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Author Topic: Fancherized Twister Redux  (Read 5279 times)

Offline Ted Fancher

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Fancherized Twister Redux
« on: May 09, 2018, 06:04:34 PM »


With Idle time on my hands I found myself grinding up a bunch of  “at some point in the past” important papers that had been laying on my desk collecting mold.  While doing so I was surprised to discover, buried in the midst of them, was an 8.5" X 11" computer print out of Bob Kruger’s plan of his modestly modified F’ized Twister that almost certainly came directly from him while we were corresponding about it back in 2002 or so (I told you the stack of papers had a history!).

I reviewed it and, noting the changes obvious from the original 1987 MA articles, had a few memories refreshed and thought I’d add some comments that may be of interest to current and/or future builder/fliers.  Although Bob made some very well thought out construction mods (false ribs, thicker sheet for the stab/elevator, etc) the primary changes to the fundamental airworthiness of the alteration of the kit was, once again, at the tail end of things…reduced fuselage stretching and stab/elevator area increases to about 23% of the 490 square inch wing area shown on the plans, a significant increase over the stock tail feathers.

I’m sure Bob and I discussed the changes and the reasons for doing so.  We corresponded for a couple of weeks while he developed the drawing he later forwarded for my approval…the one I found in my stack of stuff!

The kitbash aerodynamic changes (both the ’87 and ’02 versions} were intended to update the kit to include the longer tail moment movement initiated by myself and others in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s and later, with Bob, to include the larger stabilizer/elevator…the combination of which provides improved stability accompanied by more aggressive cornering capability and much improved bad (windy) weather stunt patterns; i.e. the now ubiquitous larger tail volume/aft CG standard that gets rehashed regularly on-line and stunt guy face to stunt guy face. 

The reduction to a two inch stretch from the original 1987 three inch was the result of the larger tail area limiting any possible value of the longer stretch and the need to minimize the potential for the design ending up tail heavy if both the bigger (heavier) tail and three inch extension were employed.

After spending a leisurely hour or so reviewing the plan I could find only a couple of things I thought might further improve the concept as shown on the Kruger plans.  One a physical change and one enhanced flight trim capability not readily apparent on the plans.  Both, however, directly affecting the improved performance level of the points covered above.

The physical change I would advise would be to move the hingeline on the stab elevator aft a half inch or so making the stabilizer chord longer and the elevator chord shorter.  The Twister will generally build quite light (a good thing) but one result of lighter weight is reduced line tension for a given lap time.  Reduced line tension simultaneously reduces the amount of force the pilot has available to deflect the controls surfaces against the airflow forces resisting their deflection(we refer to that resistance as Hinge Loading).  The most significant factor in excessive hinge loading is the chord of the moveable surfaces…flaps and elevators.  The elevators on Bob’s drawing are noticeably greater in chord than the stock surfaces (as well as in span).  Reducing the elevator chord will reduce the hinge loading but will not, surprisingly to some, significantly effect the power of the stab/elevator combination to do our tricks.  The result will be better responsiveness in pitch which translates to less large muscle input to fly those tricks…a “very” good thing IMHO.

Bob’s plan in the side view appears upon first glance to indicate a very forward CG location (the classic circle, sectored into two black and two white slices of pie) appears “very” far forward for a design now utilizing the larger tail volume produced by the configuration mods.  The larger tail volume’s biggest asset is its impact on where the CG needs to be to provide stability while still allowing aggressive maneuvering.

Bob’s tail area is roughly 23% of the wing area and, when combined with the lengthened arm, is quite capable of allowing the CG to be further aft and still be perfectly stable and require less control input to achieve the desired radius of pitch axis maneuvering.  (Remember, that doesn’t mean “twitchy controls” in the modern adjustable handle era…trim the airplane to be its most aerodynamically sound for great patterns and then make the pilot happy by adjusting the line spacing at the handle to make the response rate and the pilot’s input sympatico!)

Based on some WAG measuring and a familiarity with the design I’m confident initial flights of a Kruger based F’ized Twister could have the dry (empty tank) CG located ¼ to 3/8 inch forward of the main spars and likely end up fractionally further aft when optimized for both the plane and its pilot.

Now, there appear to be many happy F'ized Twister pilots out there and I don't for a minute suggest they cut up their current happy ships because they're now dinosaurs.  If, however, you're about to build a new one and are using Bob's fine plans you might want to consider just a bit of additonal F'izing.

Ted Fancher



Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 07:57:00 AM »
I recently finished my Twister built to Bob’s plans. Once done I noticed it was considerably tail heavy per the plans. Mine balances on the LE of the spar. I intended to make a few adjustments to get it more like the CG shown on the plans but I thought it was rather far forward. After reading your post, I am going to set it 3/8” forward of the spar and see how I like it.

Matt

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 11:17:03 AM »
I recently finished my Twister built to Bob’s plans. Once done I noticed it was considerably tail heavy per the plans. Mine balances on the LE of the spar. I intended to make a few adjustments to get it more like the CG shown on the plans but I thought it was rather far forward. After reading your post, I am going to set it 3/8” forward of the spar and see how I like it.

Matt

I'm thinking that (3/8" forward of the spar) should be perfectly safe.

I'm curious what engine you're using (plus associated front end paraphernalia like muffler, spinner, tank etc.) and what the total weight of the airplane is to arrive with that initial CG.

Good luck, Matt.  Hope it works well for you.

Ted Fancher

p.s.  Set your leadouts as close together as your fixture will allow (1/2" is close enough) and locate the center of the leadouts an inch behind the CG at the wingtip for starters.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2018, 10:47:37 AM »
Could you summarize the difference to the Walter Umland Twister.

Sorry, Motorman, I know nothing first hand about that version. Is it supposed to be in the ilk of the "Fancherized" versions?

I'll do a little on-line research and will respond again if I find anything that might be pertinent to our discussion.

Ted

Offline BYU

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2018, 11:33:07 AM »
Could you summarize the difference to the Walter Umland Twister.

Bob Kruger’s plans were used by Walter as the basis for his kit.





Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2018, 06:22:39 PM »
The last thing I would want to do would be to dispute Walter's memory of what occurred between us re the unexpected second coming of an off the cuff project started way back in 1987 or something like that.  Given "Bob's your Uncle's" comments re the Kruger plans being the basis of Walter's kit I'm more than willing to lend full credence to Walter's web site declaration about my "authorization"...and blame it on yet another "old timer's moment".

Remember this is sort of the third resurrection of a project I more or less assumed would have a half life of a couple of months when I first wrote it 30 plus years ago.

In fact, I'm going to have to go perform a search of the spider web infested shop in my garage as my atrophied memory is now hinting I may have gotten a kit from Walter in thanks for the "authorization" to produce the kit.  If so I'll own up to it and post an addendum to this mea culpa to Walter.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 07:15:31 PM »
Okay...mea culpa...mea maxima culpa.  My apologies to Walter for my embarrassing memory fart.

I went immediately down to the shop and got out a ladder to get to the top of a very tall storage cabinet on which I've stacked a number of kits I've gathered over the years; both of my own designs as gifts for allowing them to be kitted and from giveaways/drawings/prizes at contests, etc.  Sure enough, sitting amongst them was a kit clearly labeled as an Umland production with the original clear tape sealing the box still in place.  Yup, an F'ized Twister.  More embarrassing yet was, after opening the box there was a very nice note of thanks from Walter wrapped up with a dandy set of plans which, upon inspection, turned out to be an only mildly edited--to recognize the Umland production of the kit--full scale reproduction of Bob Kruger's plans; a letter sized copy of which I had mentioned discovering in my "stack of stuff" earlier.

The bottom line after all this embarrassing blathering is that I can assure "Motorman" that the Umland kit has no significant differences from the Kruger plans and all the discussions in this and the previous F/Twister thread should assume that the efforts of those two gentlemen was completely in accord and reflective of their discussions with me over both Bob's modifications and Walter's strict conformation with Bob's final plan.

It is well worth noting, by the way, that I was very impressed with the quality of Walter's kit.  If they are still available his Twister is well worth a budding stunt flyer's  consideration.

Sorry for the confusion.

Ted


Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 01:21:31 PM »
Thanks for checking into that. I'd like to see plans for the full fuselage version of the Twister drawn up with all the mods. Perfect for a Brodak 40.
Motorman,

I'm personally unaware of any "full fuselage" Twister variants although I've no doubt that someone, somewhere, sometime has kit bashed such a thing.

Ted

Offline BYU

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 01:48:21 PM »
Thanks for checking into that. I'd like to see plans for the full fuselage version of the Twister drawn up with all the mods. Perfect for a Brodak 40.

A full fuselage version of the standard twister was designed by the late Allen Brickhaus. FM published it, it was called the Tornado.

https://store.flying-models.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=215

The SIG C/L Twister with a full-bodied fuselage
Plan ID: CF869
Designer: Brickhaus, Allen
Span: 48 in.
Engine: .28-.40
Issue: 11/91

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 03:43:10 PM »
But it doesn't have the Fancher mods.

With a box fuselage as simple as that one, it is as rudimentary as laying a ruler on the plans and drawing in the 2 inch stretch.  It's all straight lines.
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Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 08:36:37 PM »
I'm thinking that (3/8" forward of the spar) should be perfectly safe.

I'm curious what engine you're using (plus associated front end paraphernalia like muffler, spinner, tank etc.) and what the total weight of the airplane is to arrive with that initial CG.

Good luck, Matt.  Hope it works well for you.

Ted Fancher

p.s.  Set your leadouts as close together as your fixture will allow (1/2" is close enough) and locate the center of the leadouts an inch behind the CG at the wingtip for starters.

I never seem to get posting notifications here!

I posted some troubles I had in the electric section but Mine was originally set up with a Scorpion esc and an IFly 2820 850 KV motor. After those both smoked I pulled some heavier duty gear off the shelf and just finished the install less than an hour ago.
It is now powered with a Cobra 2826 930KV motor and a ZTW esc. 2200 4S battery is on board as well. It was 37 oz before the smoke. Probably gained 1.5-2oz with the new gear.

Matt

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 04:39:40 PM »
I never seem to get posting notifications here!

I posted some troubles I had in the electric section but Mine was originally set up with a Scorpion esc and an IFly 2820 850 KV motor. After those both smoked I pulled some heavier duty gear off the shelf and just finished the install less than an hour ago.
It is now powered with a Cobra 2826 930KV motor and a ZTW esc. 2200 4S battery is on board as well. It was 37 oz before the smoke. Probably gained 1.5-2oz with the new gear.

Matt

Aha! powered by Duracell, huh!  I'm anxious to hear how you like it.  Afraid I can't help at all re the power train but it sounds like you've got a handle on what's necessary.  Give us a report, Matt.

Ted

Offline Matt Brown

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 09:43:30 AM »
I got first couple short flights in a couple days ago. So far, I like the power setup. I found I had a bit of a warp or mid-aligned flaps as it was carrying the out board wing a couple inches high upright and low inverted. Seems like a bit more line tension would be desirable. Controls were really touchy. Couldn’t hold a decent level lap. CG was about 3/8” forward of the spar. It also wanted to tighten up maneuvers on me.
I completely missed putting in a hard point for the top end of the landing gear. I put in a brass tube but that wasn’t enough for flying off of grass. I’ll have to open up a hole to epoxy in a 1/2” dowel and put a new brass tube in.
It has potential once I get several things straightened out. The plane definitely has the capability even if I don’t!

Matt

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 10:26:28 AM »
So what should the chord of the elevator measure?

Link to plans: https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=8708 -- move the hinge line as suggested.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 10:28:37 AM »
I got first couple short flights in a couple days ago. So far, I like the power setup. I found I had a bit of a warp or mid-aligned flaps as it was carrying the out board wing a couple inches high upright and low inverted. Seems like a bit more line tension would be desirable. Controls were really touchy. Couldn’t hold a decent level lap. CG was about 3/8” forward of the spar. It also wanted to tighten up maneuvers on me.
I completely missed putting in a hard point for the top end of the landing gear. I put in a brass tube but that wasn’t enough for flying off of grass. I’ll have to open up a hole to epoxy in a 1/2” dowel and put a new brass tube in.
It has potential once I get several things straightened out. The plane definitely has the capability even if I don’t!

Matt

The warp that gives a couple of inches high should be easily visible.  Hold the plane with the spinner on your toe, and sight down the rear of the plane -- you should see equal amounts of wing above and below the back end of the flap, from root to tip.  If you don't, correct it!

This is a super-easy fix with 'coat.  I haven't actually done it with silkspan & dope, but my understanding is that it's easy there, too.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2018, 05:13:40 PM »
I got first couple short flights in a couple days ago. So far, I like the power setup. I found I had a bit of a warp or mid-aligned flaps as it was carrying the out board wing a couple inches high upright and low inverted. Seems like a bit more line tension would be desirable. Controls were really touchy. Couldn’t hold a decent level lap. CG was about 3/8” forward of the spar. It also wanted to tighten up maneuvers on me.
I completely missed putting in a hard point for the top end of the landing gear. I put in a brass tube but that wasn’t enough for flying off of grass. I’ll have to open up a hole to epoxy in a 1/2” dowel and put a new brass tube in.
It has potential once I get several things straightened out. The plane definitely has the capability even if I don’t!

Matt

     When you fix the landing gear tube, telescope a length of the next size up tubing over the 5/53" tubing you used for the gear joint. I think that would be 3/16"??That hold up very well, no need to solder them, just cut the lengths carefully. This doubles the wall thickness.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2018, 06:11:50 PM »
I got first couple short flights in a couple days ago. So far, I like the power setup. I found I had a bit of a warp or mid-aligned flaps as it was carrying the out board wing a couple inches high upright and low inverted. Seems like a bit more line tension would be desirable. Controls were really touchy. Couldn’t hold a decent level lap. CG was about 3/8” forward of the spar. It also wanted to tighten up maneuvers on me.
I completely missed putting in a hard point for the top end of the landing gear. I put in a brass tube but that wasn’t enough for flying off of grass. I’ll have to open up a hole to epoxy in a 1/2” dowel and put a new brass tube in.
It has potential once I get several things straightened out. The plane definitely has the capability even if I don’t!

Matt

Matt,

As suggested, straighten out the wings/flaps first before worrying about line tension especially in maneuvers.  A high outboard wing is directing the lift of the wing toward you when upright and will reduce the natural tension developed by 2.5 pounds of tethered mass in motion.  The loss of tension will be magnified during inside maneuvers.

Before you add nose weight...

First observe the glide after the engine quits.  Only if it gets "floaty" and hard to land where you want to touch down should the think first of moving the CG forward.  If the glide is solid and controllable to a decent landing consider first narrowing the line spacing on your adjustable handle until the rate of turn is comfortable.  For decades the standard advice in construction articles in the modeling press was to adjust response rate by adding or subtracting weight from one end or the other.  Taken by itself that is just plain bad advice.

Today's adjustable control systems allow us to optimize where we balance the airplane so it is most predictably responsive and then narrow or increase the spacing at the handle to make the pilot happy during the initial trimming flights.  The more forward of the ideal location the CG the more difficult will it be to fly well in windy conditions.

Ted

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2018, 08:37:05 PM »
Matt,

As suggested, straighten out the wings/flaps first before worrying about line tension especially in maneuvers.  A high outboard wing is directing the lift of the wing toward you when upright and will reduce the natural tension developed by 2.5 pounds of tethered mass in motion.  The loss of tension will be magnified during inside maneuvers.

    Just to add to the thought,  the change in line tension from rolling, deltaF = 2.5tan(phi) in level flight,  where phi = roll angle. The wing will have to develop more than 2.5 lb of lift relative to the Y axis of the airplane, specifically, 2.5/cos(phi), the sine component of that is what is vectored towards the pilot (and reduces the line tension), and sin(phi)/cos(phi) = tan(phi). For a 5 degree roll angle on a 2.5 lb airplane, it will be about .22 lb less out of a ~ 7.6 lb line tension, so maybe 7.4-ish lb. 5 degrees is a little more than one wing thickness on a Twister, well within reason for a moderate-sized warp.

   It's essentially the same effect that causes the G load to increase in a banked turn without altitude loss.

   Of course it gets much worse as you maneuver, because instead of requiring a 1G vertical load, you require a 10-15G, and, the bank angle increases (since the line tension is what is keeping it from banking further, and as you both increase the normal lift and increase the angle, the line tension goes down).

      Brett

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2018, 08:42:01 PM »
So what should the chord of the elevator measure?

Thanks,
Motorman :)

Here's the measurements I get from the plans, measured to the nearest -'ish
21" overall width.

Stock F-Twister Stab =3" Root, 2.25" Tip (including vertical grain tip)
Stock F-Twister Elevator = 3" Root, 2-3/16 tip

2018 F-Twister Stab = 3.5" Root, 2.75" Tip (including vertical grain tip)
2018 F-Twister Elevator = 2.5" root, 1-11/16" tip

It should be obvious, but if you change the stab/elevator ratio and you want the TVC and actual tail moment arm to remain in the exact same place as the previous F-Twister, (approx 16" hinge to hinge measurement), you would also need to locate the new hinge to hinge measurement back a corresponding "half inch or so,"  for the 2018 update (to approx~16.5").

Edit: (Though on a second glance of the plans it looks like the stock hinge to hinge measurement as drawn, is somewhere around 15.75".  On these Bob Kruger (RIP) F-Twister plans, the side view and top view h-h dimensions do not match exactly, so pick a hinge to hinge number that gives you fulfillment and inner peace.  Whichever dimension you build it to....15.75 to 16.25, or 16" to 16.5", Who's on first, What's on second...oh never mind...., just don't move the entire stab forward to keep the hinge to hinge measurement per the plans.  Add 1/2" balsa to the aft end of the fuselage for the extra 1/2 inch that you have now added to the stab and correspondingly removed from the elevator.  See animation:
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 03:00:24 AM by Brent Williams »
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2018, 10:41:15 PM »
Thanks Brett and Brent!

Although I don't pretend to grasp the technical math, I appreciate Brett's explanation of such stuff involved in the effect of banked flight on line tension.  Rocket science at its best, no doubt.

Thanks to Brent for actually getting the data on my suggested revision of the F'ized stab/elevator.  I had promised myself to climb on the ladder once again to measure the stab/elevator dimensions on the Umland kit but he's saved me the effort and redrawn the surfaces in their suggested altered state accurately. 

Again, one of the great myths of mid stunt-era thinking is that we needed to make the "flippers" bigger than the non "flipper parts" so they could flip our stunters quicker.  The reality is that the biggest thing bigger flippers do is increase the line tension necessary to deflect them to the necessary angle and the net result, increasing the lift of the attached combination of fixed and flipper isn't all that much different but our ability to drive them to the necessary angle to provide the lift necessary was inhibited by the degree to which the fixed portion was exceeded by the flipping portion.

Thanks to both of them.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 11:02:03 PM »
Although I don't pretend to grasp the technical math, I appreciate Brett's explanation of such stuff involved in the effect of banked flight on line tension.  Rocket science at its best, no doubt.

   You already knew that one, you have to pull up elevator on you 747 in a banked turn to remain level due to the 1/cos(phi) part.

      Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 01:40:56 AM »
   You already knew that one, you have to pull up elevator on you 747 in a banked turn to remain level due to the 1/cos(phi) part.

My people do that for him.  Ted can concern himself with more important things.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2018, 05:02:41 PM »
   You already knew that one, you have to pull up elevator on you 747 in a banked turn to remain level due to the 1/cos(phi) part.

      Brett

I'd run right out and check to be sure but they took all my 747s away from me.  And 757s...and 767s...and 727s, and.....

Damn,  I thought sure there was still a DC-6 around here someplace...but, noooooooooo.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2018, 05:21:56 PM »
Here's the measurements I get from the plans, measured to the nearest -'ish
21" overall width.

Stock F-Twister Stab =3" Root, 2.25" Tip (including vertical grain tip)
Stock F-Twister Elevator = 3" Root, 2-3/16 tip

2018 F-Twister Stab = 3.5" Root, 2.75" Tip (including vertical grain tip)
2018 F-Twister Elevator = 2.5" root, 1-11/16" tip

It should be obvious, but if you change the stab/elevator ratio and you want the TVC and actual tail moment arm to remain in the exact same place as the previous F-Twister, (approx 16" hinge to hinge measurement), you would also need to locate the new hinge to hinge measurement back a corresponding "half inch or so,"  for the 2018 update (to approx~16.5").

Edit: (Though on a second glance of the plans it looks like the stock hinge to hinge measurement as drawn, is somewhere around 15.75".  On these Bob Kruger (RIP) F-Twister plans, the side view and top view h-h dimensions do not match exactly, so pick a hinge to hinge number that gives you fulfillment and inner peace.  Whichever dimension you build it to....15.75 to 16.25, or 16" to 16.5", Who's on first, What's on second...oh never mind...., just don't move the entire stab forward to keep the hinge to hinge measurement per the plans.  Add 1/2" balsa to the aft end of the fuselage for the extra 1/2 inch that you have now added to the stab and correspondingly removed from the elevator.  See animation:


Thanks Brent.  Good catch on the need to extend the aft end of the fuse in order to keep the stab/elevator in the same location.  Love your magic motion pick of the move from the side view!

Ted

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2018, 06:51:41 PM »
I'd run right out and check to be sure but they took all my 747s away from me.  And 757s...and 767s...and 727s, and.....

Damn,  I thought sure there was still a DC-6 around here someplace...but, noooooooooo.

Ted

   Hey Ted;  You had prop liner time? I was born and raised under the approach to runway 24 at Lambert Field. ( I still live within smelling distance of the airport. If the wind is right, I can smell jet fuel at my house and they are departing west to east.) It was the only instrument runway at Lambert for along time because it allowed the longest gradual glide path at that time ( or so I was told at that time). Anyway, I can still hear the Connies, DC-6's and DC-7's landing and taking off over my house and shaking the windows! They were less than 1000' AGL at that point and I think made way more noise than any jet ever did, but I LOVED it! If they were landing, we used to turn off the living room lights and open up the curtains of the big picture window and the landing lights used to illuminate the whole room for a few seconds, and the RF from the plug wires used to really screw up TV reception for 5 seconds or so (no cable in those days!!!) I would kill to go back in time for one day just to relive that again!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2018, 10:49:20 PM »
   Hey Ted;  You had prop liner time? I was born and raised under the approach to runway 24 at Lambert Field. ( I still live within smelling distance of the airport. If the wind is right, I can smell jet fuel at my house and they are departing west to east.) It was the only instrument runway at Lambert for along time because it allowed the longest gradual glide path at that time ( or so I was told at that time). Anyway, I can still hear the Connies, DC-6's and DC-7's landing and taking off over my house and shaking the windows! They were less than 1000' AGL at that point and I think made way more noise than any jet ever did, but I LOVED it! If they were landing, we used to turn off the living room lights and open up the curtains of the big picture window and the landing lights used to illuminate the whole room for a few seconds, and the RF from the plug wires used to really screw up TV reception for 5 seconds or so (no cable in those days!!!) I would kill to go back in time for one day just to relive that again!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

HI Dan,

Yeah, I had prop time twice during my early couple of years or so at UAL.  Had basic First Officer training in DC-7s and first flew the line as a Second Officer (Flight Engineer) on DC-6s.  The -7s had been retired except for trainers when I started training with United in late 1964 but the DC-6s continued to fly along with Convair 340s with United for several years into my career.  The Convair was my first "front row" seat as a co-pilot. 

My first ever flight in an airliner cockpit was in a Lockheed Constellation when I was just a kid.  A good friend of my father's was a Captain for...IIRC...PNA and was flying a maintenance ferry flight between Boeing Field (KBFI) and Seattle Tacoma (KSEA) and had called my dad to see if he wanted to tag along.  Dad grabbed my big brother Gary and I and we huddled in the cockpit for the short night flight with the three man flight crew and, at least in part, it was that experience that sort of hooked me into the idea that sitting up there wouldn't be a bad way to spend a career.

Only flew into Lambert Field a handful of times and it was either as a First Officer on B-707-720s or DC-8s.  Can't remember which for sure.  What I do more or less recall was finding the hobby shop, the name of which I've forgotten after sharing a bottle of decent Chardonnay with Shareen, where one of the original Tucker Specials was still hanging on the wall.  Bet you can jog my memory on that one.  One of my favorite toy airplane memories was meeting and competing with the St Louis Tucker Special gang at the 1959 Nats in Los Alimitos NAS in LA.  Navy Barracks and the whole nine yards of a Navy Nats experience!

Shucks, I might very well have "flashed" the McEntee clan a time or two while you were adjusting your TV antenna!

Good memories, Dan.  You kept me up for an extra half hour after watching the Warriors whup Houston tonight!

Ted

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fancherized Twister Redux
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2018, 06:13:16 AM »
   Well sorry for robbing you of some beauty sleep! I went to bed as soon as I typed that and just leaving for work. The hobby shop you visited was Schaefer's at Virginia Ave and Meremac in the South St. Louis Scrubby Dutch neighborhood. My Mom was born and raised right down the street from there. Art Schaefer, Bob Tucker, Gary Zeller and Ron O'Toole were the members of that gang, and the St. Louis Yellow Jackets model club. That location is closed but there is another near Buder Park if you are ever in town, and that Tucker Special and Bob Kostecky's Formula S are still hanging on the wall along with some other vintage models and kits.
  Off to work,
   Dan
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)


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