stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Steve Helmick on February 27, 2013, 01:03:54 AM
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This may be of interest to some. I copied and pasted it from the SCATeN, electronic newsletter of the Southern California Aero Team. I hope BP meds are not among the banned substances. :-\ Steve
FAI, CIAM, WADA and drug testing.
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There has been some comment on facebook and other places based on the CIAM
Bureau minutes just recently published on the FAI web site. ( go to
http://www.fai.org/ciam-documents and scroll down and expand to find
meetings/ 2012/December Bureau/minutes if you want to read the entire
minutes) As a results of this I had a discussion with Ian Kaynes who
offered to write the following piece. In Ian's article he gives web
references. I would strongly recommend that you follow these references
and understand you responsibilities and what substances are banned
particularily if you going to up coming World and Continental Championship.
This is a change from past practices. A thank you to Ian for writing the
piece.
Comment from Ian Kaynes:
There has been some discussion about the FAI restrictions on drugs
following an item in the minutes of the CIAM Bureau meeting. It is probably
worthwhile if I give a summary of the current position.
The FAI Sporting Code General Section covers all airsports and defines the
doping rules for all participants in any FAI airsport. The General Section
can be downloaded from the FAI website at http://www.fai.org/fai-documents
Section 3.11 defines the responsibilities of all competitors and in
particular this includes 3.11.2 which covers doping, alcohol, illness and
injury. The General Section gives a summary of requirements on competitors
and more details are given from the FAI web site anti-doping link
http://www.fai.org/cimp-projects/cimp-fai-anti-doping-programme In
particular this site includes a link to the WADA prohibited substances and
to details of the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) certificate which is
necessary if you have to take any of these prohibited substances for
medical reasons.
The basic FAI aim is that there should be no doping in airsports. All
holders of an FAI Licence shall be subject to in-competition testing by the
FAI, the flyer’s National Airsport Body, or another anti-doping body
responsible for testing at a competition. In addition there is a Registered
Testing Pool (RTP) of flyers who are required to provide whereabouts
information so that random testing can be conducted between competitions.
In competition testing took place for the first time at the 2012 F3F World
Championships (Radio Slope Soarers) in Germany. The first and third placed
competitors were tested after their final flights.
CIAM has been required to define an RTP of 4 competitors. The CIAM Bureau
meeting in December 2012 defined the RTP based on random selection from
the top 5% of people at all World Championships in a year. This amounted to
24 flyers. 8 were selected at random from these and then a second random
selection was made to choose the final 4 for the RTP – which happened to be
one control line flyer and three radio flyers.
Each Championship bulletin now includes a reminder of the doping
requirements. Check the WADA list of substances and obtain a TUE if you
need to. And also, note that for FAI airsports the list of banned
substances includes alcohol.
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I glanced at the banned list and you'd need a pharmacist to figure it out but seems us over-50 crowd might need waivers for our regular old man prescriptions. I also see insulin on the list which leads me to think diabetics would be out of luck.
Dave
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No doping! Next they will say no "artifical / composite limbs / appendages" and all FAI C/L activity will stop.
Just because the plane is an "Appendage " to our body, it is fastened onto our arm by tethers and cables for control- just like a robotic hand. And if they allow us to compete with these appendages- we might start shooting our wives,girlfriends, or both!!!! ( tounge in cheek reference to - Blade Runner!)
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Oy vey. The Postal Service cancels Saturday delivery to afford Jive Combat Team sponsorship and now this.
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The WADA list is very inclusive and obstructive.
Beta-2 agonists are commonly used for asthma.
Many other common drugs are excluded.
High altitude training(which increases red blood cells) is an artificial way of enhancing perfomance. Presumably that includes people living at high altitudes.
Glucocorticosterioids- asthma, allergies, inflammation, immune diseases.
Alcohol- small amounts, such as a glass of wine, improves performance where reflexes or over-reactive reflexes are important- anything with muscle coordination- archery, riflery, automobile, etc.
Basically, if you take any medicines other than aspirin or Tylenol beware.
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Oy vey. The Postal Service cancels Saturday delivery to afford Jive Combat Team sponsorship and now this.
How did the famous JCT after Oscars party go?
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The WADA list is very inclusive and obstructive.
Beta-2 agonists are commonly used for asthma.
Many other common drugs are excluded.
High altitude training(which increases red blood cells) is an artificial way of enhancing perfomance. Presumably that includes people living at high altitudes.
Glucocorticosterioids- asthma, allergies, inflammation, immune diseases.
Alcohol- small amounts, such as a glass of wine, improves performance where reflexes or over-reactive reflexes are important- anything with muscle coordination- archery, riflery, automobile, etc.
Basically, if you take any medicines other than aspirin or Tylenol beware.
So, they expect someone who only wants to fly their little toy airplanes to submit to drug tests in third-world backwaters (where the organizers can't even set up to adjacent circles without causing a mid-air), and if they get a false positive or a manipulated sample, no recourse. And in my case, likely loss of security clearance, loss of employment, and loss of pension? All to satisfy some lunatics who equate, bizarrely, that flying our little toy airplanes are the equivalent of the Olympics.
This is why you don't want the FAI within 3000 miles of *our rules*.
Brett
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So, they expect someone who only wants to fly their little toy airplanes to submit to drug tests in third-world backwaters (where the organizers can't even set up to adjacent circles without causing a mid-air), and if they get a false positive or a manipulated sample, no recourse. And in my case, likely loss of security clearance, loss of employment, and loss of pension? All to satisfy some lunatics who equate, bizarrely, that flying our little toy airplanes are the equivalent of the Olympics.
This is why you don't want the FAI within 3000 miles of *our rules*.
Brett
er... 5000 miles :-)
Randy
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er... 5000 miles :-)
Need to check and see if peach cobbler from the Sunshine is on the list.
Brett
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Look out, they will be testing Paul for steroids. Sheesh, I can't imagine that anyone would want to go through that nonsense to flying in a contest. Even if it is the World Champs.
Starting to be happy I only fly local contests.
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Who do we have to thank for that? Lance Armstrong rides bikes... y1
Marcus
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Who do we have to thank for that? Lance Armstrong rides bikes... y1
Marcus
That would be the FAI
Randy
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This is long overdue.
The extreme longevity of several F2 World Champions has smelled funny to me for decades.
In addition to drugs, they need to look for Dorian Gray portraits.
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er... 5000 miles :-)
Randy
Well...if we could lure them to within about 2000 miles then they would be in about 14,000 feet of water...might be a good place to put them. LL~ LL~ LL~
Randy C.
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This proposal by the FAI is the SECOND most absurd thing I've ever seen. ???
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This proposal by the FAI is the SECOND most absurd thing I've ever seen. ???
It boils down to entrusting your entire personal reputation and possibly your livelihood to the Keystone Kops. Pass.
Brett
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This proposal by the FAI is the SECOND most absurd thing I've ever seen. ???
Steroids big muscles and lots of extra red blood cells is the answer to winning Stunt!
Gee...I never would have thought of that. n~ ~^ HB~>
Randy C.
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Steroids big muscles and lots of extra red blood cells is the answer to winning Stunt!
Gee...I never would have thought of that. n~ ~^ HB~>
Randy C.
Thats the other part of the stupidity. Most of what are considered performance-enhancing drugs in sports are either useless or counter-productive in stunt. The *very last thing* you want is to get all hyped up. Even a Diet Coke before the first flight has noticeable effects on me.
I use two drugs regularly - Extra Strength Excedrin and Famotadine (for heartburn). I never touch any intoxicating substances, maybe two glasses of wine in the last 50+ years, and some champagne for 10 minutes in 2006. But no way am I trusting the guys who invent "spinner radius" rules on the spot and can't set up two stunt circles far enough apart to avoid collisions to determine that.
Brett
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It boils down to entrusting your entire personal reputation and possibly your livelihood to the Keystone Kops. Pass.
Brett
Hey Brett having spent 40 years in the Aerospace community and still doing some occasional work for them, I understand your position.
Maybe this whole thing is just a ruse to eliminate as much competition as possible for the Europeans...I would put nothing beyond the FAI.
Randy C.
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. . . Most of what are considered performance-enhancing drugs in sports are either useless or counter-productive in stunt . . .
Brett
Roger that. Imagine entering the Square Eights or Hourglass while "juiced". Those people can't be serious!
Again: the SECOND dumbest thing I've ever seen on this forum.
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By the way, did anyone see the proposal to introduce this new rule? Did anyone provide feedback on this proposal? Or was it just someone at a paid resort vacation in Switzerland who merely decreed it?
I mean, surely it can't be that this was passed by a bunch of people not involved in modeling on their own volition, right?[/rhetorical]
Brett
p.s.
I sent a message to Bill Lee, our CIAM representative, for clarification. If this is real, I suspect virtually no one would participate in FAI modeling because the risk vs reward is not worth it.
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I'm here, Brett, just watching the discussion for the time-being. Will try and write something sensible when my irritation dies down.
Bill
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The FAI is just making a statement that their sport is drug free. Remember, modeling is just one small section of an organization that mainly regulates full size man-carrying aircraft. Obviously, a pilot on drugs can do A LOT of damage.
They couldn't hardly say, "The FAI is drug free, except for the F2 category."
This does not scare me in the least. I hope the vast majority of my fellow F2 competitors are in the same boat.
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The FAI is just making a statement that their sport is drug free. Remember, modeling is just one small section of an organization that mainly regulates full size man-carrying aircraft. Obviously, a pilot on drugs can do A LOT of damage.
They couldn't hardly say, "The FAI is drug free, except for the F2 category."
This does not scare me in the least. I hope the vast majority of my fellow F2 competitors are in the same boat.
Anybody seen "Flight?"
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I remember the ollympian years ago was accused of using drugs because of the seseme seeds on the hamburger bun.
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er... 5000 miles :-)
Randy
You got that right Brett. Try 11,000 miles.
I don't mind the F2D rules particularly. It would be interesting to sanction an AMA contest running the F2D events and promote it as a Contest of the Americas(North and South).
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I'm high, all right, but not on false drugs. I'm high on the real thing: powerful gasoline, a clean windshield, and a shoeshine.
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The FAI is just making a statement that their sport is drug free. Remember, modeling is just one small section of an organization that mainly regulates full size man-carrying aircraft. Obviously, a pilot on drugs can do A LOT of damage.
They couldn't hardly say, "The FAI is drug free, except for the F2 category."
This does not scare me in the least. I hope the vast majority of my fellow F2 competitors are in the same boat.
One false positive by whatever "National Anti-Doping Agency" happens to be involved = working at McDonalds until I die. Just to fly in a model airplane contest.
Brett
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There's been more discussion of this topic on SCATen. Pretty much the same as here, but I could probably pull a few strings (pun intended) and get you setup with a free prescription...er, I mean subscription...to the newsletter. The English CIAM FF Rep. posted (it's a compilation of emails to a central editor) that the topic has officially been under discussion for the past year. Clearly, all events are not equally affected or unaffected by suitable chemical influences. Would an oxygen booster bottle and injector hose really be all that big a deal? ??? Steve
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There's been more discussion of this topic on SCATen. Pretty much the same as here, but I could probably pull a few strings (pun intended) and get you setup with a free prescription...er, I mean subscription...to the newsletter. The English CIAM FF Rep. posted (it's a compilation of emails to a central editor) that the topic has officially been under discussion for the past year. Clearly, all events are not equally affected or unaffected by suitable chemical influences. Would an oxygen booster bottle and injector hose really be all that big a deal? ??? Steve
Bill in researching this now, so wait for him for any additional clarification.
Brett
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This is the e-mail I sent to a number of concerned folks. I am sure there will be more to come. I have asked via a cc of the e-mail listed below that AMA become the point for this issue since they undoubtedly have World Champs teams that will be involved soon. We in CL have a bit of breathing room since our first involvement (at least U.S. people) will be in 2014.
Since I wrote that letter I have done a bit more investigation and I have included links below where pertinent documents can be found.
Bill
I have had some communication with Jo Halman, Technical Secretary of the CIAM Bureau, regarding this issue. I will quote (most) of her response below. First, though, a few words about what's happened in past years.
As you know, I have been involved in Team Management for the F2 Team since 1980. In that time frame, I have either been a team member (F2C and F2d), team manager, assistant team manager, or just a supporter. I have been at every F2 World Champs since 1980 except 1982 and 2008. I was the F2 World Champs organizer in 2004 here in the United States. After the 2002 World Champs in Germany, I was out of active team management until 2010 when I managed the team in Hungary, and again in 2012 in Bulgaria.
When I returned to managing the team in 2010, I first encountered the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) involvement of the FAI (and, hence, the CIAM). It may have been there earlier but since I was not involved from 2002-2010, I don't know. I do NOT recall this being an issue in 2004 when I organized the WCHs in Muncie. I looked into this extensively and developed a document (see below) that if needed I intended to send to the team. But I first bounced this off of Dave Brown and Greg Hahn, and Dave brown's response was
Yes, to be 100% certain that one will not be disqualified for WADA infractions, one must go through all of these hoops, but based upon the fact that there has NEVER been a drug test at ANY FAI aeromodeling event, and such testing would only happen if the government of the host country insists on it, AND provides such testing by IT'S "experts", I would say the chances of drug testing happening at any particular WC's is somewhat akin to there being a statistical tie for the first 3 places in all of the eventsin that WC's!!!
Consequently, I chose to not bother the team with this stuff.
However, I, personally, did go through getting a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" (TUE), which everyone will need just to ward off any concerns over drugs that they ARE taking. The process for this was clumsy, involving my personal Dr, him filling out a bunch of paperwork, getting the papers back, and then getting this all off to the FAI in time for them to process it, etc. Given Dave Brown's guidance, I eventually just blew the whole thin off and never submitted the paperwork to the FAI.
Well, now, the FAI is getting serious about conforming with the WADA requirements, and there HAS been drug testing as we saw mentioned in the Bureau minutes. Hence, the CIAM (i.e., the Bureau) has responded as you saw in the minutes from their December meeting. When questioned about this, Jo responded as follows:
ME: Jo, what's going on? I have several folks who are quite unhappy and concerned that their very future might lie in the hands of organizers of World Championships over this drug testing stuff. And given the track-record of at least the last couple of WCHs where the contest organization has been pretty minimal, my folks are very reluctant to trust their livelihood, their pensions, their professional careers, to the organizers.
Jo: Any drug testing at a Champs is done by that country's National Anti-Doping Agency. It has nothing to do with the organisers or even the FAI Jury. The NADA makes all the arrangements and pays the costs related to the testing. At the 2012 F3F champs, the NADA used a local hotel for testing. The fliers were under escort from the moment they finished flying until the testing was finished.
I don't think any of your fliers should worry about this but, of course, that's only my opinion.
Questions that this raises for me: How trust-worthy is the NADA that would be involved?. I don't even know who in the U.S. that I would contact to do this. Are the smaller, near-third-world countries capable of doing this without failure?
For the future: it is quite apparent to me that any and all teams sent by and sponsored by AMA need to have this issue firmly in hand, and it also seems to me that AMA MUST take the lead for the teams! Obviously this only pertains to Continental Championships (where we are NOT involved) and World Championships. So we do have a bit of breathing room right now. But undoubtedly there are other U.S. teams that will be caught up in this very soon, this year. I do not know what AMA is doing, I haven't asked although I will (Greg and Bob Brown are cc'ed this e-mail).
I hope this helps a bit. I have attached documents that I was prepared to send out in 2010 but which were never sent. I am not sure their contents are completely accurate at his time, but they should be close. First is an e-mail I sent to Dave Brown and Greg Hahn, and then attached are three other, potentially out-of-date(see links below), documents that came off the FAI website in 2010.
Regards,
Bill
Links:
FAI Page for WADA information newsletters (http://www.fai.org/news/36863-anti-doping-agreement-with-sportaccord-signed). I suggest you read the series of documents on this page for some background on the FAI effort to comply with the WADA dictate.
Anti-Doping and ME (http:///www.fai.org/component/phocadownload/category/511-anti-doping?download=2256:anti-doping-and-me). A feel-good document ???
FAI page for all the WADA Rules (http://www.fai.org/cimp-projects/cimp-fai-anti-doping-programme). This page contains all of the documents you should read.
Edit to add: I realize I failed to include the document I prepared in 2010 but which was never used. The documents referenced in it are from the web pages listed just above. Here it is:
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Hello, all;
I have mentioned that the 2010 F2 World Championships organizers have indicated they will be complying with the FAI requirements that all of the competitors and Team Managers adhere to the World Anti-Doping Agency(WADA) standards. This whole requirement is aimed primarily at athletes and is intended to eliminate drug-enhanced performance. And it all seems a bit silly for model airplane competitors. But it IS the FAI rule and we must conform. All team members must read and follow the contents of this note as well as any alternate team members who MAY become part of the team.
The WADA has a long list of banned drugs. Some of them are routinely taken by model airplane competitors since we tend to be older and use drugs by our Doctor's orders. The WADA allows for this situation and has procedures for obtaining a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" (TUE).
In order to comply with these rules, there are some things that you MUST DO, and do SOON!
Attached are some PDF documents.
The first is a document from the FAI that emphasizes their position on the WADA requirements. You should look this document over for your information.
The second is the WADA document that is the 2010 Prohibited List. This document contains all of the currently prohibited drugs as well as prohibited procedures. You will need a PRINTED copy of this document.
The third document is the FAI's Therapeutic Use Exemption form. You will also need a printed copy of this document.
Now, here's what you have to do.
1) Make an appointment with your primary care physician, the Doctor who you see regularly and who knows of and prescribes the medications you are taking.
2) Take the printed documents mentioned above to him and have him fill out the TUE form. Make sure that he signs the form.
3) On the TUE form you will see instruction to send this form to the FAI. DO NOT SEND IT TO THE AMA NOR TO TEAM MANAGEMENT! The TUE is a strictly confidential form that is NOT intended for anyone other than yo and your Doctor, and for the appropriate commission at the FAI headquarters.
Please do this NOW! The TUE must be in the FAI's hands at least 21 days before you compete.
Regards,
Bill Lee
Team Manager
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So, they expect someone who only wants to fly their little toy airplanes to submit to drug tests in third-world backwaters (where the organizers can't even set up to adjacent circles without causing a mid-air), and if they get a false positive or a manipulated sample, no recourse. And in my case, likely loss of security clearance, loss of employment, and loss of pension? All to satisfy some lunatics who equate, bizarrely, that flying our little toy airplanes are the equivalent of the Olympics.
This is why you don't want the FAI within 3000 miles of *our rules*.
Brett
NASA doesn't have a random drug / alcohol testing program?
I've been subject to both by the FAA for the last 30+ yrs.
You pretty much have 1/2 hr to report to the Med. dept. and pee in a cup or blow in a Breathalyzer or your walked out.
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NASA doesn't have a random drug / alcohol testing program?
I've been subject to both by the FAA for the last 30+ yrs.
You pretty much have 1/2 hr to report to the Med. dept. and pee in a cup or blow in a Breathalyzer or your walked out.
I don't work for NASA.
Brett
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In all my job history, I never was required to take a pee test, started in 1965 and ending in 2011. The last place (I worked there about 12 years) was just too friggin' cheap. LL~ Steve
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After 34 years with the phone company, I took the retirement. Loafed around a little and finally decided I needed something to get me back on a schedule. Applied at the Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market. Had to go take blood and urine tests before I could go to work for them. Left them and went to work for Securitas and no blood or urine tests.
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After 34 years with the phone company, I took the retirement. Loafed around a little and finally decided I needed something to get me back on a schedule. Applied at the Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market. Had to go take blood and urine tests before I could go to work for them. Left them and went to work for Securitas and no blood or urine tests.
Having to do it for work purposes, in the US, with defined parameters and defined legal recourse is one thing. Doing it to fly in a model airplane contest in a foreign country is another thing entirely.
I haven't touched drugs and I tripled my lifetime alcohol consumption in 30 seconds on the L-pad in 2006. I am on no prescription drugs for anything. I took a Sudafed last night for a cold - will that trigger something? Heck if I know.
Please don't misunderstand the issue - it's not that anyone is particularly concerned with failing a legitimate test. What is entirely unacceptable is that you might get a false positive, have no recourse, and utterly destroy your future.
Brett
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Just one little drug story about why this is stupid. I've got something called essential tremor(meaning they don't know what causes it). Got a prescription for propanolol(a beta blocker). It controls the tremor so I can write my signiature legibly. I found out the hard way it really screws up your reflexes. A few summers ago I crashed two different airplanes on bottom outside corners. They seemed to sort of just fly themselves into the ground. It took a lot of thinking and reading the prescription fine print before I figured out the drug did it. Stopped taking it routinely and haven't had the problem since.
Until today. I took something called dicyclomine, a similar drug for spasms and cramps. I was test flying a combat ship and did exactly the same thing. The plane just sort of flew itself into the ground on a bottom outside corner. Fortunately no damage.
Something like 90% of the drugs on the list screw up your reflexes. The only one that has any sports use is propanolol. Professional golfers take it to calm down the "yips" when putting. Any kind of twitchiness when putting will screw it up completely, so the golfers are allowed to take it so as not to scatter putts all over the green.
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Until today. I took something called dicyclomine, a similar drug for spasms and cramps. I was test flying a combat ship and did exactly the same thing. The plane just sort of flew itself into the ground on a bottom outside corner. Fortunately no damage.
Veering a little OT, but I have found that even the "non-drowsy" cold medicine (the old style DayQuil, original Sudafed. etc) indeed doesn't make you drowsy. I got a cold the morning we left for the 2001 team trials, and eventually took some Sudafed. I can confirm that I was fully awake for the blown maneuvers, near-crashes, and generally bad performance. It completely hosed my fine motor control on Friday, it got a little better on Saturday, and it was near normal on Sunday.
Brett
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Whose brilliant idea was THIS?
Apparently no one who ever attempted to fly a Stunt pattern - which is difficult enough while stone-cold sober.
These people need a reality check.
Should this goofy thing pass, NOW who wants to try for a place on their National team?
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Whose brilliant idea was THIS?
Apparently no one who ever attempted to fly a Stunt pattern - which is difficult enough while stone-cold sober.
These people need a reality check.
Should this goofy thing pass, NOW who wants to try for a place on their National team?
It's not a proposal, it's already in effect and people in modeling have been tested. As far as anyone can tell, there was no proposal, it just appeared. It apparently applies to anyone holding an FAI sporting license and a number of people are randomly chosen for testing *between competitions* and those people *are supposed to tell the FAI or their urine-obsessed cohorts where you are going to be at all times so they can find you and test you at their leisure*. Read Bill's message above carefully.
This makes getting an FAI sporting license a non-starter as far as most people with jobs of any responsibility are concerned, so while people may still show up at the TT, I can't see many people volunteering to be monitored by these yo-yo and risking everything. I'm out, for certain, unless this is reversed and *made very clear to every National Aero Club* so that it can't be re-invented on the spot (like the 1/4" spinner radius "rule").
I had assumed this was all some sort of absurd misunderstanding, but apparently not.
Brett
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I have not had anything to drink or any type of drugs in 23 years. However if you eat a Hamburger with poppy seeds before the test you will show positive for opiates. If your going to take a test like this make sure you study before so you don't have a false positive and you get a positive-positive LL~
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I wonder what size gratuity it takes to pass the test.
Too bad that some of us work(ed) for companies that judge us for the drugs we take, rather than the work we do.
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The following has been sent to members of the FAI CIAM Bureau. (Not all: those where an e-mail address could be found.)
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Subject: WADA and Model Aviation
Hello;
I am quite concerned about the ultimate results of the recent decision by the CIAM Bureau to fully implement the WADA provisions. This decision has received wide-spread attention on many of the internet forums and the effect of this implementation is very damaging to our hobby/sport.
Simply stated:
Implementation of drug testing using the procedures described on the FAI web site will effectively end many countries' participation in Continental and World Championships.
Here are some comments that have been made which illustrate the problem:
"This would appear to be a show-stopper for me. Obviously I have never taken illegal or performance-enhancing drugs, nor any intoxicating substances aside from extremely rare alcoholic beverages (less than 8 ounces in my 51+years) so I am not concerned about my performance being enhanced or any legitimate drug testing. In fact, I am subject to drug testing at any time due to my governmental security standing. In that I have a clear process with clearly defined legal recourse.
But I would never subject myself to drug testing conducted by the FAI merely to participate in a model airplane contest. A false positive would absolutely destroy my life - loss of employment, loss of security clearance, loss of reputation, loss of pension, etc. And given that we are talking about the FAI, .... , I certainly would not trust them to have a legitimate testing regime, secure chain of custody, .... Or have a US-quality legal system by which I could clear my good name.
This is far too much to risk for a model airplane trophy. I wouldn't even do it for the AMA Nationals, where I generally trust the people who would be involved. I certainly wouldn't risk it for an FAI contest, and it's out of the question in some third-world country where they can't even set up two stunt circles without creating mid-air collision."
" If this policy is fully implemented, I cannot risk my civilian lively hood on the shoddy results of a poorly conceived testing protocol and procedures. This will be the end of my World Champ competitive career."
"it's a model airplane contest, for goodness sake! I certainly would never trust a national anti-doping agency (whatever that happens to be), it's perfectly clear that it isn't secure, if nothing else, note that the results for both Floyd Landis and Lance Armstrong were leaked. The fact that they were guilty hardly mitigates the security issues involved. Who in Bulgaria would I sue?"
"I trust my fellow modelers on every other rule, I see no reason that this needs to go beyond a attestation that you aren't using drugs. Law enforcement is a separate matter, of course."
Gentlemen and lady, it is time for the CIAM Bureau to get model aviation out of the drug testing business! It simply isn't necessary for the kind of activities we perform! I implore you to tell the FAI "No, it's just not pertinent to what we do!". To do otherwise will eventually destroy model aviation for international events.
Regards,
Bill Lee
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The following has been sent to members of the FAI CIAM Bureau. (Not all: those where an e-mail address could be found.)
Thanks, Bill. We'll see if this accomplishes anything but it's a worthy effort.
Brett
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Definitely, recent competitors on the L-pad have looked bulked up. I was hoping we could avoid a scandal. The prospect of a congressional inquiry makes me very sad.
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It's the mush at the Twelfth Street. That's what's causing the bulk.
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Do you think the AMA will pony up to equip the team with Whizzinators?
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But seriously, folks, suppose you win the next CL world champs, take the test, and refuse to pay the bribe. "Big deal", you say. "I don't work for a company getting government money and all my peers know who really won." It could get worse. Poland, since it became a "free" country, will now jail you for drug possession: http://www.isp.org.pl/uploads/analyses/1718781744.pdf
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I just got another thought: good thing the FAI dropped the builder-of-the-model rule. If they still had BOM, we'd be subject to monitoring while we build.
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I received the following from Antonis Papadopoulos, President of the CIAM (the aeromodelling commission of the FAI) in my response to the e-mail (above) I sent to him and several others of the CIAM Bureau.
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Dear Mr. Lee,
I would like to thank you for your email, since it will give me the opportunity to clarify certain issues.
First, it was not CIAM, but entire FAI which implemented the WADA provisions, for all airsports and not solely for aero or space
modeling. And why FAI implemented such rules?
FAI is an international sporting federation, with members from all over the world. Every year the annual General Conference accepts by voting, proposals from the Executive Board or from the members, regarding the future of Airsports.
Couple of years ago, FAI was recognized by International Olympic Committee (IOC), and because of that, many country-members are benefiting from that. Not only that, but FAI is now member of Sport Accord, which gives the chance even to aeromodellers, to participate to World Games (an event similar to Olympic Games but for sport not yet part of the summer or winter Olympic Games program). In order to be able to do so, FAI and all the rest of the sporting federations, recognized by IOC, need to fully implement the WADA rules and provisions.
All the above were not only FAI Executive Board proposals or decisions but also approved by the FAI General Conference, that is approved by the members. So how can CIAM be opposed to an FAI General Conference decision?
I can see a point with what you are mentioning about the possibilities to use prohibited drugs to increase your performance in aeromodelling, and it is disproportionate to compare aeromodelling with athletics or swimming or weight lift etc but, having been involved on the organization of Athens 2004 Olympic Games, I can tell you that there are doping methods for shooting or archery or even chess that can be used for aeromodelling too.
Please also consider the following. As competitors, we are accepting the current set of rules and we are checking our models, before the event, to verify whether they comply with the rules and not even that, we are also accepting that we can be checked even during the competition, for complying with the model specifications rules. And in cases where the officials are finding out that some rules were bended, then all of us, are not feeling the same, for the competitor or competitors who did so.
I am sure that we are all going to feel the same, if we discover that a modeler had used prohibited drugs on purpose, in order to improve his performance. Don’t you agree?
Regarding the comments you have seen on the internet about the standards and the quality of the doping control tests, I can tell you that the tests are not going to be conducted by FAI or CIAM or AMA but they are going to be conducted by certified doping control officers by WADA or National Anti-doping Agencies (like USADA) and the samples are going to be tested in WADA recognized labs. The procedure is going to be identical to the tests conducted during Olympic Games.
The procedure FAI is implementing right now, is because WADA, has not enough information about airsports. As soon as this information will be available and hopefully to prove that airsports are “clean” sports, then the doping control testing in airsports will be kept in low numbers.
Also I would like to let you know, that WADA rules are supra national rules, similar to UN rules or decisions.
I hope that I have clarified the current situation. I know that FAI is preparing educational material, which will assist all related parties to understand what we have to do and what we don’t and as long as we are “clean”, we don’t have to be afraid.
Please do not hesitate to contact me or Mrs Segolene Rouillon (FAI Anti-Doping Manager - antidoping@fai.org for any further questions or clarifications you might need.
Regards
Antonis Papadopoulos
CIAM President
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There are a whole wealth of points in this e-mail that should be answered, but I fear that any responses will be ignored. Bottom line as I see it is that joining the IOC was a money-based decision, and nothing that truly is oriented towards the needs of the modeling community will be important.
Is it time for an organization for international aeromodeling other than the FAI?
Bill
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Thanks for the update Bill.
I agree, looks like it was a money deal for some people, probably those who were doing the voting.
So, who wants to go to Poland now?
Derek
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Is it time for an organization for international aeromodeling other than the FAI?
Long past time, I would say.
Bottom line is the same, forget it, I am as clean as you can be in terms of drugs, but I am not risking it. On the other hand, it saves me a 6 day car trip every other year.
Brett
p.s. Here are a few gems of wisdom:
Please also consider the following. As competitors, we are accepting the current set of rules and we are checking our models, before the event, to verify whether they comply with the rules and not even that, we are also accepting that we can be checked even during the competition, for complying with the model specifications rules. And in cases where the officials are finding out that some rules were bended, then all of us, are not feeling the same, for the competitor or competitors who did so.
I am sure that we are all going to feel the same, if we discover that a modeler had used prohibited drugs on purpose, in order to improve his performance. Don’t you agree?
Well, no, I don't agree. First, I don't care if anyone tries to "cheat" on the technical requirements for the airplanes. First, there's no practical way to cheat, since you can build essentially anything you want in any manner you want, and in FAI, you can get someone else to build it for you. I accept the word of my competitors. Second, if someone wants to use some sort of drug to enhance their performance, let them go right ahead. If they are stupid enough to do drugs, they deserve the consequences, i.e. losing. In fact if they want to use steroids and andro, plus testosterone, in an injection right before the finals, I approve, they are suckers. If they take Phil C's anti-yips stuff, swell, I'll take you on clean and win anyway.
The real problem with FAI stunt it the amateur hour contest organization and the repeated proven cases of judge malfeasance. This does nothing to correct either one.
Regarding the comments you have seen on the internet about the standards and the quality of the doping control tests, I can tell you that the tests are not going to be conducted by FAI or CIAM or AMA but they are going to be conducted by certified doping control officers by WADA or National Anti-doping Agencies (like USADA) and the samples are going to be tested in WADA recognized labs. The procedure is going to be identical to the tests conducted during Olympic Games.
The procedure FAI is implementing right now, is because WADA, has not enough information about airsports. As soon as this information will be available and hopefully to prove that airsports are “clean” sports, then the doping control testing in airsports will be kept in low numbers.
Also I would like to let you know, that WADA rules are supra national rules, similar to UN rules or decisions.
Well, there you go, it's like the UN. Case closed.
Brett
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Well, were I an international competitor, I probably wouldn't be worried about it initially, but the problem comes it how detailed they get. In professional sports, it's gotten to the point were you can't take an asperin without permission from the drug testing guys. They test for so many things that it's easy to eat the wrong thing or take what you thought was some innocent over the counter medication or even something you have a prescription for and have it tagged as a PED.
Guy on the Seahawks this year got busted for PEDs. He had a prescription for methylphenidate from his personal physician (according to a local sports news report). It was posted with the NFL through the process you have to use for any prescription. He still got busted and had to have a hearing when it turned up in a blood test. He was ultimately exonerated, but it was quite a circus for a bit.
So I suppose it depends on how crazy they get. What is a prohibited drug? Steriods and Human Growth Hormone? OK, that's fine. But what about other stuff. What if you are taking Depakote for a seizure disorder? That's on the MLB and NFL list of prohibited drugs because of a side effect. What if you are taking fluticasone propionate for allergies? Another prohibited drug in pro sports because it has a steriod in it.
I'm with Brett, I guess it saves a trip.
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So I suppose it depends on how crazy they get. What is a prohibited drug? Steriods and Human Growth Hormone? OK, that's fine. But what about other stuff. What if you are taking Depakote for a seizure disorder? That's on the MLB and NFL list of prohibited drugs because of a side effect. What if you are taking fluticasone propionate for allergies? Another prohibited drug in pro sports because it has a steriod in it.
All that and more. Caffeine was on there for a while (not now) - have a cup of coffee at the Bulgarian Holiday Inn, work at McDonalds for the rest of your life.
But that's not the real issue. I assume that none of it is performance enhancing in stunt, and probably not in any other event so it's worthless at best, and counterproductive at worst. You can get a "Theraputic use exception" by submitting it to someone (Bill tried and and couldn't figure it out) and having them approve it - because they are also testing *team managers*!! A prescription from the doctor is not enough. Some mystery organization decides.
But the real problem is a *false positive* or a *manipulated sample*. The testing is done by the "National Anti-Doping Authority" which means local officials in whatever country it is. Who is going to risk absolutely everything on some foreign country's lab results- to fly in a (usually) poorly-run model airplane contest? What legal recourse do you have in US courts and with the US DOD, FAA, etc or other governmental agency if it comes up positive in Bulgaria? The answer is - none, you are screwed and no one will ever care why. You will be labelled a cheat and a dope user for the rest of your life.
Brett
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Exactly. I have a job were a positive test, regardless of the reason, would mean the end of my career. Period. Not worth it to me, that's certain.
But then, there was never a chance that I would be on the team, so it's a moot point for me. But I can certainly see why others would suddenly become uninterested in international competition.
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Exactly. I have a job were a positive test, regardless of the reason, would mean the end of my career. Period. Not worth it to me, that's certain.
But then, there was never a chance that I would be on the team, so it's a moot point for me. But I can certainly see why others would suddenly become uninterested in international competition.
Working for a small company I doubt if a positive result from another country would get me fired, if they were that worried about it they could give me one here in the states and clear up the whole mess. My big problem is the fact that a false positive could get your metal (assuming you won one, or the team one one) stripped and like Brett said you would be labled a cheat and a druggie for the rest of your days. Not to mention the money you would have wasted making the team and traveling to a world champs.
Derek
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Guys,
How is the AMA involved with the FAI? Since these drug rules are "over all" would any organization that is part of the core organization (FAI) be in any way required to implament them even though our event rules are different? Seems that this could get forced on us and be a requirement at other events. Where does it end?
I agree with Brett on this one as long as the person isn't impaired - who cares.
Best, DennisT
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Remember, these rules started with international sports, generally under the International Olympic Committee. One of the banned substances is supplemental oxygen.
When the FAI originally applied these rules to full size aviation, the prohibition on the use of supplemental oxygen was blindly carried forward.
For those of you that aren't full sized aircraft pilot, national aviation regulations REQUIRE the use of supplemental oxygen. The FAI's position immediately invalidated all aviation performances above the required oxygen use altitudes (in the USA these regulations start at 12,500 feet about sea level). There was a BIG OOPS recognition at the FAI. The use of supplemental oxygen has been approved for those categories of activities.
There is the precedence for exceptions to the usage/testing rules.
Dave Rolley
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I'm reading all this and really trying not to laugh. The only performance enhancement I can think of is a better engine, fuel, prop, wing design, etc. So just what drug could I personally take to get me into the top 5 at the NATS. Tylenol for my back ache? I don't need big muscles to handle the model due to rules that keep them from becoming that big. I'm too old for a growth hormone, I'm pretty much stuck at 5' 7" on a good day. No other growth is needed. (Wifes opinion and why I love her).
Isn't it bad enough the damn UN is trying to take over our country and now the FAI is going take over the AMA and us. Screw the FAI. '' S?P VD~ y1
It would be funny if it weren't taking something simple that a lot of people care about, and making it impossible.
By the way, the FAI is the self-appointed (near as I can tell) "world organization" for all airplane and space-related activities. This led to absurdities like the Apollo astronauts having to get an FAI Sporting License to get their altitude records (and other records made up for the event) "recognized" as world records. The FAI is a collection of "National Aero Clubs". The NAA, National Aeronautic Association, is the recognized "National Aero Club" for the US. This includes all aviation activities. There are clubs underneath that for various things. The largest single club, BY FAR, is the AMA. I don't have the numbers but at one time it was 2x or more the total of all the rest.
So, effectively, the AMA is far and away the largest block of members in the FAI. However, every teeny little country in the world including places where 2 guys fly airplanes and another likes to look at magazines gets the same representation as the US. I also suspect if you look at the dues money it would be disproportionately from the US - just like the UN. And just like the UN, the process for imposing things like this is opaque, not responsive to the members, and is controlled by a tiny few, mostly non-participants.
Stunt has been pretty good, you should see what goes on in the model rocket divisions, it's a joke, and it's controlled by a few Eastern European countries, blatantly, to make it very difficult for anyone else to have a chance. The US has done fairly well despite this, but most of the event rules are so completely rigged that the events are of no interest to the average modeler. As an example, how would you like to prepare for a WC but not be able to test-fly anything before you arrive, and buy your engine, sight unseen, at the event?
I see no indication that there is anything like drug testing required for any AMA contest, so the solution seems to be to forget about these stupid little FAI contests and just go to the NATs. Saves travel, saves having to build take-apart models, saves BOM. Most people weren't going to go to a WC anyway. I turned down a chance in 2009 due to other commitments and may have never gotten another chance anyway. But for those who wanted to do this, this is the end, I suspect.
And as far as I can tell, we no longer need the FAI for anything. I can set up a contest and call it whatever I chose, and if enough people come to it, it will be a de facto WC anyway. Recall that the only thing you get from any hobby contest is the recognition of your peers. That can be achieved WITHOUT the FAI.
Brett
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Please do not hesitate to contact me or Mrs Segolene Rouillon (FAI Anti-Doping Manager - antidoping@fai.org for any further questions or clarifications you might need.
What's Mr. Papadopoulos's address? Let's all tell him what we think. Better yet, how can he be replaced?
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What's Mr. Papadopoulos's address? Let's all tell him what we think. Better yet, how can he be replaced?
For the most part I think that would be shooting the messenger, although:
The procedure FAI is implementing right now, is because WADA, has not enough information about airsports. As soon as this information will be available and hopefully to prove that airsports are “clean” sports, then the doping control testing in airsports will be kept in low numbers.
Also I would like to let you know, that WADA rules are supra national rules, similar to UN rules or decisions.
this one is like poking a bear with a stick. to paraphrase "They don't know what they are doing, so hopefully the level of abuse will go down if we make them like us. Besides, it's the UN, what can be done? It's better than national. (throw up our hands, what can we do about it?"). Tell me about "supra-national" anything, and all I hear is "degraded to "world" standards". I would just about rather hear a lecture about the benefits of the metric system.
Brett
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An international competition inherently involves other countries. I don't think attacking the "supra-national" aspect makes much sense.
It appears that Mr. Papadopoulos, by using that term, was desperately looking for an argument in defense of something that we agree is inherently absurd. He shows no interest in advocating for our position. Hence my wondering why he is the CIAM president and how he can be replaced by someone familiar with and supportive of model aviation. It appears that the FAI has a dream of becoming Big Time, participating in the Olympics, and getting big TV money. Why can't we wait to be "clean" until this trickles down to F2?
I think our petitioning (maybe to Mr. Papadopoulos, maybe to the AMA) should use these arguments:
1. F2 is an amateur sport with no sponsors to embarrass.
2. We do not care a whit if a person against whom we are competing uses any drug.
3. Reliable enforcement will be expensive and burdensome. We are not young athletes, but elderly hobbyists with hypertension, cancer, and other chronic conditions for which we take lots of drugs. We can get Therapeutic Use Exemptions at some expense and bother each time we change a medicine, but drug enforcement without rigorous research into each TUE is a farce. The cost of this research would be astronomical. We think this money could be better spent renting a lawnmower for F2 world championships.
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An international competition inherently involves other countries. I don't think attacking the "supra-national" aspect makes much sense.
I merely point to it as a very high irritation factor that is guaranteed to @#$% people off. The "world", for the most part, sucks. Why lower standard to "world" standards when in this case it is obviously inferior and wrong? That's a flaw with the UN, as well. He's using that argument to espouse both "superiority" and the inevitability of the position.
I am sure that this entire thing stems from the long-planned Olympics delusions of some of the participants. If you add RC Pattern to the Olympics, might as well add stock car racing and Playstation bowling.
Brett
p.s. 3. Reliable enforcement will be expensive and burdensome. We are not young athletes, but elderly hobbyists with hypertension, cancer, and other chronic conditions for which we take lots of drugs. We can get Therapeutic Use Exemptions at some expense and bother each time we change a medicine, but drug enforcement without rigorous research into each TUE is a farce. The cost of this research would be astronomical. We think this money could be better spent renting a lawnmower for F2 world championships.
How this is being paid for is a very interesting point. I note that there is no shortage of money for "meetings" at a resort in Lausanne, Switzterland, and yet, as you note, they can't be bothered to mow the grass.
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So, effectively, the AMA is far and away the largest block of members in the FAI. However, every teeny little country in the world including places where 2 guys fly airplanes and another likes to look at magazines gets the same representation as the US. I also suspect if you look at the dues money it would be disproportionately from the US - just like the UN. And just like the UN, the process for imposing things like this is opaque, not responsive to the members, and is controlled by a tiny few, mostly non-participants.
Follow the money. There is a fairly simple solution to this issue. That is lobby all US clubs flyer's and contributors to the FAI to withdraw all support,participation and funding until this issue has been resolved. Its the golden rule. The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules. Now if they don't see eye to eye as was said we don't need them. We as a whole group can start our own world championships.
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Follow the money. There is a fairly simple solution to this issue. That is lobby all US clubs flyer's and contributors to the FAI to withdraw all support,participation and funding until this issue has been resolved. Its the golden rule. The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules. Now if they don't see eye to eye as was said we don't need them. We as a whole group can start our own world championships.
That's a good point. Drug testing is the sort of thing that can be imposed on a jock who stands to make money from the sport by officials who need to defend the sport from loss of revenue from ticket sales or media coverage. Maybe the FAI figures it can get some of this media money for its full-scale events, but I imagine that F2 money flow is in the other direction. Just offhand, I would guess that it goes from the AMA to the NAA to the FAI, hence the AMA or NAA should put its foot down. My international competition was funded by the AMA and the wife of the guy who builds my airplanes. The European world championships I've attended seemed to get funding from local government and entry fees, rather than the FAI.
Ironically, the only big-money sponsor of full-scale aviation I've noticed is the maker of a performance-enhancing drug.
Again, I don't think we'll make any points by telling the rest of the world and its institutions that they suck. We shall need to involve modelers from everywhere in refusing this nonsense from the FAI and of secession if necessary.
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Someone mentioned coffee and it reminded me of George Carlin back in the day when I could still listen to his routines. He had one on DRUGS and coffee was mentioned in it. I drink too much coffee I have been told. It relaxes me and helps me sleep at times. Now my brother Bob would drink a cup of coffee to get woke up or be alert. Could not even think of coffee if he wanted to sleep. I take Tylinol for the aches I have from old age or is it ancient age. But, if I have to take a drug test to fly in a model plane contest, I guess it will nothing but sport flying from then on.
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>>The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules.<<
Well, that's the theory. Shame we don't exercise it much. I mean, we are floating the UN almost by ourselves and take nothing but abuse from them. If we offer an opinion, we are being dictatorial and of course we back off.
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>>The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules.<<
Well, that's the theory. Shame we don't exercise it much. I mean, we are floating the UN almost by ourselves and take nothing but abuse from them. If we offer an opinion, we are being dictatorial and of course we back off.
Were it true that modelers contributed the most gold you may have a very minor point. But they don't. "Gold" in terms of the NAC comes in the form of FAI Sporting licenses purchased annually by people wishing to compete on a national or world stage (depending on the country) or attempt world or national records. The Parachutists, Aerobatic Pilots, Balloon Pilots and Glider Pilots purchase far more licenses than the modelling group does. For them PED's are a very real issue as they should be. The FAI had absolutely no say in this. Comply or be ostracized. The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition. No one at the FAI or CIAM has a clue as to what you do for a living or who you work for.
Terry.
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Were it true that modelers contributed the most gold you may have a very minor point. But they don't. "Gold" in terms of the NAC comes in the form of FAI Sporting licenses purchased annually by people wishing to compete on a national or world stage (depending on the country) or attempt world or national records. The Parachutists, Aerobatic Pilots, Balloon Pilots and Glider Pilots purchase far more licenses than the modelling group does. For them PED's are a very real issue as they should be. The FAI had absolutely no say in this. Comply or be ostracized. The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition. No one at the FAI or CIAM has a clue as to what you do for a living or who you work for.
It's not a real issue for us, and I am quite aware that the FAI or CIAM doesn't know who we work for, as it is none of their business. But, the simple fact remains that getting a false positive and destroyed life on a drug test conducted in a foreign country is not worth it to fly in a model airplane contest. Maybe someone thinks that's OK, we do not, and, last I checked, international modeling organizations are supposed to be responding to the needs of international modelers. Getting rid of 75% of the competitors because of a stupid olympics delusion, in a perfectly clean sport is not a service to international aeromodelling.
And before anyone asks, I have had an FAI Sporting License on and off for something like 35 years.
Brett
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>>The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition.<<
Clearly you haven't been reading this thread.
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>>The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition.<<
Clearly you haven't been reading this thread.
Too true.
After paying one's way to the TT's and then paying most of one's way to the WC, and potentially having occupational problems after arriving home, it would be a serious finanacial hit for many. I don't know how much a pee test costs, but it might be a good investment to pay for a pee test on yourself before leaving for the WC, and wrap a Benjamin around the cup when taking the official test. SH^ Steve
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might as well add stock car racing and Playstation bowling.
Brett
Brett,
I been pullin for stock car racing in the olympics ever since that silly wrestling sport got canned,, now there should be room right?
I think Bowling is probably more popular on the Wii,,
now Gran Turismo racing on the Play Station3 thats a sport i could get into,,
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now Gran Turismo racing on the Play Station3 thats a sport i could get into,,
Yes. I completed GT3 and GT 4 several times, and am at Level 40 in A-Spec in GT5, and have won all races except for not having finished the Nurbrugring 24-hour race.
I think I still have some records and quite a few top 10s on Racer's Edge in GT3 and GT4. 2:35 or something like that in GT4/Le Mans (Arcade mode, old course without chicanes).
For vision training purposes, I run GT extensively. If someone wants to cure the "yips" in stunt, don't take Phil's Propranolol stuff. Try running a Formula 1 car around the full Nurbugring course for about 20 laps. I guarantee the rest of the world will look like slow motion after that.
Brett
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Thanks for the update Bill.
I agree, looks like it was a money deal for some people, probably those who were doing the voting.
So, who wants to go to Poland now?
Derek
My employer too takes this stuff seriously. I already voluntarily take 'the test' every year (supposed health screening) to get a rebate on my health insurance. If I got a bad test out of the country I doubt they would ever know or care but if so they would send me for their own test to clear it up. We mostly agree this is silly for what we do and it's likely some matter of prestige for someone over there to join the IOC. Even so I can't let a tinkle cup stand in the way of a life ambition. I've already paid my team trial fees and I'll send you a Polish postcard!
Dave