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Offline Motorman

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« on: December 17, 2017, 01:33:03 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 08:25:36 AM by Motorman »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2017, 01:51:02 PM »
Any pic or an explanation of how you make flaps individually adjustable? Two push rods?

Picture below, from this post.

You drive one flap from the bellcrank, and drive the elevator pushrod from that.  Then you come back up from the elevator pushrod to the other flap horn.  Make one or the other connection to the elevator pushrod adjustable, and just like that you're adjusting the flaps precisely and repeatably.

Note that based on my own intuition and comments from Paul Walker, when I do this the spacing at the elevator pushrod is going to be as narrow as I can make it, to avoid putting all sorts of weird out-of-plane forces and moments on the various links.

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2017, 06:53:21 PM »
I thought I had a better idea, but after spending a week trying to get a bind out of the linkage I discovered that the bind was inherent in the design. I gave up and put in a normal control horn
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 07:10:10 AM »
 I found a simple way to do it that I used on my 19 point 1988 Juno. I have no pictures as the plane is long gone. I used a convention flap horn but it was connected to the flap end rib of the inboard flap. NOTE The Juno has built up flaps. I made this end rib free from the rest of the flap. I made a small plywood tap on the end rid and the end of the flap.  I had a socket screw and a blind bolt to connect the two parts together making it all one flap.
 I did this because the Juno has a swept forward trailing edge and thick built up flaps and I thought I would need it. I adjusted it once and forgot it. 500+ flights later the plane was flying odd. When I checked it I found the flap adjustment was coming loose. I used CA glue on it and it never gave me problems after that. That plane went 1500+ flights. It would be very easy to do on flat flaps. I have seen guys use something like this on flap tabs but not the entire flap. I used it again on my Nostome design as it had fences on the flaps. I hid it in the fence at the body end  of the flap. The three fences on the flap were 1/4" high and it was a attempt to control air flow over the flaps. It worked very well. I do have pictures of this plane but need to look for them.
EddyR
Found the Nostromo but it does not show the flap adjustment. The flap fences do show and the adjustment was in the inboard fence. Very easy to do and it can be retro done on existing model if needed.
Ed
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 11:49:03 AM by EddyR »
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Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2017, 09:30:18 AM »

 My solution to the flap alignment problem Is a special split flap horn. I make my flap horn on a jig but still had alignment issues even after drilling the flaps on a milling machine. I made this flap horn for a built up fuse on a stunter. here are pics.

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2017, 09:33:47 AM »
My new PC is not reducing the size of my pics,I`m learning how to use it. The old one was better.

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 09:36:05 AM »
My new PC is not reducing the size of my pics,I`m learning how to use it. The old one was better. With this flap horn I`m able to set my flaps easier. I will be having a hole in the side of the fuse to be able to do adjustment if needed. my flap horn has two levers because the output of the bellcrank comes out of the bottom of the wing which also gives me the up leadout in front. I`m planning on a hatch just in case I have to do changes to the pushrod. the elevator horn has a slot for adjustment of travel.
                                                                                                                                                                Juan

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 09:43:51 AM »
The point of my system it that it is adjustable, BUT it has a moveable bolt that adjusts it that is finite and repeatable. If the wing is not level, simply insert the ball driver, turn the bolt 1/4 turn (as an example) and fly again and evaluate. If not perfect, you now know how much to turn the next adjustment. Can come in very handy.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 10:10:24 AM »
My new PC is not reducing the size of my pics,I`m learning how to use it. The old one was better. With this flap horn I`m able to set my flaps easier. I will be having a hole in the side of the fuse to be able to do adjustment if needed. my flap horn has two levers because the output of the bellcrank comes out of the bottom of the wing which also gives me the up leadout in front. I`m planning on a hatch just in case I have to do changes to the pushrod. the elevator horn has a slot for adjustment of travel.
                                                                                                                                                                Juan

Juan,

Nice.

Clever guy.  H^^

Do you make those parts with water jet?

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 05:16:57 PM »
The point of my system it that it is adjustable, BUT it has a moveable bolt that adjusts it that is finite and repeatable. If the wing is not level, simply insert the ball driver, turn the bolt 1/4 turn (as an example) and fly again and evaluate. If not perfect, you now know how much to turn the next adjustment. Can come in very handy.
.                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Paul.   Thanks for your comment it opened my eyes, I didn't think beyond the first alignment while building the plane. I have in this horn a 10 degree range of travel 5 degrees one way and the same the other. Looking at it after reading your post I realized that I can improve on the design using your idea of an adjustment screw. I will be making another one in the coming year.                               

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2017, 05:23:01 PM »
Juan,

Nice.

Clever guy.  H^^

Do you make those parts with water jet?

Charles
.            Hello Charles.     I wish I had a water jet along with many other tools, All I have is a small milling machine and a couple of small lathes. I also used a hacksaw for rough cuts. Thanks you are too kind.

Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2017, 07:36:58 PM »
The point of my system it that it is adjustable, BUT it has a moveable bolt that adjusts it that is finite and repeatable. If the wing is not level, simply insert the ball driver, turn the bolt 1/4 turn (as an example) and fly again and evaluate. If not perfect, you now know how much to turn the next adjustment. Can come in very handy.

Paul's system works really nice. I used it in my O'toole Tucker and just as Paul says, a small tweak with the ball driver and done.  Thanks Paul.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2017, 08:21:40 PM »
Paul's system works really nice. I used it in my O'toole Tucker and just as Paul says, a small tweak with the ball driver and done.  Thanks Paul.

Yes, but there's something about your implementation that gives it a strangely intermittent but strong attraction to the ground.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 03:22:24 PM »
              I made the change to my adjustable flap horn and now it can be adjusted in fractions of a turn at the time. I won`t be using it soon but I have it ready for my full fuselage stunter. The adjusting screw will be on the bottom of my plane since my flap pushrod is coming out of the bottom of the wing. I can go plus or minus five degrees in three turns each way from centered. weight is about half an ounce. I used Permatex antiseize compound on all rotating parts since I left very little clearance to avoid play.
                                                                                                                                                                                      juan

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 03:25:56 PM »
Beautiful job Juan. Thanks for the pic and idea.

Stupid question; is the tweakable flaps the preferred method to get the level flight trimmed, as opposed to trim tabs (with all other aspects being taken care of) ?

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2017, 03:38:03 PM »
Hello Dane
                       That is the idea,to be able to have the capacity to adjust the flaps to get wings level. I done it because even if I`m very careful when I  built my planes I checked my flaps and they needed a tweak.
                                                                                                                                                                    Juan

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2017, 04:28:11 PM »
Stupid question; is the tweakable flaps the preferred method to get the level flight trimmed, as opposed to trim tabs (with all other aspects being taken care of) ?

Yes.  Trim tabs look ugly, and more than flaps, they tend to work differently at different airspeeds.

You should only be putting in itty-bitty tweaks, probably no more than a 1/16" differential in the TE of the flap (although if someone more expert than me gives a different number, believe them).  If you're putting in more, it's probably a sign that your wings are warped.

You can get by without the fancy-dancy differential flap tweaking thing shown in pictures here -- instead, you just bend the flap joiner.  But the fancy-dancy differential flap tweaking thing gives you much better control.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Trostle

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2017, 05:06:38 PM »

You can get by without the fancy-dancy differential flap tweaking thing shown in pictures here -- instead, you just bend the flap joiner.  But the fancy-dancy differential flap tweaking thing gives you much better control.

Yes, just bending the "flap joiner" works.  But if the "flap joiner" is 1/8" music wire, there are two problems.  One, it is difficult to accurately "tweak" the flaps and while doing so, damage can be done to the flaps themselves, even while using plates on the top and bottom of each flap over the wire to try to do the "tweaking".  The other problem is that the music wire has a memory and will often tend to revert to be where it nearly was before the "tweaking"

Keith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2017, 05:10:01 PM »
Yes, just bending the "flap joiner" works.  But if the "flap joiner" is 1/8" music wire, there are two problems.  One, it is difficult to accurately "tweak" the flaps and while doing so, damage can be done to the flaps themselves, even while using plates on the top and bottom of each flap over the wire to try to do the "tweaking".  The other problem is that the music wire has a memory and will often tend to revert to be where it nearly was before the "tweaking"

Absolutely.  But I didn't want any beginners thinking they couldn't start building without having a hand-made differential flap dingus.  My next plane is getting one, and if I can figure out how to do it on a profile, the next profile I build will have one, too -- but that doesn't mean anyone should wait on building a Twister until they've got it figured out.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2017, 07:17:31 AM »
Absolutely.  But I didn't want any beginners thinking they couldn't start building without having a hand-made differential flap dingus.  My next plane is getting one, and if I can figure out how to do it on a profile, the next profile I build will have one, too -- but that doesn't mean anyone should wait on building a Twister until they've got it figured out.

                  I feel that the more information is posted on this and other forums the better it is for everybody even beginners. I have met beginners that were very handy and creative. This thread spurred me to come up with a better flap horn than what I had and I call that progress. I posted good photos for others who might want to do one or something similar. I wish I had a forum to go to when I was a kid starting in control line it would have made life easier. In this thread there are other solutions to the problem,there is the Paul Walker system,the EddyR idea of using flap fences incorporating adjustment,my ideas and the bending of the wires of the flap horns. If anybody has a question about my idea just ask and I will do my best to answer.
                                                                                                                                       Juan
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 09:45:36 AM by Juan Valentin »

Online Peter Germann

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2017, 10:27:39 AM »
Instead of 3 mm music wire I am  using 3 mm welding wire as per DIN 8554:G100 to make flap & elevator horns. It is a lot easier (and safe) to tweak and has no memory. Definitely strong enough, too.
Peter Germann

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2017, 01:09:57 PM »
Instead of 3 mm music wire I am  using 3 mm welding wire as per DIN 8554:G100 to make flap & elevator horns. It is a lot easier (and safe) to tweak and has no memory. Definitely strong enough, too.

Peter, can you please provide more detailed info about this welding wire. Or perhaps a link where you buy it.


Regards,
Vitalis P.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2017, 02:31:27 PM »
Peter, can you please provide more detailed info about this welding wire. Or perhaps a link where you buy it.


Regards,
Vitalis P.

In the US they come from welding supply stores. I suspect the same in Europe, but I have no clue what the local names are. I'd use 1/8 gas welding rod if I were buying locally.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2017, 02:54:12 PM »
It seems that DIN 8554 is a swiss standard. Its european analogue is EN 12536. But even with this info in mind, there are still so many different items with different composition and mechanical properties.

I'v found only one wire with exact standard as Peter provided:
http://www.isoarc.ch/produkte/zusatzwerkstoffen/schweissdraht/mig-mag-massiv/isofil-allgemeine-verbindungen/isofil-gv1/isofil-gv1.php

The closest analogue I found is this, but still I am not sure it's available in my country:
http://www.esab.lt/lt/lt/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.product&productCode=410477


Regards,
Vitalis P.

Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2017, 03:27:59 PM »
A modified PW.
Doug Moisuk
MAAC 3360L

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2017, 03:36:15 PM »
Vitalis: it's just plain old mild steel gas welding rod.  Again, I'm not sure how things would translate in your country, but phrases like "bog standard", "nothing special", "what most people use", possibly "low carbon", etc., should (after overcoming some skepticism) get you what you want.  Note that in the US you wouldn't be able to walk away with less than a pound of rod -- if you just want one stick (probably a meter, if you're in a metric country) you may have better luck inquiring at a shop that actually does welding, rather than someplace that sells to welders.

Rod for TIG welding will work as well for our purposes -- it's pretty much the same thing as gas welding rod, but made to higher standards of purity.  My local shop doesn't carry gas welding grade any more, because the TIG stuff is only a bit more expensive, it's what most people want (they look at you funny if you gas weld and aren't covered in wrinkles), and it works just fine for gas welding.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2017, 03:37:26 PM »
              I made the change to my adjustable flap horn and now it can be adjusted in fractions of a turn at the time. I won`t be using it soon but I have it ready for my full fuselage stunter. The adjusting screw will be on the bottom of my plane since my flap pushrod is coming out of the bottom of the wing. I can go plus or minus five degrees in three turns each way from centered. weight is about half an ounce. I used Permatex antiseize compound on all rotating parts since I left very little clearance to avoid play.
                                                                                                                                                                                      juan

Juan -- I think you just taught me how to make this thing work for a profile.  It'd have to be adjusted a bit for both arms on top, but I think that can be overcome easily enough.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2017, 05:12:44 PM »
PW
Doug Moisuk
MAAC 3360L

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2017, 12:20:21 PM »
So the bellcrank drives one flap horn and the other flap is driven through the adjuster?

Yes.  The bellcrank drives the flap horn, the flap horn drives the elevator push rod, the elevator push rod drives the elevator and the other flap horn.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2017, 10:37:14 PM »
Vitalis Pilkionis is in Lithuania, FYI. According to his profile, anyway.   H^^ Steve


"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2018, 12:01:16 AM »
Vitalis Pilkionis is in Lithuania, FYI. According to his profile, anyway.   H^^ Steve

Maybe I'd trust Canadian welding supply houses to use the same terminology as here -- but then, they put gravy on their French fries, so who can be sure?  I wouldn't even be sure of what to ask for in England or Australia without reconnoitering first.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2018, 01:27:03 AM »
Well, sure, Canadian welding supplies would come from USA...or China.  y1 Steve

PS: If you order fries in Australia, plan ahead and import your own ketchup with you. Their "sauce" is way different despite being red and made from tomatoes, and I didn't like it. Even more bland. And runny. And be sure to request no pineapple and beet slices on your burger.
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2018, 01:56:34 PM »
I also use welding wire 1/8" ... the springness under load is aproximately the same, but it need lower force for bending, so it is easy to set by twisting ... but screw is screw, it is easy to predict how much and it is also easy to put it back.

But I do not heat it to brazing tempearture, I use soft tint solder (AgSn) because those rods are little bit mechanically hardened during production and brazing tempearture will damge them and it is impossible to gain back by thermal hardening.

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2018, 02:01:21 AM »
I also use welding wire 1/8" ...

Igor, can you please point to a particular item you use?


Vitalis P.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 05:09:00 AM »
I use any copper plated. However is you use bearing from 4/3,2 or 4/3 mm tubes, the point is to find source in your shop for welding which fits properly to your tube. You can find rod 3mm 3,2mm and also 1/8" (3,17mm). They fit different and salesman usually does not know what is real size and you also do not see it in web shops, 3.2mm and 1/8" is one size for them, so buy one or go to shop and test one. Then remember what you got from what maker. Right now I use Carborod 1A. It is available in 1kg packs, that will be enough for many models :- ))

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 07:44:39 AM »
Right now I use Carborod 1A. It is available in 1kg packs.. ))

Thanks, Igor, this is an exact information I asked for.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2018, 04:49:01 PM »
With Dem one piece flap horns ! ALIGNING before fitting . the olde vice & cresent spanner trick .
BUT . . . ni narr ni narr  . . .

The olde stress might hold it somewhere it later goes away from , so grab & with the two thumbs twist opposite a notch a few times . If it sits dead straight after its dead straight .

if its missaligned - not dead parrallel , twist past a bit & back in line . Then exercise the thumbs again . The POINT BEING

that the residual stress , when the horn is worked , may ' stress relive ' a iota . So stress Relieve ( work a few times ) BEFORE
installing it " ALIGNED " . wot ho .

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2018, 10:47:43 AM »
I also use welding wire 1/8" ... the springness under load is aproximately the same, but it need lower force for bending, so it is easy to set by twisting ... but screw is screw, it is easy to predict how much and it is also easy to put it back.

But I do not heat it to brazing tempearture, I use soft tint solder (AgSn) because those rods are little bit mechanically hardened during production and brazing tempearture will damge them and it is impossible to gain back by thermal hardening.
           Hello Igor
                     I also use the Agsn solder which is an alloy of tin and silver. The one I use is sold by Lincon Electric under the name Harris Stay Brite silver solder. I do not solder the 1/16 wire to the horn arm directly because I feel it doesn`t have enough grip for a good joint. That is why I make the flanged bushings to provide more area to grab the arm and the wire for a more solid connection.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2018, 10:56:30 AM »
           Hello Igor
                     I also use the Agsn solder which is an alloy of tin and silver. The one I use is sold by Lincon Electric under the name Harris Stay Brite silver solder. I do not solder the 1/16 wire to the horn arm directly because I feel it doesn`t have enough grip for a good joint. That is why I make the flanged bushings to provide more area to grab the arm and the wire for a more solid connection.

Stay brite is OK, but do not use that acid flux, if you are not sure you can clean it properly. I use water solvable flux for copper water tubes. If you clean steel before soldering it will wor well.

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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2018, 11:50:13 AM »
The Staybrite acid flux is good for just tinning the surface pf steel rod. Like that it's still easy to clean/neutralize properly.
Once the steel is tinned, you can wrap it together and use allmost whatever flux to solder all together.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2018, 12:25:50 PM »
The Staybrite acid flux is good for just tinning the surface pf steel rod. Like that it's still easy to clean/neutralize properly.
Once the steel is tinned, you can wrap it together and use allmost whatever flux to solder all together.

If you use copper-plated welding rod it'll tin a lot easier.  Copper is almost magic for plating or soldering, because it'll stick to almost anything, and almost anything will stick to it.
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2018, 12:37:56 PM »
The Staybrite acid flux is good for just tinning the surface pf steel rod. Like that it's still easy to clean/neutralize properly.
Once the steel is tinned, you can wrap it together and use allmost whatever flux to solder all together.

Could be true, but in that case you cannot use tight fit, or you must again drill holes = tin is away, and why to do it twice if you can easily do it in one operation :- )) it nicely soaks clean steel surface, so acid is not necessary

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2018, 12:39:10 PM »
If you use copper-plated welding rod it'll tin a lot easier.  Copper is almost magic for plating or soldering, because it'll stick to almost anything, and almost anything will stick to it.

Also true, but those steel arms are not plated, so you must use good flux.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2018, 02:40:08 PM »
Also true, but those steel arms are not plated, so you must use good flux.

True.  I failed to think :(.

Unless you have a friend in a plating shop!! :)
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Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2018, 05:20:59 PM »
I use Solnet lead-free solder with 3%Ag/0.5%Cu and Weller LW25 flux.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2018, 05:56:57 PM »
SnCuAg is OK, I used also that solder, works nice. I tried also SnCu, also OK.

However LW25 contains lot of zinc chloride, it will release HCl when you heat it (that is how it works - it will clean oxided surface from metal - but be sure the first will be that copper from rods :- P ), and if you do not clean perfectly it will corrode metal inside the join. So it is much better to use flux for copper and clean iron before soldering mechanically.

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2018, 06:47:36 PM »
Dear Vitalis,
If you are from the Baltic republics, I can advise you a comfortable and safe, and easy solderable solution: spoke of the Riga moped. (I use it exclusively from the early '80s. )
It is only 2,6 mm diameter (round 1/9 " ) but the surface is plattered by Cadmium, and it is superbly solderable by normal (Sn/Pb) soldering wire.
This material is harder than welding wire but softer than music wire, and 2,6 mm dia is enough for fullsize planes. See:
https://plus.google.com/photos/117790355930193335731/album/5715088163776972593/5731000107701851922
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Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2018, 06:47:12 AM »
Dear Vitalis,
If you are from the Baltic republics, I can advise you a comfortable and safe, and easy solderable solution: spoke of the Riga moped.

Hi Istvan,
yes, I am from the Baltic reps, but I haven't seen Riga moped on streets since my teens (that's almost 30 years ago)   ~^  Don't have a clue about where to search for its spokes   n~
But anyway thanks for the hint  ;)
For now I use 3mm wire I teared out of a leaf rake. It looks like it is nikel coated, but I sand it before soldering and it works fine..


Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2018, 06:51:12 AM »
However LW25 contains lot of zinc chloride, it will release HCl when you heat it (that is how it works - it will clean oxided surface from metal - but be sure the first will be that copper from rods :- P ), and if you do not clean perfectly it will corrode metal inside the join. So it is much better to use flux for copper and clean iron before soldering mechanically.


Thanks Igor, I'll have that on my mind. Going to buy a better flux.

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2018, 05:15:25 PM »
Dear Vitalis,
Well, I bought these old spokes at the flea market.
I think Cadmium plattered / galvanized steel goods are banned for years: some dark-green-brained stupid politicians declared it to be "poisoning". (I never wanted to eat it... :)  )

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2018, 05:28:59 PM »
Also true, but those steel arms are not plated, so you must use good flux.

In the machine shop QC inspection of post-grinding of chrome plated steel parts, we used a liquid solution with copper in it to look for "grind through". A wipe with the fluid would turn bare steel to copper color. Would this be an adequate copper coating for improved soldering? I don't recall what the composition of the fluid was, other than the copper component, but I'm sure somebody will know, and could offer an opinion as to whether would work.  H^^ Steve
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:05:03 PM by Steve Helmick »
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2018, 11:04:35 PM »
Dear Vitalis,
Well, I bought these old spokes at the flea market.
I think Cadmium plattered / galvanized steel goods are banned for years: some dark-green-brained stupid politicians declared it to be "poisoning". (I never wanted to eat it... :)  )

    I don't think it is banned around here, but, I agree, unless you scrape the green dust off, pile it into lines, and snort it like cocaine at Studio 54, you are probably OK.

    Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2018, 01:26:17 PM »
Aircraft bushings (usually Aluminum Nickle Bronze) will normally have Cadmium plating on the OD and flange (if present), and installed (glued in) with Zinc Chromate primer into the typical aluminum or steel part, plus a bead of sealer around the exposed edges. Objective is to prevent galvanic reaction corrosion.

One night at my Boeing experimental shop, they gave me a Cadmium sphere, and wanted it lathe-turned into a disc. I asked my Leadman to call about toxic concerns, and he came back after calling. At least, he said he called...said the Safety person said to keep it cool, and if it smoked, RUN! So, no, Cadmium is not banned, although carefully controlled plating processes and waste disposal are critical. Same problems with chrome...adds to the cost. Cad plated fasteners are not generally available, outside the aircraft industry suppliers. The average shiny bolts from the retail hardware store are "brite zinc" plated. Zinc is considered to be good for you, at least for now....  LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2018, 02:54:38 PM »
Dear All,
Europe is full with very clever politicians, and very-very clever scientific advisors of them.
For example: try to imagine our situation about the quicksilver:
traditional clinical thermometer is banned, since the quicksilver in is poisoning, therefore manufacturing has stopped and import is banned.
BUT
The quicksilver in all fluorescent light sources cannot be poisoning, since they are preferred, being more efficient solutions related to incandescent lamps...

So I remain by good old cadmium plated spokes, but my canopy is hermetically glued on my model already: I hope, the sight of the mechanism is not poisoning itself... :)

One another thing - to think on... (since several colleagues appreciated the copper as good soldering basement) :
In the elementary school we  learned in Chemistry that immersing some clear iron or steel object into blue vitriol (Copper-sulphate) solution, some copper will cover the iron surface. (No electric current needed). I think that blue crystal is available in every agricultural shop, since it is a traditional basic material of spraying of every vineyards...   :!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 04:43:58 AM by Istvan Travnik »

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2018, 05:29:24 PM »
"One another thing - to think on... (since several colleagues appreciated the copper as good soldering basement) :
In the elementary school we  learned in Chemistry that immersing some clear iron or steel object into blue vitriol (Copper-sulphate) solution, some copper will cover the iron surface. (No electric current needed). I think that blue crystal is available in every agricultural shop, since it is a traditional basic material of spraying of every vineyards..."

Thank you, Istvan, for providing the details about which I'd mentioned above...Copper Sulfate. It has been 20+ years since I used Copper Sulfate to test for grind-through on chrome plated steel shafts. I'll have to ask about it at the Aggie Shop and see if they have it available. Can anybody provide a guess as to whether this thin layer of copper would actually help with soldering?  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2018, 11:14:16 AM »
I have found that music wire, as sold in hobby shops is too brittle for control horns.  The sharp bends required cause fractures in the rod, which is prone to later failure.  I always anneal the music wire before bending.  Heat the wire with a torch to a dull red and let cool gradually.  Control horns thus treated can be "tweaked" safely, and permanently, with no apparent "memory".

I examined  the welding rod I have for my oxy-acetylene outfit.  I think it is too soft, and I doubt if it can be hardened.
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Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Flap Adjustment
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2018, 01:41:11 PM »
Another bet to find some semi-hard steel wire for control horn (if you think the welding wire to be too soft, and music wire (spring material) to be too hard (if you do not want / not able to find some motorcycle spoke in proper diameter):
the knitting needle.
I remember our old stunter comrades in the '60s robbed all 3 mm dia. knitting needles from the mom, or grandma... :)
When it was chromed, needed to sand off before bending.


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