Flying in the Wind

[donchandler]

  So yesterday I took 3 flights on two different Cardinals in totaly calm air and was well pleased with my success.

Today one of the Cardinals flown in an 8mph wind. Not a huge deal but the Cardinal bounces etc, so does my "Legacy" although not as bad.

Since I'm still learning here my question is do guys literaly have different planes for different weather, or make mods to the same plane they always fly, or just go with the weather?

Don

[Dennis Toth]

Don,
Wind is tricky. There are several "types" of wind that we encounter. Most of us fly at ballpark/soccer fields or tree ringed site - this gives wind that bounces or swirls is pretty turbulent and will drive you nuts trying to find down wind. The second type is open field "thermals" these then to pop up on those hot summer days with light winds - then all the sudden it gets dead calm and very bumpy with shifting wind. The thermals blow through and all is good until the next one. The last type is "open runway", with this the wind is straight from one direction and smooth. In runway wind you can fly at wind speeds that are twice that of the other two types.

Ok, how do you get through it? Well the first thing you need to know is when to stop. When you fly a bit you will get a feel for when its not FUN. That is your first indicator that you need to roll them up. In dead Calm lean to step back as you do manuevers to keep line tension. As you get into competition flying you need to push through the wind and learn to handle it. First trick with wind is open up your maneuvers. Bigger but good shapes score better than tight jerky ones.

Second, shorter lines - its an old trick but it works for those medium-high winds (say 10 - 14 mph). Have a second set of lines with handle that are 2' shorter (each foot of line length give about .1 sec difference in lap time for the same needle).

Third - high winds 15 -17 mph - add some tip weight (about 10%). This will increase line tension but if you pull hard corners will cause a bit of hinging, if you open them up it works fine.

Fourth - 18 and above - At this wind speed the ship gets pushed around a lot. It gets difficult to turn and whips up and pushed down at pullouts, control is the thing that you need to keep control you start with put on a smaller diameter prop, if needed, next add some tail weight (move the CG back in 1/8" increments).

At somewhere around 23 - 25 ish mph you really need to stop. Hope this gets the discussion going.

Best,       DennisT

[Randy Cuberly]

I think Dennis is right on in his instructions...except He's probably a little younger and braver than I am and I tend to quit around 16- 17 mph...especially if it's gusty...It's really not much fun after about 15 MPH no matter what you do.  I still remember watching Bill Werwadge in a flyoff at VSC a lot of years ago in a terrible 27 mph wind...it was an incredible feat to see.  Most of the maneuvers were actually pretty good...but then Billy is THE MAN...we humans have to settle for a little less!

To make a point of what Dennis said earlier, sometimes it's very turbulent even in relatively low wind in the 8-10 mph range and it can be sudden death at the bottom of the outside square loops or the four leaf clover...no matter what you do!

The one thing to remember in all this is that it takes a first class setup that is really well trimmed to survive the really bad stuff.  Control surfaces, control horns, pushrods etc must be very stiff to withstand the sudden highly increased loads. 

Most intermediate level fliers should probably not fly the full pattern in winds much over 12 mph or so...

My opinion of course!

Randy Cuberly

[RknRusty]

Interesting that this thread popped up today. Last night I was searching to see if anyone had noticed what I experienced Tuesday. I am a beginner with about 8 months of pattern flying experience. I posted this in another forum where less members fly stunt, and got a good answer from one member who also frequents Stunthangar. I'll re-post my question just to see what y'all think. Here's a copy of my question:

...(My) GlueRay(what I call my Skyray), though heavy at 37 oz., with the fp35 I can fly a respectable Beginner pattern with it. But something happened Tuesday at practice that bothers me. The closer I get to this weekend's contest, the more things I think up to fret over. As I have said, it's always windy at Fort Jackson, but the trees are a couple of hundred yards away, it was blowing straight down the RC runway where I fly, so not much swirling. The 15mph sock was full. I picked my reference point and took off to fly a pattern. After the wingover I pulled into my first inside loop going to 60 degrees on top to stay safe. After passing over the top it accelerated like an afterburner had kicked in and I had to pull full panic Up to keep it from bottoming out. I've never felt that before. So I aborted and went around a few times. The next time I felt a lull in the breeze, I did my 3 loops just fine and exited inverted. The wind was up again and I started my outsides, again with 60 degree tops... same thing, afterburners kick in and I'm pulling full Down to save it. I aborted the rest of the pattern and flew it out.

I have the control rod braced, but there is a tiny side to side movement when I hold the up leadout and force the elevator down, So little that I can't actually see the elevator move. I also have a fairly wide hinge gap where repairs I inherited have been made to the tail, but it's too gooky to get tape to seal it. I know y'all hate hinge gaps, but don't know if this is the sort of thing that a gap would specifically contribute to.
Too late to change much besides the control rod brace, but still curious, and a bit worried. But I expect only light wind, 8mph this weekend. And the plane will then be retired for it's new prettier, lighter and stiffer replacement soon to maiden
Rusty

[Randy Cuberly]

Well Rusty,
Read what I said before about very stiff control surfaces, pushrods, and control horns...
One other thing I would mention is that profiles have much more flexible aft fuselage sections and in turbulent condidtions this translates to torsional flex and stabilizer instability...draw your own conclusions from that, but put simply it means loss of control force and stability to varying extents! 

The wind up (what you called afterburner) is a result of wind whip and engine control...or more correctly loss of engine control...This is why Tuned pipes and now electric power has become so popular.  A good tuned pipe setup minimizes this speed up as does a properly throttled electric setup...BIG Difference!

My statement about intermediate fliers needing to give up at 10-12 mph or maybe even less in turbulent conditions wasn't to be critical.
It was simply aimed at some common facts.  Typical beginner to intermediate fliers often fly profiles and often have airplanes that are less than expertly trimmed...They seldom have the experience to know precisely where to enter a maneuver in really tough wind (this is extremely important)...and when to hedge a bet and make things bigger and or softer and most importantly how to play the line tension.  This all takes experience no matter how many times you're told how to do it.  There is little to no substitute for thousands of flights to be able to fly in windy conditions...You can add a bunch of airplanes to that also!

Remember that even the very best get bit by nasty wind occassionally!

Randy Cuberly

 

[RknRusty]

Okay Randy, I can live with that. A long way to go, skill wise and equipment wise. I shall continue to plow forth. So far I've notched less than a hundred flights and two planes. Gotta start somewhere. Thanks for the hard honest truth.
Rusty

[Brett Buck]

Well Rusty,
Read what I said before about very stiff control surfaces, pushrods, and control horns...
One other thing I would mention is that profiles have much more flexible aft fuselage sections and in turbulent condidtions this translates to torsional flex and stabilizer instability...draw your own conclusions from that, but put simply it means loss of control force and stability to varying extents! 

The wind up (what you called afterburner) is a result of wind whip and engine control...or more correctly loss of engine control...This is why Tuned pipes and now electric power has become so popular.  A good tuned pipe setup minimizes this speed up as does a properly throttled electric setup...BIG Difference!

My statement about intermediate fliers needing to give up at 10-12 mph or maybe even less in turbulent conditions wasn't to be critical.
It was simply aimed at some common facts.  Typical beginner to intermediate fliers often fly profiles and often have airplanes that are less than expertly trimmed...They seldom have the experience to know precisely where to enter a maneuver in really tough wind (this is extremely important)...and when to hedge a bet and make things bigger and or softer and most importantly how to play the line tension.  This all takes experience no matter how many times you're told how to do it.  There is little to no substitute for thousands of flights to be able to fly in windy conditions...You can add a bunch of airplanes to that also!

    Not much I would add to that. There's a reason we build these airplanes like tanks, why we use tuned pipe engines or electrics (and definitely not 35FPs), and why we had to fly those first 10000 flights.

   The basic mechanism of whipping up is unloading and loss of induced drag in the places where the wind "helps" you, and adding the windspeed to the airspeed. Look up "dynamic soaring" - its similar. A good engine setup will at least not make it worse, a perfect one will help you by adding and subtracting power when you need it to.

    Almost everything you hear us talk about when it comes to engines is based on tiny changes that has huge effects on the end result, usually for windy conditions.

    Brett

   

[RC Storick]

Or you could fly at Budder Park where the wind is always in your face and it blows straight up. Funny how  the wind works at Budder Park, It is always blowing into your face no matter what direction you are faced. When it hits the center of the circle it blows straight up. Ask anyone who has flown there.

I remember one year when I was a judge we moved 360 degrees around the circle between maneuvers.

[Bob Reeves]

<Snip>The wind up (what you called afterburner) is a result of wind whip and engine control...or more correctly loss of engine control...This is why Tuned pipes and now electric power has become so popular.  A good tuned pipe setup minimizes this speed up as does a properly throttled electric setup...BIG Difference!
Randy Cuber

Or a properly setup 4 stroke  

It's amazing what a difference an engine can do to increase your confidence when flying in high winds. To me the engine is the single most important piece of the puzzle.

[Tom Niebuhr]

There is bad air at one time or another everywhere. Particularly when there are any obstacles in the area. One of the most famous sites for this is at the Garden State Circle Burners. It is common to see judges on two different circles, back to back and they are in the proper position for their given circle!

Brett and others said it all. Thousands of flights help to give you the experience to handle it. There is a point where common sense says to call it a day.

There are some things you will learn, like "cheating" inside maneuvers to your left, outsides to your right and whipping into the first loop of the clover, but knowing how much to do it still takes those thousands of flights of experience.

Some of us so called called "Experts" have flown at contests with outrageously windy conditions, but we are probably certifiably crazy!

[donchandler]

All of these comments are very helpfull. As a new intermediate flyer I appreciate the help. At my home field I have cow pastuers on 3 sides, so wide open territory, but a long tall row of trees at the north side of the property and when the trees are swaying back and forth I know I usually don't fly because the winds at my circle get very swirly and the planes bounce. As to trimming for the wind, thats definatly a work in progress.

Don

[Jim Thomerson]

When it is windy, those who fly get judged, and those who scratch do not.  I have twice flown in very windy conditions with TD 09 powered airplanes.  I got second at a local contest with my Shark 15, where a couple of piped ships got blown in.  Some may remember my Jr Flite Streak flight at a VSC several years back, where flying was canceled a flight or two later.  In both cases the engine ran perfectly, and the airplanes had several hundred previous patterns on them.  In those circumstances, I fly a survival pattern, rather than a perfect pattern.

[Ward Van Duzer]

Tom Niebuhr just gave you a trick you can use. In rough or hard winds you need to learn how to "cheat" the wind. Your airplane is going to "wind up", as you described the afterburner! (That's WIND as you wind a watch!).  Instead of performing your maneuvers directly down wind move your inside loops to the left. Start at about 45 degrees. You may have to move more. And as he said, your outsides to the right. Don't ask me how I learned this. But it was at the '92 NATS!

Splat! (Very embarrassing...)

W.

[Steve Helmick]

If you use the "search" function here, the subject was well thrashed not too long ago...a month or maybe two at the most.    Steve

[Scott Richlen]

I remember the Nebraska Nats when it was blowing so hard.  Late in the day, when everyone else had practiced out, Jimmy Casales was still working.  He would fly the cloverleaf over and over again.  His plane just would not fully pull through the 1st loop of the clover - he always had to bail out early.  I recall that Walker won that Nats.  There were a string of Nats that Casales and Walker would be way out in front of everyone else.  It seemed to always come down to the wind.  If it was calm, Casales would win.  If it was windy, Walker would win.  At least, that's how I recall it.  It was extremely exciting to watch the two them shoot it out.

Scott

[Brett Buck]

Brett and others said it all. Thousands of flights help to give you the experience to handle it. There is a point where common sense says to call it a day.

   A key, when learning, is to go one flight past where common sense might dictate.

     Brett

[James Mills]

Or you could fly at Budder Park where the wind is always in your face and it blows straight up. Funny how  the wind works at Budder Park, It is always blowing into your face no matter what direction you are faced. When it hits the center of the circle it blows straight up. Ask anyone who has flown there.

I remember one year when I was a judge we moved 360 degrees around the circle between maneuvers.

That's why most times I don't move the judges too much, I figure the wind will change by the time they get moved

James

[Randy Cuberly]

   A key, when learning, is to go one flight past where common sense might dictate.

     Brett

Yeah, I've been doing that a lot lately...of course I'm flying one of Whitely's airplanes. 

Randy Cuberly

[Shug Emery]

This is real good stuff. I got out today to finally get the Electric Baby Lightning Streak in the air and it was really windy. I went against common sense and flew all the same. Plane was bouncing all over the place...exciting for sure.
This was my first control line flight in 19 years so not sure if it was me....the wind....maybe tail heavy.....handle line spacing too wide?
I shot some video I'll have up in the morn.
Logic dictates I should have not flown but I have had that Streak just sitting for a while so I had to go.
Doing some repair and adding flaps now.
It was very much fun. Whoooo Buddy!
Shug

[Ted Fancher]

Interesting that this thread popped up today. Last night I was searching to see if anyone had noticed what I experienced Tuesday. I am a beginner with about 8 months of pattern flying experience. I posted this in another forum where less members fly stunt, and got a good answer from one member who also frequents Stunthangar. I'll re-post my question just to see what y'all think. Here's a copy of my question:

...(My) GlueRay(what I call my Skyray), though heavy at 37 oz., with the fp35 I can fly a respectable Beginner pattern with it. But something happened Tuesday at practice that bothers me. The closer I get to this weekend's contest, the more things I think up to fret over. As I have said, it's always windy at Fort Jackson, but the trees are a couple of hundred yards away, it was blowing straight down the RC runway where I fly, so not much swirling. The 15mph sock was full. I picked my reference point and took off to fly a pattern. After the wingover I pulled into my first inside loop going to 60 degrees on top to stay safe. After passing over the top it accelerated like an afterburner had kicked in and I had to pull full panic Up to keep it from bottoming out. I've never felt that before. So I aborted and went around a few times. The next time I felt a lull in the breeze, I did my 3 loops just fine and exited inverted. The wind was up again and I started my outsides, again with 60 degree tops... same thing, afterburners kick in and I'm pulling full Down to save it. I aborted the rest of the pattern and flew it out.

I have the control rod braced, but there is a tiny side to side movement when I hold the up leadout and force the elevator down, So little that I can't actually see the elevator move. I also have a fairly wide hinge gap where repairs I inherited have been made to the tail, but it's too gooky to get tape to seal it. I know y'all hate hinge gaps, but don't know if this is the sort of thing that a gap would specifically contribute to.
Too late to change much besides the control rod brace, but still curious, and a bit worried. But I expect only light wind, 8mph this weekend. And the plane will then be retired for it's new prettier, lighter and stiffer replacement soon to maiden
Rusty

Rusty,

From your description I'm guessing that doing loops with your Skyray in the wind feels something like the following:  You pass dead downwind and enter the loop.  The entry is more or less normal or maybe even a little more responsive than in "good" air as it goes up and over the top and back into the wind.  On the way down, however, that normal or more aggressive rate of pitch change deteriorates and, as the airplane accelerates downwind, you find yourself giving full up elevator to prevent a reunion with terra firma...literally hanging it on the up line and praying it will win the race with the ground!  You've so far been lucky and were able to complete the loop, give up on the last two and thank your lucky stars you've still got a one piece airplane to complete six or seven minutes of level flight before hoping to land with it in one piece!

To add insult to injury the local hot shot takes off shortly thereafter and completes a very presentable pattern!  Hate it when that happens!

One of the worst combinations you can takeoff into when the wind is blowing is an airplane with a lot of excess power/thrust/RPM,prop pitch  availability (the capability of producing a lot more power and/or speed  than you set it for under ideal conditions) and a too forward center of gravity.  When you hang an FP .35 on the front of a Skyray along with enough fuel to fly a pattern the chances of that Skyray being more nose heavy than ideal is very high.  When an engine capable of producing a lot of power is "throttled back" (a rich needle setting coupled with a comparatively high prop pitch (anything over four inches for the FP) is coupled with a CG that is more forward than necessary for stability you have a set up custom made to accelerate in the wind.

A good ballpark figure for a flapless airplane is to set the "dry" (empty tank) center of gravity at 15% of the chord.  If the the chord on the Skyray is 10 inches (that's probably pretty close) the unfueled airplane should balance longitudinally (fore and aft) at an inch and a half back from the leading edge.  With the FP .35 you should utilize a prop with a four inch pitch and plan to launch it at a round 10K RPM for a starting place.  Launching with a low pitch prop at an RPM much closer to peak torque will provide an engine run much less willing to speed up when the wind is blowing.  Having the CG as far aft as allows the airplane to remain stable in level flight at the end of the flight will minimize the difference in control inputs required between going "uphill" into the wind at the start of your loops and downhill with the wind at your tail on the back side of loops.

There's been a lot written about why the foregoing is to your advantage but, to benefit from its validity, it isn't necessary to be conversant with it all.  If you want to learn more do some searches on the forums about trim, CGs, etc.

One thing you will need to think about, however, is the line spacing on your handle.  If you find your CG is well forward of that 15% aft of the leading edge criteria, you'll almost certainly want to narrow your line spacing at the handle because the response rate will change dramatically in ideal air as well as in the wind if you add tail weight (or, better, remove nose weight).

Ted Fancher

[RknRusty]

Ted that's a perfect description of my aborted loops, both inside and outside. Regarding the engine choice, this is the old Ray Copeland Skyray that weighs in at 37.8 ounces.

I'm trying to type on a stupid phone up in Huntersville now, so I'll get back with a better reply and a flight report Sunday night.
Meanwhile, thanks for the tips,
Rusty

[Shug Emery]

This is my flight in the high winds yesterday. A lot of the info above in this thread describes what I felt happening. Though it may have been a dodgy hand and rust pilot .
The plane was going low to the ground at the end of the loops. Wind at my back but where I place the loops could be improved. This is a very informative thread. Thanks everyone.
Shug

[Lauri Malila]

    Not much I would add to that. There's a reason we build these airplanes like tanks, why we use tuned pipe engines or electrics (and definitely not 35FPs), and why we had to fly those first 10000 flights.

   The basic mechanism of whipping up is unloading and loss of induced drag in the places where the wind "helps" you, and adding the windspeed to the airspeed. Look up "dynamic soaring" - its similar. A good engine setup will at least not make it worse, a perfect one will help you by adding and subtracting power when you need it to.

    Almost everything you hear us talk about when it comes to engines is based on tiny changes that has huge effects on the end result, usually for windy conditions.

    Brett

Stiffness, stiffness, stiffness. (Not necessary in that order)

In free flight it's easy; if rules say 8m/s wind limit, we go out to fly when it's 12. After a while like that, life suddenly becomes easier.
And as my dear frienf Per says; to be good at something, it takes about 10000h to learn it. He is 2 time World Champ and current European champ.. L

[Akihiro Danjo]

Stiffness, stiffness, stiffness. (Not necessary in that order)

In free flight it's easy; if rules say 8m/s wind limit, we go out to fly when it's 12. After a while like that, life suddenly becomes easier.
And as my dear frienf Per says; to be good at something, it takes about 10000h to learn it. He is 2 time World Champ and current European champ.. L

That must be the reason why I fly Indoor. 
Aki

[john e. holliday]

Watched the video and the plane does look a little touchy.   You may be stalling the plane on the downward side of the loop.   I have to ask what are you using for flying lines?  If Dacron, ditch them and go search for the new mono=filament lines guys are now using.   I have a set, but have not used them yet as I am still trying to learn the knot for tying the ends.   Anyway stay with it.   

[RknRusty]

....Anyway stay with it.   

Shug looks like the type of guy that'll bulldog it, never give up until he gets it. That's what it takes. Good going Shug.

I think I heard someone, maybe Will Davis say they thought you used to live in our control line region near Huntersville. Is that right?
Rusty

[Shug Emery]

Watched the video and the plane does look a little touchy.   You may be stalling the plane on the downward side of the loop.   I have to ask what are you using for flying lines?  If Dacron, ditch them and go search for the new mono=filament lines guys are now using.   I have a set, but have not used them yet as I am still trying to learn the knot for tying the ends.   Anyway stay with it.    

Went out again today. Still windy but flew better ....until I pushed it and crashed again. Well, that is why I got it. To learn and train. I did reduce line spacing at handle and added about 1/2 ounce of weight to the nose. Still used the dacron lines and yes they are draggy. I was too impatient to change to .008s as the softballers were starting to arrive. Finished there and drove to go and find the Piston Poppers flying site since I have sent in my dues and re-upped AMA. There was a feller sitting in his van with that look. We both had planes and he is just kinda getting back into CL flying. We had the best day))))) My cheeks hurt from grinning. Was very windy but I put up the old Sig DeweyBird 1/2A for the first run in 19 years. Then I went for the old Ringmaster Jr. with the Fox .15 that is a 1959 edition. Bob Whitney made me a muffler and I was beaming at how it flew! I was being very conservative in my flying. Then...put up the Bi-Slob for the first time. Need an 11-4 prop but flew on a 10-6 then 10-5. Old OS .35 set real rich. What an experience. Gonna take me a bit to figure it out....but I will.

Shug looks like the type of guy that'll bulldog it, never give up until he gets it. That's what it takes. Good going Shug.

I think I heard someone, maybe Will Davis say they thought you used to live in our control line region near Huntersville. Is that right?
Rusty

Oh....I bulldogged today. Glad I can run backwards pretty good. Seen you do it on video!
Had a fantastic day of flying (read above). Did not fly the Prowler...a bit gun shy in that wind. Met a new flying friend Rick and he had an Oriental and a Skyray.
I grew up in Charlotte out on the west side...Coulwood off of Hwy 16. Went to that field way long ago. May have flow but don't remember.
I will have some video of today out soonest.
Thanks for the inspiration.

[Igor Burger]

Since I'm still learning here my question is do guys literaly have different planes for different weather, or make mods to the same plane they always fly, or just go with the weather?

I do not have different model and I do change only for lap time. Usually I fly little slower in wind. However flying in wind needs beside pilot skill well trimmed model. And not only trimmed. It must be also well designed to fly at the same trim in calm and also in wind. Last WCh in Bulgaria was good example, we flew it total calm and also in strong wind, guys standing at anemometer told me that I had sometimes short 16m/s gusts (36mph) and in turbullent air you cannot do modiffications for every figure regarding actual air kick :-)))). If not, sometimes you will see you need also trim changes in wind.

The best way is to trim model in calm condition and then retrim in wind. You will see what you had to change. Optimal is to find only one modification which covers all. For example friend of mine simply adds little bit clay to tail, it moves CG little back what will work similar to moving LO front and model does not need so much muscles as it is more sensitive. And it is easily repeatable modiffication.