Author Topic: IMPACT MASTER new all composite PA Model (Read 8159 times)

jose modesto · « **on:** November 04, 2010, 07:19:16 AM »

IMPACT MASTER My new all composite carbon fiber model.
STEVE FITTON this model is for you "you Shark Hater"LOL
Model consist of a composite IMPACT fuse,stab,elevator,fin,rudder and a PATTERN MASTER 51 wing
Impact Master wing was built using 1/4 vaccum ed bagged 1/32" balsa core with 2.5oz carbon fiber cloth and .5oz glass cloth wing panels
PA75 powered this motor is a beast with 13x4.5 Bolly and 6.5oz 5% fuel.
wing area 715"SI 11" nose 18.5" tail 62.5 span Model weight 69.5 oz with header muffler with 75 pipe 72oz
Model complete take apart with removable flying surfaces just like the impact article
Jose Modesto

jose modesto · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2010, 07:24:30 AM »

Additional photos

Joe Mig · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2010, 07:47:33 AM »

My son can't believe how light it is.
You and the plane are graceful together in flight.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2010, 08:26:03 AM »

Is this that fuselage you had hidden in the trunk of your car all these years?! Outstanding to see it all finished and flying!

Now you can crush your fellow Shark people with a true BOM plane!

Zuriel Armstrong · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2010, 08:53:29 AM »

That's pretty cool. Just curious, did you make an integral fuel tank? You could use a plastic tank stopper and adjust to your hearts content!

jose modesto · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2010, 09:41:03 AM »

Steve these are all new fuses with a balsa core to reduce weight. this is the model i wanted to fly at Huntersville maybe in the spring.
i will attach another photo of your approved BOM models.
Steve i would like you to clarify which interpretation of the BOM should i build my models in order to get your approval. i have flown under so many different rules that at times BOM can be confusing. Steve i guess you did not like the 2004 rule?

Zuriel i use a Big Jim vented 6.5 oz metal tank can you please elaborate on your thoughts on possible tanks, Zuriel are you suggesting to just create a compartment using the fuse as the tank that would be interesting and much lighter.

Photo #1 shows the interior fuse with CF reinforcement at landing gear
Photo #2 some Steve approved BOM models. Steve that's the PM that i lost at the Flushing meet I really miss that model

Steve BOM has ben interpreted in so many ways that complete components and 1.5hr of of skilled labor, Lost foam wings and tails by others the 51% rule were do you draw the line 1969,1973,the 1980s and all those foam components the 1990's with full components built by others???
Steve none of the above is written in a confrontational way just conversation between friends.
JOSE MODESTO

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2010, 09:52:36 AM »

Getting hit with a hacking cough after sanding the balsa for a few hours made me think of you, Jose. Is this a balsa allergy I'm having. Fly that thing. Looks great.

jose modesto · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2010, 10:02:28 AM »

Dennis the reason why i build planes this way is to minimize handling carving and above all sanding. Dennis i just cant sand Balsa anymore.
the wings with the foam inserts require no ribs and almost no balsa sanding as i use 1/32" wood for all construction.See photo large composite Electric model
Jose Modesto

Zuriel Armstrong · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2010, 10:29:26 AM »

Jose,

It occurred to me you could make the tank an integral part of the fuse. Either by shaping it like a metal or plastic tank or an custom shape you could imagine. The F-1 former would now have a hole for a Du-Bro type stopper and you could still plumb the tank in any configuration you desire. Too much time off I guess. The technology is fascinating to me.

RandySmith · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2010, 10:42:27 AM »

Hi Jose

Really looks great, You have done a very good job, I will look forward to seeing you new ship fly. How many flights do you have on it. I think this is a real piece of work to get the weight you have,
I know how long you have been working on this and how many long hours you have put in..Look like it has really paid off for you.
Below is the BOM that AMA has in its rules, in case anyone is confuse about it. I think the proposals for new rules failed so this will be in force in 2011
I add the below in only as what the AMA has put in force, This is not added to start a BOM arguement

6. Builder of Model. The CD shall make every
reasonable effort to assure himself that each flier has
completely “constructed’ the model(s) he uses in
competition, including the covering where used, with
“constructed” to be interpreted as the action required to
complete a model starting with no more prefabrication than
the amount used in the average kit (“average kit” is
interpreted by Control Line Aerobatics as a model that may
consist of precut, unassembled parts or assembled
(uncovered) subcomponents such as wings, horizontal and
vertical stab, fuselage; requiring a few hours of assembly
time and covering). Models which are completely
prefabricated (“completely prefabricated” is interpreted as
the model is ready to fly out of the box or in a few minutes
(less than an hour) of assembly time.) and require only a
few minutes (less than an hour) of unskilled effort for their
completion shall be excluded from competition. (Control
Aerobatics additionally interprets that any model, that is
pre-covered in the box is excluded from competition). In
the case of rubber-powered models (excluding Indoor
duration models), commercially available balsa, plastic, and
hardwood propellers may be used. Materials and design
may be obtained from any source, including kits. The
builder-of-the-model rule applies to every AMA event
unless specifically noted otherwise in the rules governing
that event.

jose modesto · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2010, 12:58:14 PM »

Randy thanks for your kind words,yes it has been a long haul but the journey and assistance of some great modelers(Windy,Hunt,Randy,Yatzenko's,K Minato Al Rabe,Tom Morris and Dale and Derrick Barry) etc. has made it that much better. The conversation in your room at the Nat's were very helpfull to me in this endeavor.

I have to give Windy the majority of the credit as his Tapes on building the wings for miss Ashley formed the basis for my composite construction. my models today are drastically different in construction,materials and methods from windy but without him i would not have a starting point. Thanks again to windy U (El mundro)
Randy about the PA75 this motor is a beast the power is really overwhelming at times specially when i run it on a header muffler the break is just to strong for this model. Randy which way should i attack this
some backround
5% Sig fuel 20%oil
Bolly or magic prop 13x4.5 or 4.7
i fly mostly close to sea level 6.5oz with header muffler 7.5 oz with 75 pipe 28 flights so far
Note: on pipe motor much better behaved but model balance point moves back and i don't want to add nose weight.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2010, 01:06:39 PM »

Jose, that is one awesome model. And you did it your way. Do you have pics of the molds?

Ted Fancher · « **Reply #12 on:** November 04, 2010, 01:08:42 PM »

Wonderful work, Jose. Hope it flies as well as it looks.

Is the black color paint or simply the CF and gel coat??

Ted

Howard Rush · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2010, 01:47:38 PM »

You are getting really good at this. What weight carbon cloth did you use?

jose modesto · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2010, 02:16:33 PM »

Hy Ted miss you and miss Shareen at the Nat's would love to see you back. the black is mostly the carbon fiber color with a little rattle can Duply color at the construction seams (perimeter of wing and fuse)
Doc Holliday i will include some photos of wing,fuse and stab molds
photo#1 wing mold the black is a tooling resin the green if fiberglass cloth with epoxy
Photo#2 wing fuse and stab molds
photo #3 wing molds,1/4 wing panel and foam wing plug with finish removed

jose modesto · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2010, 02:29:27 PM »

Howard i used 2.4oz/sy when i purchased this item it sold for $80 /ly now its $160/ly thus my new model wings are made with .5 glass cloth one layer each side specially if built as a lost foam wing. Howard I'm going to cut out the solid wind panels to completely mimic a lost foam wing but with the molded tips you know how us stunt flyer's are it must be lighter.
The use of carbon fiber was only that i wanted to have an all carbon ship it is not required although the fuse is much easier and stiffer with this material. I guess I'm going to spring for the material as the fuselages come out So nice.
Photo #1 1/4 wing panel
photo#2 Impact master 2 with Howards and Pauls 1992 stab
photo #3 front end shot of IM3
Jose Modesto

proparc · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2010, 03:12:23 PM »

Nice work Jose.

jose modesto · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2010, 03:42:50 PM »

Thanks Milton. I don't know if i should thank you or curse you for giving me the Stunt Desease LOL
for those that don't know Milton and I grew up together in queens new york from the ages of 10 to 17 he was the first person that i saw fly a control line model at the tender age of 11. Milton and I as kids made a pack to wind the Nat's and the world championship I'm still at it some 44 years later. Only if we had parental support how far we could of gotten as kids.(our parents being recent immigrants worked very hard not a knock on our parents) Thanks my friend. How is Mom?
Milton here are the 3 composite IMPACT MASTERS
Photo #1 IM 2 and 3
Photo #2 IM 1 this model if foam carbon fiber mat and glass cloth
Jose Modesto

Les McDonald · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2010, 04:01:12 PM »

Jose,
I am totally impressed with your obviously successful efforts.
Your thanks to Windy and the other guys that helped or inspired your program only increase our respect for you.

jose modesto · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2010, 04:28:41 PM »

Les McDonald these kind words coming from one of my heroes i could not ask for anything better.
We all stand on the SHOULDERS OF GIANTS. just reading your stunt Chronicles in Stunt News and the current Thread in this forum on the polliwog airfoil and learning that the Nobler has a relation to Hi Johnson,Bob Palmer etc. control line stunt is evolutionary and i think that giving credit for those that came before us does not make us weak or diminish our accomplishments.
All of us in the stunt community have heroes for me the start was Bob Lampione and Gene Schaffer as they competed and represented Flushing Meadows park NY, MY PARK. As a 13 yearold he won the nats and Gene had 4 second place finishes and represented the USA in numerous world competitions.
Les something funny to this day Bob Lampione is still my hero and i get to fly,build and talk airplanes every day. I get to be a kid every time he is around what a sport.
Les a couple of photos taken by me of your model at the 1984 worlds champs
Jose Modesto

RandySmith · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2010, 06:31:34 PM »

Quote from: jose modesto on November 04, 2010, 12:58:14 PM

Randy thanks for your kind words,yes it has been a long haul but the journey and assistance of some great modelers(Windy,Hunt,Randy,Yatzenko's,K Minato Al Rabe,Tom Morris and Dale and Derrick Barry) etc. has made it that much better. The conversation in your room at the Nat's were very helpfull to me in this endeavor.

I have to give Windy the majority of the credit as his Tapes on building the wings for miss Ashley formed the basis for my composite construction. my models today are drastically different in construction,materials and methods from windy but without him i would not have a starting point. Thanks again to windy U (El mundro)
Randy about the PA75 this motor is a beast the power is really overwhelming at times specially when i run it on a header muffler the break is just to strong for this model. Randy which way should i attack this
some backround
5% Sig fuel 20%oil
Bolly or magic prop 13x4.5 or 4.7
i fly mostly close to sea level 6.5oz with header muffler 7.5 oz with 75 pipe 28 flights so far
Note: on pipe motor much better behaved but model balance point moves back and i don't want to add nose weight.

Jose
You can control this by either adding .008 head shim, mix you 5% fuel with FAI fuel and use 2.5%, and/or if it hits too strong install a smaller venturie.
The motor has mild timing and is ultra adjustable to get about any break as soft or hard as you like or run a all 4 cycle mode
I would also NOT use a 13 x 4.5, too small, either use the wide UC 13 x 4.7 or use the 13.6 x 4.5 3 blade

Randy

Garf · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2010, 08:15:45 PM »

I'd like to know more about the prop.

jose modesto · « **Reply #22 on:** November 04, 2010, 08:31:57 PM »

Randy Smith sells them Magic props or Mejzlik props

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #23 on:** November 05, 2010, 09:16:07 AM »

Quote from: jose modesto on November 04, 2010, 12:58:14 PM

Randy about the PA75 this motor is a beast the power is really overwhelming at times specially when i run it on a header muffler the break is just to strong for this model. Randy which way should i attack this
some backround
5% Sig fuel 20%oil
Bolly or magic prop 13x4.5 or 4.7
i fly mostly close to sea level 6.5oz with header muffler 7.5 oz with 75 pipe 28 flights so far
Note: on pipe motor much better behaved but model balance point moves back and i don't want to add nose weight.

Jose, try calling Banjock sometime, he has a really nice setup for the muffled PA-75 in a plane that weighs about the same as your new one. I think the setup is pretty close to the prop, etc Randy mentions but it can't hurt to get all the details. You saw his Vista run at Muncie so you know its a nice motor run.

jose modesto · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2010, 10:15:43 AM »

Steve i got a chance to see his set up and I will be trying to copy it with the expansion chamber header muffler. Steve I was really impressed by his set up it reminded me of a very powerfull ST60.
Dan told me he lost track of the number of head shims he said more than three (3) with a smaller ventury very similar to what Randy said.

It still raining in the north east an i get to have another day of building working on a plug in wing using the Yatzenko take apart system.
See photos The wing is my current way of building using the Hunt lost foam with my molded 1/4 wing panels including the wing tips.
Steve you know that we don't have any personal issues just your typical BOM difference of opinion. Steve as to what is approved under BOM as the sand has always been shifting under our feet without any changes to the official rules, this leads to different interpretations.
Define covering when i build solid surfaces that do not require additional covering. Steve can i produce an ARF that does not require covering and meet the current BOM? I think so as the only ARF that is banned is one that is pre-covered?

Derek Barry · « **Reply #25 on:** November 05, 2010, 11:26:51 AM »

Jose, is that the hardware from Dallas Hanna? It looks like it. I like this system very much. Make sure you get plenty of glue on the wing portions. I had one start to fail at the worlds but some last minute JB Weld held it together.

jose modesto · « **Reply #26 on:** November 05, 2010, 04:33:28 PM »

Yes Dereck the one in the photo is from Dallas Hanna but i also have the Yatzenko and a Kaz system. Dereck can you expand on how and were it started to fail. Dereck was it the piece in the wing and did it fail at the metal or the wood to wood joint. I would appreciate any imfo.
My wings are made just like the Shark wings but with a Hunt lost foam system withh way to many ribs. I have a new lost foam system comming with only four ribs per panel just like the Shark.
Dereck on Kaz Minato web site he is building a clasic model with a symylar plug in wing system some good imfo
Jose Modesto

proparc · « **Reply #27 on:** November 05, 2010, 05:42:53 PM »

Quote from: jose modesto on November 04, 2010, 03:42:50 PM

How is Mom?
Milton here are the 3 composite IMPACT MASTERS
Photo #1 IM 2 and 3
Photo #2 IM 1 this model if foam carbon fiber mat and glass cloth
Jose Modesto

Mom unfortunately is ill. Glad to see you are packing some serious heat in the nose. Gots to have the muscle to cut thru all the conditions.

RandySmith · « **Reply #28 on:** November 05, 2010, 06:12:34 PM »

"Define covering when i build solid surfaces that do not require additional covering. Steve can i produce an ARF that does not require covering and meet the current BOM?"

Hi Jose
Really anything you make is BOM legal for...you to fly... so there is no worry there

Randy

jose modesto · « **Reply #29 on:** November 05, 2010, 06:56:12 PM »

Randy the question was in reference to other modelers as i have received several orders for composite parts and complete component kits so i wanted to clarify what covering means.
Randy with the current rules a complete composite component kit that does not require covering but does require more than 1.5Hr of skilled labor is legal.
Randy within the BOM rule there is no mention of finish of model but specifically to covering and construction that was the premise of the question.
Randy since a covered ARF is excluded do we interpret covering to equal finish? then why never a reference to finish of model in the rules.
Some guys in other threads equated a clear coat by others to be illegal but yet no mention of finish. In reference to open bay they require a covering but not a wing as i used in the models shown?
one more wrinkle as to electric that does not require finish (fuel proofing) how close to ARF will be considered legal will a complete composite with the required building time of one(1) hour but no additional finish other than AMA # be legal.
Is the lack of any specific wording on finish just another of the gentleman's agreements that have dominated CL Stunt at the Nat's such as foam wings,quickbuild kits professional built wings ETC. and my beloved Shark? and i have used all of the above not throwing stones while i live in a glass house.
Randy thanks in advance for your input.
Jose Modesto

RandySmith · « **Reply #30 on:** November 05, 2010, 07:26:02 PM »

Quote from: jose modesto on November 05, 2010, 06:56:12 PM

Randy the question was in reference to other modelers as i have received several orders for composite parts and complete component kits so i wanted to clarify what covering means.
Randy with the current rules a complete composite component kit that does not require covering but does require more than 1.5Hr of skilled labor is legal.
Yes that is the way I read the rule, as long as it does not have a finish on it, in other words if you have to paint it finish it or monocote it, it is OK to use, If you can take it out of the box and just add your AMA number or trim and fly it is not BOM legal
Randy within the BOM rule there is no mention of finish of model but specifically to covering and construction that was the premise of the question.
I am not so sure of that, it states a model covered in the box is not legal, the covering they are speaking of is the finish, which is why an ARC is not legal
Randy since a covered ARF is excluded do we interpret covering to equal finish? then why never a reference to finish of model in the rules.
Yes you can reasonably read that the AMA is talking about the finish
Some guys in other threads equated a clear coat by others to be illegal but yet no mention of finish. In reference to open bay they require a covering but not a wing as i used in the models shown?
I see nowhere in he AMA rules that states anything about a person cannot have clear sprayed over their finish by someone
one more wrinkle as to electric that does not require finish (fuel proofing) how close to ARF will be considered legal will a complete composite with the required building time of one(1) hour but no additional finish other than AMA # be legal.

No it will not be legal, a finish is a finish wether it is fuel proof or not
Is the lack of any specific wording on finish just another of the gentleman's agreements that have dominated CL Stunt at the Nat's such as foam wings,quickbuild kits professional built wings ETC. and my beloved Shark? and i have used all of the above not throwing stones while i live in a glass house.

There is nothing in the rules that even hints that foam wings, prebuilt raw unfinshed wings or raw unfinshed kits are not legal, Yatsenko planes that are ready to fly are clearly not legal by the definition of the rule as I read it

In addition it seems to me that we need to rewrite the AMA rules and get some type of detailed clarity on these questions. This seems to be sorely lacking
Randy thanks in advance for your input.
Jose Modesto

Regards
Randy

Derek Barry · « **Reply #31 on:** November 06, 2010, 04:51:28 AM »

Quote from: jose modesto on November 05, 2010, 04:33:28 PM

Yes Dereck the one in the photo is from Dallas Hanna but i also have the Yatzenko and a Kaz system. Dereck can you expand on how and were it started to fail. Dereck was it the piece in the wing and did it fail at the metal or the wood to wood joint. I would appreciate any imfo.
My wings are made just like the Shark wings but with a Hunt lost foam system withh way to many ribs. I have a new lost foam system comming with only four ribs per panel just like the Shark.
Dereck on Kaz Minato web site he is building a clasic model with a symylar plug in wing system some good imfo
Jose Modesto

Jose, never could see where it failed. I looked inside both wings but there were no stress cracks around the hardware. The whole thing was my fault for not putting enough glue between the aluminum and the wing sheeting. I will post a pic of the repair.

jose modesto · « **Reply #32 on:** November 06, 2010, 08:03:55 AM »

Dereck what bellcrank did u use? and how did you remove the leadouts from crank. "D" the Shark has a piece of hard wood that is bound to the metal hardware so that you are gluing wood to wood was this your method.
"D" I'm fortunate to be using the same system as the shark with the 1/4 molded wing panels with a wood spar 3/4of the lengh of the wing panel. but on one of my Sharks i had a stress crack at the edges of the spar witch required glass cloth repair on outside surface. Looking forward to photos
"D" tell DAD i said Hey.
Jose

john e. holliday · « **Reply #33 on:** November 06, 2010, 10:13:36 AM »

In some parts of this country, when it comes to appearance points there have been some hard feelings started. I have an ARC that is not legal because the manufacturer had put a beautiful SLC on the open areas. It still needs to painted/finished. Which to me is putting on the primer and then the color with the graphics following. Had a plane that I stripped the lousy covering off of that needed some repairs. Yes it was an ARF. Did not argue when told it did not qualify for appearance points. Most I would have given it was less than a 10. Yes I will build the precovered kit I have as it will probably take Ten times as long or longer to finish it than assemble it. I commend the areas that have sone away with appearance points, but yet have an award for pilots choice or for best appearing plane. The nit pickers don't realize that an ARF sometimes take several days to finish/assemble properly.

jose modesto · « **Reply #34 on:** November 07, 2010, 12:13:09 AM »

Doc that one is silly as once the covering is removed from a typical ARF it becomes and ARC witch is legal The ARC requires final Assembly and finish.
Doc i asked the question were in BOM do they mention finish NO WERE only covering. Doc since BOM was first written in the late 40 or early 50 most models in stunt were open bay wings so covering could just be interpreted as Tissue as finish is never mentioned.
Doc again it is left to the interpretation of people with agendas Pro And Con. rewrite or eliminate.
The silliness is that it only has an effect to 35 or 50 men per year and not to anyone else. lets amend this to at most 10 flyer's per year.
Jose Modesto

john e. holliday · « **Reply #35 on:** November 07, 2010, 07:19:37 AM »

If you want to read or spend a lot of time on the subject, do a search on BOM or even appearance points. So I am not going to go into the differences of ARC and ARF.

VD~So drop the subjsect of BOM.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #36 on:** November 07, 2010, 07:55:03 AM »

Here is the "quick repair" that I did in the hotel in Hungary. It was good enough to hold through the rest of the contest and is still flyin good today! I simply did not use enough glue the first time!