FF Build question

[Brad Smith]

I am starting a sig MR MULLIGAN ff what glue  should i use ca ambrodid or elmers wood glue im not sure?

[Randy Ryan]

I am starting a sig MR MULLIGAN ff what glue  should i use ca ambrodid or elmers wood glue im not sure?

Either will do fine but if you use the Elmer's thin it with some water, its very heavy for stick and tissue models. A combination of both os more likely. I use a number of adhesives depending on what I'm gluing.

[Mike Keville]

Ambroid.  It's lighter...sands better.  Just be sure to pre-glue all joints.

[Dan McEntee]

Ambroid.  It's lighter...sands better.  Just be sure to pre-glue all joints.

     Tastes better too!

    Good flying model by Tom Stark, who is from my area. I built one from a SIG kit that less than desireable wood, but it still flew well with enough rubber. Biggest chore is carving and sanding all those rocker arm bumps for the cowling! But I still have intensions of building another someday.
   Good luck and have fun ,
     Dan McEntee

[Tim Wescott]

For FF questions, Hip Pocket Aeronautics (http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php) is a great forum.

But I suspect there's a lot of FF guys on this forum: I really think the world isn't split into folks who fly RC, FF and CL -- it's split into folks who fly RC-only and folks who fly everything.

[Jim Fruit]

Brad:

For stick and tissue models, don't use the ca. It cures rock hard. When your trying to sand before covering, you will be removing a lot of balsa but leaving raised tips of hard glue, making covering almost impossible (don't ask how I know this). White glue is more sandable as well as is ambroid. I have not used ambroid for over 50 years, however, so I probably should comment about that old standard.

Jim Fruit

[Dan McEntee]

  Yeah! What Tim said!!!
    Glue is like a tool and you have to learn how to use it to it's advantages, and it's more that just something to stick parts together. Larry is correct about CA in free flight models. It likes to whick up the grain of light wood and where it stops will be the place where that stick breaks and it doesn't sand well at all compared to the soft wood. Proper use of any glue, especially Ambroid, will let you build almost as fast as using CA, especially indoor models. Free flight models will teach you a lot about parts fit up. If parts fit well, they require less glue and are stronger and lighter, and if need be sand better. I'm of the thought that if you see glue coming out of most glue joints, you have used too much glue. Keep the CA around for quick field repairs, or where you want to harden a piece of wood, like the rear fuse formers and sides where the rubber peg goes through, or thin sheet balsa that you will be grabbing. Regular model cement can do the same thing, and if you don't like the orange tint of Ambroid, there is SIGment, Testors in two diferent formulations, and ,lots of guys like DUCO houshold cement. DUCO used to make a specific model airplane glue, but I don't think it's available anymore.
   MAN! I'm getting the itch to build !!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

Regular model cement can do the same thing, and if you don't like the orange tint of Ambroid, there is SIGment, Testors in two diferent formulations, and ,lots of guys like DUCO houshold cement. DUCO used to make a specific model airplane glue, but I don't think it's available anymore.

  I used regular old Duco a lot. But last time I got some, it came in a plastic squeeze bottle than was hard to use directly, and then leaked air so that in about a week it was like jello. I just throw acetone in it and let it sit overnight, and everything is OK again.

   Brett

[Bill Adair]

I loved Ambroid, and used nothing else for years.

I'll bet some of my old blue jeans from grade school days, could still stand by themselves in the corner! 

Also, I don't remember the orange color showing through any of the crude finishes I did.

Now with micro R/C assist so popular, I really hope to build a few stick and tissue models again.

Bill

[john e. holliday]

Went to the hobby shop last evening to get some stuff.  Was needing mixing cups for the epoxy.  Also looked for some glue like Ambroid and SIGment.   No Ambroid and SIGment was the little tiny tubes.  So no glue until I get to ACE Hardware and can get some DUCO.  Not many hobby shops in KC area now that America's Hobby Center on Metcalf closed down. 

[Jason Greer]

I've been using Titebond II recently and have been really pleased with the results.  It's readily available and inexpensive.  I just finished a Korda using entirely Titebond and it turned out great.  It sands easily and if the proper amount of glue is used in each joint, the parts can be handled after about 15 minutes.  Another plus is that it leaves no discoloration on the wood after it has cured. 

Jason

[Bootlegger]

  Like Brett said, use Duco if you can get it.
 Locally Family Dollar carries it in tubes, and that is where I pick it up at.
 It dries quickly, and does a good job...

[Mike Keville]

Yep, I forgot about Duco.  Great stuff!  Dries clear (and quickly).  Sands easily too.  Just be sure to pre-glue* each piece.  It's available in the standard tubes at Ace Hardware.

(* If 'pre-glue' is a term unknown to you, let me know.)

[Brad Smith]

Ok what is pre glue?

[Tim Wescott]

Celluloid glues like Ambroid and Duco like to soak into the wood.  So much so, that if you just put glue on the joint and put it together, the wood slurps it up and doesn't leave anything behind to actually make a glue joint.

So you need to apply glue to the parts being joined, right where they'll be joined, let it dry, then apply a touch more glue and actually assemble.

It sounds way more involved than it actually is.  You can easily develop a rhythm: you pre-glue a part, then you fit the next one, then you glue your part, then pre-glue the next one, and repeat.

[Tim Wescott]

For stick and tissue models, don't use the ca. It cures rock hard. When your trying to sand before covering, you will be removing a lot of balsa but leaving raised tips of hard glue, making covering almost impossible (don't ask how I know this).

That's 100% true for thin CA, because it soaks into the wood (and it's heavy).

"Gap filling" CA doesn't, and if you're sparing with the glue (i.e., if you don't use the bottle as an applicator) you can build pretty darned light.  I built a indoor Bostonian with gap-filling CA; I put a little pool of CA onto a card, then picked it up with a bit of wire with a loop on the end.  Basically, I was putting a droplet onto the end of a 1/16" square stick that was just enough to glue it on and no more.

What I ended up with was no harder to sand and (I suspect) no heavier than if I'd built with Duco.

But, when you're building a stick and tissue model you spend a lot more time sanding to fit than you do gluing, so you don't lose much time by using Ambroid.

[Jim Howell]

A potential cellulose glue candidate that hasn't been mentioned is Green Tube Testors wood glue.  IMO, it ranks right along side of Ambroid, Duco, and Sigment.  I have found it at the craft stores like Hobby Lobby and Michaels.  I haven't bought any for several years. tho', so don't know about current availability.  When word got out that the formula for the cellulose glues were under attack by the EPA, I bought a box of 24 tubes of the green tube Testors and put it away for safe keeping.  Still use my cellulose glues, epoxies - sparingly -  Titebond II, and PVA glues like Elmer's Glue All for my FF models.  Just pick and choose for application.  Sometimes greater strength is desired, sometimes a bit of flexibility, but always with an eye to weight.

Jim Howell
Huntsville, AL

[dale gleason]

To me, "pre-glue" is what Matt Kania called "stronger than balsa" gluing method. It was on all his Sterling profile plans to be used on the LE and Spar joints.

[Hoss Cain]

A potential cellulose glue candidate that hasn't been mentioned is Green Tube Testors wood glue.  IMO, it ranks right along side of Ambroid, Duco, and Sigment.  I have found it at the craft stores like Hobby Lobby and Michaels.  I haven't bought any for several years. tho', so don't know about current availability.  When word got out that the formula for the cellulose glues were under attack by the EPA, I bought a box of 24 tubes of the green tube Testors and put it away for safe keeping.  Still use my cellulose glues, epoxies - sparingly -  Titebond II, and PVA glues like Elmer's Glue All for my FF models.  Just pick and choose for application.  Sometimes greater strength is desired, sometimes a bit of flexibility, but always with an eye to weight.

Jim Howell
Huntsville, AL

WOW! This is an excellent thread. I wondered whatever happened to Testor's glues, Form. A and Form. B which I used for many years. I never liked Ambroid as it was too slow, drippy, and runnery (my words).    Back in my days Duco took far too long to dry. Testors Formula A was great for field repairs and Formula B was my building main cement. Now I have not seen Testor's for 30 years. Thanks Jim for the clue about Hobby Lobby. I will check that out very soon. 

Sigment, Gents, is nothing more than Testor's B in a very leaky tube that has a nozzle tube far too big for cement applications. I wind up using CA, both fast and slow, most of the time, but the white/carpenter's glues also as I feel the need. Lots of epoxy glues find their way, but since I haven't done FF for 40+/- years, I don't worry about weight. I use to complain to SIG about that, but they never answered my complaints, so be it!

 Since I use a lot of CA, I have bought it from Frank Tiano's shop in FL. I order big amounts of both quick and the slower, keep it in my Garage Freezer. Now using stuff bought about 3 years ago and it's all fine, when it warms up. Been doing that for some 18 years.

[Tim Wescott]

The indoor rubber guys take Duco cement and put it in a plastic bottle a metal capillary tube on the cap, then put in enough acetone so that it flows like thinned dope.  Then they build planes with it.

Something about not wanting to weigh down a plane that's built with 4 pound balsa...

They do the whole double-glue thing, but in addition if they want to make a trim change they can just put a drop of solvent (or their glue mixture, in a pinch) on the joint and it comes loose.  Then they adjust, put on a drop of solvent or glue, hold, count to ten, and go fly.

I stand in awe...

[Jack Pitcher]

Another choice for cellulose glue is Beacon 527. I've found it in 2 oz tubes at the local Jo-Ann fabric store. It's clear like Sigment and smells and handles about the same. I like to thin it about half with acetone or dope thinner and dispense it from a seperate bottle with a smallish tip. Picked up this tip from the Hip Pocket Aeronautics web site, where some of the FF builders reported using it.

Jack

[Dan McEntee]

  We have been stocking Ambroid at Mark TWain Hobby in St.Charles, MO. It has been spotty in availability sometimes, but we're getting it from somewhere!
   Dan McEntee

[Ara Dedekian]

     Been hooked on FF Scale and the Flying Aces Club Nats in Geneseo N.Y. for the last four years. It's the equivalent of attending Brodaks or VSC. I use cyano on 99.9% of a Free Flight build. Sanding,weight, and wicking issues are resolved by controling the amount of glue applied to a joint. It's done by using the head of a common pin as an applicator. It holds just enough for one joint and provides the required strength. Dip into a large drop of CA on a piece of waxed paper to load the pinhead. Sticking the pin into a bamboo skewer makes a convenient holder and enables you to reach confined spaces further into the build. Works for me! The 13" Corsair below was built using cyano.

Ara Dedekian

[Norm Furutani]

I like using CA. To control the amount of glue, I use a variation of Ara's technique. Instead of a pin head, use the eye of a sewing needle. Grind off the end of the eye so it looks like a Y. Dip in a puddle of CA and it loads the Y. Touch the joint and the CA unloads. Use different size needles to control the amount of glue. After a awhile, the Y will clog, burn off the residue with a lighter.

This technique also works if you need a little drop of oil or other liquid.

NormF, FF guy, wannabe ukie guy

[GGeezer]

I build a lot of scale models for Flying Aces competition. I use all kinds of different adhesives depending on the application. For balsa structures, I prefer CA but I use techniques developed after much experimenting . The secret to a good CA joint is glue viscosity and method of application. I also prefer the rubber toughened CAs like Bob Smith's Insta-Flex.

I first make good fitting tight joints and then like Tim, I use a dabber (Square ended piece if 1/16" wire) to apply a drop of adhesive to the joint. Now glue viscosity is very important. The thin CA just wicks away from the joint rendering it unglued. The gap filling is too viscous to wick into the joint and stays on the surface... all not good.

What to do... we need something in between, so buy a bottle of thin and a bottle of gap filling, squeeze a small equal amount of each into a small container (I use a plastic Coke bottle cap stuck at a 45 degree angle on a chunk of plasticine) and mix together. Mix only the amount you will use at that time. Apply a drop to the joint and watch to see how long it takes to wick in. The viscosity is just right if the time period is around 5 seconds. Depending on the size of the joint, a drop or two is all that is needed. I find that a 50:50 mix usually works for fresh CA but you may have to adjust the ratio depending on the age of the CA.

The glue now stays in the joint area and doesn't harden the surrounding balsa or stay on top of it, making it hard to sand.
This works fast and efficiently and makes strong joints. I will lay out and pin down a whole fuselage side or wing panel, then hit every joint with the custom mixed CA, wait a few minutes and the job's done.

Orv.