Flying palm up inverted

[Paul Taylor]

I learned to fly inverted palm up. I would like to try and fix that.
Or should I try and not try and teach an old dawg a new trick?
Am I asking for trouble?

[Dan Berry]

You just hafta work at it

[Ken Culbertson]

It took me two years to get rid of the palms up habit, but it was worth it.  I still tilt a little.  The point is that you are no longer fighting the changes that occur from rotation speed.  I learned Palms Up when I was 12 and made the change to vertical when I was 75, so not quite an old dog.  Don't make the change at the start of a contest season! It takes serious concentration at first.  Start with the maneuvers.  Chances are you are going palm up on the squares as well.  I changed after it became apparent that I was not able to turn with the same even gate that I had as a kid in my 50's.  In my case it was worth it but, a lot of fliers do just fine with palms up.

Ken
 

[Brett Buck]

I learned to fly inverted palm up. I would like to try and fix that.
Or should I try and not try and teach an old dawg a new trick?
Am I asking for trouble?

   I never did that, but people tell me it is difficult. Just flying inverted that way is not terribly bad, but some people have to rotate their hand to follow the airplane through the maneuvers, and that can make it nearly impossible. That means, have their hand vertical through the inside part of a square 8, then rotate it palm up over the top of the outside part, straight again for the descending leg, the palm-up again for the bottom, vertical for the intersection, etc. It's actually painful to watch and I can't see how anyone can successfully complete a square 8 or hourglass doing that.

    There are a lot of these sorts of things people learn over the years, and some of them were actually helpful or necessary back with 4-2 break engines and mostly-out-of-trim airplanes. Now, it's hurting but it's a habit that is hard to break.

    Brett

[Paul Taylor]

Ok I took an old FS and practiced this morning. I think it’s doable.
I really had to think about it. It took me 25+ years to learn this way nowI need to unlearn it. 🤪

[Dan McEntee]

Ok I took an old FS and practiced this morning. I think it’s doable.
I really had to think about it. It took me 25+ years to learn this way nowI need to unlearn it. 🤪

       Yeah, keep this in mind!!  Be conscious of it for 3 or 4 flights and increase each session if you can. Then just finish out the session having fun! I didn't try to quit cold turkey and NOT fly inverted palm up any more but just worked at it. I'm about 1/2 to 3/4 oof the way to upright and still working on it!! I don't loose any sleep over it, though!!
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Doug Moon]

I fly palm up inverted. I can still hear the guy who taught me 30+ years ago telling me "if you get scared just stop and the plane will turn over"  When I do outside rounds i just kind of keep it tilted at about 45 degrees or so then roll to upright as the plane comes out upright.  Where I think it hurts me is the RWO pullout to invented. I follow the path over the top so as the plane is coming down my palm is actually facing down and as I pull out inverted I snap my hand palm up for the inverted portion. If I don't think about it can usually get that maneuver pretty good but once i start focusing on it all hell breaks loose. I have been able to make it work but I sure would like to fix it.

I am building a profile maybe I will try it this summer.

[Brian Hampton]

I learned to fly inverted palm up because back then when I went inverted for even maybe a quarter of a lap I started to think of my hand as being attached to a joystick at the top of the model. This worked well for me as I slowly started extending the inverted flight until I was quite confident doing repetitive laps without thinking about that "joystick" any more. That was the start of beginning to build up muscle memory, although I didn't know that at the time. By the time I started to try squarish loops that muscle memory really helped. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, no matter if you learn to fly either palm up or not, then it's how you develop your own style of muscle memory. Trying to develop a different style is a great way to end up crashing .

[Motorman]

I fly inverted palm up too with no problems. I tried it the other way but felt akward. I understand the thinking that if you don't track the plane well it will give you control input but it's so easy to track the plane it doesn't matter. When I do manuvers (square eight) my hand stays pretty much straight up. Go figure.

MM

[Howard Rush]

!

[john e. holliday]

To this old man it is what you get used to.   If you are flying really decent patterns, why worry?   I myself used to catch myself flying palm up during inverted portions of the pattern.   

[Steve Helmick]

Never fell into the habit of palm up or down, but did tend to tilt the handle to about 10:30 (i.e., semi-palm DOWN) when flying inverted. I practiced NOT DOING THAT for a season, and eliminated the habit...I thought. The next Spring, it was back, so I had to practice not doing it "like deja vu all over again". The good news is that seemed to dispell the evil habit. I am very much against learning bad habits, because they're a beach to unlearn.  Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

Never fell into the habit of palm up or down, but did tend to tilt the handle to about 10:30 (i.e., semi-palm DOWN) when flying inverted. I practiced NOT DOING THAT for a season, and eliminated the habit...I thought. The next Spring, it was back, so I had to practice not doing it "like deja vu all over again". The good news is that seemed to dispell the evil habit. I am very much against learning bad habits, because they're a beach to unlearn.  Steve

Quite true.  I have finally gotten to the point that I can keep the handle vertical without thinking about it.  What helped me was making sure that I rolled slightly palm down coming off of the top of the inside.  By the time I was at 5' I was vertical.
What is really hard for me is rolling the handle once I am locked in at 5'.

Ken

[Douglas Bykoff]

Look at this pilot here. He flies inverted with his palm facing down! Didn't anyone teach him how to fly acrobatics?

https://youtu.be/p7wwvS5GMP0?si=FM6mCsEETHoLeVbK

[Steve Helmick]

I think the objective of this thread is to suggest ways for Beginner fliers to avoid learning bad habits and young-ish fliers to consider correcting bad habits. AT LEAST, suggest that mentors/coaches not suggest the horizontal handle as the way to fly inverted laps. My bet is that Igor would probably NOT want to fly inverted with the handle other than vertical if it wasn't a long established habit.

The problem with having the handle horizontal is that any roughness in the footwork while rotating can affect inverted flight and score. At an Expert level, one point gained or lost can mean 1st vs. 3rd place trophy or none at all. When we can get Howard to make the trophies, it matters!     Steve

[Douglas Bykoff]

I think the purpose of this thread is to suggest ways for Beginner fliers to avoid learning bad habits and young-ish fliers to consider correcting bad habits. AT LEAST, suggest that mentors/coaches do not suggest the horizontal handle as the way to fly inverted laps. My bet is that Igor would probably NOT want to fly inverted with the handle other than vertical if it wasn't a long established habit.

The problem with having the handle horizontal is that any roughness in the footwork while rotating can affect inverted flight and score. At an Expert level, one point gained or lost can mean 1st vs. 3rd place trophy or none at all. When we can get Howard to make the trophies, it matters!    Steve

Yes,

I have been forcing myself to fly with my hand vertically for many years. I also try to teach two pilots that I am helping to fly with the handle in vertical.

When I watched Igor's videos a few years ago, I was immediately impressed when I saw him flying with his palm down.

I have the impression that this might help the model to tow in inverted maneuvers, but I once tried to imitate him and almost crashed my model.

I don't know any other pilot who does this, hence my admiration for him, not disdain for others.

Between flying with my palm up or down, I choose vertically.


Douglas.

[John Skukalek]

I learned to fly inverted with my palm down 35 years ago. It helped me because I focused on the front of my hand (the pinky finger side) being "up" and the trailing side of my hand (pointer finger side) being "down". I still fly that way today. Maybe I should try to change to upright/vertical for inverted flight.

[Brett Buck]

I learned to fly inverted with my palm down 35 years ago. It helped me because I focused on the front of my hand (the pinky finger side) being "up" and the trailing side of my hand (pointer finger side) being "down". I still fly that way today. Maybe I should try to change to upright/vertical for inverted flight.

     Have someone watch you as you do the maneuvers, if you are screwing your arm around trying to rotate the handle based on whether you are upside down or not, then, probably worth some consideration. Just doing it in stable inverted flight is not all that harmful.

        Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

Just doing it in stable inverted flight is not all that harmful.

        Brett

I would like to put an age qualifier on that.  Once you start to lose your perfect balance and your gate gets less than smooth the palm up starts to produce some vertical drifting that will gradually get worse.  If you can get the handle vertical before geriatrics set in you can bobble a bit and still keep the plane level.

Ken

[GERALD WIMMER]

     Have someone watch you as you do the maneuvers, if you are screwing your arm around trying to rotate the handle based on whether you are upside down or not, then, probably worth some consideration. Just doing it in stable inverted flight is not all that harmful.

        Brett

Hello
My youngest son Max is 15years old and after reading this discussion went out today with a mission to get his handle vertical.
He crashed the 09 sized diesel combat model many times and restarted the PAW09 himself and kept going till he felt he could see himself improving, I was impressed!
He had at one point got himself into a very weird position with his palm horizontal and over his left shoulder every time he flew inverted, this came about from watching one of our top combat flyers and coping him I think. Not a good set up for stunt but Max is keen on stunt and scale so wants to improve his flying.

Regards Gerald

 

[Doug Moon]

!

Since mine looks the same as his I think this pic will re-enforce me to stick with what I got going.   

[Paul Taylor]

Hello
My youngest son Max is 15years old and after reading this discussion went out today with a mission to get his handle vertical.
He crashed the 09 sized diesel combat model many times and restarted the PAW09 himself and kept going till he felt he could see himself improving, I was impressed!
He had at one point got himself into a very weird position with his palm horizontal and over his left shoulder every time he flew inverted, this came about from watching one of our top combat flyers and coping him I think. Not a good set up for stunt but Max is keen on stunt and scale so wants to improve his flying.

Regards Gerald

Good to hear. Learn while he is young. I’m not sure I’ll get there.

[Ted Fancher]

I'm kinda tardy on this thread but just thought of a suggestion that might help illustrate the difference in success at contests of those who fly "upright" or "slanted sideways" grips when inverted or "maneuvering "!



This thought came to me as I reviued the previous inputs.

How many have won major CLPA contests while flying with entirely "upright" maneuver inputs---and how many have won major CLPA contests with vertical inside inputs but horizontal outside inputs?

My guess would be that most victories have been achieved with the "vertical" mode than via the "slanted path outside" mode.

I suspect that result would be true insofar as the vertical flight path accuracy of the slanted mode (in both level flight and during maneuvers) would result in more frequent "deviations" of desired tracks in both level flight and maneuvers as the ground based pilot "rotates" to follow the flight path of the maneuver.

Or not....I'd put myself in the "upright maneuver input" corner.


Ted 

[Brett Buck]

How many have won major CLPA contests while flying with entirely "upright" maneuver inputs---and how many have won major CLPA contests with vertical inside inputs but horizontal outside inputs?

My guess would be that most victories have been achieved with the "vertical" mode than via the "slanted path outside" mode.

I suspect that result would be true insofar as the vertical flight path accuracy of the slanted mode (in both level flight and during maneuvers) would result in more frequent "deviations" of desired tracks in both level flight and maneuvers as the ground based pilot "rotates" to follow the flight path of the maneuver.

Or not....I'd put myself in the "upright maneuver input" corner.

    We have a pilot of mutual acquiantance that was trying to rotate his hand flat or upright depending on the attitude of the airplane, normal when the airplane was upright or vertical, and flat when it was upside down. So, just doing a loop he started out vertical but had to rotate his entire arm over the right by the top, then vertical again by the bottom, over and over. Add to this his "relaxed" grip (which means that he also had to adjust the control input as he rotated his arm), it was completely impossible to reliably do even the simplest maneuvers. Square 8s were painful to watch, hand waving all over the place just to compensate for the various "requirements" of having his hand tilted sideways and making up for the effect it had on the control inputs.

    Same guy started working himself out of both the "relaxed grip" and arm-twisting, and when he manages it, he became a NATs-qualifier level pilot. When he can't manage it, it is back to being painful and his performance degenerates markedly.

     Brett

[Jim Kraft]

 
   I never did fly palm up from the beginning. When I was learning to fly inverted I kept getting confused and crashed a lot. I thought about it, and decided to put my thumb on the top of the handle. That was the panic button. When I got inverted and started going down I pushed the panic button and half looped to upright. I kept doing that until I could make a full lap inverted. After a while it became natural to push for up inverted.

It works very well until you hook up your lines backwards and do not check before you release the plane. LOL. Am I the only one?

[Ken Culbertson]

It works very well until you hook up your lines backwards and do not check before you release the plane. LOL. Am I the only one?

Yes, you are the only one. 

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

 
   I never did fly palm up from the beginning. When I was learning to fly inverted I kept getting confused and crashed a lot. I thought about it, and decided to put my thumb on the top of the handle. That was the panic button. When I got inverted and started going down I pushed the panic button and half looped to upright. I kept doing that until I could make a full lap inverted. After a while it became natural to push for up inverted.

It works very well until you hook up your lines backwards and do not check before you release the plane. LOL. Am I the only one?

Hi Jim.  I also do the thumb thing-even make my handles with a sort of thumb pad.   I haven't really thought about it much but I fly inverted with the handle canted that way around 15 degrees but nowhere near palm up.   One of my son in laws definitely flies palm up inverted and he is still in the intermediate stage so I'm going to try to help him straighten that up before it gets too ingrained.  I've sort of let it go being more concerned with keeping airplanes out of the ground.   I think changes like that can't be made real quickly.   Just being aware of it and slowly working to change it is the best bet.

Dave

[Ted Fancher]

 The problem I see with the "horizontal" grip inverted is that doing so demands that the pilot never allow the ship to exceed or fall behind the necessary relation  to keep the planes inverted flight nailed and true. If the inverted grip sags behind the "required" angel toward the ships leadout the down  leg will become an inputting unit and the level flight path will climb as the resulting handle input shortens and drives the elevators down making the ship climb and vice versa.  If, for instance, pilot stopped turning precisely in tune with path of the ship...or exfiltrated it...the pitch angle would change commensurately and the "level" path of the ship would wonder appropriately.

Put simply, any deviation from perfect and consistent alignment with the ship will result in an altitude deviation.  The vertical grip doesn't have that sensitive built in potential.  Without beating a dead horse I'd also suggest that any shift from horizontal to vertical  grip inputs during multiple content inside/outside maneuvers almost asks for deviations during the switch from inside to outsied inputs from the pilot. 

In other words, that grip technique appears to me to add much potential room for distorted maneuvers than a traditional Up is Inside and Down is Outside!

Easy for me to say, I know.  I haven't flown a stunt ship now for longer than I care to try to remember.  Miss it a lot but all my ships hanging from walls and garage sealing are old as the hills and I expect every engine would have to be stripped down and recooperated before any chance of practicing my convictions could be accomplished!  None the less I demand the right to old geezers opinions.

Best to all who love to fly 'em on strings!

Ted

[Jim Kraft]

   How many of you ever watched Lew Woolard fly? He learned to fly the opposite of us. He pushed the top line to go up and pulled to go down. It would drive you crazy to watch him fly. He flew upright like we do inverted, and inverted like we do upright.

[Brian Hampton]

I've started to wonder if there's been some misinterpretation of the difference between palm up/down control so I just did a quick check on how I do it. I hold the handle with elbow bent to waist level and my wrist at a comfortable neutral feel so the handle was upright as in normal level flight. I made some marks on a cupboard wall to show the neutral position of the handle then another mark as though I was flying inverted by rotating my wrist palm up as far as it felt comfortable. Combining the two marks I measured the wrist rotation as 35 degrees.

[Dan McEntee]

   How many of you ever watched Lew Woolard fly? He learned to fly the opposite of us. He pushed the top line to go up and pulled to go down. It would drive you crazy to watch him fly. He flew upright like we do inverted, and inverted like we do upright.

   I remember seeing Lew fly that way the first time I saw him fly in person at an early VSC!! It occurred to me that I have seen at least a few people fly "reversed" with the handle horizontal all the time, and moving the handle to the right is "up" and so on!! One of my R/C soaring buddies asked to fly one of my C/L models years ago before I took stunt up really seriously, and let him take the handle from me in the circle. He about had a spaz attack!! he concentrated on just keeping it level until I could get the handle back from him and we got the airplane down in one piece, but it scared the daylights out of him!! He aske me why I had the handle backwards!! He said that the horizontal position was the way he learned to fly 1/2A stuff as a kid from someone!! I haven't seen anyone else fly like that , though, since the late, great Lew Woolard!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

   I remember seeing Lew fly that way the first time I saw him fly in person at an early VSC!! It occurred to me that I have seen at least a few people fly "reversed" with the handle horizontal all the time, and moving the handle to the right is "up" and so on!! One of my R/C soaring buddies asked to fly one of my C/L models years ago before I took stunt up really seriously, and let him take the handle from me in the circle. He about had a spaz attack!! he concentrated on just keeping it level until I could get the handle back from him and we got the airplane down in one piece, but it scared the daylights out of him!! He aske me why I had the handle backwards!! He said that the horizontal position was the way he learned to fly 1/2A stuff as a kid from someone!! I haven't seen anyone else fly like that , though, since the late, great Lew Woolard!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

I would never actually risk a plane doing that, but it actually is a very natural position.  I am lost though trying to find any advantage.

Ken