Flaps/No Flaps?

[Fred Shattuck]

My brother and I fly non-flapped planes, with much better results than with.  My modified Ringmaster will out perform my chipmunk, hands down.  Both use a Super Tigre 51  I've  asked this question before, but posted it in the wrong place, so we are trying again. I love building and flying, although we know of nobody else currently using control lines, and the RC guys can not help. I want to build a Smoothie and a Thunderbird, but I am  sure I am doing something wrong. I simply can not make my Chipmunk or Banshee rotate tightly. I know somebody can enlighten me. I have been told we fly too fast, but surely we are not the only ones that get the rush at speed. We welcome any advice. Thanks

[john e. holliday]

Where does the plane balance?  If nose heavy it will not turn.  Try adding a little tail weight and try it again.  DOC Holliday

[Clint Ormosen]

Where does the plane balance?  If nose heavy it will not turn.  Try adding a little tail weight and try it again.  DOC Holliday

Agreed! A Super Tigre 51 is a big engine for a Chipmunk and it's huge for a Ringmaster. That's alot of weight in the nose. Also, how do you have the controls set up? Is the flap/elevator ratio 1:1?

That 'Chip should out turn your 'Ring by leaps and bounds.

[Steve Helmick]

Flapped airplanes have a lot more pitfalls and require more "trimming" efforts, but are well worth it in larger sizes. For small engines, I tend to think the added weight is detrimental. For bigger engines, the flaps will allow harder corners, and slower airspeed, as a general rule, allowing more time for the pilot to make accurate tricks.

DO NOT underestimate how much trimming is required to make one of these things really work well. Make the plane (trimming includes handle, lines, engine, prop, tank, fuel, muffler, etc, etc.) fly correctly. Then you will not have to make adaptions to compensate for the model. It'll help when you switch to another model, since you have not adapted yourself to the plane, see?    Steve

[George]

Fred,

How did you modify the Ringmaster? The mere fact that the wings have not folded makes me tend to think that you have made it heavy by reinforcing things. Most folks use a modern .20 or .25 or an older engine like a Fox .35. Mine has a Fox .35. The relatively thin airfoil is designed to fly faster than most flapped planes.

The Chipmunk is a well designed stunt plane to fly approximately on 60' lines at a velocity of approximately five seconds per lap. With that speed (and appropriate engine, prop, trimming) it is an excellent flyer. Again a .25-.35 size engine should be used. Flying too fast will not allow you to make the precision maneuvers that plane was designed and intended for. For your installation, you might try props with lower pitch to slow it down just a bit.

To get a FAST flying, fast turning plane that will fit the ST .51, you might try something like a Stuntwagon.

Good luck, whichever way you go. I would suggest you attend a few contests to see how other guys are doing it.

George

[Bill Little]

Like George said, a Stuntwagon w/ST G51 is a good airplane.  OTS and no flaps.

I am reading this and seeing a fast flying plane like the others have said, and it sounds like you are shooting for combat style loops and maneuvers..  nothing wrong if you like that, but flapped stunt models are not designed for it.  I cannot imagine a ST G51 on a standard size Ringmaster!

[Alan Hahn]

That must be some Ringmaster! I just can't get past the concept, much less the reality of a ST51 Ringmaster  . All else pales by comparison.

[Ray]

That must be some Ringmaster! I just can't get past the concept, much less the reality of a ST51 Ringmaster  . All else pales by comparison.

That does seem to be the topper of that sort of thing that I have heard about.  The closest thing along those lines is fast 35's in 15-size models, such as Flying Clowns and Circus Princes, and the elders have regaled us on numerous occasions about some of those experiments.  The hairiest of them was a PDQ profile trainer with a Johnson 35 pressed into service as a Rat Racer . .

I seems to have some vague recollection of reading 'Net stories not too many years back, about Fox 59s shoved into the noses of some relatively small airframes, though. 

[Bill Little]

Hi Ray, I did put a Fox 36 X on a Circus Prince back in about 1964.  The tank was for a Fox 15X, thank God! LOL!!!!!!!  All I did was fly level for a couple minutes.  I have since rebuilt the plane, new nose, and the Fox 15X is back in it.

[Jim Kraft]

Bob Arnet used to fly a plane I believe called a Sportsman with a Fox 59 at about 113 mph in stunt. As I remember it was about the size of a Ringmaster. He won Sr. stunt at the nats with that one in 1948. He ran that 59 so hard that he burned a hole in the piston on every flight as Duke was supplying the parts.

[Alan Hahn]

Fred,
How about a photo of this "Bad Boy" Ringmaster!

[phil c]

Fred, without flaps the wing loading has to be a lot lighter for the plane to make sharp turns.  Something like 15-16 square inches per ounce, or more conventionally, 8 oz. per square foot.  both those planes were designed around a Fox 35, about 7 oz.  The St 51 weighs around 5 oz. more, so the planes will be very nose heavy too boot, in addition to just being heavy.

Both the Smoothie and the Thunderbird will fly very well at around 40 oz. with a lightweight engine like the Fox 35 or a Brodak 40.