matches the control system's input commensurate with the pilot's input preferences combined with an aircraft configuration [wing loading, CG location and required tail area) to accommodate that serendipitous relation between comfortable inputs and desired results.

More later as it's getting late.


Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2018, 01:18:36 AM »
Cody,
Do you fly the whole pattern or just learning?
Chris...

Offline Cody bishop

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 10:31:24 AM »
Chris I am still learning the pattern I can do some basic maneuvers I can do loops wingovers inverted flight and I have done a few accidental figure 8s

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 11:05:58 AM »
Chris I am still learning the pattern I can do some basic maneuvers I can do loops wingovers inverted flight and I have done a few accidental figure 8s

       If you can do that, you have long since graduated from the "stiff-arm" nonsense that we foist upon rank beginners. That's an attempt to prevent rank beginners from over-controlling, but I would never recommend doing it in any circumstance, because it makes for a  bad habit that you have to unlearn later.

      There have been extensive discussions about posture in the past, I would search for those. While you are at it, search for "handle position", and if you have a "relaxed grip" to any significant degree (i.e. your hand is tilted forward like a pistol grip in level flight), "untrain" yourself for that, to. The handle should be very close to perpendicular to the lines at neutral, and your wrist isn't consequentially different or special to demand it be otherwise.

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 03:50:45 PM »
Hmmmmmm....
What Ted said.....I think!

No one can do it or say it like Ted!   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 08:15:46 PM »
Ted lost me at "serendipitous".   LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 09:44:13 PM »
Ted lost me at "serendipitous".   LL~ Steve

Although this might not be a 100% accurate definition, the intention is that the control input applied naturally by the pilot will produce the desired response by the aircraft.  If a tiny flick of the wrist results in an overturned 90 degree corner or it takes a gross movement of the entire arm to simply enter a round loop you haven't achieved a happy relationship between what it takes on the part of the pilot to be replicated by the response of the airplane.  Almost nobody (except a handful of stunt "household names like Jimmy Casale--who might be the poster boy for "making" it work anyhow) can deal with an imbalance between preferred pilot effort and the resulting airplane response.  Serendipity in my use of the word means that a given input by the pilot results in an aircraft reaction consistent with the personally appropriate effort applied by the pilot. 

This "serendipitous" balance between the needs of the airplane and the preference of the pilot is the hoped for outcome of first trimming the aircraft to be consistently responsive  both inside and outside to inputs that reflect the energy expended by the pilot to achieve that balanced consistency.  IMHO, trimming the airplane to be equally and predictably responsive should be the first goal of flight trimming a new airplane.  The second goal is to adjust the appropriately adjustable handle to allow the aircraft's consistent response to inputs be the result of inputs by the pilot that mirror the desired response.  the first, airplane trim, has little to do with individual preference...it is simply working to make inputs and responses appropriately balanced.  The second is almost entirely a matter of making the pilot happy so that inputs he/she feels are "right" for a given response by the aircraft result in that response.  That's why the adjustable handles that were largely the brainchild of the late Bob Baron are every bit an essential element in the marriage between the happy (properly trimmed) airplane and the happy pilot (the handle properly adjusted to the preference of the pilot to produce the desired airplane response).

It is this essential marriage between pilot preference and airplane response that must be achieved for the vast majority of us to be consistently competitive.  This is precisely why it is so important for prospective stunt fliers to first become competent aircraft (and power train) trimmers and why you see so many on line and published references to previously published works like Paul Walker's flight trim treatise over and over again.  To be a competitive pilot you have "GOT"to be a competitive flight trimmer...and you've got to use one of the several different versions of appropriately configured and adjustable control handles to allow yourself to adapt a well trimmed airplane to the preferences of its pilot.

Unless you're the second Jimmy Casale these are the two essentials to being a competitive stunt pilot.

I think.

Ted

Online Trostle

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 11:34:20 PM »

I think.

Ted

Ted

I tried that once.  It did not work out too well for me.

Keith

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 12:14:17 AM »
Although this might not be a 100% accurate definition, the intention is that the control input applied naturally by the pilot will produce the desired response by the aircraft.  If a tiny flick of the wrist results in an overturned 90 degree corner or it takes a gross movement of the entire arm to simply enter a round loop you haven't achieved a happy relationship between what it takes on the part of the pilot to be replicated by the response of the airplane.  Almost nobody (except a handful of stunt "household names like Jimmy Casale--who might be the poster boy for "making" it work anyhow) can deal with an imbalance between preferred pilot effort and the resulting airplane response.  Serendipity in my use of the word means that a given input by the pilot results in an aircraft reaction consistent with the personally appropriate effort applied by the pilot. 

This "serendipitous" balance between the needs of the airplane and the preference of the pilot is the hoped for outcome of first trimming the aircraft to be consistently responsive  both inside and outside to inputs that reflect the energy expended by the pilot to achieve that balanced consistency.  IMHO, trimming the airplane to be equally and predictably responsive should be the first goal of flight trimming a new airplane.  The second goal is to adjust the appropriately adjustable handle to allow the aircraft's consistent response to inputs be the result of inputs by the pilot that mirror the desired response.  the first, airplane trim, has little to do with individual preference...it is simply working to make inputs and responses appropriately balanced.  The second is almost entirely a matter of making the pilot happy so that inputs he/she feels are "right" for a given response by the aircraft result in that response.  That's why the adjustable handles that were largely the brainchild of the late Bob Baron are every bit an essential element in the marriage between the happy (properly trimmed) airplane and the happy pilot (the handle properly adjusted to the preference of the pilot to produce the desired airplane response).

It is this essential marriage between pilot preference and airplane response that must be achieved for the vast majority of us to be consistently competitive.  This is precisely why it is so important for prospective stunt fliers to first become competent aircraft (and power train) trimmers and why you see so many on line and published references to previously published works like Paul Walker's flight trim treatise over and over again.  To be a competitive pilot you have "GOT"to be a competitive flight trimmer...and you've got to use one of the several different versions of appropriately configured and adjustable control handles to allow yourself to adapt a well trimmed airplane to the preferences of its pilot.

Unless you're the second Jimmy Casale these are the two essentials to being a competitive stunt pilot.

I think.

Ted

And I thought I knew how to do this!  Silly Me!
I'm still confused.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 04:36:08 PM »
Not to highjack the thread, but wasn't Jimmy C. interesting to watch!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 06:22:36 PM »
Ted

I tried that once.  It did not work out too well for me.

Keith

I remember that day, Keith!  Fortunately you had a back-up.  i.e. Barb knew the answer and corrected you. ;D ;D

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 06:27:35 PM »
Not to highjack the thread, but wasn't Jimmy C. interesting to watch!

He was indeed!  Jimmy also burned fuel by the barrel full in order to mentally and physically program the necessary variety of inputs to beat everybody else on a pretty regular basis!  He is also well known for having broken more airplanes than anyone except, maybe, Ted Fancher!! HB~> HB~>

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Flying question
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
snip
I'm still confused.

Randy Cuberly

Ha ha, Randy.

Just my wordy way of saying success at the handle is the result of making the airplane respond to the handle in a manner consistent with the unique preferences of the human waving it.  We've all known what the tricks look like since grammar school and can draw them just fine with paper and pencil.  A lot harder with a box of balsa.

Ted

It's the reason people do this stuff for a lifetime because it ain't easy.


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