FAA restricts sUAS flying over Disney parks and sporting events

[Steve Helmick]

This came in the latest AMA eNews. I didn't see if it was a total ban, or if it would be under strict regulation, but it seems ok to this point. I'm afraid it's not a complete ban, and think that if it had been a complete ban, it would have said so in the title.

Meanwhile, I keep getting eAds from Hobby People and Tower pimping the latest and greatest in QuadRotor and MultiRotor equipment they have for sale.   Steve

Edit: "On October 27, the FAA issued three Permanent Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) creating restrictions for the airspace surrounding major sporting events and the Disney properties in Anaheim CA and Orlando FL. The new flight restrictions permanently prohibit the operation of unmanned and radio-controlled model aircraft within roughly 3.5 miles of both the Disneyland and Walt Disney World theme parks. The restrictions are also in place for a period of one hour before and one hour after major sporting events."

Uh-oh...did you see that? "Permanent Temporary"...I knew the FAA couldn't get it right...or is that AMA? I guess all the other theme parks are free airspace...Knott's Berry Farm, Six Flags, Sea World? Disney's got the coin, so they got their name in the regs? Can you say BS?

[Tim Wescott]

I noticed both the Permanent Temporary flight restrictions and the fact that Disney now seems to be an arm of the government.

Unless the FAA starts putting patrollers on the ground I don't see how they're going to enforce all this.  Think Barney Fife: "now, you guys just stop this, this nonsense, right now!"

[Sean McEntee]

Steve,

       I know it sounds oxymoronic, but it is most likely just a lack of adequete definition.  I dont know how much aviation background you have, so I dont mean to insult your inteligence, but TFRs are just that....temporary.  They go up any time the president is in town or any time there is a large gathering of people like sporting events.  The problem, im guessing, is that permanant restrictions are too clearly defined, and these just dont fall into any of them. Also, TFRs are very flexible and cant be tailored.  They also outline the prohibition of RC aircraft.  This seems like a quick fix untill the FAA can cook up something more permanant.

Tim,
     If the FAA is going to these kind of lengths, I'd be willing to bet they will put some sort of enforcement in place.

[Matt Colan]

Disney, as far as I know is the only theme park with a TFR over it.  I personally don't see an issue with what the FAA came out with in this.  TFR's are Temporary Flight Restrictions. I doubt there are sporting events that go on for days at a time that would constitute the need to have a TFR open over Yankee stadium for days on end. I'm sure we could all live with not being able to fly for four or five hours while a baseball, football game, or NASCAR race is going on. And also, since we fly tethered aircraft, would we not apply to the TFR because our airplanes are technically not airplanes?

[john e. holliday]

One way to find out is to fly our tethered planes until  some law official shows up and tells us we can't be flying in the area.   Then ask him how we could be bothering any body with a tethered plane that should never get any further than the length  of our flying lines.   AMA needs to get something done in black and white on paper.   The industry also needs to get something done with quad copters before they wind up like E-Z Just handles.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Sounds like a good start.

Floyd

[Steve Helmick]

No, I'm not hip to all the FAA acronyms, but I know that a private pilot is never allowed to fly over a military base...recall ol' Dad flying us to the east, around Ft. Lewis & McCord on the way south to Albany. I don't know what the acronym for that would be, but it would make more sense to apply that one, rather than "Permanent Temporary".

That just seems silly. Maybe they need a new one. Maybe have a contest among FAA employees, to come up with it, and give a prize for the winner. An overnight stay at the Whitehouse would be appropriate, since it's well known that the POTUS rents rooms to the rich and famous. To which all I can say is my favorite acronym, "WTF?". Who keeps that $?  Steve

[Russell Shaffer]

Link to the FAA - if you scroll down far enough to the "definitions"  it specifically states that "tethered aircraft" do not qualify as unmanned aircraft.  I think if a person was to print the page and carry it with him that would defuse the average law officer.  http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2013.pdf

[roger gebhart]

I'm guessing once this goes beyond a TFR it becomes a restricted area. If my memory serves me it seems the are some instrument approaches and departures etc that will come through this area. As a TFR this can be done in many cases. Once it becomes a restricted area that's petty much it. I don't think we want to get into rewriting procedures and  and rerouting that many aircraft. I know Disney and others are permanent but maybe in this case a TFR might better fit the situation.

[Sean McEntee]

No, I'm not hip to all the FAA acronyms, but I know that a private pilot is never allowed to fly over a military base...recall ol' Dad flying us to the east, around Ft. Lewis & McCord on the way south to Albany. I don't know what the acronym for that would be, but it would make more sense to apply that one, rather than "Permanent Temporary".

Military Operating Area, or MOA

That just seems silly. Maybe they need a new one. Maybe have a contest among FAA employees, to come up with it, and give a prize for the winner. An overnight stay at the Whitehouse would be appropriate, since it's well known that the POTUS rents rooms to the rich and famous. To which all I can say is my favorite acronym, "WTF?". Who keeps that $?   Steve

The FAA is almost certainly scrambling to rewrite FARs to include UAS in it's ability to rescrict operations.

Roger it's likely that corridors will be established for certain traffic to have access.  MQ-1C traffic flying out of Robert Gray here at Ft Hood have to fly a VERY strict departure and approach pattern to get in and out of the NAS and the Ft Hood Reservation. The same thing will happen there

[Motorman]

Where are you flying CL during a Micky mouse show? I don't see how this effects any of our activities.

I think if a person was to print the page and carry it with him that would defuse the average law officer.  http://www.faa.gov/uas/media/uas_roadmap_2013.pdf

Let me know how that works out.

MM

[dave siegler]

I think the no fly zones are being used for non safety reasons. 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/674886091e344ffa95e92eb482e02be1/ap-exclusive-ferguson-no-fly-zone-aimed-media

Also what is a major sporting event?  Soon little Jimmies soccer game will be a major event. 

No one will care if it is RC or not. 

[Matt Colan]

I think the no fly zones are being used for non safety reasons. 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/674886091e344ffa95e92eb482e02be1/ap-exclusive-ferguson-no-fly-zone-aimed-media

Also what is a major sporting event?  Soon little Jimmies soccer game will be a major event. 

No one will care if it is RC or not. 

Here is the link to the NOTAM regarding sUAS and sporting events. Little jimmie's soccer game won't become a major sporting event.

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_3621.html

[dave siegler]

Well not today, but after reading the TFR I noticed it it was only football, baseball and auto racing.  That's just today.


The Olympic games?  Is a PGA event far behind?  Or a large music event?  Or the Kentucky derby?  The Boston marathon?
Disney has a TFR won't Universal Studios want one too?  Forth of July fireworks?  A parade?

The point is that now the door is open so that some non aviation person can get a no fly zone.

I think going froward, any time there is a large collection of people, someone will ask for a TFR now, and no one will stop them.  That IMHO sucks.

I know many of you think this is about a few bad FPV RC'ers but it is much larger.  The banner towing industry just took a big hit. 

[ChrisSarnowski]

Great point, Dave. Is the Goodyear blimp going to be allowed to fly over stadiums anymore? As a kid there were banner towing airplanes flying past Jones beach, and sky writers, too. Banned next? What if I don't like airplanes flying over my house? Can I get them banned?

-Chris

[Matt Colan]

Great point, Dave. Is the Goodyear blimp going to be allowed to fly over stadiums anymore? As a kid there were banner towing airplanes flying past Jones beach, and sky writers, too. Banned next? What if I don't like airplanes flying over my house? Can I get them banned?

-Chris

No you can't get airplanes banned from flying over your house. You own airspace up to 400ft, but above that it's game on for General Aviation and everything else in the aviation world. Just because you don't like airplanes doesn't mean the FAA will give you a TFR to to prevent planes to fly over your house. It just won't happen.

[Matt Colan]

Well not today, but after reading the TFR I noticed it it was only football, baseball and auto racing.  That's just today.


The Olympic games?  Is a PGA event far behind?  Or a large music event?  Or the Kentucky derby?  The Boston marathon?
Disney has a TFR won't Universal Studios want one too?  Forth of July fireworks?  A parade?

The point is that now the door is open so that some non aviation person can get a no fly zone.

I think going froward, any time there is a large collection of people, someone will ask for a TFR now, and no one will stop them.  That IMHO sucks.

I know many of you think this is about a few bad FPV RC'ers but it is much larger.  The banner towing industry just took a big hit. 

I'm not sure how Disney got their TFR but I can look into it.

The point of this new rule is to prevent some idiot with a quadcopter with a gopro attached flying it up to 3-400ft over MetLife stadium, Dolphins stadium or wherever the event is being held and having the battery die mid flight. If it did die mid flight, that quadcopter is on a death spiral towards whoever is standing right underneath it. It's to help prevent issues from that happening

Also, TFR's already are set in place for the biggest events like the Daytona 500 and the Super Bowl.

Here is the TFR for Disney:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_3634.html

[Matt Colan]

I should also mention that my UAS professor is referring to these times as the Wild Wild west for UAVs. The FAA has fallen behind in trying to regulate them and they're doing whatever they possibly can to try and catch up with current modern day operations for UAS. Congress told them to have alll unmanned aircraft fully integrated into the National Airspace System by 2015. This is not going to happen, and we probably won't see aircraft like the MQ1 or MQ9 integrated until 2020 and beyond

[Paul Smith]

If they fly quad-choppers over crowds, pretty soon some will come down and injure a few, or maybe at lot, of people.  Better to ban them before the injuries.  I would define "major event" as anything with a crowd of people.  If I spent $100 a ticket to go to Disney I wouldn't want some yahoo flying ANY kind of RC device over me.

Quad choppers need to be made to comply with same AMA safety rules as other models.

As a licensed pilot I can testify that the FAA has NO enforcement resources whatsoever.  But when a crash happens they come in with a ton of firepower and find every possible infraction. 

Finally, quad-choopers are not model airplanes.  They are just dangerous flying toys.  Those who buy them have NOTHING in common with us, who BUILD model airplanes.

[Sean McEntee]

If they fly quad-choppers over crowds, pretty soon some will come down and injure a few, or maybe at lot, of people.  Better to ban them before the injuries.  I would define "major event" as anything with a crowd of people.  If I spent $100 a ticket to go to Disney I wouldn't want some yahoo flying ANY kind of RC device over me.

Quad choppers need to be made to comply with same AMA safety rules as other models.

As a licensed pilot I can testify that the FAA has NO enforcement resources whatsoever.  But when a crash happens they come in with a ton of firepower and find every possible infraction.  

Finally, quad-choopers are not model airplanes.  They are just dangerous flying toys.  Those who buy them have NOTHING in common with us, who BUILD model airplanes.

The more things change, the more they stay the same

This is the EXACT SAME mentality that people had of airplanes 100 years or so ago.  Airplanes were not regulated.  Pilots were not certified.  Those things simply did not exist back then.  First flight was in 1903.  The first pilots license wasn’t issued until 1927 I believe.  Till then, people built their own planes and taught themselves how to  fly, often with disastrous results.  Im willing to bet there were thousands of incidents and many more fatalities of either the pilot or bystanders on the ground.  Theres little to no data on it because, well, the internet or CNN didn’t exist.  You didn’t hear about EVERY SINGLE incident because news didn’t travel as fast as it does today.  Allot of people call this the “information age”, I think of it as the “too-much-information age”

Think about the 1920-1930s.  Civilian aircraft flew higher, faster and farther then anything the military had at the time.  It took until WWII for the military to catch up.  Same thing is true today.  The civilian UAS industry is FAR ahead of us.  Our “Brand new” MQ-1C is still running an operating system created in the mid 90s.  We may never catch up.
So gripe all you want. Its all happened before and its happening again.  The good news is the FAA is already in place.  The curve will be allot shorter and ALLOT FEWER incident/accidents/fatalities will occur.

Also, and I know it's hard but you need to put your love of the hobby aside for a second, but for right now if quads aren't classified as model airplanes then they can't be regulated by the very restriction everyone is crying for.

[Sean McEntee]

I should also mention that my UAS professor is referring to these times as the Wild Wild west for UAVs. The FAA has fallen behind in trying to regulate them and they're doing whatever they possibly can to try and catch up with current modern day operations for UAS. Congress told them to have alll unmanned aircraft fully integrated into the National Airspace System by 2015. This is not going to happen, and we probably won't see aircraft like the MQ1 or MQ9 integrated until 2020 and beyond

You won't see the -1s and -9s until later becaus integrating those into the NAS will be easiest.  When Jan 1 2020 comes around, and ADS-B comes into play, MALE UAS will be good to go. The hard part is now: the sUAS (still under IFR) flying around and occupying the same airspace as Dale Gleason's Cub    and the rest of the VFR traffic.

[John Stiles]

This sorta looks like to me, another fine/mess  involving AMA in a love/hate relationship with FAA causing a clearly/confusing minor/crisis about the three temporary/permanent restrictions relating to genuine/immitation flying toys in restricted/free airspaces, guaranteeing a pretty/ugly silent/scream in the universe of model aviation!  

[Sean McEntee]

This sorta looks like to me, another fine/mess  involving AMA in a love/hate relationship with FAA causing a clearly/confusing minor/crisis about the three temporary/permanent restrictions relating to genuine/immitation flying toys in restricted/free airspaces, guaranteeing a pretty/ugly silent/scream in the universe of model aviation!  

#like

[Sean McEntee]

Sorry about the frequent posts.  I’ve been in Unit Movement Officer course all day learning how to load stuff into milvans, onto trailers, and into aircraft.  Fun stuff.  Anyway...

Well not today, but after reading the TFR I noticed it it was only football, baseball and auto racing.  That's just today.


The Olympic games?  Is a PGA event far behind?  Or a large music event?  Or the Kentucky derby?  The Boston marathon?
Disney has a TFR won't Universal Studios want one too?  Forth of July fireworks?  A parade?

The point is that now the door is open so that some non aviation person can get a no fly zone.

I think going froward, any time there is a large collection of people, someone will ask for a TFR now, and no one will stop them.  That IMHO sucks.

I know many of you think this is about a few bad FPV RC'ers but it is much larger.  The banner towing industry just took a big hit.  

Great point, Dave. Is the Goodyear blimp going to be allowed to fly over stadiums anymore? As a kid there were banner towing airplanes flying past Jones beach, and sky writers, too. Banned next? What if I don't like airplanes flying over my house? Can I get them banned?

-Chris

More people who would rather gripe, complain, and waste their own time then read.  TFR for sporting events CLEARLY outlines any stadium with seating for 30,000 people or more.  There it is, black and white, what gets an airspace restriction and what doesn’t.
It also states:
 “. FLIGHTS CONDUCTED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF ANY EVENT, STADIUM OR VENUE AND BROADCAST COVERAGE FOR THE BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER ARE AUTHORIZED WITH AN APPROVED AIRSPACE WAIVER.”
     So yes, the Goodyear blimp, aerotowers, parachute teams, and flyovers can still do their thing.  They will just need to fill out a little more paperwork.

Any other questions?


In my 10 years of EXPERIENCE, things get harder before they get easier.  When we started flying out of RGAAF here at Ft Hood 2 years ago, we were very limited in when we could get in and out of the airport.  There were blocks of the day where we couldn’t take off at all due to increased commercial traffic.  Now we’re just another plane in the sky because we proved that it can happen.
The point is its going to “suck” for awhile while the FAA gets their slow-moving act together, but in the end everything will be fine.  Go ask someone from the FAA about fines for going out and soloing themselves, provided they live through it.  Same thing will happen to people who fly ANYTHING in controlled airspace one day...

[Mike Keville]

. . . Any other questions?

================================================

Yes.  When did the USA become a nation of wimps?

[Sean McEntee]

================================================

Yes.  When did the USA become a nation of wimps?

January 20, 2009?

[Mike Keville]

You got it, Sarge!   

[ChrisSarnowski]

Mike, Sean,

Apparently you guys are not aware that the internet is 99.999% horse crap. It should also be labeled "for entertainment purposes only".

-Chris

[Sean McEntee]

Mike, Sean,

Apparently you guys are not aware that the internet is 99.999% horse crap. It should also be labeled "for entertainment purposes only".

-Chris

You're right, which is why I don't get my information from the Internet.

[Bill Heher]

I live in Orlando and fly in/out of MCO almost every week. Disney World got a TFR for airspace above their property
( actually the "Reedy Creek Developement Corp" property- the quasi gov't entity that manages the entire Walt Disney World complex) shortly after 9/11.
Since then I have never been on a plane that flew over the parks on either Take-off or approach. The new restriction on remote controlled unmanned aircraft is just Ba progression from that initial regulatory action. The Disney complexes in FL and CA are considered high profile targets for terrorist ( foreign and domestic) due to the large numbers of people from all over the world who visit them every day.

The parks represent many of the things that extremists despise, i.e. big money, frivolous activities, open and accepting to alternate lifestyles, and used by what the fundamentalist extremists consider the "Moneyed Elite".

Disney is scared silly that someone or some group will carry out some type of strike on a large scale- chemical or biological, that could possibly impact tens of thousands of guests and employees. Wait until they get permission for a mini "Iron Dome" type defense system, or their own unmanned aircraft interceptors. Will we see CAP over venues like these some day- I feel it is not outside the realm of possibility.

[Sean McEntee]

Ya gotta love it!  Did any of youse guys watch the Chicago Bears get their ass kicked by Green Bay  last week?  The announcers got all excited about the TV coverage and showed a quad copter with a camera zooming over the stadium in place of the very expensive to rent Goodyear blimp. It went over the crowd and over the big area where people buy their drinks, etc. So, was that a major event?

See reply #23

[ChrisSarnowski]

What do you think are appropriate levels of regulations and licensing for UAV's (im thinking quads) flying over major sporting events (NFL, MLB, etc)?

I'm thinking the pilots need to be licensed in some fashion due to the public safety risks.

I think "hobby grade" electronics, motors, batteries, etc., are not sufficient. There are some real cheapo ESC's out there, for example. If a UAV/quad loses a motor and dives into the crowd, it would be very bad.

You probably want say a 6 motor quad (ok well hexacopter) so you could lose a motor and still keep flying. The flight controller probably needs to be better that what is currently available.

-Chris

[Scott Richlen]

I can understand why Disney Parks need protection.  Many, many years ago I went to Disneyland and had a wonderful time.  A wonderful time, that is, until I went on the "Its A Small World" ride with my two grade-school daughters.  They liked it!

All the other rides had warnings for the children "you must be this tall to ride", but there was no warning for adults about the small world ride.  Animatronic puppets by the hundreds singing "Its a small world" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....(sorry, but I had a flashback while I was typing)  The tune just kept going around and around in my head...."its a small world after all, its a small world after all"

I had nightmares for many years.  Even today, if I hear the tune its sort of like that Three Stooges routine of "Niagara Falls." 

I'm sure that there are thousands of others just like me.  Thought they'd go on a cute ride with their kids - but when the ride was done they were forever changed.  But they still haven't "come out" like I have, even in this current age of "coming out."  They just silently hold their pain in.  They try to hum the Doublemint song to drive the Small World tune out of their brain.  And then the Yogi Bear theme song to drive out the Doublemint song.  The pain!  The pain!  But one thing I know - they have all been waiting all these years to get even.  Yes someday, someday.

(If you are one of those silently holding in their pain, go to: WWW.\\I_rode_It's_A_Small_World_and_can't_get_that_tune_out_of_my_head_and_its_driving_me_nuts.com
They may be able to help you.)