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Author Topic: Female set-asides in non-physical events.  (Read 2323 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« on: June 01, 2021, 09:46:03 PM »
This topic came up in the discussion of the cancelled F2 WC of 2020.

I have never agreed with the concept of female categories or set-asides in sports that don't involve brute force. 
Boxing, weight-lifting, hockey, golf, sure, have a separate event.

Over the years there have been a few notable wins by girls in CL.  But there isn't any justification for a crave-out or set aside.

But the FAI matches to their own drummer and if they offer a position, somebody might as well take it.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2021, 10:08:06 PM »
I listened to the Indianapolis 500 yesterday.

Near the end I was saddened to hear that even the great Rodger Penske was forced to take a knee to the inclusion / diversity / affirmative action forces.

They had a testimonial from the manager of the usual woman driver entry.  She effectively admitted that Rodger had set them up with a dialed-in ready to quality car.  I believe that there are MILLIONS of men who could quality for the Indy 500 if Rodger gave them a ride.

So the FAI adding one team slot per nation is chump change compared to bumping a man out of the starting field of 33.
Paul Smith

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 07:10:50 AM »
I got to watch the race for the first time in decades (usually at a contest this day every year).  I think there are different motivations.  In the case of Indy,  Roger OWNS the track.  If women race then women are more likely to watch and become race fans and financially support the sport.  In our sport I think it's more about trying to attract more to the hobby just to keep it alive.  I'm OK with that.  A bonus is when they are interested they can help run events as we find it harder to get guys to step into those rolls.

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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2021, 07:41:04 AM »
Perhaps she should have built her own car, just like everyone builds their own F2D models.  VD~

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2021, 11:39:30 AM »
Perhaps she should have built her own car, just like everyone builds their own F2D models.  VD~
???  There are proxy pilots in some categories of our hobby i.e. combat using imported Ukrainian and Russian aircraft, why not proxy drivers in Indy/NASCAR?  Thousands of people compete in a myriad of events worldwide and don't "build" their equipment be it vehicles, planes, tractor trailers, luges, sleds, weight lifting, etcetera, etcetera!  Jus' askin'!!   ???

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2021, 11:45:30 AM »
In reality, Indy cars are just much like F2D and F2C.

Anybody can buy cars & engines, but putting them together still takes a lot of skill & experience.  It's just a matter of money.
Paul Smith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 01:07:10 PM »
They had a testimonial from the manager of the usual woman driver entry.  She effectively admitted that Rodger had set them up with a dialed-in ready to quality car.  I believe that there are MILLIONS of men who could quality for the Indy 500 if Rodger gave them a ride.


   To be fair, many or even most of the drivers in professional racing are "buy-a-ride" types, where daddy/uncle Joe/some company chooses a driver to develop and promote, and then pay the teams large amounts of money, as long as they take their chosen driver. That doesn't mean they are not good drivers, it just means that you can definitely buy your way into any series with enough money.  I can tell you with near 100% certainty that, say, Nikita Mazepin (AKA "Mazespin",driver for the Haas F1 team ) is not the best available driver, but his dad has *a lot* of money. But others, this is their only way into the sport, and another pay/heavily sponsored new driver (Yuki Tsunoda, for Alpha Tauri F1) seems to be pretty good, and same with Lance Stroll (Aston Martin F1) is frequently faster than his 4-time World Champion teammate Sebastian Vettel.

   This goes all the way down to go-carts, many kids are priced out before they even get a chance. Lewis Hamilton, O. B. E.  (6-time F1 champion with the best record in formula 1 history) commented not long ago on how he would never have made it today, because his dad couldn't have afforded what it took to work his way up. And he is arguably the best driver in F1 history (certainly on the short list).

    Simona Di Silvestro is probably not going to be super-in-demand for a lot of highly-paid salaries from teams, but she no doubt brings a lot of sponsor money to the team, and that is how you win.

     I also highly doubt that there are "millions" of men capable of qualifying for an Indy 500 with ideal equipment - maybe, more like dozens to perhaps 100. It is *notoriously* tricky and history is rife with examples of the best drivers and teams failing to qualify, the most obvious being Team Penske across-the-board  DNQ at the 95 race - Fittipaldi and Little Al, backed by the best team, knocked out by privateers.

        Brett

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 05:23:44 PM »
Roger Penski is not perfect.

But you did need to dig back 36 years to find a failure.

The real racer was AJ Foyt.  He owned, financed, designed, built, and drove his own cars.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 06:51:48 PM »
But you did need to dig back 36 years to find a failure.

   For the *far most notable* failure, not the last one. Oy gevalt.

    Brett

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2021, 08:14:36 PM »
Roger Penski is the most successful man in auto racing and a lot other things he does.

But when The House wins EVERY game, it kills the game.  Mr. Penski understands this.
Paul Smith

Offline Mike Callas

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 12:08:38 AM »
Roger Penski is not perfect.

But you did need to dig back 36 years to find a failure.

The real racer was AJ Foyt.  He owned, financed, designed, built, and drove his own cars.

Great respect for guys like Foyt, Gurney, McLaren, Brabham, Hall.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 02:27:03 AM »
Isn't Indy a demanding race course requiring great driving skill and physical endurance to win? What is this discussion about? Drivers of race cars are not required to build their cars. Builders and sponsors back who they want, hire who they want. They hire drivers who can win. Drivers need the skill set, talent, physical ability. Where is the female set aside, here? She drove the car. Competed against whoever showed up. Did someone here actually say, millions of men could have driven this car and won? An absurd opinion. A laughable opinion. Few have the dedication and talent, male or female to even drive the 500. Winning, a rare individual. Let's not denigrate a person's achievement because of her sex.   

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2021, 02:30:18 AM »
Is there a female set aside in FAI events? Do females compete in a separate category? News to me.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 02:56:16 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline BillLee

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2021, 06:16:11 AM »
Is there a female set aside in FAI events?
Yes.

The FAI rule reads:

C.5.3
National team for World and Continental Championships
a) For those categories that do not have separate Junior World and Continental Championships, a
national team may consist of a maximum of 5 individual competitors or 5 pairs of competitors for
each category, providing that at least one competitor (or pair) is Female and at least one is Junior;
and a Team Manager.

All Females and Juniors will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a
Female classification and a Junior classification, both with FAI medals and diplomas.

b) For those categories that have separate Junior World and Continental Championships, the
national team may consist of a maximum of 4 competitors (or pairs), providing at least one
competitor (or pair) is Female; and a Team Manager.

All Females will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a Female
classification with FAI medals and diplomas.



 
Do females compete in a separate category? News to me.
As you see from the rules above: yes.

BTW, if anybody is interested in the pertinent FAI rules that govern F2, you will need these two documents:

https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/ciam/sc4_vol_ciam_general_rules_21.pdf
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/ciam/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_21.pdf

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Online Mike Griffin

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2021, 09:17:32 AM »
What exactly is the argument about here?  Am I missing something?

Mike

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2021, 09:33:11 AM »
What exactly is the argument about here?  Am I missing something?

Mike
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2021, 09:45:13 AM »
All Females and Juniors will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a
Female classification and a Junior classification, both with FAI medals and diplomas.

b) For those categories that have separate Junior World and Continental Championships, the
national team may consist of a maximum of 4 competitors (or pairs), providing at least one
competitor (or pair) is Female; and a Team Manager.

All Females will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a Female
classification with FAI medals and diplomas.[/font]

   Anyone you might actually want as a new stunt competitor would/should see this sort of "Powder Puff" division as the worst kind of pandering.

    It's exactly in line with other promotional efforts for women I have seen for years for STEM, the AMA, etc - the sort of idea that old men might come up with to interest girls There seems to be absolutely no consideration for defining what "problems" there might be with women competitors - or even of there are any problems that are solved by organizers - and addressing those. They look at the competitor mix, it's 99.9999% boys/men, the population is 49/51, therefore that is a "problem" that must be "solved".

    I sincerely doubt that this is the result of structural flaws with the rules or competition system, therefore screwing around with the rules trying to fix it makes no sense. So we come up with "free ride" systems that might get a few more women to show up. They will get 75% of the pictures in the contest report, so, "problem" is "solved" in the cosmetic sense.

  No one ever seems to notice the other statistical fact  - male model airplane competitors make up some absurdly low fraction of the population. Figure, for stunt purposes, and being very generous, there are 3000 competitors. The world population is 7.85 *billion*, so competitors of all types make up 3.2x10-7 percent of the population, that is, 0.00000032%. The fact that of the 3000, there are maybe 25 women, is entirely irrelevant - the entire exercise, regardless of gender,  is one of the most niche of hyper-niche activities that could be imagined.

     I would be all for fixing things to make the competition more fair and remove barriers to participation. We even had a thread were we discussed what I think is a *real* barrier to girls/women participation - boiling down to the fact that they would be such an extreme anomaly that the entire event descends upon them trying to "promote" them. This makes them the center of attention, whether they want that or not, and unless you want to be the new "face of the event", they will quickly get overwhelmed and driven off. Same thing we do, to a lesser degree, with beginners - they immediately get so much attention and well-meaning but frequently overbearing "help", that it makes them feel like everyone is counting on them and watching them, so now, instead of having fun learning to do the stunts, the are now everyone's new best friends.

     Brett
   

   

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2021, 10:59:48 AM »
I read the thread on the F2 World Championship and see the "Female" team member talk has spilled over here. My whole family of 4 is rather new to the sport, but my wife and daughter (age 8) have started to do some flying and could potentially develop to a point where they go after that spot.

I want to know how a "female" team member who may not be competitive with Expert level flyers would impact the overall team. Is there a "team score" that is impacted by her presence? Does it somehow diminish the team? I know there is a price tag that would come with going to the event, but I am wondering about the drawbacks and impact on others if a not so competitive female where to take a place on the team. In my mind, if my daughter were 13 and defaulted onto the team because she was the only female, I still think there is an experience and memory to be had even if she posts the worst score at the World Championship. Finally, please know that I really know nothing about the World Championship, so please feel free to school me on this thread. Also, don't hold back in responding trying to be PC. I want to know the real thoughts and dynamics at play in the scenario I just presented.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2021, 11:27:43 AM »
I read the thread on the F2 World Championship and see the "Female" team member talk has spilled over here. My whole family of 4 is rather new to the sport, but my wife and daughter (age 8) have started to do some flying and could potentially develop to a point where they go after that spot.

I want to know how a "female" team member who may not be competitive with Expert level flyers would impact the overall team. Is there a "team score" that is impacted by her presence? Does it somehow diminish the team?

   To be clear, I don't see how this hurts anything very much- but I also doubt that it will solve the problem that these sorts of "special carveouts" are intended to solve.

    Not just doubt, I state categorically that it won't work, presuming the goal is to significantly increase the participation of either women or juniors, because I don't think that will happen.

     Brett

p. s. Suppose it is 100% successful and every team (say, 30 teams) sends a woman to the WC. Those that are not competitive in general are competing for a "powder puff" trophy that basically tells everyone that they were uncompetitive and only got a trophy due to a 51/49 quirk of genetics. Those that are competitive in general could presumably have made the team without the carveout. So, at the end, what has been accomplished? Tell most of the women that they can only compete if they have special treatment with an extreme off chance that one of them becomes generally competitive - a situation which has not happened at all for the entire history of the event.

     How is stunt now better off, or the cause of gender equality enhanced?  If anything, it seems like an insult or admission that women can't compete otherwise. Which doesn't seem to be the case nor can I see any reason any woman without what was formerly defined as a handicap could not compete on a completely equal basis to men. What is next, a free team spot for Autistic Spectrum Disorder men over 60?  Howard and I get our own contest now?
   

Offline phil c

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2021, 12:01:10 PM »
Perhaps she should have built her own car, just like everyone builds their own F2D models.  VD~

Yeah, riiiight!!
Phil C
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2021, 12:21:12 PM »
Brett, I could not agree with your last two posts more.   More women will compete when more women want to compete and the barriers to that lay completely outside of Stunt.   As for the slot for Autistic Spectrum Disorder men over 60, that might draw more entries than you expect!

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Offline phil c

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2021, 12:54:01 PM »
Perhaps she should have built her own car, just like everyone builds their own F2D models.  VD~

Yeah, riiiight!!
Phil C
Yes.

The FAI rule reads:

C.5.3
National team for World and Continental Championships
a) For those categories that do not have separate Junior World and Continental Championships, a
national team may consist of a maximum of 5 individual competitors or 5 pairs of competitors for
each category, providing that at least one competitor (or pair) is Female and at least one is Junior;
and a Team Manager.

All Females and Juniors will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a
Female classification and a Junior classification, both with FAI medals and diplomas.

b) For those categories that have separate Junior World and Continental Championships, the
national team may consist of a maximum of 4 competitors (or pairs), providing at least one
competitor (or pair) is Female; and a Team Manager.

All Females will compete for the overall individual classification. Additionally, there is a Female
classification with FAI medals and diplomas.



 As you see from the rules above: yes.

BTW, if anybody is interested in the pertinent FAI rules that govern F2, you will need these two documents:

https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/ciam/sc4_vol_ciam_general_rules_21.pdf
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/ciam/sc4_vol_f2_controlline_21.pdf

Regards,

Bill Lee

This is a prime example  of "Equity" worming into the game.
"Additionally, there is a Female classification with FAI medals and diplomas."

In other words, there WILL be a "legitimate" female overall winner- forced by the structure of the event.

I think there may very well be a "market" for women and girls to fly Precision Aerobatics to win against other like flyers.  The attention to detail, fit,  and finish  mixes well with similar activities such as sewing  and quilting.  The Brodak contest eventually attracted some six to eight in PA, Combat, Racing, Perky Speed, and maybe some others over the years.
phil Cartier

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2021, 01:06:59 PM »
This is a prime example  of "Equity" worming into the game.
"Additionally, there is a Female classification with FAI medals and diplomas."

In other words, there WILL be a "legitimate" female overall winner- forced by the structure of the event.

I think there may very well be a "market" for women and girls to fly Precision Aerobatics to win against other like flyers.  The attention to detail, fit,  and finish  mixes well with similar activities such as sewing  and quilting.  The Brodak contest eventually attracted some six to eight in PA, Combat, Racing, Perky Speed, and maybe some others over the years.

   I don't have any problem at all with "equality" - but making a special category is the very definition of "unequal".

   To me it is obvious that women could compete heads-up with men in stunt, and you could argue have an advantage in fine motor control. What is missing is any woman willing to/crazy enough to put in the obsessive, life-altering, effort it takes to compete a the highest levels.  My point above was that there are also exceptionally few men that have done it to that level, too, a vanishingly small percentage, maybe <100 people in the last 70 years.  That they all happen to have been men is irrelevant, the fact that anyone has ever done what it takes, for such a fundamentally trivial an unproductive goal, is tribute to/symptom of  something odd/special. And this is coming from someone who actually has skirted the edge of this insanity for 50 years.

    Brett

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2021, 01:59:41 PM »
   To be clear, I don't see how this hurts anything very much- but I also doubt that it will solve the problem that these sorts of "special carveouts" are intended to solve.

    Not just doubt, I state categorically that it won't work, presuming the goal is to significantly increase the participation of either women or juniors, because I don't think that will happen.

     Brett

p. s. Suppose it is 100% successful and every team (say, 30 teams) sends a woman to the WC. Those that are not competitive in general are competing for a "powder puff" trophy that basically tells everyone that they were uncompetitive and only got a trophy due to a 51/49 quirk of genetics. Those that are competitive in general could presumably have made the team without the carveout. So, at the end, what has been accomplished? Tell most of the women that they can only compete if they have special treatment with an extreme off chance that one of them becomes generally competitive - a situation which has not happened at all for the entire history of the event.

     How is stunt now better off, or the cause of gender equality enhanced?  If anything, it seems like an insult or admission that women can't compete otherwise. Which doesn't seem to be the case nor can I see any reason any woman without what was formerly defined as a handicap could not compete on a completely equal basis to men. What is next, a free team spot for Autistic Spectrum Disorder men over 60?  Howard and I get our own contest now?
 

I've had conversations with several Junior/Senior Nat's champs from the past 30 years or so.  Many tell tales of burnout, the excessive help and attention that Brett mentioned and pressure from parents to fly and practice when they didn't even want to. Last time I checked, this was supposed to be a fun hobby...

 Take a look at the Jr/Sr Nat's trophies.  Of the winners from the past, how many are currently flying as adults?  It seems that a separate event for women would only encourage this behavior, and be contradictive to it's internet.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2021, 04:58:28 PM »
Is there a female set aside in FAI events? Do females compete in a separate category? News to me.

NO!  Women do not compete separately, but there is a special additional slot to allow them to enter in addition to the selected team.
The existence of this provision implies that the FAI does not believe that women could quality as equals. 
Feminists could (quite rightly) view this as condescension.
Paul Smith

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2021, 11:41:32 PM »
If women race then women are more likely to watch and become race fans and financially support the sport.  In our sport I think it's more about trying to attract more to the hobby just to keep it alive.

Dave

When I first read this, I was reminded of the marketing Einsteins at Cessna in the 70's who wanted to get more women out of their homes and learning to fly.  They decided they'd start painting planes those same Goldenrod and Olive colors that all the kitchen appliances were painted.  They figured women would feel more comfortable.  They didn't understand women learned to fly to get away from the kitchen and those damned olive and goldenrod appliances chaining them down.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2021, 11:57:10 PM »
I've had conversations with several Junior/Senior Nat's champs from the past 30 years or so.  Many tell tales of burnout, the excessive help and attention that Brett mentioned and pressure from parents to fly and practice when they didn't even want to. Last time I checked, this was supposed to be a fun hobby...

     I think this is why recruiting and promotion doesn't seem to work. My observation is that the only people who really stick with it have pursued it on their own volition. In many cases the promotion and inordinate attention we pay to kids and beginner is *usually* ineffective or counterproductive. For girls/women it seems to be *far worse*, they immediately become everyone's new favorite cover girl and are essentially fawned over. Some people might like that or seek it out, but I think many more will be driven away.

    Note that this is not just stunt, much of the "STEM Education" stuff I see (in theory and practice) is similar. I know a few women who have gone into engineering and pursued it as a career (and are very sharp) but they have had to deal with the fact that everywhere they went they stood out. They either put up with it to pursue it because they really enjoyed engineering, or that they liked being the center of attention.

     For someone who just wants to learn to fly model airplanes, getting immediately anointed as the face of the event merely by being a woman, has got to be intimidating and is a tremendous amount of pressure to put on someone who is just learning. It's hard enough to learn the craft of being competitive even if you can do it as a pace and manner that suits you, having to live up to everyone else's expectations is extremely daunting.

    Brett

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2021, 05:25:20 AM »
I fully agree with Sean and Brett on this. When I was growing up, I was given a couple kits, but not showered with them. I also always wanted to fly airplanes, ever since I could remember. One of my first memories was my preschool teacher asking everyone what they wanted to be when they grow up, I said I wanted to be an airplane. My grandfather never forced me to fly, it was always, “do you want to go flying today?” When we would go flying, he would harp on my wingover pullout or flying too high on my outside maneuvers. But we had fun! If anything, I started to have my grandpa go to contests he didn’t really want to go to, like the NATS. I’m a highly competitive person, I want to be good at anything I set my mind to, and ever since I was a beginner or intermediate level flyer, I think I subconsciously wanted to be as good as I possibly could in stunt. At my first NATS, one of my fellow senior competitors, told me he really didn’t enjoy flying that much, he started at first by flying with his grandpa and spending time with him. It evolved into the need to fly and it sucked the enjoyment out of the hobby.


At Embry-Riddle, where I went to college, the student population is something like 75% male, 25% female. The total amount of female pilots in the world is less than 10%, and those holding an ATP is something like 5%. Those women pilots got a lot of attention (as I’m sure you all could imagine) in college, and I’m fairly sure they get the same amount now at the airlines but in a far more professional way.

So what am I trying to say in this long drawn out post? Basically that you can’t force kids to be interested in the event, CL stunt specifically, without them having interest on their own. not every kid wants to become the next Paul Walker/Dave Fitzgerald. Some want to enjoy the hobby for what it is, and that’s okay. We can’t herald them as the savior of the event. Kids grow up and priorities change. I don’t get to fly as much as I want, but I love when I get to. Hardly any women are interested in the event, and that’s okay too. I don’t think the women FAI category is going to drive them away, but I do not think it will garner any more interest in them learning how to fly (why I cited the percentage of female pilots and those holding an ATP). My wife has heard me talk about airplanes pretty much every single day in some form or fashion since we first started dating. She’s not interested in flying whatsoever, but supports me in my hobby that allows me to use my brain, problem solve, and try to get better.
Matt Colan

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2021, 06:11:28 AM »
     I think this is why recruiting and promotion doesn't seem to work. My observation is that the only people who really stick with it have pursued it on their own volition. In many cases the promotion and inordinate attention we pay to kids and beginner is *usually* ineffective or counterproductive. For girls/women it seems to be *far worse*, they immediately become everyone's new favorite cover girl and are essentially fawned over. Some people might like that or seek it out, but I think many more will be driven away.

    Note that this is not just stunt, much of the "STEM Education" stuff I see (in theory and practice) is similar. I know a few women who have gone into engineering and pursued it as a career (and are very sharp) but they have had to deal with the fact that everywhere they went they stood out. They either put up with it to pursue it because they really enjoyed engineering, or that they liked being the center of attention.

     For someone who just wants to learn to fly model airplanes, getting immediately anointed as the face of the event merely by being a woman, has got to be intimidating and is a tremendous amount of pressure to put on someone who is just learning. It's hard enough to learn the craft of being competitive even if you can do it as a pace and manner that suits you, having to live up to everyone else's expectations is extremely daunting.

    Brett

     Precisely.  Those adults currently involved, that were competing as juniors (I've been essentially flying models since birth!), are still in it because of a genuine interest in the hobby.

     Here's my observation, over the past twenty-something years of modeling as a teen and young adult:

     -There are tons of kids that are introduced to modeling as a father-son activity, (with a few father-daughter teams who admittedly got their daughter involved because they weren't "gifted" with a son), with the intent of being something relaxing to do on a sunny sunday afternoon.  Once they get into the contest circuit, they are deluged with praise (which isnt bad of course) and inundated with opinions of what they should build, what motor they should run, how much they need to practice, how they can improve their score, and so on.  Kids with experienced modelers (like my dad was/is), can shield them from those issues and keep their kid on a guided program.  Parents who aren't modelers, however, cannot, and can become just as overwhelmed with all of this well-intended advice, and be driven away.

     -There are "soccer dads" out there, who flew as a kid themselves, but didn't reach the level of success that they wanted, and want their kid to get there so that they may live vicariously through them.

     -Some kids do have a real interest in flying, but through the pressures of practice and building, many must forfeit their social life, which is important for teenagers.  I've heard many folks talk about having to spend the weekends building on a model for the Nat's, or be out practicing, or spending weekends in the car traveling to and from contests, instead of hanging out with their friends.  This compares to Olympic-level dedication and training, only there are no gold medals, media coverage, or Nike endorsements at the end of the road.  Is this comparatively trite pastime REALLY worth that sacrifice in the long term?

      -Then, little Johnny turns 19, and is now an open competitor. He's not getting nearly as much praise or attention as he was a junior or senior.  He has to fly in either the PAMPA classes or Open at the Nats.  He's not bringing home the "Highest Scoring Junior/Senior" trophies that many contests give out.  The consequential vacuum can be psychologically damaging at that age.

      Having said all of that, yes, some kids thrive on the pressure of competition, and soak up the attention.  Some kids have a genuinely good time, grow up, begin demanding careers (I think Robbie Gruber went to law school and is working for a pretty big law firm, last I talked to him, many years ago), and just don't have the time.  Some, and this is key, was something to do with dad, and would get back into the hobby when they have kids.  However, I think we're losing alot of interest by the thing that makes this community great: willingness to help and watch fellow modelers learn, grow and succeed.

      Kids view contests very differently from adults.  When I was a kid, it was a very linier focus: make it to the awards podium.  As an adult, I really couldn't care less at this point lol.  I really enjoy building these days (I HATED building as a kid, as dad can attest to, having to almost tie me to a chair at the building table).  The comradery and social aspect of contests is something that kids don't fully grasp as adults do, and a big reason I enjoy going to contests. Finally, there are the fond memories of going to contests with my dad, that are relived by going to contests now.  We rarely make it to the same contests anymore, but I still think back to those days, and when we do make it to the same contest together its a blast.  This needs to be parent's goals for kids, and is what is going to keep them involved in adulthood.  Parent's need to make modeling FUN, not a job.  If your kids doesn't like airplanes, then it is what it is.  If he/she likes flying but not competitively, that's cool too, and it may not always be that way.  Maybe compeditive interest will creep in once they get older.  I first flew CL at 3 but didn't learn the pattern until 12.

      We need to STOP  trying to breed the next 8 year Nat's champ or WC team member. 9 of 10 kids wont make it there at that age.  What we NEED to do for kids, is make it as fun as possible.  Keep praising the kids , but stop telling them and their parents that they need an SV11/PA combo if they're going to be successful.  Stop dragging them to the flying field if they don't want to go. If we, as a group, make it fun for the kids, it will plant that seed that, once they reach adulthood, increases the likelyhood of getting back into the hobby, once their adult life is established and they have the time/finances to do so.  THIS approach is what is going to keep the hobby alive.

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2021, 07:04:22 AM »
What Sean said ^^^^^

One more example. I  played three sports from 1st grade through middle school. Once 7th grade came around, I wasn’t enjoying soccer anymore, and would rather be flying on the weekend or after school. I told my parents I didn’t want to play next year and I spent more time in the backyard flying. I continued to play basketball and baseball through high school, but I spent more time enjoying what I liked to do.

When my wife and I start a family, our kids will obviously be exposed to model airplanes, but I will not force them into it. Only if they have an interest will I get them involved. I want it to be fun for them just as it’s been fun for me all these years. I still love to compete, and NATS competition gets me incredibly excited to fly amongst the best. The people make it all worth it too, as Sean said
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2021, 07:26:10 AM »
Yes, Sean is right.  I too am guilty of forcing my son to compete.  He loved racing and carrier.   It was fun for him until he had to compete with the older guys nationally.  Once he graduated from high school it was work.    Now I look back and tell my self I should have spent more time just flying for fun.  But that is history now and I'm trying to get some of my kin to join me in just flying for fun.   If they want to learn to build fine, I can supply the planes for flying. D>K
 
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2021, 11:26:39 AM »
At Embry-Riddle, where I went to college, the student population is something like 75% male, 25% female.
I am really pleased that so many are recognizing that nothing that we can actively do will attract more women and juniors.  What we need to do is not drive off those that do show interest.  The BOM is a problem for attracting newcomers that have grown up in the "Made in China" generation and perhaps we can address that but the rest is really out of our hands.

Matt:  I sent you a PM.

Ken
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Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2021, 01:14:42 PM »
I am really pleased that so many are recognizing that nothing that we can actively do will attract more women and juniors.  What we need to do is not drive off those that do show interest.  The BOM is a problem for attracting newcomers that have grown up in the "Made in China" generation and perhaps we can address that but the rest is really out of our hands.

Matt:  I sent you a PM.

Ken

Unfortunately for my generation, that would hinder competition at a high level. But the BOM is no barrier for getting younger people interested in the event. It’s not as cool as other sports or video games unfortunately
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Female set-asides in non-physical events.
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2021, 02:01:37 PM »
Unfortunately for my generation, that would hinder competition at a high level. But the BOM is no barrier for getting younger people interested in the event. It’s not as cool as other sports or video games unfortunately
I agree that it is not a barrier to getting them to learn to fly but it is a barrier to getting them to compete.  You know my situation and if ever there was a time for me to want to scrap BOM it is now, but I still support it at the Advanced and Expert levels.  I hate it when I do that.

Ken
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