News:



  • March 28, 2024, 10:23:11 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: First CL plane with Motor upside down  (Read 1333 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
First CL plane with Motor upside down
« on: January 02, 2022, 06:07:02 PM »
What was the first Control Line Plane with the motor upside down?

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6133
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2022, 06:24:02 PM »
Moitle...first to fly inverted-a bipe.  It's in the AMA museum.  Circa 1946.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3338
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2022, 11:23:02 PM »
What was the first Control Line Plane with the motor upside down?

There are probably several candidates for this.   Exact dates of when first built are somewhat uncertain for the following.

The first Big Job was built by Addie Naccarato, it had an inverted engine.  Really ahead of its time with a big wing, thick airfoil, long tail moment with a good sized horizontal tail.  There is a picture of it in the 1953 Air Trails Annual that says it is from 1951.  When researching this airplane, Tony, her son, told Charlie Reeves for the April 2007 construction article Flying Models that the original was built in 1948.  (In my opinion, one of the four top old time stunt designs.)

Another candidate is an interesting one.  The Pagan was published in the 1951 Aeromodeller Annual.  Another one ahead of its time.  Inverted engine.  A semiscale design of the deHavilland TK-4 racer.  Really quite a good looking airplane.  A really good performing OTS design.

Another semi scale design and a good performer for OTS is the Black Tiger by Robert Elliott.  Published in the February 1953 issue of Air Trails.  The article said construction was started in 1951.  A great article on this design was published in the July 1996 issue of Flying Models.

The Bouncing Bertie was published in the June 1952 issue of Air Trails.  This was a triplane, inverted engine.  No mention in the article when it was first designed.

Can-Stunt was a pusher canard with an inverted engine.  Published in an early issue Flying Models.  I am checking for a publish date.

The Stunt Champ by Lloyd Curtis won the 1952 Plymouth Internats in his age category.  Published in the March 1953 issue of Air Trails.  No mention of when it first flew of designed.

From Air Trails, October 1950, there was a design by S. Calhoun Smith (old timers know about him) that was a semi scale of the Delanne double mono-plane.  Had an inverted engine.  Interesting design.

December, 1948 Model Airplane News had the stunt model called the Screwball Fury by J. S. Luck.  Inverted engine.  This is a very attractive design that others have said is a capable  OTS design.  Perhaps another model, with little attention that was well before its time.  It is in the Morris OTS book.

Lethal Lucy by Leon Shulman, Air Trails, December 1952 had an inverted engine.  Surprised we have not seen more of these in OTS.

The Moitle, a biplane, has already been mentioned.  This design, resurrected by Don Hutchinson in the 90's was first designed in 1946.  Had an inverted engine.  Documented by Don with its designer, Francis Reynolds, officially recognized by PAMPA as OTS legal.  Plans in June 1996 Model Builder.

Don Still's Stuka Stunt was designed in the 1951 time frame, published in April 1952 Air trails.  Inverted engine.

Almost all of the designs mentioned above are what could be considered OTS airplanes.

There might have been some scale designs from before 1950 that featured inverted engines.

One of the earliest published designs for control line with an inverted engine is from December 1943 model Airplane News.  This was a very attractive gull-wing model that gives the appearance of the fighters or more correctly the military observation aircraft from the mid 1930's.  46 inch span, 350 sq in.  Even shows the details for what would be considered now as a typical bellcrank, unusual for the time.  Semi-symmetrical wing section, about 14% section.  Just called the "Control Line Fighter" by Peter Westburg who is/was responsible for many detailed scale drawings published many years later, primarily in Model Builder magazine.  Very detailed plans and very detailed construction article.  Nothing is mentioned about maneuverability, but basic maneuvers should be possible, particularly if built light enough.

Interesting question.

Keith



« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 11:35:11 AM by Trostle »

Offline wwwarbird

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7961
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2022, 11:29:27 PM »

 Always enjoy reading Keith's incredible knowledge of C/L history, thank you Keith.  y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3338
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2022, 11:43:08 PM »
Thunderbird.

Black with green trim with a white outline.

Anybody that knows anything about Bob Palmer's designs knows that his Pow Wow, with its inverted engine, published in April 1954 was well before the appearance of his Thunderbirds around 1959.  Neither one could hardly be found to be the earliest CL models with an inverted engine.

Charles, maybe you have a different Thunderbird in mind.  If so, what year and by who?

Keith

Offline wwwarbird

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7961
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2022, 11:53:28 PM »

Charles, maybe you have a different Thunderbird in mind.  If so, what year and by who?


 Probably the one HE built in 1936.  LL~
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Allen Eshleman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2022, 07:55:11 AM »
Wow Keith.  That's great stuff.  Some of those sound like build worthy projects but I don't build.  In the last years I have built Only ARF/C's or real easy stuff like Tom Dixon's foam wingers.  It sounds like some of those would be really good flyers.  For all I knew the Nobler was the first plane with an inverted engine.  Thanks for that history.  It was a question that popped into my head yesterday.

Offline Allen Eshleman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2022, 08:12:59 AM »
This link apparently shows a Big Job in Flying Models plans.

https://images.app.goo.gl/dMeNnodasXhDNvmf6

Offline Allen Eshleman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2022, 09:04:05 AM »
RSM now has a Big Job kit.   Part number BIGJ      I never noticed this kit before.

Offline Allen Eshleman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 809
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2022, 10:15:49 AM »

Offline dale gleason

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 842
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2022, 10:49:38 AM »
Speaking of "Moitles", I talked briefly with Don Hutchinson yesterday and he is nearing 90 years old living in an assisted living home near Ft. Worth. Don brought the "Moitle" back to life and made plans for it, one he built is in the AMA museum in Muncie.
The other one he built I took to the VSC for the "rarely seen" event. I flew it on the nearby grass circle twice and was amazed at its ability to fly the OTS pattern.
 
It has an inverted mounted Torpedo 32 sparker engine which I feared would be difficult to start and needle.  Being a bipe, I thought it might fly like a "Bi-Slob", ie, no glide, etc. None of those things occurred.

It flew extremely well! Steady as a rock upright and inverted...round loops flew themselves. That's about all I attempted first flight for fear of taking it back to Don in a trash bag, but, no worries at all. The engine ran the tank dry and the "Moitle" entered a long shallow glide and landed itself!

Next flight I flew the complete OTS pattern and once again, it flew really well. I stayed a little high on tricks, but, was confident if it lost power for some reason, it could split "S" easily to upright flight. lt ran perfectly and once again glided a long, smooth arrival to a smooth landing.

I wish more folks had watched those flights, those who did were quite impressed, I certainly was!

Allan Perret built a Moitle and put his build on Stunt Hangar, it's a pretty tough build, unless you are a Don Hutchinson.

dg

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2244
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2022, 12:43:47 PM »
Thunderbird.

Black with green trim with a white outline.

the original T BIRD was an uprite motor, the inverted T BIRD came later
rad racer

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3338
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2022, 06:04:03 PM »
Built mine in the 60's. I can't remember what the kit called for, up or down. I inverted the engine for looks.

I mention this above.

I cannot stand building kits. Well, except for the amazing Flite Streak.

What does your experience with any version of the Thunderbird have anything to do with the "First CL plane with Motor upside down"?  Nobody will deny that the Thunderbird is a remarkable design and represents a significant milestone in CL Stunt evolution as have many of Bob Palmer's designs.

Keith

« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 10:18:40 AM by Trostle »

Offline Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2754
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2022, 08:11:03 PM »
Speaking of "Moitles", I talked briefly with Don Hutchinson yesterday and he is nearing 90 years old living in an assisted living home near Ft. Worth. Don brought the "Moitle" back to life and made plans for it, one he built is in the AMA museum in Muncie.
The other one he built I took to the VSC for the "rarely seen" event. I flew it on the nearby grass circle twice and was amazed at its ability to fly the OTS pattern.
 
It has an inverted mounted Torpedo 32 sparker engine which I feared would be difficult to start and needle.  Being a bipe, I thought it might fly like a "Bi-Slob", ie, no glide, etc. None of those things occurred.

It flew extremely well! Steady as a rock upright and inverted...round loops flew themselves. That's about all I attempted first flight for fear of taking it back to Don in a trash bag, but, no worries at all. The engine ran the tank dry and the "Moitle" entered a long shallow glide and landed itself!

Next flight I flew the complete OTS pattern and once again, it flew really well. I stayed a little high on tricks, but, was confident if it lost power for some reason, it could split "S" easily to upright flight. lt ran perfectly and once again glided a long, smooth arrival to a smooth landing.

I wish more folks had watched those flights, those who did were quite impressed, I certainly was!

Allan Perret built a Moitle and put his build on Stunt Hangar, it's a pretty tough build, unless you are a Don Hutchinson.

dg

Dale,

Allan built a jig from which to build the Moitle and brought it to one of our club meetings.  It disappeared along with a lot of other things after Allan's death. 

Mike

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9920
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2022, 11:46:31 AM »
My recaller says that a bunch of the Veco kit plans had a secondary nose shown with an inverted engine. The Papoose was one of those, IIRC. I'm not sure about the earlier KenHi kits, but seems to me that at least one of those had an inverted engine installation.

And of course, there were a fair number of FF designs back in the 1930's with inverted engines. Hank Struck's "Record Hound" being one of many. http://www.theplanpage.com/Months/2303/rh.htm    y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Avaiojet

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7468
  • Just here for the fun of it also.
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2022, 12:18:31 PM »
What does your experience with any version of the Thunderbird have anything to do with the "First CL plane with Motor upside down"?  Nobody will deny that the Thunderbird is a remarkable design and represents a significant milestone in CL Stunt evolution as have many of Bob Palmer's designs.

Keith

You're absolutely 100% correct.

I misread the OP's question.

Now I have a better understand as to some of the replies.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Thanks again for pointing this out.

Charles

I removed my replies. Sorry aging for the misunderstandings I brought to this Thread.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 05:39:54 PM by Avaiojet »
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3338
Re: First CL plane with Motor upside down
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2022, 12:31:58 PM »
Wow Keith.  That's great stuff.  Some of those sound like build worthy projects but I don't build.  In the last years I have built Only ARF/C's or real easy stuff like Tom Dixon's foam wingers.  It sounds like some of those would be really good flyers.  For all I knew the Nobler was the first plane with an inverted engine.  Thanks for that history.  It was a question that popped into my head yesterday.

Allen,

A good observation about how well some of these early designs fly. 

The following is a bit off topic but I thin worth mentioning here.  In my opinion, the Big Job is one of the four top OTS designs available.  The other three are the Humongous, the Jamison Special (where I have seen many used in the regular AMA stunt events, and the Large Madman brought to us by the work of Don Hutchinson (as he has done with several other significant OTS designs including the Moitle discussed above by several). 

There is a good number of other designs that are worthy performers on the OTS circle.  I have flown many of these or have first hand knowledge on their ability.  Depending on the pilots, these can perform right up there with the four mentioned above.  These would include the Barnstormer, Frank Ehling,s Easy in one of its larger versions, the Pagan mentioned above, Williamson's Gyrator, the Don Still Stuka Stunt (even with the flap penalty), almost any of the early Palmer designs like the Mars, Venus, and Smoothie (again even with their flap penalties), the Curtis Stunt Champ (again with the flap penalty), by all accounts the Moitle biplane is a good peforming airplane.   The larger version of the Don Still Victory would fall in this category.  However, there is another design called Victory from a designer also from Texas that is an extremely good airplane.  I have seen several of these, got to fly one for most of a season.  Maybe someone in Texas can know more about the origin of this.

One of the biggest sleepers here is the Screwball Fury.  A large airplane from 1948.  I know of one that has been built and flown at Brodak's.  Reported to fly well.  Has a short nose, so more adapted to ignition with the heavier engine.  Also, the plans show the NACA 23012 semi-symmetrical airfoil which will still allow it to fly the pattern.  The interesting thing here is that in the construction article, the designer states that a symmetrical airfoil can be used so I would think this could be used and still be OTS legal.  This one is on my list to build.

Other opinions may differ.

There are probably more that would fit in this list.  So many airplanes, so little time to check them all out.

Keith
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 05:02:47 PM by Trostle »


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here