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Author Topic: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?  (Read 1463 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« on: July 02, 2023, 09:15:16 AM »
Guys,
Has anyone applied fiberglass 3/4oz over dope sheeting with polyester resin? Polyester resin is supposed to be lighter than epoxy resin not as strong but over sheeting strong enough. Question is does it stick?

 Best.  DennisT

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2023, 09:25:53 AM »
My rule of thumb is to put down polyester first. It may not cure if put over other finishing materials.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2023, 10:02:28 AM »
I have not used polyester.
I will mention that you can use dope to apply that cloth.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2023, 04:21:58 PM »
I would sand the dope with 220 paper then apply the glass with Zap Zpoxy finishing resin. I wouldn't trust polyester resin to stick to anything but then again I'm an epoxy guy.

MM
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2023, 04:30:55 PM »
I haven't used Polyester resin since the middle '60's. Didn't like it then, and sure wouldn't use it now! The Zpoxy finishing resin is great stuff. Next choice would be polycrylic. n1 Steve
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2023, 05:23:06 PM »
I agree with MM and Steve, toss the polyester and use epoxy.  y1

Good luck, Jerry

Offline Curare

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2023, 10:50:36 PM »
Dennis, lets start at the beginning, what are you aiming to do? Stiffen the structure or fuel proof?
Greg Kowalski
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2023, 07:19:26 AM »
Dave Platt (MR SCALE ) still uses polyester.he says it sands easier .just remember u can put epoxy over polyester but not the other way around. speaking from experience  RAD
rad racer

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2023, 07:38:06 AM »
I just looked at an old compatibility chart and polyester will not go over Butyrate dope (which is what I prepped the surface with) so that answers that. It will go over nitrate but that's it. The objective is to add a little extra strength and stiffness to a sheet wing. Trying for lightest weight possible. I am thinking that using the finishing resin and toilet paper roll method might work for this. My old flying buddy used to do this to his sheet flaps.

Best,   DennisT

Offline doug coursey

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2023, 11:44:10 AM »
I GLASSED THE NOSE OF MY PLANE WITH 1 OZ CLOTH,I PUT A COUPLE COATS OF NITRATE DOPE ON THE WOOD THEN SANDED IT SMOOTH..I THEN LAID THE CLOTH ON AND BRUSHED IT WITH NITRATE DOPE TO ATTACH IT...AFTER IT DRIED I USED FINNISH EPOXY AND COATED THE GLASS.AFTER IT DRIED I SANDED IT SMOOTH READY FOR DOPE.. IT IS MUCH EASIER TO USE DOPE TO ATTACH THE GLASS THEN EPOXY AFTER THAT
AMA 21449

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2023, 12:45:06 PM »
this is true
rad racer

Offline Motorman

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2023, 01:32:56 PM »
If you want to add stiffness, I would suggest you put the cloth cross grain on top and spanwise on the bottom. The cross grain cloth will fold over the edges better.

Put the bottom cloth on first and trim. Then put the top cloth on but leave 1/2" dry around the edges. When it's cured put extra paint on the edges on the bottom and wait until it just gets tacky then fold the top cloth around the edges and stick it down to the tacky paint. When it's cured, paint the dry edges.

Neddy Morris taught me that one.

MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2023, 07:43:01 PM »
I am kinda skert of polyester on high value projects.

With epoxy I can mix equal parts OK.

This bidness of counting a few drops of hardener into an ounce or so of resin does not give me confidence, except maybe on a low value home fixup job.
Paul Smith

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2023, 02:44:48 AM »
Hello In a wild rush to get my son's Goodyear racer ready for competition a few years ago a I used polyester resin over Butyrate dope when attaching glass cloth to the wing and fuselage. The wing was left in clear polyester resin and the fuselage painted in acrylic enamel and we were surprised how well it has lasted but it is a diesel engine.

Regards Gerald

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2023, 06:20:53 AM »
 Gerald,
Interesting that you were able to get the polyester over the butyrate, has there been any peeling or blistering of the glass? If I had started with a nitrate base I would do the polyester resin as it is lighter than epoxy resin and I'm trying to save weight as much as possible. How long after the butyrate dope did you apply the polyester resin? Might be that if it had sufficient time to gas off that it will stick.

I have some 0.3oz/yd fiberglass vail that I am thinking about using instead of waive. With the polyester it could be a very light and stiff finish cause you can fill it with the lighter polyester resin where as with the epoxy resin you need to minimize the resin to save weight. Something to think about.

Best,    DennisT


Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Fiberglass polyester resin over dope?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2023, 05:02:28 PM »
Dennis,

I think the whole weight "advantage" of polyester resin is lost in the noise. And like Aussie Greg suggests, you need to be pretty specific about what you are trying to achieve/improve, or it may not be better, just different. Which is ok, it's a hobby!

For manufacturers, the compelling reason to use polyester resin is lower cost. For a hobby project it may matter more if you have a quart of polyester resin that you need to use up and that provides a (legitimate?) reason to go that route.

I was hard-pressed to find data sheets that support your argument that polyester resin is lighter than epoxy laminating resin. There is a range for each of course, but both are in the 1.1 to 1.45 gm/cm3 zone. The best direct comparison I could make was that an available laminating resin was ~5% heavier than polyester. So if you used even 3 oz. of material for your reinforcement, which would lay down a very large amount of 0.5 oz/yd^2 cloth, your weight penalty when holding thickness constant would be 4-5 grams. That is less than likely variations coming from wet-out techniques.

You need enough resin to get the laminate down and attached and all the filaments anchored to each other. If you are only using one layer of glass, then it is lightest to get it stuck down but don't try to fill the outer weave with matrix (resin); instead, use a lightweight filler. This will have a greater impact on weight than the difference in cured densities of polyester vs. epoxy.

If engineering is driving your materials choice, then consider the Specific Stiffness and Specific Strength of the cured laminate. The epoxy is stronger, so you need less of it in general--except there has to be enough to stick down one layer, if that is your idea here. The bending stiffness and strength should all be coming from the fiber. But the resin has everything to do with damage tolerance. (The military had impact requirements for dropped tools, which amounts to the same thing.)

Personally, I am more comfortable with what I believe are reduced safety risks of working with epoxy than the polyester. The trick with epoxy is to limit your exposure so that you do not become sensitized to it. I don't like having MEKP around at all. The last plane I worked on that was glassed with polyester resin (an Other People's Plane that they never finished) was a brittle disaster. I still have it and fly it, but the wing did snap in half...so I repaired it with epoxy.

The Divot McSlow

PS--I tried to stay out of this topic and see what the other guys had to say---but as a "sometimes mass props guy" in aerospace I was curious, and that lead to....


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