News:


  • March 29, 2024, 01:11:21 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: flying in strong wind  (Read 1667 times)

Online Matt Curtis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
flying in strong wind
« on: May 08, 2021, 01:56:26 PM »
Has anyone tried flying in strong wind by whipping your airplane. ama magazine had plans for a haboo wind flyer that is a profile plane without an engine. I would assume you would have to use shorter lines to be able to whip the airplane fast enough to get it started and keep it going and you might be able to do lazy eights ? Could this be done just by yourself without anyone launching the plane and would you start with the wind at your back and then whip the airplane to get it in the air and then keep going to get enough speed to keep it flying? I would like to fly when it is windy as we have lots of windy days. Any tips on doing this would help before I would go out and give it a whirl or should I just fly my 2 line stunt kite instead? I assume you would need at least 20mph to do this?

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6824
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2021, 02:22:00 PM »
  Wind flying has been around as long as there have been C/L models and wind! There are lots of stories of guys flying extra maneuvers at the NATS and such after the engine quit. Most of these guys are from Kansas or Texas where it blows more often that not. There was a lengthy article in American Modeler magazine in the early 70's I think specifically on wind flying. The guy that wrote the article favored a U-Reely to get airborne and then reel out what line length he thought he would need for the conditions that day. I have never done it but have heard and read  lots about it.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline De Hill

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1197
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2021, 03:26:05 PM »
You could ask Joe Gilbert how to wind fly.
De Hill

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4458
    • owner
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2021, 03:50:07 PM »
When the wind is up, I stay at home.  I find I don't learn a thing and can't improve my pattern skills when having to fight the wind.  I know, they say "practice in wind because contests are always in wind".  Well, after 75 years in C/L  I no longer am interested in contesting.  Flying a good pattern is my personal struggle.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 04:28:47 PM »
It is a very useful lost art.  I learned how to do it in Virginia when I was in my teens and have done it on occasion ever since.  Depending on the plane any wind over 10mph will work but to really have fun it needs to be near 20.  I have built one ship dedicated to wind flying.  It had a Nobler wing and tail with a slab fuselage and no motor.  It took two to get it in the air but once airborne you could fly as long as you wanted.  Lazy 8's are the main way to build up speed but once you get it moving and learn how to keep the speed up you can do most anything as long as you kept it downwind.  Short lines and yes I have flown alone using a U-Realy hooked to a Flight Streak Jr. with a busted Fox 15 for nose weight.  Easiest way though is to get some old POS engine and put a tiny tank on it to get you in the air.

The launch is critical.  You have to find someone dumb enough to run with the plane over his head for about 1/4 lap starting up wind and throw it just before downwind and you have to be ready to whip it like crazy as soon as he lets go.   Just as the nose starts to turn into the wind you can start into a lazy 8.  A couple of eights and you will have found the optimal turn point (which is well before you get dead into the wind) and you are good to fly until your mother says "Dinner is ready".  I have personally stayed up over 30 minutes.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Dick Byron

  • Vendor
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 513
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2021, 06:24:41 PM »
Windiest city by average ................................ BOSTON

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2021, 08:12:41 PM »
It is a very useful lost art.  I learned how to do it in Virginia when I was in my teens and have done it on occasion ever since.  Depending on the plane any wind over 10mph will work but to really have fun it needs to be near 20.  I have built one ship dedicated to wind flying.  It had a Nobler wing and tail with a slab fuselage and no motor.  It took two to get it in the air but once airborne you could fly as long as you wanted.  Lazy 8's are the main way to build up speed but once you get it moving and learn how to keep the speed up you can do most anything as long as you kept it downwind.  Short lines and yes I have flown alone using a U-Realy hooked to a Flight Streak Jr. with a busted Fox 15 for nose weight.  Easiest way though is to get some old POS engine and put a tiny tank on it to get you in the air.

The launch is critical.  You have to find someone dumb enough to run with the plane over his head for about 1/4 lap starting up wind and throw it just before downwind and you have to be ready to whip it like crazy as soon as he lets go.   Just as the nose starts to turn into the wind you can start into a lazy 8.  A couple of eights and you will have found the optimal turn point (which is well before you get dead into the wind) and you are good to fly until your mother says "Dinner is ready".  I have personally stayed up over 30 minutes.

Ken

Ken's been there, done that.  I've never done it with a U-Reely, but that might be the easiest way to start.  My wind flying was all done when the engine quit after a powered launch.  On 60-foot lines.  And the airplane makes a LOT of difference.

I couldn't justify building a special model for it and used mostly combat models.  One was the Sterling T-Square; it had replaceable motor mounts and mine needed several replacements.  The airplane literally fell out of the air at some point - repeatedly.  I didn't mind much because mine was covered with Silron (silk-rayon blend) and was sturdy as a brick.

My favorite was the "Nadir" - a takeoff on Don Still's NObody.  At 18 ounces on close to 500 square inches of wing and a thick airfoil it didn't take much wind to keep that one up pretty much as long as you wanted.

The "trick", of course, is to keep the airspeed up.  Judicial use of all whipping techniques is appropriate.  And yes, lazy eights are the obvious first move - but not a limitation by any means.  Just ask yourself what you can do in half of a circle when you have airspeed.

I have an especially fond memory from an AAA combat contest here about a hundred years ago (1959).  My opponent's pit crew stepped on his streamer when launching at the beginning of a match; the judges immediately alerted us we would be rematched.

When his engine quit, the judges hollered out we'd be restarted after my engine had about 5 minutes to cool off.  So, when my engine quit, I decided to wind fly that 5 or so minutes away.

In the rematch, my opponent never started his engine.  He fiddled with his prop, removed the glow plug, toyed with his battery …  To this day, it must be said I won that match by wind flying!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

PS: The (Riley Wooten) Quicker in the center of the photo below is mine.  When we flew on a snow-covered field on cold Minnesota winter days, you can bet that airplane did a lot of wind flying before I put it down 'cuz the sound of a hot engine landing in cold snow is outright ugly!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2021, 06:56:37 AM »
mostly combat models.  One was the Sterling T-Square; it had replaceable motor mounts and mine needed several replacements.  The airplane literally fell out of the air at some point - repeatedly.
I thought I was the only person in the world tricked into buying one of them. LL~

Never thought of using some wind flying to cool the engine - good idea.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2562
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2021, 08:15:28 AM »
Air Classic.     I like the picture of the three combat models. I can relate to it as we are the same age. I lived in NYstate so had similar weather. Looks like K&B on Omega on right hand one and OS Max or Johnson motors on the other  two with nylon prop. Never did much wind flying but saw Arrowsmifh do the pattern at Ithaca in late 1950’s after his motor quite with Nobler.
EddyR
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2021, 11:19:06 PM »
Air Classic.     I like the picture of the three combat models. I can relate to it as we are the same age. I lived in NYstate so had similar weather. Looks like K&B on Omega on right hand one and OS Max or Johnson motors on the other  two with nylon prop. Never did much wind flying but saw Arrowsmifh do the pattern at Ithaca in late 1950’s after his motor quite with Nobler.
EddyR

Eddy, I think we were really lucky to have flown in those times.  In my hometown, instead of complaining about "noise" when we flew, entire families brought their lawn chairs out to watch.   A major corporation saw fit to grant us flying privileges on land they weren't using, every day of the week if we wanted within reasonable hours.

Adults drove many of us "kids" considerable distances to out-of-town contests, even though they didn't fly themselves or have kids that did.  They just enjoyed watching, and it fell into the realm of "community service" at the time.  Like so many of the Scout leaders I admired.

I doubt most here realize how much America has changed in yours and my lifetimes.  I know many here have avoided the self-centeredness so in vogue today, but I really miss some of that "village" that raised us "kids".  And I've personally spent a great deal of time with young men and women trying to pay ahead for at least a small fraction of the gifts older generations gave me.  Yes, we were lucky!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2021, 11:24:16 PM »
The Haboob ...

Published in the December 1985 issue of Model Aviation and designed specifically for wind flying - with or without engine.  Simply add nose weight if not using an engine.  Designed by John (and another) Hunton, who also brought us "Monsters and Monoplanes" as well as several "conventional" designs ...
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13717
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2021, 12:42:40 AM »
You can use a lot of the wind-flying techniques with the engine running too, particularly taking advantage of whip-up, or killing it, by maneuver placement. Vertical 8, say, start it just a hair *before* downwind, count on that whipping it up, then use the extra speed to assist getting through the top loop. Or adjust the bias in the round loops to fine-tune how well it tracks - if it wants to come out low all the time, bias it "positive", that is, it has a headwind component at the bottom, if it wants to come out high all the time, bias it "negative" (or less positive) so it has a tailwind component at the bottom.

   If you can fly in the wind without the engine running at all, obviously you can use it to help you when the engine is running. Interestingly, the engine tends to fight the same effects, so depending on your engine setup, you have to experiment with how much help you can get, and where.


    Brett

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2021, 01:21:19 AM »
You can use a lot of the wind-flying techniques with the engine running too, particularly taking advantage of whip-up, or killing it, by maneuver placement. Vertical 8, say, start it just a hair *before* downwind, count on that whipping it up, then use the extra speed to assist getting through the top loop. Or adjust the bias in the round loops to fine-tune how well it tracks - if it wants to come out low all the time, bias it "positive", that is, it has a headwind component at the bottom, if it wants to come out high all the time, bias it "negative" (or less positive) so it has a tailwind component at the bottom.

   If you can fly in the wind without the engine running at all, obviously you can use it to help you when the engine is running. Interestingly, the engine tends to fight the same effects, so depending on your engine setup, you have to experiment with how much help you can get, and where.

Brett


Very true Brett, it's all about managing airspeed.  Some of us started flying when many of our engines would barely lift the airplane, much less fight the wind, so "whipping" became second nature.  With the right airplane and some technique, it's possible to fly the full circle ...
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13717
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2021, 09:35:50 AM »

Very true Brett, it's all about managing airspeed.  Some of us started flying when many of our engines would barely lift the airplane, much less fight the wind, so "whipping" became second nature.  With the right airplane and some technique, it's possible to fly the full circle ...

   Greatly improved propulsion has made it far less effective, but not completely useless. Of course, greatly improved propulsion has also made it far less necessary, too!  That's why there used to be so few of the "old masters" who managed it far better than everyone else, and now, while there are still fantastic "new masters" like David, Paul, Orestes, the overall performance of the airplanes has brought many more people into the mix.

     Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2021, 11:56:25 AM »
   Greatly improved propulsion has made it far less effective, but not completely useless. Of course, greatly improved propulsion has also made it far less necessary, too!  That's why there used to be so few of the "old masters" who managed it far better than everyone else, and now, while there are still fantastic "new masters" like David, Paul, Orestes, the overall performance of the airplanes has brought many more people into the mix.

     Brett
You make a very good point.  Mastery of the elements used to be what separated the champions from the very good fliers.  When I was in my competitive prime wind was not something anyone avoided.  You knew that it was going to blow at a contest so you practiced when it was time to practice.  Now, if it is over 10mph it is hard to find anybody to fly with and this makes no sense with the modern hardware.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Gordon Van Tighem

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 420
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2021, 12:14:59 PM »
Here’s one.
Gord VT
MAAC 3738L, Life Member
AMA C3738L

Offline Steve Berry

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2021, 12:27:56 PM »
Here’s one.

Looks like that one would start flying with the aid of a catapault and stooge. Do I have that right?

Interesting design.

Offline EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2562
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2021, 03:36:57 PM »
   Above I said I did not fly much in the wind but Bill Rich and I would practice in the wind so we could do it if needed.
 About 8-9 years ago it was so windy at Huntersville that no one would fly. Finally Tom Dixon flew and did quite well. I was suppose to judge another event but no one was flying so I entered Expert and did every trick with my little Tucker. I got through it and won. The hardest part of the flight was getting on the ground. I think that was my last win and one of the last time I entered a contest.
  About Bill, He wanted to be ready for any conditions he would run into at the NATs so we set aside windy days for him to fly and me watch and recommend how to best use the wind. I remember Bill's first SV-11 with the Tigre .60 in it doing very well compared to the bigger planes he had been flying The best all weather plane I had was the Cobra. I built three and they were better than the Juno which I used a lot. I was running the .56 in the .40 case in those days and I had so much usable power it was always fun to fly.
EddyR
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Dave Hull

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2021, 01:15:57 AM »
I've seen experienced flyers come off the upper circle at Huntersville during a stong breeze with a solemn look on their face. And pack up their equipment. Apparently the wind coming across the trees on the ridge can really make for some goofy air.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1773
    • AirClassix on eBay
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2021, 07:00:46 AM »
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6037
Re: flying in strong wind
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2021, 09:24:28 AM »

And a rather sophisticated model it is ...

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=12657


That is nothing but cool.  Never thought of the catapult.   I built one similar from a busted up Nobler back in the early 60's.  Having someone run with it worked OK in light winds 10-15 but didn't work out well if the wind was blowing faster than he could run throw and 15-20 is where the real fun starts. Really keeps the fuel costs down and the only complaints came from you not wanting to give up the circle LL~

Wonder if you catapult this one with or into the wind.  I can see both working since the cat should get it up to > wind speed letting you whip it into the wind and start the process; or into the wind launch and blasting it directly into the wind might let you start the process immediately.  Wouldn't it be cool to have video of some of our past greats flying these.

Any tech info out there for the catapult?  I would think something like a sailplane hi-start might work.  You could position it to give you about 1/4 lap of acceleration with a quick disconnect using up elevator.  Maybe a short burst ramp might work as well.  Anything to get it airborn with enough lift to whip.

It sure would be nice to be able to fly when it is too windy to haul rocks.

Ken
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 09:45:57 AM by Ken Culbertson »
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here