Windy Urtnowski Mig Sweeper - Wing Puzzle

[Kevin Wright]

Hi,
I'm drawing up a set of CAD plans for a Sweeper 900 - ish plane based on Windy's Mig Sweeper.
The magazine plans I have illustrate  a root rib too short to match the root rib shown on the wing plan.

What am I missing?

Kevin

[RandySmith]

Hi,
I'm drawing up a set of CAD plans for a Sweeper 900 - ish plane based on Windy's Mig Sweeper.
The magazine plans I have illustrate  a root rib too short to match the root rib shown on the wing plan.

What am I missing?

Kevin

Wasn't  the  MIG  and  LJ  greenaway design that  Windy made look like a  faux mig  painted  RED?

Randy?

[Kevin Wright]

Wasn't  the  MIG  and  LJ  greenaway design that  Windy made look like a  faux mig  painted  RED?

Randy?

Hi Randy,
So, what your saying is, if I paint the root rib template shown on the plan red it will fit?
Kevin

[George Albo]

Hi Randy,
So, what your saying is, if I paint the root rib template shown on the plan red it will fit?
Kevin

lol

[Air Ministry .]

Well , dunno about the chord , but the SPAN is 76 inch .

If you go thru all Jose Modestos posts , youll find that quoted there .

Id thought ' we ' had the same issue , chord , on Barons Avanti .
Untill I checked it on the magazine drawing . IN the MAGAZINE .

The photocopier or printer was going all mingey across the top , hight wise . Or somesuch . so it could just be a positioning error .
Unless youve got a live magazine or plan .

Id think for authentacy and to justify the effort , let allone assure the deviation is within three microns , youd need the Full size Plan of its sucessor ..

seeing we're actually talking about the Sweeper P.M. - L.J. 900 .

[Kevin Wright]

Well , dunno about the chord , but the SPAN is 76 inch .

If you go thru all Jose Modestos posts , youll find that quoted there .

Id thought ' we ' had the same issue , chord , on Barons Avanti .
Untill I checked it on the magazine drawing . IN the MAGAZINE .

The photocopier or printer was going all mingey across the top , hight wise . Or somesuch . so it could just be a positioning error .
Unless youve got a live magazine or plan .

Id think for authentacy and to justify the effort , let allone assure the deviation is within three microns , youd need the Full size Plan of its sucessor ..

seeing we're actually talking about the Sweeper P.M. - L.J. 900 .

Matt,
When I do (TurboCAD / Tools / Enquiry / Distance) on the six inch scale on the scaled copy of the magazine plan I get 152.63 mm (= 6.0090551")
so I'm fairly certain my scaling is correct.
The root template outline matches the fuse cutout.

I don't believe there's enough distortion to account for a rib template to measure 234.36 mm in length
vs rib R1 on the plan (between LE and TE) to be 285.72 mm.

It's out by over 50mm (2.0 inches)

By the way, the current wingspan is 75"
Kevin

[RandySmith]

Hi Randy,
So, what your saying is, if I paint the root rib template shown on the plan red it will fit?
Kevin

Well Kevin   you could try the  RED paint  trick... it may work... but what I was saying is get a LJ  plan  and  use it for the  rib templates and  wing !  :-)

Randy

[peabody]

I believe that there were TWO Sweepers....one even bigger than the other....
The bug blue one that Zambelli restored resides at Brodak's. I believe that the published version was the less large of the two

Have fun

[Derek Barry]

I believe that there were TWO Sweepers....one even bigger than the other....
The bug blue one that Zambelli restored resides at Brodak's. I believe that the published version was the less large of the two

Have fun

I believe plans for all 3 Sweepers are available through the AMA.  We have a set for the Mig, i think. I will check.

Derek

[Kevin Wright]

There is a possible solution to the puzzle on page 70 of the Model Avaition magazine
in which the Mig Sweeper plan was published. A photograph shows Windy and Big Jim
together holding the mig Sweeper (Windy) and the Sweeper 900 (Big Jim).
The wing chords are close, however the Sweeper 900 has a larger chord.

Knowing what designers have provided me with in quality pencil sketches to be transformed
into accurate CAD plans, I wonder if the plans published in Model Avaition show the root template from
Windy's Mig and the wing plan view from the Sweeper 900?
Kevin

[Air Ministry .]

Mike. Are you building a sweeper or a BJ 900. Big Jim's name for that model
I still have the landing gear for windy's LJ900
There were four models with the high aspect ration wings
SJ= small 57"span. Max 35
LJ= Large Jim 63" span
Bj= Big Jim 72" span ST60
BJ 900. 76" span ST60
Jim damarel converted his LJ to electric. It flys real good now. It was not as god as a gas model.
Mike I'm with you on the power plant choice.
I built several LJ and BJ. They all suffered from whip up. I think the  E power system will be an improvement.
Got to talk with Creg Gunder this summer. We reminisce about those models.
I have Big Jim's LJ 46 in the basement.
I started building a model that I called the twenner 67 " span 800 sq. This model is the average of the pattern master and the BJ. I used the Plat 24-14 and the 30-14 with 5S-4000 77 oz.
hope this helps

I had all the parts from the 900 gave the model back to Jim's kept the landing gear.
The controls are specific to that model. I would only change to an elevator slider. It's real important to use the control system as designed  the flap root is over 4.5". The flaps moved 2/3 of elevator

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/good-starting-motorbattery-combo-for-a-big-stunter/msg466925/#msg466925

As Someone mayve said , the black & white Sweeper was a FOAM WING L J 900 , thus the Foam Templates are where Id Look ,
or is it they you speak off .

NOW WEVE GOT CONFUSION , the lettering on the wing says L J 900 on the AEROPLANE ITSELF . 
Sounds like perhaps A  B J 900 is the drawing that would e APPROPRIATE , the span may not be the only variation from the L J . Perhaps .

Hard to tell from a large rock here out in the middle of the ocean . Wonder if anyones holding a LJ 900 plan ? Come on , fess up .

[Air Ministry .]

ACTUALLY , this is what it says .



Ive found a little plan view picture in the flying models , about 92 ??. Maybe I will take a photo of it .

The cameras horizontal & the models vertical , static . With the builder . thereabouts .

The little six to a page stunt column pictures . Flying Models should hold the negative , if you were after a good plan view, to get all the script clear on the drawing .

 

[wwwarbird]

Hi,
I'm drawing up a set of CAD plans for a Sweeper 900 - ish plane based on Windy's Mig Sweeper.
The magazine plans I have illustrate  a root rib too short to match the root rib shown on the wing plan.

 Take your pen and draw it out a little longer. 

[Dan McEntee]

   If you need measurements from the LJ-900 in the photo, the owner lives in Lincoln, Nebraska, and his son is a member here on the list. I just for the life of me can NOT think of his name right now. The plane still exists and is flying shape, I believe. It sure is hell to get old!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Kevin Wright]

Folks,
Thanks for the ideas so far.

Pending something definitive, my interim solution will be to CAD up two sets of plans:-

One using the root rib of the Mig Sweeper as shown in Model Aviation,reducing the wing chord to match.
This should essentially be a restyled Mig Sweeper with the look of a Sweeper 900.

I'll also CAD another set enlarging the root rib, moments and fuse length proportionally, to match the wing plan of the Mig Sweeper as shown in Model Aviation
I suspect this second model will probably be closer to a Sweeper 900 than the restyled MIG

Kevin

[Kevin Wright]

   If you need measurements from the LJ-900 in the photo, the owner lives in Lincoln, Nebraska, and his son is a member here on the list. I just for the life of me can NOT think of his name right now. The plane still exists and is flying shape, I believe. It sure is hell to get old!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Hi Dan,
I live in Australia, which is more than a short walk from Nebraska. I also don't speak Nebraskan.

I therefore demand of you, as your sacred duty to provide this thread with the aforementioned contacts and LJ 900 dimensions.
(moments, airfoil e.g. NACA0028 etc, fuse length, wingspan, root chord, tip chord :- I.E all details to enable a functional replica.
Thanks, Kevin.

[Scott Richlen]

G'day Mate!

I have a set of the Mig Sweeper plans and I pulled them out and compared the wing chord to the wing opening in the fuselage.  There shouldn't be a problem.  The root chord is slightly longer than the fuselage opening just as you'd expect with a tapered wing.  I've never built a plane that I didn't have to adjust the wing opening for the wing anyway.  Order the plans from AMA and two truckloads of balsa and you're good to go!

Scott

Ummm, maybe make that three truckloads of balsa....

[Dan McEntee]

Hi Dan,
I live in Australia, which is more than a short walk from Nebraska. I also don't speak Nebraskan.

I therefore demand of you, as your sacred duty to provide this thread with the aforementioned contacts and LJ 900 dimensions.
(moments, airfoil e.g. NACA0028 etc, fuse length, wingspan, root chord, tip chord :- I.E all details to enable a functional replica.
Thanks, Kevin.

   Hi Kevin;
     Jared Hays is the gentleman that you need to contact. Hi Dad is the builder of the model in the picture I believe, and he is still active. they attend our contests here in St. Louis MO, and Jared is a member of this forum. Given the time difference between here and there, I'll try to give Jared a heads up by email that you are interested in details about his Dad's 900.
   Stay tuned for further developments!
      Dan McEntee

[Kevin Wright]

G'day Mate!

I have a set of the Mig Sweeper plans and I pulled them out and compared the wing chord to the wing opening in the fuselage.  There shouldn't be a problem.  The root chord is slightly longer than the fuselage opening just as you'd expect with a tapered wing.  I've never built a plane that I didn't have to adjust the wing opening for the wing anyway.  Order the plans from AMA and two truckloads of balsa and you're good to go!

Scott

Ummm, maybe make that three truckloads of balsa....

Scott,
Yes, I'm aware that the fuse opening matches the root rib profile. The root rib does not match the length of R1 shown in the plan view of the wing.
I'd appreciate it if you could check that against your full size plan.
Kevin

[Air Ministry .]

SCOTT , wouldya check the root & tip Foam Templates against the plan view , please . Grovel .  beg .

As to the svveeper , Quote frome Jared Hays Dec 11 2017 ,

" I know the black and white Sweeper 900 folded in flight, and the later black/red one called Sunday Silence I think had a control horn failure the week before the NATS Windy intended on flying it in.  I don't know the fate of the MiG however."

Adenum .

Thats the ' Black Sunday ' succesor and its Laser Welded Horn . 

Reading Windys F M Stunt column , he drove around for years staring into the back of his empty van , after the love of his life ,
 the Mig Sweeper, departed the mortal coil .
Cant recall the circumstance of its demise , however .
May never've been mentioned . P.T.S.D. etc etc .

Matt . ( Me ) .

AGAIN , all people with a B J / L J 900 plan , please stand in line , & report . 

 

Furtherr Too , and insofar , back then , Jarred said His Fathers ' Big Plane ' was loosely based on the Stilletto ./ But was an ORIGINAL .

Watch your fingers with all those doors opening & shutting . 

[Air Ministry .]

Ni naah Ni naah ni naah ,



https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/does-anyone-know-where-this-plane-is-sweeper-900/msg342011/#msg342011

[Scott Richlen]

Measurements from the plan to the nearest sixteenth of an inch:

Foam wing templates: root is 9 3/4; tip is 7 1/4, but note that the leading edge is quite pointed, so subtract 1/4" or so from these dimensions.

Plywood wing templates: root is 9 3/16; tip is 6 13/16.

Plan view measurements: root is 9 5/16 and tip is 6 5/8,  but these measurements would include the 1/16 sheeting around the leading edge; therefore ply and plan view are only off by about 1/16 at the root.  Can't say why the difference at the tip.  Nothing to get too excited about.  These were not CAD plans.

[Brad Smith]

Where can you find plans for the Bj900 with the 76wing span

[Air Ministry .]

Thankyou Kindly Young Man : SCOTT .

Brad , better organise a mobbing & scragging of Jose at the Nats , arm twisting , bribing & extorting .

Could well be History though . Dunno who other than Windy built one , and with the fire at Big Jims ,
it might have been the end of the trail . Pure conjecture of course .
Ive seen a B J Plan , and other rarities & gems , on worth point . Long after theyve gone , Via google pictures .

Dug the 81 Team trials picture out yesterday , will try'n post it here tomorrow . december 1981 Flying Models .
Near Square plan view photo of the LJ 900 in the previos pictures .

[Kevin Wright]

Measurements from the plan to the nearest sixteenth of an inch:

Foam wing templates: root is 9 3/4; tip is 7 1/4, but note that the leading edge is quite pointed, so subtract 1/4" or so from these dimensions.

Plywood wing templates: root is 9 3/16; tip is 6 13/16.

Plan view measurements: root is 9 5/16 and tip is 6 5/8,  but these measurements would include the 1/16 sheeting around the leading edge; therefore ply and plan view are only off by about 1/16 at the root.  Can't say why the difference at the tip.  Nothing to get too excited about.  These were not CAD plans.

Scott,
My CAD drawing (based on the magazine scan) shows the ply template as being 253 mm (we tend to speak metric in oz) or 9.25 inches
That's 1/16 off your measurement, but easily accounted for as I'm working from a magazine scan.

Yet the same drawing using the same magazine scan as an underlay gives me R1 as 285 mm (R1 on the plan is shown along the fuse centerline)
Even if I go to R2, nearest rib to the fuse side I get 281 mm length.

Now here's my theory from all the above:
When the Mig drawings were submitted to Model Aviation a plan was prepared which was sent off to be included
in the magazine.

Windy and or Jim noticed the wing plan was wrong. This was corrected for the published plans but too late for the magazine.
I'm fairly certain (having produced several CAD plans for stunt designers) that at some point Model Aviation  got the wing plan view
for the Sweeper 900 and the Rib profiles for the Mig.

Proof of the above would be to compare dimensions directly between a copy of the magazine and the published plans.
Kevin

[Robert Zambelli]

Found this - It's the magazine cover featuring the one I restored and flew.

I will donate it to the museum, giving the builder proper credit.

I also had the remains of the I-beam version but I gave them away.

Bob Z.

[Chris McMillin]

I bet for twenty bucks you can get the answer from ordering AMA plans.
You aren't going to have any measurable difference in performance if you wing it anyway. They were all different. The one's with giant flaps I didnt care for. I flew one of the Windy BJ models a couple of hundred flights and didnt care for it. Flaps were too big, but to be fair one couldn't change the elevator to flap ratio. We discussed cutting more flap chord off but it being pretty heavy decided to leave it since it was a "guest" airplane anyway and I was soon to leave town. It might work with an adjustable flap to elevator ratio set-up but it is so big and old fashioned I cannot think to why you would be making a PA ship from that sized model. You described it as an -ish model. If you wanted a Windy Mig and painted it just like his I could understand it, otherwise I'd make it smaller, and a couple of pounds lighter.
Chris...

Hi,
I'm drawing up a set of CAD plans for a Sweeper 900 - ish plane based on Windy's Mig Sweeper.
The magazine plans I have illustrate  a root rib too short to match the root rib shown on the wing plan.

What am I missing?

Kevin

[Kevin Wright]

I bet for twenty bucks you can get the answer from ordering AMA plans.
You aren't going to have any measurable difference in performance if you wing it anyway. They were all different. The one's with giant flaps I didnt care for. I flew one of the Windy BJ models a couple of hundred flights and didnt care for it. Flaps were too big, but to be fair one couldn't change the elevator to flap ratio. We discussed cutting more flap chord off but it being pretty heavy decided to leave it since it was a "guest" airplane anyway and I was soon to leave town. It might work with an adjustable flap to elevator ratio set-up but it is so big and old fashioned I cannot think to why you would be making a PA ship from that sized model. You described it as an -ish model. If you wanted a Windy Mig and painted it just like his I could understand it, otherwise I'd make it smaller, and a couple of pounds lighter.
Chris...

Hi Chris,
I have an order on it's way to the AMA Plans Service - turn around will be a few weeks.
The Mig Sweeper as published in Model Aviation is the basis for the model and no other.

In the construction article in the magazine Windy says "For sentimental reasons it is special to me:
it was the first ship that got me into the Walker Cup flyoffs." That's good enough for me.

The first version of the restyled Mig Sweeper (CAD drawings near completion) will have the aerodynamics of the Mig
and styling of the Sweeper 900.

I'm planning to make  the pdf plans available on the forum.
Kevin

[Chris McMillin]

Aha. Well that is a motivation. I liked the Mig, the other not so much. Every man has his likes but I thought some of Windy's stuff was steampunk meets O Gauge. He had great classic style on the original Cardinal with wing gear and wheelpants ( a model with zero association to the profile Brodak model) and showed a lot of versatility styling wise I suppose considering all of his varied designs.
Chris...

[Air Ministry .]

ITS ALL IN THE PAINT JOB .

Kevin intends to put all the markings , inklines and lettering , on the Drawing . 

No Sun today , so the best I can do what with our limited resorces , the price of electricty , and the overcrowding these days . 

[Joseph Daly]

I happened to over at Jose's house the other day and here is the only remaining piece of the 900!
Titanium and i heard it cost quite a bit to drill those lightening holes!

Thanks
Joe

[Brett Buck]

I happened to over at Jose's house the other day and here is the only remaining piece of the 900!
Titanium and i heard it cost quite a bit to drill those lightening holes!

    Why is that?  You can drill holes in titanium with conventional HSS bits, they wear out pretty quick, but not in a two holes of each size.

     Brett

[Air Ministry .]

I belive I can see Jose's 93 LJ 60 there , with the Purple Rudder,   Joseph .

And you didnt take any pictures of it for me .
Been lifting some from the windy Tape on you tube . Freeze , snip , throw in the email .
Dunno how to get a Http or whatever they are on them , but can photocopy .
Id thought my Strega canopy set up was an original . Then saw the film . Such is Life .

Its HERE in the flesh , at 1:29:30 , aviating even . Glad to see its still in one piece .
Though his commentry , I think its on that tape , is whats need for a pubic spectated comp . Dressed up , factual. without being flashy . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5369&v=83hwlwS1UWQ

[Jared Hays]

   Hi Kevin;
     Jared Hays is the gentleman that you need to contact. Hi Dad is the builder of the model in the picture I believe, and he is still active. they attend our contests here in St. Louis MO, and Jared is a member of this forum. Given the time difference between here and there, I'll try to give Jared a heads up by email that you are interested in details about his Dad's 900.
   Stay tuned for further developments!
      Dan McEntee

Sorry Dan My dad and I do not have the Sweeper 900 Jose Modesto has the only remaining piece of the plane, the landing gear as shown above.  I asked about this model several years ago because my dad was so fond of it back in the early 80's.  As mentioned above the wing folded on it.  My dad's plane is a highly Modified Stiletto that has a 770 sq in wing and high aspect ratio.  My dad liked the Stiletto looks but wanted a big wing area and high aspect ratio like the Sweeper so that's the closest we have to a 900 sq inch winged plane.