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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bob Reeves on July 12, 2018, 02:39:38 AM

Title: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Reeves on July 12, 2018, 02:39:38 AM
Registration tomorrow, first official flights on Sunday the 15th. Best of luck to the US team.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Elwyn Aud on July 14, 2018, 05:41:15 PM
Any news or perhaps a website that has info?
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: B Norton on July 14, 2018, 06:02:50 PM
All I know is the u.s.competitors are there .Their airplanes are safely there . All signed in and ready to go Joe Gilbert flight is at 9:51 their time.I'm hoping for a good showing!! I'll be proud no matter what.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: bill bischoff on July 14, 2018, 06:25:49 PM
The US team site is 2018clwc.org. It has a link to the official site in the upper left corner.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Elwyn Aud on July 14, 2018, 06:26:36 PM
http://www.f2cmbl.org/index.php/fr/wc2018
Found a little bit here. Digging around on the site might turn up more info. Might not be much to report at present.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: john e. holliday on July 14, 2018, 06:55:50 PM
I had to go looking as I couldn't remember all the F2B team members.  But they are Richard Oliver, Chris Rud, Joe Gilbert and Samantha Hines(Jr member).   Even if they don't win the FAI World Champs they will get the experience and memories.   

Now lets hope all the other USA teams made it,  F2A, F2C and F2D.   Go team USA. H^^
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ruslan Kurenkov on July 15, 2018, 05:57:53 AM
Hello! Yesterday at 8 pm was the opening of the World Cup. Participants from 33 countries of the world are registered. In my class F2B - 97 competitors. Today the first flights in the tours. One flight per day. In just 4 days there will be 4 qualifying flights, two on the asphalt and two on the grass. Will sum up the best result on circle A and the best result on circle B. The weather is good, in the morning it's cool +20, after lunch it's hot +30. The air is very dense. Sometimes strong gusts of wind. At the opening of the national team of Ukraine and America were together, next to me, I took a little photo. I wish all excellent flights. Regards.RusLan Kurenkov
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Vitalis Pilkionis on July 15, 2018, 06:02:20 AM
Live picture from Landres:

https://www.facebook.com/ffaeromodelisme/videos/2084915048209876/
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 15, 2018, 06:16:42 AM
I'm wondering if this will be the stunt circle-that was a speed run I just saw.  Those trees don't look fun.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: SteveMoon on July 15, 2018, 08:28:38 AM
And Orestes Hernandez. He is there as defending champ.

Steve
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: John Paris on July 15, 2018, 09:51:45 AM
Just spoke with Steve Hines.  Samantha got her flight in earlier, scoring in the upper 800s.  Not sure where the board is that tracks the results, might only come out at the end of the day.  Some problems being reported for Richard Oliver with the oil they are using in the fuel.  Steve said something about an engine change.  Hopefully someone can add to this as info rolls in.
John
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Gordon Van Tighem on July 15, 2018, 11:35:24 AM
'Landres Word Championships F2' and 'PAMPA Control Line' sites on facebook have regular updates.
Some pictures:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1183703601662853/permalink/2037987052901166/
G
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Elwyn Aud on July 15, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
No F2B results yet but F2A competition was really close. The top 3 leaders were all at 297 KPH and some change. Nine tenths of a difference between first and third. Not having observed any speed flying before, maybe this is common.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Gordon Van Tighem on July 16, 2018, 03:26:42 AM
Day 1 results.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/119490068110977/permalink/1898319866894646/

G
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 16, 2018, 04:48:12 AM
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Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 16, 2018, 04:48:44 AM
2
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 16, 2018, 04:49:28 AM
3
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Joe Bowman on July 16, 2018, 04:54:23 AM
Thanks Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Gordon Van Tighem on July 16, 2018, 12:16:06 PM
An interesting study, perhaps Sparky might be interested as he is a student of judging consistency?
G
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 16, 2018, 12:30:04 PM
An interesting study, perhaps Sparky might be interested as he is a student of judging consistency?
G

    They already have people doing that over in Europe. It immediately descends to the usual "monkey house" substance-flinging activity, of course.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Steve Helmick on July 16, 2018, 01:17:36 PM
Scoring looks reasonably close between these three judges, IMO. The 0-10 scoring system with K-factors takes some getting used to.

One summer we did 0-10 scoring in our two Canadian contests, but ditched the K-factors...worked fine. I  flew and judged in both, IIRC. I don't like the idea of bringing decimals to the tabulators...KISS...no decimals. Speed and accuracy in tabulation are more important...don't make it any harder.

Less than perfect tabulation is totally unacceptable. FWIW, I am in favor of having the pilots check their score sheets and initial them as being correct (like golf), before putting them on the scoreboard. I advocated this for free flight events also. Simply have a calculator available for the fliers and make them do it!   S?P Steve   
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Gordon Van Tighem on July 16, 2018, 03:01:34 PM
The judge scoring example I posted is from yesterday’s flight in Landres, France.
G
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 16, 2018, 03:39:00 PM
The judge scoring example I posted is from yesterday’s flight in Landres, France.
G

The last time I went, we were fortunate enough to have Shareen there to double check all of our score sheets. She found more than one mistake...

If you don't have a Shareen, I suggest you total your own scores, just to be sure.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: pmackenzie on July 16, 2018, 11:07:13 PM
FWIW, they are using an electronic scribe system  so there are no manual steps between the judges and the totals.

Score sheets are available before you get your lines rolled up.

Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Reeves on July 18, 2018, 04:15:30 AM
Any results from day-3? Some of us will not do facebook.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RC Storick on July 18, 2018, 04:30:40 AM
Any results from day-3? Some of us will not do facebook.

Yep, I am one of those who dropped the CIA operation Spybook. The Gov wants everyone's DNA what better way than to get YOU to pay for it with the guise of ancestry and to get you to post your every waking moment for everyone to follow.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: James Holford on July 18, 2018, 05:11:38 AM
Yep, I am one of those who dropped the CIA operation Spybook. The Gov wants everyone's DNA what better way than to get YOU to pay for it with the guise of ancestry and to get you to post your every waking moment for everyone to follow.
Think you just described twitter lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Paul Walker on July 18, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
Qualifying over.

Orestes and Chris through to the finals.

Good luck to them!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jfv on July 18, 2018, 10:50:52 AM
where can we find the scores?
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: pmackenzie on July 18, 2018, 10:57:27 AM
where can we find the scores?

http://www.f2cmbl.org/index.php/fr/wc2018



edit - just checked and the results are still only for first two flights :(
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jfv on July 18, 2018, 11:29:49 AM
THX
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Joe Yau on July 18, 2018, 11:33:49 AM
Qualifying Rounds Results..

(https://s19.postimg.cc/f739q1fr7/2018_wc_Qualifying_result_5.jpg)
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 18, 2018, 11:57:53 AM
Yep, I am one of those who dropped the CIA operation Spybook. The Gov wants everyone's DNA what better way than to get YOU to pay for it with the guise of ancestry and to get you to post your every waking moment for everyone to follow.

Yeah, Me too!
Especially since the people that operate the thing are such Creepy socialist jerks!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Tom Luciano on July 18, 2018, 02:57:38 PM
Its now 11pm in France. Did they fly the first round of the flyoff?  Website said from 4pm to 830pm.


Best,

Tom
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Elwyn Aud on July 18, 2018, 03:53:45 PM
The results I looked at around 4PM differed a little from the results previously posted. Am I looking at the right page?
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: John Paris on July 18, 2018, 05:14:34 PM
Elwyn,
Your form is from a couple of days ago with only 2 flights in.  Follow the link that Pat Mackenzie posted for the latest.  It seems to have the current scores now.
John
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Joe Yau on July 18, 2018, 05:34:20 PM
The results I looked at around 4PM differed a little from the results previously posted. Am I looking at the right page?

Hi Elwyn,  The results I posted above is the same as the f2cmbl.org website..
 http://www.f2cmbl.org/index.php/fr/wc2018 (http://www.f2cmbl.org/index.php/fr/wc2018)  (click on F2B results)
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Elwyn Aud on July 18, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
Thanks. The results I saw were on the same website so they must have updated it since I looked earlier.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Air Ministry . on July 18, 2018, 11:31:25 PM
Trump shoulda got the Tarriffs on the Chinese Quicker . !  %^@ S?P .

Fly Offs the Top 15 / Not the top 20 ? . The orstrawiansl be miffed .  :(
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Tom Luciano on July 19, 2018, 03:47:18 AM
Question for the guys that are versed in the FAI rules.

Are the two juniors who were outside the top 15 after qualifying eligible to still win the "open"world championship? Or, at this point, just trying to win the junior division?

Thanks,
Tom
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 08:45:37 AM
Robby just sent me this photo:

Congrats to Marco!

Bob Hunt

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on July 19, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
Tom only one junior competed in the 15 finalist  the one from China. The Japanese and Ukrainian were junior
These kids had beautiful models 
The Chinese junior flew a GB from the Yatsenko composite molded
The Ukrainian junior flew a Maestro  from Ukraine composite molded
The Japanese  a built up balsa and tissue plane
Jose modesto
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 09:58:46 AM
Thanks for the reporting, Jose!

Bob Hunt
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 19, 2018, 10:13:47 AM
Just talked to Chris, they are having some issues getting the scores correct. He said currently he is in 7th, Orestes in 5th.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 10:39:40 AM
Interesting... Did he say if the top spot had changed or was in contention?

Bob
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 19, 2018, 11:03:26 AM
Interesting... Did he say if the top spot had changed or was in contention?

Bob

He didn't say, and I didn't think to ask. If I hear back from him I will let you know.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 11:29:53 AM
10-4, thanks - Bob
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Lauri Malila on July 19, 2018, 11:32:41 AM
Chinese won, Marco 2nd, Igor 3rd. L
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 11:34:16 AM
Just now looked at the FAI site and the official results now list Igor Burger in second and Liu Yang in third (they switched spots...). Orestes maintained fourth and Chris moved up to seventh.

So, Marco got the win. Again, congrats to the new F2B World Champion!

Bob Hunt
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 11:35:40 AM
Okay, maybe not... The FAI site seems to not be able to get it right...

So, is this now official?

Perhaps this electronic scoring system is not yet ready for prime time. Marco must be crushed. Congrats to Liu...

Bob
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 11:42:49 AM
Oops! I was looking at the qualifying rounds scores on the FAI site. My bad...

So, does any website now have the official results posted?

Bob
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Matt Colan on July 19, 2018, 12:33:06 PM
According to their facebook page, Liu Yang is first, followed by Marco and Igor in third
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Jim Kraft on July 19, 2018, 01:16:50 PM
Trying to figure out from their web site is like Abbot and Costello's who's on first. It would be interesting to know which flew electric and who flew glow. But that info may never be known. As it is, we will be blessed just to know who placed where.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: john e. holliday on July 19, 2018, 01:23:57 PM
From what I have seen on facebook and the Barton site team USA did not fair too well except for Chris and Orestes.   Looks like Chinese are team champions with Japan right behind.   Did not try to figure who the third place team is.  Too bad we can't get more support from our own country.  At least we can thank all the team members for representing the USA in the different F2 events.    H^^ H^^
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 02:29:16 PM
I suppose the Chinese Team won the Team Trophy.  I have to wonder if it's still like the old days where those guys were totally sponsored by their Government.

I always wonder why I don't like the Chinese...guess I'm just a BAAAD...Guy!

Incidentally.  Did something happen to Joe Gilbert?  He's such a nice person and, to me at least seems to be a much better flyer than his scores reflect.

Did the judges just not like him because he's a "New Guy".  By the way I also do not like the French and have never trusted them to do anything honestly.  I dealt with a lot of them through NATO in Europe when they were pulling out of NATO in the 1960's and to a man they were "RATS" in my opinion and they all were arrogant and hated Americans.
If the Germans or Russians or anyone else decide again they want France they can have it as far as I'm concerned.   In fact, I would form a cheering section!  I would never go there for any reason.

I certainly know the judges were not all French but my guess is if there was any was possible way, the rotten french would try to stack the deck against the American Team!

Just my educated opinion and your's may vary without malice from me!   H^^

Randy Cuberly

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Paul Walker on July 19, 2018, 02:32:50 PM
Preliminary scores were wrong.

Yang (China) 1st

Valliera (Italy) 2nd

Burger (Slovikia) 3rd

Nogome (Japan) 4th

Hernandez (USA) 5th

Hiki (Japan) 6th

Rudd (USA) 7th

Team Japan 1st

Team China 2nd

Tean France 3rd
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 02:34:42 PM
Congratulations to Marco, Orestes, and and Chris !

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Paul Walker on July 19, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
I suppose the Chinese Team won the Team Trophy.  I have to wonder if it's still like the old days where those guys were totally sponsored by their Government.

I always wonder why I don't like the Chinese...guess I'm just a BAAAD...Guy!

Incidentally.  Did something happen to Joe Gilbert?  He's such a nice person and, to me at least seems to be a much better flyer than his scores reflect.

Did the judges just not like him because he's a "New Guy".  By the way I also do not like the French and have never trusted them to do anything honestly.  I dealt with a lot of them through NATO in Europe when they were pulling out of NATO in the 1960's and to a man they were "RATS" in my opinion and they all were arrogant and hated Americans.
If the Germans or Russians or anyone else decide again they want France they can have it as far as I'm concerned.   In fact, I would form a cheering section!  I would never go there for any reason.

I certainly know the judges were not all French but my guess is if there was any was possible way, the rotten french would try to stack the deck against the American Team!

Just my educated opinion and your's may vary without malice from me!   H^^

Randy Cuberly


Since you are into opinions, here is mine:

Joe and Richard never had a chance. They fly a USA type pattern that no longer scores there. They don't have adequate corners.

Somehow the now accepted USA type scoring pattern does not reward tighter corners  even though the rules specify tight corners. This is not helping our F2B team compete.

Look at the US results. Orestes has the tightest corners of the US group, and he was the highest placing US pilot. Chris was the next tightest, and the next highest placing pilot.  And so on..
 If the US does not start getting on board with tight corners, get used to these results.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 02:44:12 PM
Hmmmmmm...All kinds of fancy electronic scoring equipment and they still can't get it right!  Yep!  the French are still French alright!  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 03:13:02 PM
Paul,
I believe you completely!  I've seen this occurring in local contests here in the USA where "smoothness" and "Pretty" have been described by judges as the desirable effect for the pattern.

I have in the past however seen Joe Gilbert fly very tight corners.  It's true that I don't believe Richard ever has!  Perhaps the judging at our selection process is not attuned to the necessities to win at the worlds.

I do remember however when the Americans flew hard tight corners and the Europeans calls us "Too Fast and Loud" and even Ragged".

Understand that my opinions are mine, but they weren't formed yesterday!

I also have to wonder why there isn't a coaching process by the "champions" we have an abundance of here in the US for prospective US team members.  And I don't just mean an afternoon in CA.  If we had an organization in the USA that was interested in "Modeling" and Modeling Competition, instead of multi-rotors, and MONEY, it would likely be easy too arrange that!

I also have to wonder why a totally European organization Founded in France is allowed to make all the "rules" for International Competition.  The FAI scoring system Sucks in my opinion!  It makes no sense to me that several maneuvers should each
 be worth, 2 or 3 times as much as others!  I simply don't buy that they are that much more difficult to fly well!  That comment has nothing to do with what the pattern looks like but that also has changed many times over the years.

Randy Cuberly  "Opinionated old curmudgeon"   <=  H^^
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 19, 2018, 04:11:36 PM
Okay, now that it is official and proper, it's time to congratulate the winners. So, here's to you Liu Yang; congratulations on your well earned win. And, here's to the entire Japanese team for their outstanding team victory (first time for them I think...). I see my very good friend, Masaru Hiki placed 6th; if I'm not mistaken, that's his highest placing yet. So here's to you Masaru! And congrats to Mr. Nogome for his great fourth place finish.

Congrats also to Orestes for a valiant try at a title defense; I know first hand just how difficult that is... And a big pat on the back goes out to Chris Rud for his seventh place finish in his first outing at a world championships as a Senior flier; he'll win one in the future I'm certain.

Condolences to Marco Valliera; it must have stung a great deal to have seen the initial results and believe that you had won the championships, only to have it taken away in a recount. Perhaps the electronic scoring should have been checked the old fashioned way just to be sure on it's first try before the scores were posted...

And lastly, congrats to Igor Burger; he is a class act and has been a great Champion in the past (two times...), and will be again I predict.

May you all now return home safely!

Bob Hunt

 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: James Holford on July 19, 2018, 04:19:17 PM
First or last im proud of our USA. They gave it their all and thats all we can ask for.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brent Williams on July 19, 2018, 05:22:44 PM

Since you are into opinions, here is mine:

Joe and Richard never had a chance. They fly a USA type pattern that no longer scores there. They don't have adequate corners.

Somehow the now accepted USA type scoring pattern does not reward tighter corners  even though the rules specify tight corners. This is not helping our F2B team compete.

Look at the US results. Orestes has the tightest corners of the US group, and he was the highest placing US pilot. Chris was the next tightest, and the next highest placing pilot.  And so on..
 If the US does not start getting on board with tight corners, get used to these results.

As an aside to the FAI corner reward, Paul's corners during his Sunday competition flights at the NWR with his new P-47 were astoundingly sharp!  I complemented him afterwards and he mentioned that his corners were actually backed off a bit from that planes true potential.  You had to be there, but given the caliber of the company he was flying against, I was surely impressed.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Howard Rush on July 19, 2018, 05:32:25 PM
By the way I also do not like the French and have never trusted them to do anything honestly.  I dealt with a lot of them through NATO in Europe when they were pulling out of NATO in the 1960's and to a man they were "RATS" in my opinion and they all were arrogant and hated Americans.
If the Germans or Russians or anyone else decide again they want France they can have it as far as I'm concerned.   In fact, I would form a cheering section!  I would never go there for any reason.

I went to the last three world championships held in France.  I found the French people to be most friendly and welcoming, especially to Americans.  Some examples: 

The 1990 opening ceremony was held in a stadium with lots of local folks in attendance.  They applauded when each team was introduced.  The American team received applause and cheering second only to the French team, only because the French team introduction was accompanied by fireworks. 

We drove around scouting for practice fields before the 2000 world champs.  We came upon a French air force base and asked if they would let us practice there. They were apologetic because the commander wasn't there (it was a holiday weekend) to approve letting us in.  Another guy we asked about a practice site misinterpreted our request and led us in his car to the WC site, several miles away.

Part of Dave Fitzgerald's loot for his 2008 world championship was a locally made ceramic lamp.  Dave assigned me to pack the lamp and ship it to him.  Knowing no French (I'm an American) I went to Longwy where the lamp was made, found a lamp factory and asked them if they'd pack the lamp.  It turned out to be a different factory than the one that made Dave's lamp, but they packed it elaborately and didn't want to take any money for doing so.  I think I may have forced (Dave's) money on them.

I also have to wonder why a totally European organization Founded in France is allowed to make all the "rules" for International Competition. 

Although it is currently fashionable to have opinions without facts or data, you might look at the FAI's Web site to see their rules process.  It's in English.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 19, 2018, 07:53:37 PM
I had to drop out around 1983 or so and I came back in this January of this year, I was disappointed at how big the corners had become.  I am not sure if it is the plans we are flying now can't turn them or the judges aren't rewarding them.  I think it is the latter.  I was not around to argue the changes but I suspect we changed the rules to accommodate those huge, over powered planes with heavy showroom finishes.  Instead of learning to build to meet the standards, we changed the standards to meet the build.  I could be very wrong but the deeper I get back in the less I think I am.  If we are ever going to be competitive again at the world level we are going to have to start rewarding 5' corners.  We have a judging problem in that if you follow the judging guide there is no way to reward tighter corners because you have to deduct for errors.  A 6' or 7' corner is still "tight" and from what I saw on the NATS videos even a 10' passes as "tight".  So why do 5' when you can get just as high a score at 7'?  I think today's ships can do the 5' corners and we need to bring them back.  Even 6' would be an improvement.  If we don't then we will forever be "bringing a knife to a gunfight" at worlds.

And that is just one old timer's opinion - Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 19, 2018, 08:26:11 PM
\  I was not around to argue the changes but I suspect we changed the rules to accommodate those huge, over powered planes with heavy showroom finishes.  Instead of learning to build to meet the standards, we changed the standards to meet the build. 

   Given that *I* changed the rules, I can assure you it was absolutely not to accommodate "huge overpowered planes" (which, incidentally, turn far better than was common practice from 1952-1989). If anything, the change - specifically, removing the entirely impossible 5' radius requirement - emphasized the corners, since it was essentially the same as calling the required radius 0 feet. But it also removed a long-term bugaboo where a few concentrated entirely on corner radius without considering anything else.

    In practice, it changed nothing about the corners, because the most competitive fliers are generally distinguished by how tight the corners were, and how close they come to 45 degree dimensions VS what sort of geometry errors they made as a consequence.

   A significant change from the "good old days" is that the airplanes don't seem to come to a dead stop in the corners, turn and then slowly accelerate away. They almost all fly through the corners with little speed variation, which, if you don't provide the proper entry and exit "definition", might look smoother (which it is) which you may interpret as softer. A different significant change is that the maneuvers from the top fliers are all in the range of (although not quite) 45 degrees, which also makes it harder to make the corners look sharp since they are smaller and the corner is a larger fraction of the dimensions.

   Paul's comment reflects a change in the FAI over the time frame you mention from a time when exactly NO emphasis or consideration was placed on cornering or sizes in comparison to hitting 5 feet, to the current situation where, apparently, size and cornering are the key determining factors. This was after many years of US pilot's "encouragement" to do so, but was probably not the source of the change.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 09:30:27 PM
I went to the last three world championships held in France.  I found the French people to be most friendly and welcoming, especially to Americans.  Some examples: 

The 1990 opening ceremony was held in a stadium with lots of local folks in attendance.  They applauded when each team was introduced.  The American team received applause and cheering second only to the French team, only because the French team introduction was accompanied by fireworks. 

We drove around scouting for practice fields before the 2000 world champs.  We came upon a French air force base and asked if they would let us practice there. They were apologetic because the commander wasn't there (it was a holiday weekend) to approve letting us in.  Another guy we asked about a practice site misinterpreted our request and led us in his car to the WC site, several miles away.

Part of Dave Fitzgerald's loot for his 2008 world championship was a locally made ceramic lamp.  Dave assigned me to pack the lamp and ship it to him.  Knowing no French (I'm an American) I went to Longwy where the lamp was made, found a lamp factory and asked them if they'd pack the lamp.  It turned out to be a different factory than the one that made Dave's lamp, but they packed it elaborately and didn't want to take any money for doing so.  I think I may have forced (Dave's) money on them.

Although it is currently fashionable to have opinions without facts or data, you might look at the FAI's Web site to see their rules process.  It's in English.

Howard,
I'm happy you had warm experiences in France.  My own were not always as warm and friendly!

My opinions of the French people in general were formed in the 1960's as a military US Army Officer working for HAFMED (Headquarters Allied Forces Mediterranean),
In Malta GC.  During the time when France was withdrawing from NATO (1964 to 1965) Roughly, I visited Paris, the outgoing SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Forces Mediterranean) Headquarters.  I saw riots, burning American Flags, Had excrement thrown at me, and was called names that were not very NICE!  All this because France, basically, wanted to make all the rules for NATO in the Mediterranean ( as they always did for everything else)!  Most of the other NATO countries, of course, objected to this, so De Gaul, basically took thier "marbles and went home"!  The French people in general tend to be nice on the surface as long as you're doing things their way.  Not so nice if you're trying to do things differently than "their" way!  Yes it's their dammed country and they certainly have the right to do that but like wise I have the right not to like their way! 

Later in the early 1970's after the Army experience, I met and married a lovely Austrian lady here in the US, who was with the Austrian Counsel General's Office in Chicago (USA).  She happened to be a simultaneous interpreter of several languages, one of which was French.  She had spent a lot of time in Paris and wanted to Honeymoon there.  Against my better judgement I agreed and we went there.  I of course enjoyed myself and found most of the French people to be kind and friendly.
However my sweet lovely Bride after a few days said that many of her long time friends there now were pretty cold toward her and she discovered that it was because she had married an American. 

We left Paris and went to Vienna (Austria) her home.  The difference in the way I was treated there was astounding.  The Austrian people are very warm and friendly, and for all practical purposes seem to live in a moving "Party".   They made me feel as if I belonged there.

Many years later I had occasion to return to Paris on Business for several days and once again was made to feel like an orphan child.  I found in general the French people were generally rude unless they wanted something from you.

I've taken the time to write this simply to show that my opinion of the French people was not formed in a vacuum. 

I have traveled extensively through out the world and found the people in most places to be warm and genuine.  Not so the people of France.  At least not toward Americans!  At least not after they get your money!

There are other reasons, I would not print here, but suffice it to say that I would never go to France again!

Randy Cuberly

PS:  I have read the FAI Rules and think they are stilted and in spite of being drawn up by a committee of different countries still reflect the general attitude of the original French organization!  Yes, my opinion but I assure you it's an educated one!








Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Air Ministry . on July 19, 2018, 09:38:22 PM
A five foot corners Not a Problem .

a Clean Consistant five foot corner . no bobbles or bounces IS .

But steping outside convention ( Nobler Spec Geometry ) can get you on the way .( Beriger didnt have ' Nobler ' aerodynamics  )

5.2 plus laps And Low Inertia required . Or Excellent Control Authority . Which you DONT GET on .015 stainless lines .

Obviously the main objective is a good party .  S?P S?P
Good to see the international ' Liberty Equality Fraternity ' etc . Allways thought the meeting of nations of more importance historically than the victories or defeats as its a competition Not a Conflict ??

Theyll be asking for the Statue of Liberty back , if you keep that up , Randy .
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 09:42:19 PM
I would like to congratulate my Friend Masaru Hiki (Hiki San) on his performance at the worlds.

Hiki San has attended VSC here in Tucson several times (4 I think) with Kaz Minato.  He is a very fine gentleman and an excellent stunt flier of the very topmost caliber.

He has in fact won both Classic and super 70's here several times.  His patterns with classic airplanes are seemingly near perfection, and his corners with the classic airplanes are astounding.  We nicknamed him "The Flash" because his corners simply gave the appearance of a "Flash" and a straight line.  No Kidding!

I am not one bit surprised at his performance at the worlds and expect to one day soon, see him as the World Champion!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 09:49:41 PM


Theyll be asking for the Statue of Liberty back , if you keep that up , Randy .


 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

The French did help us in the American Revolution.  They sat in their ships in the harbor at New York and waited until they were absolutely sure we were going to win and then finally joined in to the victory.
History shows they were actually scared silly of reprisal from King George!

But they did help in the "Mop Up".

As for the statue...good riddance!   <= <= <=  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on July 19, 2018, 10:13:41 PM
As far as the  Corner  goes, No One  is  doing a  5 foot radius  corner.

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 19, 2018, 10:24:23 PM
In truth the human eye and brain is not capable of registering the difference between a 6 or 7 ft radius corner and a 4 or 5 ft radius corner.

It has been photographically proven that the aforementioned 5 ft corner is likely impossible with a CL stunt plane!  Also the "G" loads even at 6 or 7 ft and 60 or so MPH are astounding!

Remember Derrick's folded wing at the NATS?

Not picking on you Derrick...I think you may very well have won if you could have kept your primary airplane in one piece!  That's also the opinion of someone else that I respect very highly!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Howard Rush on July 20, 2018, 12:24:25 AM
Remember Derrick's folded wing at the NATS?

You are ornery today.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 20, 2018, 12:31:29 AM
I think this thread has some very unfortunate undertones to it. The team did the hard work and not inconsiderable expense to both get on the team, prepare and travel, and compete, everyone else sat at home and read about it. Anyone who thinks they could do better is certainly welcome to try. The pilots from other countries aren't exactly cannon fodder, they are damn good.

I think Orestes and everyone on the USA team did a fine job under difficult circumstances, and as far as I can tell conducted themselves with grace, dignity, and sportsmanship. They should be, and we should be, proud of and grateful for their accomplishments.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 20, 2018, 04:08:44 AM
I think this thread has some very unfortunate undertones to it. The team did the hard work and not inconsiderable expense to both get on the team, prepare and travel, and compete, everyone else sat at home and read about it. Anyone who thinks they could do better is certainly welcome to try. The pilots from other countries aren't exactly cannon fodder, they are damn good.

I think Orestes and everyone on the USA team did a fine job under difficult circumstances, and as far as I can tell conducted themselves with grace, dignity, and sportsmanship. They should be, and we should be, proud of and grateful for their accomplishments.

     Brett

Thank you Brett, you are absolutely correct. We should all be proud of our team. I know I am!

Derek

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 20, 2018, 04:31:41 AM
Not picking on you Derrick...I think you may very well have won if you could have kept your primary airplane in one piece!  That's also the opinion of someone else that I respect very highly!

Randy Cuberly

Well, I would like to agree with that assessment, however, there is no way to really know. The folded plane certainly would have scored better in appearance judging, which would have narrowed the gap between David and I, but he was flying extremely well on top five day. (Probably as good as I have ever seen him fly) David was the clear winner that day, and anyone who watched all three rounds would probably agree. My last flight was probably as good as I was capable of, and it was still a few points shy of David. Even if I had done it twice, I still would have been second, or "first place loser" as Paul likes to call it.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 20, 2018, 05:02:22 AM
Thank you Brett, you are absolutely correct. We should all be proud of our team. I know I am!

Derek

I second Derek's and Brett's thoughts about the United States team; they fought hard to get to the WCs, and they did a great job. If you have never been a participant in the crucible that is a World Championships, there is no way that you can understand the challenges and the pressures that exist there. Our team can be proud of their week's efforts, and we should all applaud them heartily!

In an earlier post I congratulated the "winners" (really there is only one winner...), and was remiss in not giving appropriate credit to the entire US team for their valiant effort. Thank you all guys  and young lady!

What a wonderful experience this must have been for Samantha Hines. She will remember this forever and will maintain the many friendships she made throughout her life I'm sure. 

Bob Hunt
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: TDM on July 20, 2018, 06:09:08 AM
Congratulations to the USA team job well done. It must have been very tough. I thank you for representing us for the effort physical financial etc that went in it.
I am proud of all of you Orestes Chris Richard Joe and Samantha. Have a safe trip back home.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Crist Rigotti on July 20, 2018, 07:42:36 AM
I also agree with what Brett said!  Well done Team USA!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: pat king on July 20, 2018, 08:05:16 AM
I want to say to all the US competitors that we appreciate all your hard work, the hours spent, and the expense you put forth to represent the USA. I am proud of all of you.

Pat
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on July 20, 2018, 08:34:03 AM
I think this thread has some very unfortunate undertones to it. The team did the hard work and not inconsiderable expense to both get on the team, prepare and travel, and compete, everyone else sat at home and read about it. Anyone who thinks they could do better is certainly welcome to try. The pilots from other countries aren't exactly cannon fodder, they are damn good.

I think Orestes and everyone on the USA team did a fine job under difficult circumstances, and as far as I can tell conducted themselves with grace, dignity, and sportsmanship. They should be, and we should be, proud of and grateful for their accomplishments.

     Brett

Great Post!! 

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Paul Walker on July 20, 2018, 08:35:23 AM
OK, I started the tight corner discussion on this thread. I was not trying to pick on any one, but trying to suggest how the next team could train for that competition. Unfortunately, that is now a requirement for doing well there.

Like the others, I am proud of the effort expended by these pilots to compete at this competition. I know what Chris went through getting ready, and that would be emotionally hard on anyone. He just kept going without skipping a beat and did very well for his first Sr competition there. Orestes coming off a win, that is really hard to keep the intensity and drive to do well. His finish showed that he really wanted to win again.

Thanks all for your representing the USA.

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 20, 2018, 09:31:53 AM
OK, I started the tight corner discussion on this thread. I was not trying to pick on any one, but trying to suggest how the next team could train for that competition. Unfortunately, that is now a requirement for doing well there.

   I am sure you are correct and that was an excellent point, but I think people got off studying that tree, and forgot they were in a forest. I am sure everyone involved is well aware of the situation, having lived it for the last year and been consumed with it for the last two weeks.

   I also think that everyone should be aware of and keenly appreciative of the fact that FAI competition has been extremely frustrating long before the current emphasis shifts. Even being willing to *try* seems to be a difficult hurdle - I quite consciously chose NOT to even try out because I didn't think I could give it the effort it deserves. Chris/Richard/Joe/Samantha took on that challenge knowing full well it was going to be extremely difficult. I think everyone deserves all the credit in the world for that, and it is *far more important than the actual results*.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: john e. holliday on July 20, 2018, 09:53:53 AM
I too am proud of our entire Team USA that flew the F2 events, all of them.   Team F2B was all new to the worlds.   But I still wonder why Joe and Samantha went with fairly new planes to compete with.  All the factions of FAI control line take a lot of dedication and work to get competitive.   I know I tried with several partners years ago to compete in F2C with what resembled planes and not the guppies I see going now.   Now it is buy and fly/practice for most with planes that don't look like planes.   Even the F2A plane all look alike and it is up to who gets the best performance with the store bought equipment.   All four classes of FAI control line are no more BOM like when I tried F2C competition.

But looking at the posts on facebook it looks like the USA had some podium finishes.  Hopefully see all the results in time. D>K
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 20, 2018, 10:19:36 AM
OK, I started the tight corner discussion on this thread. I was not trying to pick on any one, but trying to suggest how the next team could train for that competition. Unfortunately, that is now a requirement for doing well there.

Like the others, I am proud of the effort expended by these pilots to compete at this competition. I know what Chris went through getting ready, and that would be emotionally hard on anyone. He just kept going without skipping a beat and did very well for his first Sr competition there. Orestes coming off a win, that is really hard to keep the intensity and drive to do well. His finish showed that he really wanted to win again.

Thanks all for your representing the USA.
I am with you on that.  Congratulations to a very talented team that did their best in difficult conditions.  Welcome home!

I am guilty on an earlier post of appearing to criticize the participants when my problem is with the system.  My reaction produced a flurry of rebuttals. This was not the proper place or time for me to do that and for that I apologize.  I do feel that we need to revisit some issues but not on this thread and certainly not now. 

Ken 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: James Mills on July 20, 2018, 11:12:49 AM
I think this thread has some very unfortunate undertones to it. The team did the hard work and not inconsiderable expense to both get on the team, prepare and travel, and compete, everyone else sat at home and read about it. Anyone who thinks they could do better is certainly welcome to try. The pilots from other countries aren't exactly cannon fodder, they are damn good.

I think Orestes and everyone on the USA team did a fine job under difficult circumstances, and as far as I can tell conducted themselves with grace, dignity, and sportsmanship. They should be, and we should be, proud of and grateful for their accomplishments.

     Brett
Well said, I agree 100%.  Proud of our team, safe travel home.


James
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on July 20, 2018, 11:56:02 AM
   I am sure you are correct and that was an excellent point, but I think people got off studying that tree, and forgot they were in a forest. I am sure everyone involved is well aware of the situation, having lived it for the last year and been consumed with it for the last two weeks.

   I also think that everyone should be aware of and keenly appreciative of the fact that FAI competition has been extremely frustrating long before the current emphasis shifts. Even being willing to *try* seems to be a difficult hurdle - I quite consciously chose NOT to even try out because I didn't think I could give it the effort it deserves. Chris/Richard/Joe/Samantha took on that challenge knowing full well it was going to be extremely difficult. I think everyone deserves all the credit in the world for that, and it is *far more important than the actual results*.

    Brett

Bravo, Brett!

Ted
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on July 20, 2018, 01:15:03 PM
I think this thread has some very unfortunate undertones to it. The team did the hard work and not inconsiderable expense to both get on the team, prepare and travel, and compete, everyone else sat at home and read about it. Anyone who thinks they could do better is certainly welcome to try. The pilots from other countries aren't exactly cannon fodder, they are damn good.

I think Orestes and everyone on the USA team did a fine job under difficult circumstances, and as far as I can tell conducted themselves with grace, dignity, and sportsmanship. They should be, and we should be, proud of and grateful for their accomplishments.

     Brett

Brett    exactlly  , Great post    we  should  all  be  proud  of our US Teams ,  It takes  tremendous efforts  to  represent the  US, or any other  country, our  Guys and  Girl  gave a   tremendous  effort  for the  US Team  and  we should  applaud  the  effort   and dedication  they put forth .

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on July 20, 2018, 06:22:37 PM
I'm unclear on how any of this scoring confusion is possible inasmuch as the entire scoring regimen was performed by Silicon Valley's finest flawless findings.  (Silicon Valley as a generic fill-in).  Why did anyone even bother to check...and how did they manage to convince the computers they were wrong?  Why didn't they all just ask Siri?

I'm so confused.

Ted
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: BillLee on July 20, 2018, 11:53:15 PM
Question for the guys that are versed in the FAI rules.

Are the two juniors who were outside the top 15 after qualifying eligible to still win the "open"world championship? Or, at this point, just trying to win the junior division?

Thanks,
Tom
The top 15 (plus any tie at #15) all compete for the overall world Championship, irregardless of age. The top three Juniors are added into the final rounds and compete for the Junior World Championship.

In the case this year, one Junior made the top 15, so the final rounds were for 17 competitors, 14 Seniors, 3 Juniors. The 3 Juniors competing for the junior World Championship against each other, and the one Junior that qualified in the top 15 also competing for the Senior World Championship.

And yes, it is possible for a Junior to be both Senior AND Junior World Champion, as has happened in F2D recently.

Regards,

Bill Lee
Team Manager
United States
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Tom Luciano on July 21, 2018, 04:11:23 AM
Thank you Bill, for the clarification.

Tom
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: pmackenzie on July 21, 2018, 08:57:58 AM
But I still wonder why Joe and Samantha went with fairly new planes to compete with. 

I can't be 100% sure in their case, but often the need for a new model is simply the requirement of getting it there.
Basically it has to be take-apart, and most models built are not.

Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Reeves on July 21, 2018, 10:32:58 AM
I can't be 100% sure in their case, but often the need for a new model is simply the requirement of getting it there.
Basically it has to be take-apart, and most models built are not.

Pat MacKenzie

You got it, I'm thinking Joe would have loved to have been able to compete with his Ringmaster.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on July 22, 2018, 01:44:57 AM
This was world CHAMP, not world war, so there is not need to hate chinese, french, russian or me or anyone else  VD~, I can say it was nice friendly contest, beside problems in Ukraine (which they must solve themself) I can say it was nice contest in friendly atmosphere.

Regarding new planes - Pat got it as it was also his case. The same I did in Perth, my model was few weeks old  ;D unfortunately this time I broke my new model in my car which I used last year on E champ so I had to take 7 years old model which was already "forever" hanging on wall and I had to reincarnate it. And what is pity, I cannot use it as an excuse for my 3rd place. Youngsters are comming and want win. I did not spectate them because I concentrated to our pilots, especially 15 years old Patrik. But from few maneuvers which I saw they all simply fly well, and this time it was really hard to get to finals. Example is Alex S. and Jiri V. - mates who placed 2nd and 3rd after me some years ago in Bulgaria. Alex went to finals after luck in last qualification round and Jiri did not do it at all. Well young generation comes :- )))))) ... and that is good.

If there is what I am disapointed from is fact that there are too many purchased models on top. Looks like it is getting to be "toy" event, not "modeling" anymore  :'(
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: GERALD WIMMER on July 22, 2018, 04:40:50 AM

If there is what I am disapointed from is fact that there are too many purchased models on top. Looks like it is getting to be "toy" event, not "modeling" anymore  :'(

Hello
This is where the US appearance points and builder of the model rules seem better to me. Personally I think an individuals effort to build a scale stunt subjects like Al Rabe's models is as good as it gets ! There is a likeness and similarity between most top models now with no incentive to create a B24, FW200 or  Avro Lancaster stunter to please the eye.  ;)

Regards Gerald
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RC Storick on July 22, 2018, 06:52:23 AM
This was world CHAMP, not world war, so there is not need to hate chinese, french, russian or me or anyone else  VD~, I can say it was nice friendly contest, beside problems in Ukraine (which they must solve themself) I can say it was nice contest in friendly atmosphere.



Bankers fight wars, not modelers. Unless the war is over the B.O.M..
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 22, 2018, 07:57:36 AM
If I understood what I read FAI DID enact a BOM bonus point scheme for 2019.  At the last minute somebody pulled out the ‘points’ to it and it was left as a friendly suggestion.  It should be pushed again as a MANDATE.  Building a high-performance take-apart travel airplane isn’t easy and just buying a winner shouldn’t be an option, though I understand wanting to if the rules allow it.  This is supposed to be the game of champion modelers- so be it.  IMO.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: BillLee on July 22, 2018, 09:12:45 AM
If I understood what I read FAI DID enact a BOM bonus point scheme for 2019.  At the last minute somebody pulled out the ‘points’ to it and it was left as a friendly suggestion.  It should be pushed again as a MANDATE.  Building a high-performance take-apart travel airplane isn’t easy and just buying a winner shouldn’t be an option, though I understand wanting to if the rules allow it.  This is supposed to be the game of champion modelers- so be it.  IMO.

Dave
I'll leave it up to Peter Germann to explain that since he was at the meetings in Lausanne where the 5 or 6 folks who can afford to get there  ripped out what the entire F2 Technical Committee voted for.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 22, 2018, 11:41:03 AM
Robby do you, or Bill know when the next rules cycle comes around to submit proposals?

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 22, 2018, 12:00:40 PM
I'll leave it up to Peter Germann to explain that since he was at the meetings in Lausanne where the 5 or 6 folks who van afford to get there  ripped out what the entire F2 Technical Committee voted for.
All it takes to have politics is an issue and 3 people.

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: BillLee on July 22, 2018, 12:20:14 PM
Robby do you, or Bill know when the next rules cycle comes around to submit proposals?

Dave

Rule proposals for F2 are considered/voted upon at the Plenary April meeting in Lausanne only in the years of a F2 World Championships. All rules proposals have to be submitted to the FAI by November 15 of the previous year, which means submitted somewhat earlier to AMA (Colleen Pierce)  to allow her to prepare and send to the FAI.

Regards,

Bill Lee
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Peter Germann on July 23, 2018, 04:07:22 AM
I'll leave it up to Peter Germann to explain that since he was at the meetings in Lausanne where the 5 or 6 folks who can afford to get there  ripped out what the entire F2 Technical Committee voted for.

By e-mail and prior to the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting the members of the FAI  F2 Subcommittee voted 13 for and 6 against on the original swiss proposal which suggested the addition of BOM bonus points to the flight score.

Later, at time of the Technical Meeting from April 27 2018 in Lausanne, it was found that:

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the participants at FAI F2B contests.

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from others may have a demotivating effect on newcomers.

The delegates present (6) have therefore modified the proposal accordingly by removing the wording allowing the addition of bonus points to flight scores. The related voting was 6 for and 0 against. The revised version of the Concours d’Elégance F2B proposal was then submitted to the Plenary Meeting from April 28. The Delegates representing 37 countries have unanimously accepted the modified proposal. It will be set in force by January 1st. 2019.

For details, please check the minutes of the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting on pages 43 - 58:

www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/ciam_2018_plenary_minutes_final.pdf (http://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/ciam_2018_plenary_minutes_final.pdf)

rgds, Peter Germann
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:29:15 AM
Thank you Peter.  I haven’t gotten all the way through it yet but I will later today.  I will put forth through the proper channels a proposal (bi-annually if need be) to REQUIRE BOM with or without appearance judging for JUST the World competition, not affecting any other lesser events.  I may see if the PAMPA EC cares to enjoin.  At this level these competitors should be able and willing to construct their own airplanes.  We do this at our own Nationals with the Open class only and it works well.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Robert Zambelli on July 23, 2018, 06:41:43 AM
What aircraft/engine combination was used by the first place entrant?
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 07:04:03 AM
What aircraft/engine combination was used by the first place entrant?
Yatsenko Shark/electric
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: BillLee on July 23, 2018, 10:55:12 AM
By e-mail and prior to the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting the members of the FAI  F2 Subcommittee voted 13 for and 6 against on the original swiss proposal which suggested the addition of BOM bonus points to the flight score.

Later, at time of the Technical Meeting from April 27 2018 in Lausanne, it was found that:

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the participants at FAI F2B contests.

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from others may have a demotivating effect on newcomers.

The delegates present (6) have therefore modified the proposal accordingly by removing the wording allowing the addition of bonus points to flight scores. The related voting was 6 for and 0 against. The revised version of the Concours d’Elégance F2B proposal was then submitted to the Plenary Meeting from April 28. The Delegates representing 37 countries have unanimously accepted the modified proposal. It will be set in force by January 1st. 2019.

For details, please check the minutes of the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting on pages 43 - 58:

www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/ciam_2018_plenary_minutes_final.pdf (http://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/ciam_2018_plenary_minutes_final.pdf)

rgds, Peter Germann
Thank you, Peter, for that summary. It serves to illustrate the FACT that a few people who can afford to get to Lausanne for the Technical Committee meeting held there can thwart the will of the entire F2 Technical Committee. This sort of thing is exactly why the world believes the FAI rules are a joke and a mess.

Regards,

Bill Lee
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 23, 2018, 12:39:58 PM
Thank you, Peter, for that summary. It serves to illustrate the FACT that a few people who can afford to get to Lausanne for the Technical Committee meeting held there can thwart the will of the entire F2 Technical Committee. This sort of thing is exactly why the world believes the FAI rules are a joke and a mess.

   I might have put it differently, but it is certainly beyond frustrating to the point that I more-or-less gave up on the effort, and there aren't a whole lot of things that I have just given up on, almost to a fault. I was also involved in Sxx (spacemodeling in FAI-speak) where it was even more blatant; basically, design the event rules around specific manufacturers and individual competitors, all Eastern Block, to effectively lock out anyone else. That was at least weaky justified by the fact that the majority of the Sxx participants were in fact from the Eastern Block even before the manipulation started. At this point you show up at a WC or world cup Sxx event, and for most of the performance events, you have never tested or even seen the engines you have to use before you get to the site, because they are illegal or not imported to the USA.

   I was also dismayed at one of the F2B rules group taking personal shots at Peter and invoking the USA as the culprit. One wonders how much of that goes on in the mysterious smoke-filled room in Lausanne, out of sight and with no pushback.

   Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 23, 2018, 03:45:55 PM

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the participants at FAI F2B contests.

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from others may have a demotivating effect on newcomers.


Two points rephrased

.   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the builders of the contest ready planes.

.   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from other is a good way to justify the 1st point.

In other words - follow the money.

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 04:07:24 PM
I honestly think it’s not really that sinister.  There isn’t enough money floating around in the whole sport combined to make that a serious proposition.  I DO think it may be good intentions run amuck.  Give everyone a good toy (without much effort) and more will play.  I think we know that has limited utility.  Be that as it may those at the very top of the game should take the training wheels off and play full bore.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on July 23, 2018, 05:02:47 PM
I honestly think it’s not really that sinister.  There isn’t enough money floating around in the whole sport combined to make that a serious proposition.  I DO think it may be good intentions run amuck.  Give everyone a good toy (without much effort) and more will play.  I think we know that has limited utility.  Be that as it may those at the very top of the game should take the training wheels off and play full bore.

Dave
I am on board with that!  Somehow flying something that someone else built is not anywhere as satisfying as flying your own - warts and all.  I don't even like to build something someone else designed - but I will.

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 05:52:31 PM
Of course, I don't remember this being such a hot topic issue when a US pilot won with said equipment.
Robby it has been accepted that one was sufficiently home built so as to be allowed to fly here at the Nats.  Five of the Chinese with them  seems to say something else.  Then Igor mentioned a high percentage of 'bought' airplanes in the competition.  The trend seems to going that direction which may be fine for most but the it seems to me the World Champs should reach a little higher.  I said before I can understand wishing to just buy the dream as long as it is allowed but should it be?

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:03:01 PM
Yes I know what you meant. 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:26:02 PM
Yes and it seems from what is being said that any effort to make a change may be a waste of time.  It surely will be true that others will disagree.  All that can be done is to campaign the issue and beat this old dog till it changes or bites me!  Before long we will go to the Worlds and you will just rent your Shark from the management like a pair of roller skates at the rink.  What is to prevent that?

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:44:01 PM
Yes you are correct.  We'd hope going through the rules process will yield the desired result of the majority.  It appears that has already failed from what Bill and Peter have said-the voice of the technical committee was ignored.  An attempt to at least reward BOM with a points system was asked for by those charged with such duties and some lone actors chose to ignore them.  What I am saying is that was not acceptable.  The overall group desire was for the change but that didn't happen.  All you can do is hit them in the face with it again and again.  You are (i think) suggesting some sort of poll to determine what the whole of sport wants.  Great! But not sure how you do that.  We don't do that here either.  It's like pulling teeth to get very much feedback on anything, except for a few very interested, + or - on the issue. 

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 23, 2018, 06:44:59 PM
Okay, here's a wild, way outside the box, radical idea: Who says that we have to accept the FAI as the governing body for model aviation? We could just start our own organization, make our own rules and pick our own Champion. Wait, we already have that, it's AMA, PAMPA, and the Nats... We could just declare our winner the World Stunt Champion.  H^^ S?P ;)

Bob Hunt
1978 F2B World Champion (not that it means anything these days...) 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:51:22 PM
Okay, here's a wild, way outside the box, radical idea: Who says that we have to accept the FAI as the governing body for model aviation? We could just start our own organization, make our own rules and pick our own Champion. Wait, we already have that, it's AMA, PAMPA, and the Nats... We could just declare our winner the World Stunt Champion.  H^^ S?P ;)

Bob Hunt
1978 F2B World Champion (not that it means anything these days...)
HERE HERE and....
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 23, 2018, 06:51:45 PM
You could certainly do that!  However, the FAI World Championships is the one with the history that we all care so much about.  So, that's the one that matters to me!
HERE HERE!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on July 23, 2018, 07:00:28 PM
Of course, I don't remember this being such a hot topic issue when a US pilot won with said equipment.

Touche, Robby!

Alas, the argument is still a valid one.  To put it simply, aero-modeling is a way different thing from buying an expensive balsa drone mit wires! (How about that!  French and German in one post! Don't know how to put the accent in touche though :'( )

Ted
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on July 24, 2018, 12:48:35 AM
Regarding the comments about the apparent mix-up on the finals results.  In an effort to get the results posted quickly, the ED essentially asked for a manual tabulation of the scores from the finals rounds.  The person performing that tabulation did not understand that the ranking of the 15 finalists is based on the two best of the three finalists rounds and included scores from some of the qualifying rounds.  Those totals distorted the rankings.  Finally, when the rankings were calculated using the correct procedures, using the computer programs that were developed for this championships, the correct rankings were established.

The ED soon realized the error, worked quickly to correct the problem and was very apologetic for the matter.

Keith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on July 24, 2018, 12:53:07 AM
Regarding the question about the types of power plants used for the F2B Championships, I do not have an accurate accounting, but I believe that there were no more than about 4 IC engines in the top 15, the rest being electric.  This ratio seems about the same for the total of 84 entrants

Keith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Bob Hunt on July 24, 2018, 05:11:03 AM
You could certainly do that!  However, the FAI World Championships is the one with the history that we all care so much about.  So, that's the one that matters to me!

Gee Rob, I would expect you of all people to get the sarcasm in my post. Did you actually think I was serious about splitting from FAI?

Dear old dad   
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 24, 2018, 09:37:33 AM
Okay, here's a wild, way outside the box, radical idea: Who says that we have to accept the FAI as the governing body for model aviation? We could just start our own organization, make our own rules and pick our own Champion.

   I don't know why you are making fun of it - that describes the founding of the FAI to a tee. A bunch of French aviation buffs decided to proclaim themselves the arbiters despite having never contributed anything of consequence to aviation, aside from being really really enthusiastic about it. The first successful and practical airplane in France was built in a bike shop in Dayton and was already 4 years old.

      Naturally, being French, they figured that only *they* could do it properly, and that it would only be official if *they* did it. People, for some reason (most likely that is was too trivial to care about one way or the other, while everyone else was *inventing the aviation industry and commercial aviation*) went along, here we are 100 years later.

    Don't get me wrong, the AMA is hardly any different, and hardly any different from the host organization, the NAA. Perhaps it is slightly more legitimate, having formed as a buffer/lobbying group for aviation with the government. There is no doubt that the formation was of and by *people actually involved in aviation* and model aviation, as opposed to the FAI, where their primary relationship  to aviation was thinking it was neat-o and figuring (with classic French arrogance and their abject cultural fear of not being perceived as the smartest people in any room*1), they should become the faceless bureaucrats that deem things official or not.

    All of these organizations are fundamentally *trivial* in nature, and the fact that we happen to care about a *trivial* function like administering model airplane contest rules and deeming them "official" or not doesn't really change anything.

    We compete to gain the respect and admiration of others, that can happen with or without sanction FAI, AMA, Northern California Control-Line Coalition, or the 3 other guys you fly with in a cow pasture. I can call next weekends flying session a "world championship", if Dave and Paul and Orestes and Bubba Hunt show up, who's to say otherwise, and why would we care if someone else sent a strongly-worded letter about it not being "official"?

    We are going to have a World Series in October, does anyone think the winner is going to care if it is not sanctioned by the rest of the "world"?

    These threads, for the most part, are hallmark examples of how easy it is to *lose perspective*. Yes, if we are going to go to a WC or any other contest, we should try our best to win (and I am sure everyone who has ever done it had done *exactly that*). Yes, we should get the rules and standards correct, and try to argue our points and get agreement *with other stunt fliers* about what the "right" standards should be. We should follow the processes available to get things the way we want, to the maximum extent possible. But having the sanction of self-appointed apparatchiks is entirely secondary and irrelevant, and if said apparatchiks are standing in the way, no matter where they come from (FAI, AMA, WAM, El Cerrito Flying Dons, whatever), they should be bypassed, ignored, or supplanted. 

   Winning against the best competitors is what makes it worth doing, not an FAI seal of approval.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Fredvon4 on July 24, 2018, 10:46:57 AM
What he said!

Winning against the best competitors is what makes it worth doing, not an FAI seal of approval.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ruslan Kurenkov on July 24, 2018, 03:38:11 PM
Hello
During the whole tournament, for 6 days, the organizers received full information about the schedule of the competitions and the results of the flights. On the first day there were official training flights for 10 minutes per pilot, for a team of 4 athletes - 40 minutes. After the official training flights that ended at 16:00 there were free flights on record. Next 4 days of tours, one performance per day on one of two laps. One asphalt, the other grassy. General estimates of all pilots and the general results of the tour were published 30 minutes after the last pilot's flight on the tour. Everything was absolutely clear and understandable. But when the final 3 round began, the situation with the publication of the results changed dramatically after the third round. Estimates were published only after 2 hours and only on the site. On the field where all the pilots were and waited for the results on paper and did not wait. Then these results were quickly removed from the site of the organizers.
The official closing of the Championship began.
At the time of closing, none of the 15 finalists of the athletes and the 3 finalists of the juniors had a common outcome. Each athlete knew only his own personal result.
None of the athletes could in principle in general file a protest since the closing ceremony of the Championship began without general results.
I stood beside the Italian National team and saw the expression of Marco Valera's face when he was invited to 2nd place. Before that, he was on the 1 st place.
None of the athletes with whom we communicated and did not understand what happened.
The athlete of our team found out that he is in 10th place only the day after the close.
Maybe we did not see something or heard something? Unfortunately, we do not know this.
If any of the athletes clarify for us the situation with the results?
I do not want to offend anyone!
But the fact is a fact.
Regards
RusLan Kurenkov
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Reptoid on July 25, 2018, 03:36:37 PM
   "I don't know why you are making fun of it - that describes the founding of the FAI to a tee. A bunch of French aviation buffs decided to proclaim themselves the arbiters despite having never contributed anything of consequence to aviation, aside from being really really enthusiastic about it. The first successful and practical airplane in France was built in a bike shop in Dayton and was already 4 years old."

      "Naturally, being French, they figured that only *they* could do it properly, and that it would only be official if *they* did it. People, for some reason (most likely that is was too trivial to care about one way or the other, while everyone else was *inventing the aviation industry and commercial aviation*) went along, here we are 100 years later. " 
    Brett
It's not quite correct to blame it all on the "French"

    "The FAI was founded at a conference held in Paris 12–14 October 1905, which was organised following a resolution passed by the Olympic Congress held in Brussels on 10 June 1905 calling for the creation of an Association "to regulate the sport of flying, ... the various aviation meetings and advance the science and sport of Aeronautics."[4] The conference was attended by representatives from 8 countries: Belgium (Aero Club Royal de Belgique, founded 1901), France (Aéro-Club de France, 1898), Germany (Deutscher Aero Club e.V.), Great Britain (Royal Aero Club, 1901), Italy (Aero Club d'Italia, 1904), Spain (Real Aero Club de España, 1905), Switzerland (Aero-Club der Schweiz, 1900) and the United States (Aero Club of America, 1905).

Source:     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration_A%C3%A9ronautique_Internationale

This topic comes up every two years and is bantered about and then nothing is done to improve the US results.

I fly mostly Combat in competition these days and have, on and off, for almost 60 years. The US (AMA) combat events are VASTLY different than F2D which is the official World (FAI) combat event. If none of the US combat pilots flew FAI combat for two years we would probably do a lot worse than the F2B team this year, do to the extreme differences in the events.
In order to avoid that, and in the interest of improving performance at the Worlds and promoting combat in general, a number of individuals and groups have stepped up and hosted full F2D rules combat events including at the Nats (Either double or triple elimination) during the year so that pilots/pit crews can fly in competition under the same criteria/rules they will see at the team trials or the worlds. Results this year in Landres; Junior World Champion and USA Team Podium (3rd)
F2B is seemingly the only FAI event not flown at the Nationals or at all during the year in the US for that matter. I really don't understand why you wouldn't want to fly the event at all. You can use the same equipment you use for AMA and/or use an ARF, an ARC,  or a RTF airplane. You can still retain all the AMA rules events as they are.
If the combat community would have refused to fly F2D and insisted on having only AMA combat events with a  BOM rule it would have been completely dead years ago. Instead it has had a strong resurgence, and F2D spec aircraft are by far the most popular aircraft in use.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 25, 2018, 03:46:11 PM
This topic comes up every two years and is bantered about and then nothing is done to improve the US results.

    "Nothing is done?" Really?

      Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Reptoid on July 25, 2018, 04:41:40 PM
    "Nothing is done?" Really?

      Brett
By "nothing is done" I was referring to specific changes aimed at improving the performance of our teams at International events like the topics discussed in this thread. I guess if I were looking for a silver bullet to improve the US performance in general I would say competitors need to fly under the exact rules of F2B more often. As for the "Tight Corner" debate, I think you said it best, both sets of rules as worded should reward the tightest corners with the highest scores; given that the rest of the maneuver is equal.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 25, 2018, 09:35:54 PM
By "nothing is done" I was referring to specific changes aimed at improving the performance of our teams at International events like the topics discussed in this thread. I guess if I were looking for a silver bullet to improve the US performance in general I would say competitors need to fly under the exact rules of F2B more often. As for the "Tight Corner" debate, I think you said it best, both sets of rules as worded should reward the tightest corners with the highest scores; given that the rest of the maneuver is equal.

    Given that the rules *are effectively identical* in terms of the way the pattern is performed, it's hard to see how that alone would make any difference. This is fundamentally different from F2D, where the equipment and techniques are in some ways diametrically opposed to AMA. I seem to recall a lot of complaining among Fast fliers about not having a "kill" in FAI, and that it caused people a lot of trouble. And, not to point the fingers, AMA combat was not exactly in robust good health before FAI combat took off.

    What appears to be different, from a functional standpoint that is under the control of the pilots, is exactly what Paul pointed out, the cornering has been weighted more in the last few WC. I have to believe that this was partly a result of our own previous efforts to correct earlier perceived flaws in the emphasis. But not entirely - it has been clear to me for at least most of the teens, even from afar, that just like Paul put a permanent end to swoopy corners and vague definition that Aldrich would have approved of in National competition, Igor put an end to the "5 foot is everything and ignore the corners that are too soft to even detect" in FAI. Possibly by taking the original gripe about corners to its ultimate end, possibly by wanting to do it and show everyone how it should be done, etc. It takes the right person at the right place and time to do that.

    But I think there are other factors at play in the results from various WCs, not just this one, and those may not be something anyone can directly do anything about, and may also be otherwise very difficult to overcome.

   Again, I think this garment-rending over the results is a bit over the top. It's sensible to look at trying to do better, and that's the entire point of the event no matter where you are flying or what your end goal might be. But that doesn't mean we have to make massive changes to systems and processes we think are otherwise working,  in a few days, and not necessarily based on what non-participants (including me at this point) might perceive the problem to be.
 
   In the same vein, if the results do not come out the way you want, the only way to make them different it to fly better and *make* them give you your due. That's also a universal truth of stunt.

     Brett

p.s. This doesn't bear on the content, but if you look at the signatories and the dates, it is nearly certain that *no one involved with forming the FAI had seen a heavier-than-air craft actually fly*, the one exception, remotely possible, being the US representative. At the time of formation, the French considered themselves the leaders in aviation (and to the rudimentary understanding at the time, everyone else involved probably agreed), occasionally taking barely-controlled low-altitude hops and in no way grasping the necessary techniques for practical flying. That's *why* they took it upon themselves to form the FAI. It's right in the name, it would be called the IAF instead of FAI had the people who knew what they were doing formed it.

   BTW, irritation at the existence and actions of the FAI as a group *does not extend to our stunt flying colleagues in the rest of the world*, including the judges. I have been involved with the F2B working group since shortly after its formation, and based on the other respondents, one of the more active participants. International stunt fliers are generally agree on what should be done and how it should be done, including our friends from France. In fact, Serge Delebarde came up with what I consider the most sarcastic and biting comment I have ever heard about FAI, almost Werwage-esque, and its not even his primary language. The problem is with the FAI administration, and how no matter how well everyone agrees on the right path forward, it doesn't matter, it can get torpedoed by the system at any point and no recourse. Bill Lee said it best the other day. The point being is that there isn't a lot of disagreement compared among the people who have a stake in it and know what they are doing.

   
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 25, 2018, 10:22:43 PM
A US competitor was the world champion in 2016.  And the other thing that seems to be left out...the rest of the world is pretty damn good.  Igor is the best I've ever seen.

  Exactly. One thing doesn't go the way we want and in days, we are panicking over it. Trying to do better is always the point, but this hardly constitutes an emergency, when the next contest is 2 years away,

   Don't say stuff like that about Igor, it might go to his head. And, you know, I am standing right over here in earshot, come on, don't you care about other people's feelings? What, did you grow up in New Jersey or something?

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on July 25, 2018, 10:40:18 PM

"This topic comes up every two years and is bantered about and then nothing is done to improve the US results."

In order to avoid that, and in the interest of improving performance at the Worlds and promoting combat in general, a number of individuals and groups have stepped up and hosted full F2D rules combat events including at the Nats (Either double or triple elimination) during the year so that pilots/pit crews can fly in competition under the same criteria/rules they will see at the team trials or the worlds. Results this year in Landres; Junior World Champion and USA Team Podium (3rd)

F2B is seemingly the only FAI event not flown at the Nationals or at all during the year in the US for that matter. I really don't understand why you wouldn't want to fly the event at all. You can use the same equipment you use for AMA and/or use an ARF, an ARC,  or a RTF airplane. You can still retain all the AMA rules events as they are.

If the combat community would have refused to fly F2D and insisted on having only AMA combat events with a  BOM rule it would have been completely dead years ago. Instead it has had a strong resurgence, and F2D spec aircraft are by far the most popular aircraft in use.


You are getting a few facts turned around that twist the reality of what has happened over the years.  Yes, the the F2D combat team made a respectable showing this year with the Junior champion and the team placing 3rd.  This is one of the best showing of our F2D team for several years even though F2D events have been held held here throughout the US for a long period of time.  There is no question that our F2D teams have performed well over the years having at least 2 senior champions and several good team placings. 

However, since the FAI took on the current format for world Championships, starting in 1960, no country can match the record of the United States F2B teams in any modeling category in individual and team top placings.  (That is a period spanning 58 years.)   Furthermore, since the FAI adopted the AMA pattern for the F2B event in 1960, there has been and still is little difference between the FAI F2B event and our AMA Precision Aerobatics event.  Some procedures together with maneuver descriptions are slightly different and the F2B event incorporates K factors in their scoring.  However, airplanes and pilots that are competitive under one set of rules will be just as competitive in the other. 

The BOM rule we have for the AMA PA event is really a non issue.  It only applies to our Nationals.  In almost every other contest here in the US, the BOM is not required to compete, though appearance points are not awarded to non BOM models.  Some contests in some areas do not enforce the BOM rule and forego appearance points, just like F2B.  (Besides, at most contests, the appearance points for BOM models make very little difference in the placings of individuals in the skill classes in the Intermediate to Advanced categories.)  Even now, there are serious considerations in certain areas in Europe to adopt some sort of a BOM requirement for F2B.  A look at the field of aircraft in Landres shows a preponderance and a dominance of non BOM models which is making some wonder if a BOM requirement should be adopted.  (I am not speaking for all F2B competitors, but there is some discussion over there on the matter.)

Yes, the only F2B contest we have in the US is the Team Trials held every two years where F2B scoring/K factors are used.  But that fact does not alter anything that could or should be done to improve the performance of our F2B teams.  This year, our team placed 5th overall among 31 teams, or perhaps a better statement would be 5th overall among the 20 teams with 3 pilots.  And, if you include Orestes' placing instead of our 3rd placing team member, our team would have placed 3rd.  Not bad following the previous world championships held in Australia where our F2B was the team champion and one of those members was the World Champion.

The option to hold an F2B event here in the states is always available.  To my knowledge, no contest organizers have chosen that option except for our Team Trials.

If the argument comes to the point that the K-factor scoring in F2B emphasizes that we need to recognize more here in the states the importance of the high K-factor maneuvers (square loops, the square eights, the triangles, and the hourglass).  This matter really points out that the judges need to understand that our AMA PA rules emphasize the same things that the F2B rules do.  The guides for both AMA PA and F2B emphasize that judges should focus their attention on four major aspects of the stunt pattern:  SHAPE, SIZE, INTERSECTIONS, BOTTOMS  These guides do not include corners in that list.  Corners become a subset of Shapes.  The sharper the corner/turns in the squares and triangles and hourglass, the better the shape for which a better score is deserved.  There are a handful of pilots in this country that are taking this to the level seen from the top flyers in Landres.  It is only a matter of time that we see more pilots here with the flying skills to acquire the equipment/technology that is becoming more readily available that can be flown to match the emphasis given to Shapes without the need to resort to K-factors.

Besides, we do not need the rest of the world to tell us what the rules should be for our AMA PA event. 

Keith


Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on July 25, 2018, 11:31:13 PM
Keith our challenge in AMA nationals is to include the corner in judging training
No additional points are currently given for tight corners

The 2017 Nat’s judged by FAI judges may have rendered different outcom
Paul,Orestes and  m hiki would of placed higher
In previous Nat’s 1990’s the placing definetly would be different.

Our challenge is that FAI as currently judged has an emphasis on very hard corner and 4’ bottoms
Our AMA has an emphasis on size,shape and intersection  bottoms can vary through out a flight

AMA and FAI are truly different contest based on judging emphasis.
This difference can’t be trained for  by pilots or judges once every two years
It is what it is

FAI should reward in some fashion a builder flyer. Not full BOM but something
Until that accurs SHARKS RULE
jose modesto

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Reptoid on July 26, 2018, 02:37:38 AM
You are getting a few facts turned around that twist the reality of what has happened over the years.  Yes, the the F2D combat team made a respectable showing this year with the Junior champion and the team placing 3rd.  This is one of the best showing of our F2D team for several years even though F2D events have been held held here throughout the US for a long period of time.  There is no question that our F2D teams have performed well over the years having at least 2 senior champions and several good team placings. 

However, since the FAI took on the current format for world Championships, starting in 1960, no country can match the record of the United States F2B teams in any modeling category in individual and team top placings.  (That is a period spanning 58 years.)   Furthermore, since the FAI adopted the AMA pattern for the F2B event in 1960, there has been and still is little difference between the FAI F2B event and our AMA Precision Aerobatics event.  Some procedures together with maneuver descriptions are slightly different and the F2B event incorporates K factors in their scoring.  However, airplanes and pilots that are competitive under one set of rules will be just as competitive in the other. 

The BOM rule we have for the AMA PA event is really a non issue.  It only applies to our Nationals.  In almost every other contest here in the US, the BOM is not required to compete, though appearance points are not awarded to non BOM models.  Some contests in some areas do not enforce the BOM rule and forego appearance points, just like F2B.  (Besides, at most contests, the appearance points for BOM models make very little difference in the placings of individuals in the skill classes in the Intermediate to Advanced categories.)  Even now, there are serious considerations in certain areas in Europe to adopt some sort of a BOM requirement for F2B.  A look at the field of aircraft in Landres shows a preponderance and a dominance of non BOM models which is making some wonder if a BOM requirement should be adopted.  (I am not speaking for all F2B competitors, but there is some discussion over there on the matter.)

Yes, the only F2B contest we have in the US is the Team Trials held every two years where F2B scoring/K factors are used.  But that fact does not alter anything that could or should be done to improve the performance of our F2B teams.  This year, our team placed 5th overall among 31 teams, or perhaps a better statement would be 5th overall among the 20 teams with 3 pilots.  And, if you include Orestes' placing instead of our 3rd placing team member, our team would have placed 3rd.  Not bad following the previous world championships held in Australia where our F2B was the team champion and one of those members was the World Champion.

The option to hold an F2B event here in the states is always available.  To my knowledge, no contest organizers have chosen that option except for our Team Trials.

If the argument comes to the point that the K-factor scoring in F2B emphasizes that we need to recognize more here in the states the importance of the high K-factor maneuvers (square loops, the square eights, the triangles, and the hourglass).  This matter really points out that the judges need to understand that our AMA PA rules emphasize the same things that the F2B rules do.  The guides for both AMA PA and F2B emphasize that judges should focus their attention on four major aspects of the stunt pattern:  SHAPE, SIZE, INTERSECTIONS, BOTTOMS  These guides do not include corners in that list.  Corners become a subset of Shapes.  The sharper the corner/turns in the squares and triangles and hourglass, the better the shape for which a better score is deserved.  There are a handful of pilots in this country that are taking this to the level seen from the top flyers in Landres.  It is only a matter of time that we see more pilots here with the flying skills to acquire the equipment/technology that is becoming more readily available that can be flown to match the emphasis given to Shapes without the need to resort to K-factors.

Besides, we do not need the rest of the world to tell us what the rules should be for our AMA PA event. 

Keith
Not sure which Facts I got twisted around but I wasn't trying to list the history of F2D. Just pointing out a trend.

Currently there are 6 Double or Triple elimination 2 day F2D contests during the year which is an all time high and several more than a few years ago. These draw contestants from all over the US along with several international competitors. Rylans dad, Randy Ritch of Ritches Brew sponsored and organized the one in Houston, TX (which I attended) a month before the Worlds as a Tune-up for the Team.  All the team members were there except Mark Rudner who is currently residing in Denmark (and he won a Euro World Cup a couple months prior).  Two weeks later was a two day double elim in Kansas City.
     This year was the first podium finish for the US F2D team since 2002 When Mike Willcox was World Champion. In 1982 Tom Fluker was World Champion and this Year Rylan Ritch won two medals, Junior World Champion and Third F2D Team.

I'm not advocating changing anything since I don't fly Stunt competitively (I do fly the pattern a couple times every Friday morning though). It just sounded to me like some sour grapes over the judging and the results in France. I still believe if one is serious about winning the Worlds, it would be best to fly the exact same rules, including K factor and all the nuances more than once a year.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on July 26, 2018, 10:28:48 AM
Not sure which Facts I got twisted around but I wasn't trying to list the history of F2D. Just pointing out a trend.

Currently there are 6 Double or Triple elimination 2 day F2D contests during the year which is an all time high and several more than a few years ago. These draw contestants from all over the US along with several international competitors. Rylans dad, Randy Ritch of Ritches Brew sponsored and organized the one in Houston, TX (which I attended) a month before the Worlds as a Tune-up for the Team.  All the team members were there except Mark Rudner who is currently residing in Denmark (and he won a Euro World Cup a couple months prior).  Two weeks later was a two day double elim in Kansas City.
     This year was the first podium finish for the US F2D team since 2002 When Mike Willcox was World Champion. In 1982 Tom Fluker was World Champion and this Year Rylan Ritch won two medals, Junior World Champion and Third F2D Team.

I'm not advocating changing anything since I don't fly Stunt competitively (I do fly the pattern a couple times every Friday morning though). It just sounded to me like some sour grapes over the judging and the results in France. I still believe if one is serious about winning the Worlds, it would be best to fly the exact same rules, including K factor and all the nuances more than once a year.

You are suggesting that there is something wrong with our process of selecting our F2B teams.  Yet we have flown our AMA PA rules since before the FAI adopted our pattern.  Our teams still have the best record over the years from the earlier periods of F2B competition to the recent past of 10 to 15 years where some form of K-factor scoring has always been used.  I am only suggesting that there is nothing wrong with our program.  When our top fliers go to our Team Trials, they know that they are being judged with the FAI K-factors.  These top fliers can adjust their patterns accordingly and their record in world class competition proves it.

I mentioned in my previous post the successes our combat teams have had in the past.  I was in Sweden in 82 and watched Tommy Fluker beat the Russian in a rematch.  I was there when Mike Wilcox won and led the US team to win.  I was in Landres this month but did not get to watch any of the US combat team matches.  Congratulations to Rylan Ritch and the entire US F2D team for their success.  To win anything at the World Championships in F2D competition is an awesome achievement as it is in any of the other three FAI CL world competitions.

I think that the emphasis on shapes (including corners) is being shown to us by our top fliers with our AMA PA scoring system and judges guide.  (Our judges guide is a direct lift from an earlier version of the F2B judges guide.)  David, Paul, Brett, Howard, Derek, Orestes, Chris, Richard, Joe, Kenny and others are showing the way.  (Apologies to other deserving fliers not named here.)   I will suggest that our judges need to pay more attention to the judges guide which emphasizes all aspects of the pattern - SIZE, INTERSECTIONS, BOTTOMS, SHAPE.  The top fliers in Landres not only had shapes (meaning shapes with sharp corners) with outstanding bottoms but also had good sizes.  Attention to these factors was more apparent to me across the board than any of the other seven World Championships I have attended.  For those who think it necessary for us to use FAI scoring, they are perfectly welcome to organize such contests.  There is nothing to keep them from doing so.  Meanwhile, I think our teams will continue to do well.

Also, my respect to the F2B judges this year.  60 flights on that fourth day!

Keith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on July 26, 2018, 01:17:35 PM
Keith. No disrespect to our team.
This is not about the rules it’s about the judges emphasis.
Our rules their  rules are fine. 
Wen the new guys saw the corners that were being flown by the top pilots,they were surprised. They had never seen planes fly the pattern that aggressively with size shape and intersections.

The 2017 team trials was an aberration as the finals were flown in extreme weather conditions.

The top pilots at the worlds flew like a Paul Walker and Orrstes. (FAI Orestes) very tight corners with 4’bottoms  excellent shapes

In our AMA nationals as currently judged a tight corner with excellent shapes can be beaten by a smooth accurate pattern with higher bottoms and not as tight a corner,

In FAI judging,the smoth pattern with softer corners,excellent shape,size and intersections would not beat
A pattern flown the same with sharper corners. Fact.
 Our best pilot C Rud do to equipment limitations was forced to fly a very accurate Size,Shspe and intersection pattern to 7th place  with a plane that could corner he gets a medal

The question is valid with our current AMA Judging were corners are last  SHAPE,SIZE,INTERSECTIONS CORNERS
For FAI judging were the order is CORNER,SHAPE,SIZE AND INTERSECTIONS
our emphasis must change for future team selection.

You and I had many candid conversation at the worlds which do to political correctness we can’t have in public.
Jose  modesto




Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 26, 2018, 04:19:54 PM
Also, my respect to the F2B judges this year.  60 flights on that fourth day!

   That is at least somewhat related to the rest of the conversation, of course. If you are getting tired, particularly on the 4th day with this sort of schedule, your tendency is likely focus on one thing rather than maintaining a balance and some perspective. I probably haven't done 60 flights, but I have probably done 50+ on occasion (in the blistering 100 degree Central Valley Sun) and you can almost get something like "highway hypnosis" after a while, where the flights all start looking alike and you are doing things like forgetting where they are in the pattern, what maneuver comes next, etc. To maintain concentration, it's very easy to decide or unconsciously to focus on *one thing*, just because that's all you can manage.

   The issue of judge fatigue is one that the FAI has steadfastly disregarded. The two-circle format probably reduces the effects of fatigue on the results, but doesn't make the judge's lives a lot easier. I think it is partly due to the reluctance to hire/acquire enough judges to do better than this, and partly because the obvious solution (4 circles) might make the contest take too long, since you don't usually have enough space to do them in parallel. Rounds should last about 3 hours at most, and it's unreasonable to ask for more than two rounds a day.

   When we had more than 100 entrants, it strained even the NATs arrangement to the limits and people were out tabulating until darn near dark during qualifying. Several notables and I had a discussion about what we would do if we had that on a regular basis - and the solution was ugly but obvious. You needed to have a pre-qualifying contest earlier in the week, or even the week or month before,  take about 20 each from each of 4 circles, and then those 80 went to conventional qualifying. We didn't routinely get that but for a while there in the mid-00's we were pushing the limits of reasonable. Seems like that's not going to be a problem (if anyone is inclined, please start another thread to discuss that one...) for the NATs, but it's pretty much always going to be that way for the WC. It needs to be considered because even with two circles, it's bordering on unreasonable.

     Brett

   
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 26, 2018, 04:44:24 PM
   That is at least somewhat related to the rest of the conversation, of course. If you are getting tired, particularly on the 4th day with this sort of schedule, your tendency is likely focus on one thing rather than maintaining a balance and some perspective. I probably haven't done 60 flights, but I have probably done 50+ on occasion (in the blistering 100 degree Central Valley Sun) and you can almost get something like "highway hypnosis" after a while, where the flights all start looking alike and you are doing things like forgetting where they are in the pattern, what maneuver comes next, etc. To maintain concentration, it's very easy to decide or unconsciously to focus on *one thing*, just because that's all you can manage.

   The issue of judge fatigue is one that the FAI has steadfastly disregarded. The two-circle format probably reduces the effects of fatigue on the results, but doesn't make the judge's lives a lot easier. I think it is partly due to the reluctance to hire/acquire enough judges to do better than this, and partly because the obvious solution (4 circles) might make the contest take too long, since you don't usually have enough space to do them in parallel. Rounds should last about 3 hours at most, and it's unreasonable to ask for more than two rounds a day.

   When we had more than 100 entrants, it strained even the NATs arrangement to the limits and people were out tabulating until darn near dark during qualifying. Several notables and I had a discussion about what we would do if we had that on a regular basis - and the solution was ugly but obvious. You needed to have a pre-qualifying contest earlier in the week, or even the week or month before,  take about 20 each from each of 4 circles, and then those 80 went to conventional qualifying. We didn't routinely get that but for a while there in the mid-00's we were pushing the limits of reasonable. Seems like that's not going to be a problem (if anyone is inclined, please start another thread to discuss that one...) for the NATs, but it's pretty much always going to be that way for the WC. It needs to be considered because even with two circles, it's bordering on unreasonable.

     Brett

 

Okay, I'll bite. Look for a new thread soon.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on July 26, 2018, 08:47:11 PM
A story about judging fatigue
The just completed world championship during a break on the last qualifying day,a friend was allowed to sit in the tabulating tent.
 Two judges were complaining of to many flyghts. One said I can’t continue,I can’t see anymore  they all look the same. The sun is in my eyes,I’m tired.
I can’t continue.
The next round was the first of the finals..
The judges were overworked with the format used at the worlds.
It seems that F2b is the step child,at the worlds
On a side note. Team race drew a crowd like I have never seen. I dint realize how popular that event is in Europe.
Jose modesto
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Peter Germann on July 27, 2018, 03:12:41 AM
      The issue of judge fatigue is one that the FAI has steadfastly disregarded.

Steadfast?:

FAI Sporting Code 2018 Class F2B CL Aerobatics Page 11  Judging  4.2.11.

l) All contest organisers shall arrange at least one judges’ meal break per contest day. If the judging panel/s request it, extra time shall also be scheduled for additional judges' breaks (for example breaks of approximately 10 minutes duration at approximately 2 hourly intervals throughout each round).

m) In any contest, no judge shall be scheduled to judge more than 50 contest flights or perform a total of more than 10 hours of judging duty (whichever is the longer) within any single contest day. This time shall include the above judges’ calibration flight(s) but does not include the breaks.

Peter
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 27, 2018, 10:34:38 AM
m) In any contest, no judge shall be scheduled to judge more than 50 contest flights or perform a total of more than 10 hours of judging duty (whichever is the longer) within any single contest day. This time shall include the above judges’ calibration flight(s) but does not include the breaks.

Peter

    Both of those are abusive, if adhered to - but, if the limit is 50, why were there 60, as Keith notes? Note also Jose's point, where the judges said they couldn't go on, or that they were fatigued to the point of "all looking the same", which is what I had exactly what I was having trouble with after I did something like 55 on several occasions, and I assure you the problem was evident long before the last few flights.

    To avoid this issue, you need to keep the length of a round (defined for these purposes as a discrete group whose scores are only compared to others in the group) to something less that 4 hours, and preferably around 3. If you adhere to the fixed 10-minutes slots, that's *18* flights - rather than 50ish. But, you shouldn't adhere to the 10 minutes fixed slots, either. Most fliers at this level will not need the 10 minutes, let them go as fast as they can manage it. Leave them the full working time if necessary, but discourage "tactical" use of the time, if they are not having a problem, they should be expected to go as soon as the previous pilot leaves, or move their airplane on while the previous flier is moving off. At our NATs, even with the 8-minute flight time, we have sometimes gone at fast at 7:30 a flight with the most experienced competitors, for several hours. 3 hours, that's 24 flights. Or roughly 1/4 a typical WC field.

     We manage this year after year, everyone cooperates because they have all judged themselves and they know that it is in the interest of the judges, and in their own interest, to keep the line moving. Anybody plays games, they get the message *very quickly*, and only in egregious cases does the allowed working time (which is about 11 minutes in AMA) even considered and very rarely is someone informed they are "on the clock".

   Curiously, the 1/4 just keeps coming up in this discussion - we are set to accommodate about 100 people, any more, and we start having issues. It means you need *4* groups/circles, not just 2, unless you want to spread out the qualifying over 4 days instead of 2. I note that while spreading it out is always dismissed because it "takes too long"  - but apparently there is usually plenty of time to do an entire World Cup ahead of time at the same site with the same people.

     We do 2 circles at our Team Trials, just exactly like the WC - except the most I can ever recall is about 20 entrants, not 100.

   That, Peter, is what the FAI brain trust has steadfastly disregarded with regard to this issue. 2 circles is better than one in only one regard - the round only goes for one day, so you only get the ballooning and weather variation associated with 8-10 hours, not *36*. We manage to come up with the necessary resources every year. Warren and Shareen had agreement for more than a year to do exactly the same thing at the 2004 WC - which was torpedoed by the usual FAI "forces unknown" a few months before the contest.  Nous ne pouvons pas laisser les Américains simplistes et arriérés nous montrer, n'est-ce pas?

    We made this argument long ago when Igor was running the message board, very carefully with examples, analysis, etc. As soon as it was noted that we had been *doing it for 40 years* at the NATs, then, people crawled out of the woodwork to come up with objections. The resulting *compromise* is what we wound up with, and ended up with the situation Keith and Jose described above.

   It also tends to explain why the WC judging has tended, over many decades, to home in on one aspect of a flight (formerly 5' bottoms, and now tight corner) and arguably not give an assessment of a variety of factors. When you are tired, your tendency is to to try to keep your focus on *something*, and because you are tired it cannot be *everything*.

   This is a clear example of how best practices are not even seriously considered and certainly there seems to be no movement to analyze the problems we find WC after WC and solve them. Every year, we examine what we are doing and make changes that seem to drive the situation to a more fair and equitable result and a more even chance for everyone involved. I don't see anything like that happening in the FAI - in fact, we had a series of suggested changes like getting rid of half the maneuvers in order to make it, er, something, maybe "spectator-friendly" that everyone across the world disagreed with, a majority opinion to include appearance point to keep it from turning into a purely buy-and-fly operation (that, as a completely unexpected side effect, making the commercial exploitation of the event by a few chosen manufacturers less likely and less lucrative) that was again torpedo by the mysterious forces unknown.

    This is why Bill was upset the other day and this is why Derek and I finally got fed up with it about a year ago. Just to my pserspective, I don't see the FAI (as a group) making the sorts of assessments and changes to practices or rules that are geared to improve the fairness or accuracy that we do on a regular basis. Again, if it was *just* the international stunt fliers, we wouldn't have a problem, if it was just the F2B working group, we wouldn't have a problem. But as is abundantly clear from both the results of the "proposals"  - which are at best *merely suggestions to be reworked by the same "forces unknown" with unknown qualifications or motivations*, and the actuality (Serge's comment about "taking the checks and putting "F2B Circle" on a picture of a potato field", to paraphrase), and again, driving the judges far beyond their capability to maintain a ridiculous "compromise" situation intended to ensure that it will always be possible to have it in a days driving distance of Western Europe.

   We know EXACTLY HOW TO DEAL WITH ALL THESE PROBLEMS, but to do so, we need to make changes to FAI processes. They are time-proven in real contests for decades, it's not an experiment and it addresses exactly the problems we have had for years. These changes do not selectively benefit *anyone* or *any group*, in fact, they benefit everyone by *making the contest more fair* and *leveling the playing field for all competitors*. And incidentally, not killing the most important people involved in operating it.

  I think the resistance to this effort, on the other hand, seems largely about people in Western Europe trying to ensure that they maintain control over *their* organization. In the USA, we call this "The Good Ole Boy network" and it is the chief point of controversy we have had over the years, the end goal being to root out and remove anything like it. I see no movement on this front, far from it, it is maintained at the expense of everything else.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Peter Germann on July 28, 2018, 03:48:49 AM
Thank you, Brett

May I suggest that you open a related topic on the F2B Working Group Forum?

rgds. Peter
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 28, 2018, 06:41:23 AM
    Both of those are abusive, if adhered to - but, if the limit is 50, why were there 60, as Keith notes? Note also Jose's point, where the judges said they couldn't go on, or that they were fatigued to the point of "all looking the same", which is what I had exactly what I was having trouble with after I did something like 55 on several occasions, and I assure you the problem was evident long before the last few flights.

    To avoid this issue, you need to keep the length of a round (defined for these purposes as a discrete group whose scores are only compared to others in the group) to something less that 4 hours, and preferably around 3. If you adhere to the fixed 10-minutes slots, that's *18* flights - rather than 50ish. But, you shouldn't adhere to the 10 minutes fixed slots, either. Most fliers at this level will not need the 10 minutes, let them go as fast as they can manage it. Leave them the full working time if necessary, but discourage "tactical" use of the time, if they are not having a problem, they should be expected to go as soon as the previous pilot leaves, or move their airplane on while the previous flier is moving off. At our NATs, even with the 8-minute flight time, we have sometimes gone at fast at 7:30 a flight with the most experienced competitors, for several hours. 3 hours, that's 24 flights. Or roughly 1/4 a typical WC field.

     We manage this year after year, everyone cooperates because they have all judged themselves and they know that it is in the interest of the judges, and in their own interest, to keep the line moving. Anybody plays games, they get the message *very quickly*, and only in egregious cases does the allowed working time (which is about 11 minutes in AMA) even considered and very rarely is someone informed they are "on the clock".

   Curiously, the 1/4 just keeps coming up in this discussion - we are set to accommodate about 100 people, any more, and we start having issues. It means you need *4* groups/circles, not just 2, unless you want to spread out the qualifying over 4 days instead of 2. I note that while spreading it out is always dismissed because it "takes too long"  - but apparently there is usually plenty of time to do an entire World Cup ahead of time at the same site with the same people.

     We do 2 circles at our Team Trials, just exactly like the WC - except the most I can ever recall is about 20 entrants, not 100.

   That, Peter, is what the FAI brain trust has steadfastly disregarded with regard to this issue. 2 circles is better than one in only one regard - the round only goes for one day, so you only get the ballooning and weather variation associated with 8-10 hours, not *36*. We manage to come up with the necessary resources every year. Warren and Shareen had agreement for more than a year to do exactly the same thing at the 2004 WC - which was torpedoed by the usual FAI "forces unknown" a few months before the contest.  Nous ne pouvons pas laisser les Américains simplistes et arriérés nous montrer, n'est-ce pas?

    We made this argument long ago when Igor was running the message board, very carefully with examples, analysis, etc. As soon as it was noted that we had been *doing it for 40 years* at the NATs, then, people crawled out of the woodwork to come up with objections. The resulting *compromise* is what we wound up with, and ended up with the situation Keith and Jose described above.

   It also tends to explain why the WC judging has tended, over many decades, to home in on one aspect of a flight (formerly 5' bottoms, and now tight corner) and arguably not give an assessment of a variety of factors. When you are tired, your tendency is to to try to keep your focus on *something*, and because you are tired it cannot be *everything*.

   This is a clear example of how best practices are not even seriously considered and certainly there seems to be no movement to analyze the problems we find WC after WC and solve them. Every year, we examine what we are doing and make changes that seem to drive the situation to a more fair and equitable result and a more even chance for everyone involved. I don't see anything like that happening in the FAI - in fact, we had a series of suggested changes like getting rid of half the maneuvers in order to make it, er, something, maybe "spectator-friendly" that everyone across the world disagreed with, a majority opinion to include appearance point to keep it from turning into a purely buy-and-fly operation (that, as a completely unexpected side effect, making the commercial exploitation of the event by a few chosen manufacturers less likely and less lucrative) that was again torpedo by the mysterious forces unknown.

    This is why Bill was upset the other day and this is why Derek and I finally got fed up with it about a year ago. Just to my pserspective, I don't see the FAI (as a group) making the sorts of assessments and changes to practices or rules that are geared to improve the fairness or accuracy that we do on a regular basis. Again, if it was *just* the international stunt fliers, we wouldn't have a problem, if it was just the F2B working group, we wouldn't have a problem. But as is abundantly clear from both the results of the "proposals"  - which are at best *merely suggestions to be reworked by the same "forces unknown" with unknown qualifications or motivations*, and the actuality (Serge's comment about "taking the checks and putting "F2B Circle" on a picture of a potato field", to paraphrase), and again, driving the judges far beyond their capability to maintain a ridiculous "compromise" situation intended to ensure that it will always be possible to have it in a days driving distance of Western Europe.

   We know EXACTLY HOW TO DEAL WITH ALL THESE PROBLEMS, but to do so, we need to make changes to FAI processes. They are time-proven in real contests for decades, it's not an experiment and it addresses exactly the problems we have had for years. These changes do not selectively benefit *anyone* or *any group*, in fact, they benefit everyone by *making the contest more fair* and *leveling the playing field for all competitors*. And incidentally, not killing the most important people involved in operating it.

  I think the resistance to this effort, on the other hand, seems largely about people in Western Europe trying to ensure that they maintain control over *their* organization. In the USA, we call this "The Good Ole Boy network" and it is the chief point of controversy we have had over the years, the end goal being to root out and remove anything like it. I see no movement on this front, far from it, it is maintained at the expense of everything else.

     Brett

Bingo!

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: pmackenzie on July 28, 2018, 08:02:40 AM
   
   Curiously, the 1/4 just keeps coming up in this discussion - we are set to accommodate about 100 people, any more, and we start having issues. It means you need *4* groups/circles, not just 2, unless you want to spread out the qualifying over 4 days instead of 2. I note that while spreading it out is always dismissed because it "takes too long"  - but apparently there is usually plenty of time to do an entire World Cup ahead of time at the same site with the same people.

FWIW, qualifying did take place over 4 days, same in Perth and Poland.

There was no pre-contest this time. The one in Perth had a limit to the number of entries, not sure if that was the case in Poland.

There was a World cup the weekend before the W/C, but it was in Paris.

Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on July 28, 2018, 08:57:36 AM
A story about judging fatigue
The just completed world championship during a break on the last qualifying day,a friend was allowed to sit in the tabulating tent.
 Two judges were complaining of to many flyghts. One said I can’t continue,I can’t see anymore  they all look the same. The sun is in my eyes,I’m tired.
I can’t continue.
The next round was the first of the finals..
The judges were overworked with the format used at the worlds.
It seems that F2b is the step child,at the worlds
On a side note. Team race drew a crowd like I have never seen. I dint realize how popular that event is in Europe.
Jose modesto

That is insane and should never ever be the case in any event of this size.  That is just stupid.
I judged one nats with a low turnout and I was tired by the end of my duties.  I can’t imagine what these guys/gals had to endure for 60 flights. It's no wonder corner was the move of the day.

I saw some video here and there of practice and the corner may have been there but alot of other things weren't.  You know as soon as we get all these blinding corners going to the WCs the emphasis will shift to something else, it always does.  Used to be 5'.

I read above what BB wrote about the contest format and flow. Our US nats flows like water out of pitcher.  It is so smooth every time.  If there is an attempt the flier in waiting hops right on and it just keeps rolling.  Waiting full 10 minutes for each flier no matter what is in INSANE waste of time and energy.  The longer the judges are blasted by the sun even just standing there the more energy and focus they lose. 

If the goal of the WC is to choose the best pilot IN THE WORLD then format has to be setup to benefit the judges and the helpers in the best possible way.  That is giving them the least amount of exposure and working small groups of fliers.  Then and only then will those charged with choosing the best pilot in the world be able to truly focus on ALL aspects of the very large FAI sporting code judges guide and give their best assessment of the flying.  The judges chosen are all very competent judges the system should not take away their from ability but support it.

The US nats is a very attractive contests do to the fact that the structure is setup to best benefit those in charge of deciding who the best in the country will be at that time.
 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on July 28, 2018, 10:19:20 AM
FWIW, qualifying did take place over 4 days, same in Perth and Poland.

There was no pre-contest this time. The one in Perth had a limit to the number of entries, not sure if that was the case in Poland.

There was a World cup the weekend before the W/C, but it was in Paris.

Pat MacKenzie

OK, for what it is worth.  There were 4 days for the 4 qualifying rounds flown on two circles per FAI rules.  The top 15 finalists are based on the total of the best single flight from each circle.  With 83 fliers, the judges scored 41 or 42 flights each day.  (There were 93 pre-entries.)

There was no a World Cup competition this year in Landres prior to the World Championships.  Yes, the World Cup competition, at least prior to the World Championships in Australia and Poland limited the entry to a number around 60 with no limit as far as I know on the number from any one country.  The entry is based on first come, first served.

Keith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 28, 2018, 12:20:56 PM
Thank you, Brett

May I suggest that you open a related topic on the F2B Working Group Forum?

rgds. Peter

    Not to be offensive, but, why? I opened this topic 15-ish years ago on Igor's board. This was how we got *two* circles. It was also opened by Warren Tiahrt and Shareen Fancher in 2002 in the run-up to the 2004 WC, it was "approved" by some FAI personages on multiple occasions, they planned everything accordingly. Until 3-4 months before the contest, then, it was "non non non, Américains stupides, we mustn't do that". And then we were back to ONE circle trudge to oblivion, with all the very predictable side effects.  Point being, *we already brought it up, multiple times, and got nearly nowhere*.

     In any case, I am sure I could convince you and the other participants F2B group. With one notable exception, they are a very sharp bunch, they care about the results, and they understand the problems and the likely solutions. But as we were just reminded, yet again, that doesn't matter. We had agreement to get rid of K-factors, again on Igor's board, we submitted the "proposal", then, somehow, it was first a "two year experiment"(!) and then "dead", all without knowing who argued what, what they understood or did not understand, what their motives might have been, anything. Just gone, no further discussion was possible or worthwhile. You just announced another "proposal" was completely mangled to defeat its purpose, what is our recourse there? Nothing. We had an agreement to add appearance points, that went up in smoke (probably because the opponents also realized that our agreements mean nothing, they can get their way in secret meetings). We had a royal proclamation that *no one* voted on and was not even a proposal that knocked a lot of us COMPLETELY OUT OF THE FAI ENTIRELY.

Note nearly the identical points from 2004:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=95655&mesg_id=95655

     I think the F2B group is a great group and the logical place to come up with FAI F2B rule changes. I and the USA have not always gotten our way, other countries representatives haven't necessarily gotten our way, either. But we have come up with useful and helpful proposals to solve real issues we have identified, a bit of arguing (which just proves everyone cares about the health of stunt), but we come up with good proposals that represent a decent compromise in most cases. Then it goes to the CIAM, and all our work goes up in smoke.

   I think you have been doing a great job of trying to get the right sorts of agreements and to air the different points of view. You group is the obvious starting place for what is desperately needed - an FAI F2B Rules committee, that votes on it, and the votes are binding and become rules. The AMA has had that for 35 years or so. But as long as it's just advisory, we can come up with whatever we want, and it doesn't make any difference.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 28, 2018, 12:24:35 PM

If the goal of the WC is to choose the best pilot IN THE WORLD then format has to be setup to benefit the judges and the helpers in the best possible way.

   Well, all the resistance, apparently insurmountable, to the well-known best practices, makes you wonder if that is the goal at all.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on July 28, 2018, 06:34:03 PM
   Well, all the resistance, apparently insurmountable, to the well-known best practices, makes you wonder if that is the goal at all.

    Brett

....yup....one wonders....
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Air Ministry . on July 28, 2018, 09:36:44 PM
Id think ' Highest Achieving Pilot ' or somesuch .

Theres a LOT MORE TO IT THAN ' JUST ' THE PILOT .

Look at the scrabble in 50s & 60s Grand Prix . ' The Best ' was the best at avoiding stuff ups , wipe outs etc . HAD to have a Competitive Car ( or Motorcycle ) AND a ' suitable ' Team / Drive .

AND , best in WHAT conditionbs ?? Ideal or Atrocious . Might well be miles apart at the extremes .

Thus I think trying conditions may highlight compitance AND experiance . Assuming theyve had experiance of ' unflyable ? ? ?  Conditions . And a Suitable Aircraft . And POWERPLANT .  S?P D>K D>K

===================================================================================================================================

' One Make " say for instance yatsenko , would have the drawback of attrition . Avg W/C has a few terminals . Who Pays .  $ 3500 upfront insurace ?

Also Development of the art / craft / aerodynamic / structural package .

If F1 was ( say ) formular Ford , aLL WE'D HAVE IS FORULAR FORD  .  for a comparason / analogy .

60s T/R , Speed & F2B development / individual approaches WAS the Intresting part of the event . seen through magazines , in far off parts .

Turnig W/C F2B into a " One Make " event to me would be detremetal to its prestige and to its substance .Like reducing permissable wind Speed has .  S?P S?P VD~ H^^

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Peter Grabenstein on July 28, 2018, 11:10:18 PM
More F2B WC 2018 Landres pics from Claudia.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fesselflug/sets/72157699277330325


Peter


Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 29, 2018, 07:20:01 AM
Thanks for the great photos.  It seems the days of the slab-sided fuselage are numbered.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: proparc on July 29, 2018, 10:26:58 AM

If there is what I am disapointed from is fact that there are too many purchased models on top. Looks like it is getting to be "toy" event, not "modeling" anymore  :'(

Starting to get just like F3A. Looks like Peter and the board got the new rule in just in time. y1
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on July 29, 2018, 10:30:17 AM
  " I think you have been doing a great job of trying to get the right sorts of agreements and to air the different points of view. You group is the obvious starting place for what is desperately needed - an FAI F2B Rules committee, that votes on it, and the votes are binding and become rules. The AMA has had that for 35 years or so. But as long as it's just advisory, we can come up with whatever we want, and it doesn't make any difference.

     Brett "

 Brett .. EXACTLY,  this is the reason  I have  no desire to get more involved, until there is a  "open"  way to talk about, change, amend rules , for the benefit of F2B may i say,  We are  not  going to get anything done, and the  frustration will continue. WHY can it not be made  public, how the secret people and  secret meetings happen, and  who are the ones that  have the power to do this? WHY does the  FAI  let the organisation be ran this way?

I would add I am the  FAI F2B  Team selection committee Chairperson, and  the  FAi F2B district representative,  There are  RULES  for  us on this committee, and  things just cannot  be   bypassed  in secret because someone doesn't like them,  or  they do not want things ran that way.  Rules are necessary, so is a logical way to enact them   
Thanks to Brett for his post, this explains what happens  VERY clearly, and  the history of  how things happen in the  FAI

Randy Smith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 29, 2018, 10:50:46 AM
Starting to get just like F3A. Looks like Peter and the board got the new rule in just in time. y1

   Did he/they(us, actually)?  The rule we/F2B group proposed got neutered:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/f2b-world-championships/msg526488/#msg526488

which I will quote with commentary:

Quote

By e-mail and prior to the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting the members of the FAI  F2 Subcommittee voted 13 for and 6 against on the original swiss proposal which suggested the addition of BOM bonus points to the flight score.

   Which is where it should have ended. The rule should have been adopted at that point, for the 2019 rulebook.

However:


Quote
Later, at time of the Technical Meeting from April 27 2018 in Lausanne, it was found that:

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the participants at FAI F2B contests.

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from others may have a demotivating effect on newcomers.

The delegates present (6) have therefore modified the proposal accordingly by removing the wording allowing the addition of bonus points to flight scores. The related voting was 6 for and 0 against. The revised version of the Concours d’Elégance F2B proposal was then submitted to the Plenary Meeting from April 28. The Delegates representing 37 countries have unanimously accepted the modified proposal. It will be set in force by January 1st. 2019.



  So, as has happened to nearly every consequential change that the F2B group has ever come up with, the proposal was made, then later, 6 people no one appears to be able to name, and with unknown motives, and  no opportunity for feedback or modification, it was altered to defeat the purpose by the fine gentlemen who managed to make it to the resort in Lausanne.

   As an aside, note the use of the "tactical syntax". This change does not "demotivate" anyone to use a borrowed/bought airplane, it "motivates" everyone to build their airplanes, while permitting them to continue participating in the interim.

    This is why Bill Lee, our CIAM representative, called the process a "joke", this is why I was upset, and what Randy was talking about.

   I have been an FAI member on and off since (I think) 1977 - longer than I have been an AMA member. An even less legitimate process with no votes at all has made it impossible for me to even be a member, or involved with an FAI team.

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on July 29, 2018, 10:59:15 AM
Who were the delegates from 37 countries who UNANIMOUSLY voted for the proposed change? 

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 29, 2018, 11:43:24 AM
Who were the delegates from 37 countries who UNANIMOUSLY voted for the proposed change? 

 That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on July 29, 2018, 03:46:21 PM
I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them are FRENCH, and wealthy and want to insure that all FAI decisions are made by Frenchmen!

After all they know better than anyone else what is RIGHT!  Don't believe me...just ask one!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on July 29, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett

That was an absolutely incredible post Brett. It leads me right back to the reason I view our Nat's as the most important contest on the planet. It's the only one you can trust!

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on July 29, 2018, 04:27:11 PM
It leads me right back to the reason I view our Nat's as the most important contest on the planet. It's the only one you can trust!

   It is indeed a sad situation when the problems and solutions are generally understood and agreed to by all concerned, and vetted by the *FAI's own working group of acknowledged experts*, but you can't actually get the rules changed, because people *who have nothing to do with the event* can thwart it at their whim.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Air Ministry . on July 29, 2018, 06:36:52 PM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/835/28645203857_1a88836005_b.jpg)

Might be some hope for the events future , anyway . Theyre not all grumpy olde fartes .

If she's still Jnr Eligable at the Next W/C , somebody'd better supply her with a hot @#$% high tech top line snot mobile ,
that should cut the ice , being not B.o.M. Requirement . Cant go to a gunfight with a pocket knife .   S?P

Comeone , put some SUPPORT behind them . More than one Jnr. in the U.S. ??
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Tom Luciano on July 29, 2018, 06:43:49 PM
Great picture!

Tom
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on July 29, 2018, 09:24:09 PM
That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett

It's insight like this to the situation at hand in the current and past FAI setup that generally makes me want to stay away from the going to the TT and trying for the FAI Team all together and focus on Event 322. Yet there is that subtle allure.....

Thank you for your information BB I read your stuff and pay attention as best I can.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 01, 2018, 01:16:02 AM
Hi Doug,

Apart from all of these conspiracy things above, I would suggest that you give the world champs at least one go. It is a hellavu experience. I have not yet emailed Rich Oliver since returning home but besides his engine issues with fuel and things, I reckon that he will still say that it was a great experience. Joe Gilbert would also agree I'm sure. You are a top-class pilot and will do very well at world champs level, so think about it.

Regards,
Keith R
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 01, 2018, 07:44:06 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/835/28645203857_1a88836005_b.jpg)

Might be some hope for the events future , anyway . Theyre not all grumpy olde fartes .

If she's still Jnr Eligable at the Next W/C , somebody'd better supply her with a hot @#$% high tech top line snot mobile ,
that should cut the ice , being not B.o.M. Requirement . Cant go to a gunfight with a pocket knife .   S?P

Comeone , put some SUPPORT behind them . More than one Jnr. in the U.S. ??
Matt you make a good point,  but that is exactly what my point is about requiring BOM for (and only for) the WC in FAI.   I can tell you it took a fund raising campaign just to get her there.  Some of those airplanes and equipment those KIDS are flying cost more than her trip, and say nothing about whether they know what a tube of glue is.  Not many wealthy benefactors over here in our sport. I am starting to see that the problem is too much money has already been invested 'over there' on RTF that it would be suicide to tell these people they can't use them now.  Your point taken though-the slab sided fuse airplane lacks luster next to the full-bodied airplanes.  That will be the new 'trend' this side of the pond.
They don't fly better-just look more impressive doing so.


Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 01, 2018, 09:25:33 AM
Dave said "They don't fly better-just look more impressive doing so." Hmmmm..... Dave, they do fly a hellavu lot better than most of the home built models, especially if the junior's build them. I've flown loads of other people's models through the years that were built from kits, and plans of the world's best stunt planes, and most of these RTF models are way better. I've flown Impacts, SV-11's, Trivial Pursuit's, Thunder Gazer's etc. built by modelers that build very well, but I'll put money on it and state that they don't usually fly like Paul's Impact, Randy's SV-11, Ted's Trivial Pursuit, or Dave's Thunder Gazer. If you have access to one of the great stunt folks and they can help to sort out your model then it's possible to duplicate such good performance, but if that is not possible then you build the kit or the scratch-built good design and you just don't really know how good it should be. In most cases it will have a very average performance.

So now these Yatsenko models come built and trimmed close to perfection. Each one will be flown and trimmed by Yuriy or Andrey and they are very competitive right out of the box. I can't talk for the other RTF composite models because I've never flown one. This is why these junior's and many seniors score so well in a short space of time. For us here in South Africa we have to multiply the Euro by 15 for our currency so the price is out of the vast majority's budget. I would love to own one of Yuriy's Yak 55's complete with that growling Discovery Retro .68 engine but this would cost 45 grand in our money. Our money previously around the time of President Carter was 1:1 to US$. Just a dream..............

I agree totally with the downside to all of this, and also agree in principle with the BOM rule because it does help to produce more people with special skills. I'm just saying that it is not easy to build a really good stunter with everything all working together to make a great high performance model that can compete with these RTF models.

Keith R
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on August 01, 2018, 10:14:24 AM
In the photo of the juniors there are only 3 ready to fly models. The rest are Russo’s and wood.
Jose modesto
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 01, 2018, 10:27:00 AM
Keith your point taken but I am of a mind that is more about trimming the airplane to fly well.  It's true that is done for you in these merchandise airplanes.  I also think the learning curve including the trimming process should be a part of being called "World Champ".  There is nothing really in aerodynamics making these machines superior and in fact slogging that chunk around in the wind may be more problematic.  This assumes the homebuilt airplane is built straight without major flaws.  It is also true that no two fly exactly alike.  If there is a quantum leap here, it's that you can hand one of these to just about anyone and it will accelerate their flight training greatly and allow more time to simply practice the pattern and 'show' more impressively.  Not taking anything away from the great fliers you've mentioned there are many other good airplanes out there too.  I would hazard that most anything flying in our Top 20 would be capable of flying in this category on any given day.  Notice I said FLYING-not always catching your eye like some of these new molded machines.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 01, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
I totally agree Dave. Once you can build a really good, straight model then it's down to trimming, but man that takes many years to figure out.....even with PW's amazing trimming chart. The obvious shortcut is to hang around one of the hotshots and get loads of help. I've also heard most of the top guys state that they had models that just would not perform to their high standard, so for the up and coming pilots, they just have very little chance to get that good to actually feel that their creation that took many months to build is actually not trimmed well enough to take them any further.

In 2000 at the world champs in Landres just btw, I sat with Yuriy and Andrey and I asked Yuriy what the secret is with his Classic that tracks on rails and turns like lightning. He replied....."ahhh, the answer is simple.........everything!" Then he went on to say that everything has to work together at the same time to fly such a good pattern.........including the pilot! It is only a small minority that will attain that level of building, trimming and flying. This is what makes them true champions.

Keith R
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 01, 2018, 10:58:15 AM
In the photo of the juniors there are only 3 ready to fly models. The rest are Russo’s and wood.
Jose modesto

Jose, depends what you call "RTF". There are also wood RTFs given to kids to fly WCh ... and trimmed already. I know, because it was also case of our junior (missing on the picture). It is simply so, model given by sponsor, daddy, team mate etc will fly better than model built and trimmed by the kid (yes I count with help of experienced coach). That and plus fact that RTF users not need spent time by trimming etc was reason why we wanted +10 points for BOM models, unfortunately torpedoed. Well, that is the way, kids will get models, they will fly it and when pocket or guys around will "outfly" all available models, kids will disappear. That is that "encouraging" new flyers by RTF models.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 01, 2018, 11:16:48 AM
Jose, depends what you call "RTF". There are also wood RTFs given to kids to fly WCh ... and trimmed already. I know, because it was also case of our junior (missing on the picture). It is simply so, model given by sponsor, daddy, team mate etc will fly better than model built and trimmed by the kid (yes I count with help of experienced coach). That and plus fact that RTF users not need spent time by trimming etc was reason why we wanted +10 points for BOM models, unfortunately torpedoed. Well, that is the way, kids will get models, they will fly it and when pocket or guys around will "outfly" all available models, kids will disappear. That is that "encouraging" new flyers by RTF models.

Yes it is unfortunate. 10 points is not a big deal in FAI. Not as much as AMA anyways.

You really need to come to our Nat's Igor, we would love to have you here.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on August 01, 2018, 12:53:16 PM
Yes it is unfortunate. 10 points is not a big deal in FAI. Not as much as AMA anyways.

You really need to come to our Nat's Igor, we would love to have you here.

Derek

Igor was here in 2004 and flew at our Nats.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on August 01, 2018, 01:09:52 PM

(Clip)
I would hazard that most anything flying in our Top 20 would be capable of flying in this category on any given day. 

(Clip)

Dave

Dave,

I might not understand the context of your statement.  If you are talking about models/pilots flying in our top 20, I have the following observations to offer.

Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.  Furthermore, with the electrics and their ability to turn with the premium to do so amplified by the FAI K factors, what we saw in Landres this year was jaw dropping and eye opining.

Keith
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Norvaldo on August 01, 2018, 02:29:00 PM
I took some photos.
Posted here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146237914@N08/albums/72157699341811365
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 01, 2018, 03:37:51 PM
Dave,

I might not understand the context of your statement.  If you are talking about models/pilots flying in our top 20, I have the following observations to offer.

Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.  Furthermore, with the electrics and their ability to turn with the premium to do so amplified by the FAI K factors, what we saw in Landres this year was jaw dropping and eye opining.

Keith
Hi Keith.  I was more speaking to the airplanes themselves than what the pilots were doing.  Some of our stuff may need to be re-trimmed to fly hard corners etc., but are capable in most cases.  Yes our pilots may need some re-trimming too!  That will start here at home with an understanding of what we are aiming for.  If we keep doing it 'our way' and the judges at the Worlds aren't buying that then we shouldn't expect THEM to change.  We must adapt.  I for one am still not convinced you need an electric to do that.  Save for the engine I am using I might concede the point.  More so than ever, we may need to train separately and in a different way than for the Nats and might have to choose which you are going to concentrate on since you may need a different style here to get to the top.  This older dog can learn new tricks-slowly.  BTW new fuselage molds are under construction in my shop as I write this.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 01, 2018, 03:41:00 PM
Igor was here in 2004 and flew at our Nats.

I was there too. I was just inviting him back.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Abi on August 01, 2018, 04:27:56 PM
So now these Yatsenko models come built and trimmed close to perfection. Each one will be flown and trimmed by Yuriy or Andrey and they are very competitive right out of the box.

Not a single model on the photo is made by Yatsenko's. Not one.
The Ukranian kid flew Solomianikov's old model. It was a present from Mr. Solomianikov and cost nothing to kid.
Russian kid flew model built by Russian national champion and cost nothing to kid.
Chinese Junior flew model built by top Chinese fliers who copied Yatsenko design but is 100% Chinese.
The only model that was bought on that picture is the Bulgarian girl who flew a model produced by Mr. Leonidov. The entire Bulgarian national team contributed to buy the model.

There is a tradition in the world of top fliers presenting their models to Juniors who will represent their country.

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 02, 2018, 12:35:15 AM
Hi Abi, thanks for that info. My statement was not directed to that photo. It was just a general statement about how good these RTF Yatsenko models are. I sure did not know that the Chinese junior's Gee Bee was actually built by the Chinese guys. That's impressive!

Keith R
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 02, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
I took some photos.
Posted here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146237914@N08/albums/72157699341811365

Thanks Norvald, nice photo's. The action shot of the SBach with the "dihedral" is impressive!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Christoph Holtermann on August 02, 2018, 03:08:58 AM
Keith,

you should have explained that the "dihdral" was not intentional but poor Dan lost the lower bolt/screw of his outboard wing. So it was a Shark, not an SBach what this photo shows.

The impressive  part of this was however that Andreij Yatsenko, jumped immediately after Dan's landing to his plane, examined it, picked a reserve bolt from his car and repaired Dan's plane within 5 minutes after his landing.

No one asked Andreij to do that, it was his understanding of sportsmanship to help his costumers. What nice sportsmen the Yatsenkos are and maybe that is another reason why so many fly their plans.

Christoph
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Andre Ming on August 02, 2018, 07:08:47 AM
"non non non, Américains stupides..."

Unfortunately, it seems that perception is becoming more and more frequent (and vocal) among the nations.

Also, unfortunately, we (Americans) as a society, are giving such perceptions heavy ammunition for use at will, thus we are a "target rich" environment in which to go "stupid" hunting. Armed with such ammunition, it doesn't take much of a hunt, and it's guaranteed you'll easily bag your limit of "stupid" among the ranks in our beloved America.

 LL~

This has been an interesting thread. IMHO, any event that depends upon subjectivity (the eyes of judges and conformance to many tech rules), are tough nuts to crack. Some, more so than others. Amazing our US fliers can do as well as they do given the odds against them I'm beginning see via this thread.

Andre
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 02, 2018, 07:53:20 AM
Just thrown out as a thought- if we are concerned about our competition in world events perhaps a few FAI contests flown here instead of JUST the Team Trials would:
1. Expose more to it and help train/recruit more to jump in.
2.  Allow for now the (dare I say) non-BOM airplanes and fliers to compete.
3. Provide a training opportunity for FAI judges.

Here I simply don’t have a suitable facility or I’d do it.  Maybe elsewhere.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on August 02, 2018, 09:02:24 AM
Dave. In the late 1980’s to early 1990’s the US nationals were dominated by 3 flyers Walker,Casale and ted  Fancher the other top pilot was Bob Baron
These men flew hard corner patterns and were rewarded with high scores. The smooth guys could make top 5 but generally could not win.
The judges of that time valued a hard tight pattern.
The FAI judging as currently practiced values hard corners with low bottoms.
Our nationally trained judging values smooth with moderate corners over hard 4’ pattern.
You don’t get additional points for tight flying.
There was a thread recently that discussed this topic of hard corners not being valued as equal to softer smoother flying.
If you run an FAI contest with AMA judges it will not help you prepare for an FAI contest.
1) judges must value hard corners with great flat exits and 4’ bottoms
You must recruit Paul Walker as FAI team,chief trainer of judging,flyers etc. he is the closes we have to the way they fly at the worlds. Orestes would be #2 on my list.
If you want to dominate AMA David Fitz is your guy. Flauless flyers with good corner, Hard to beat in AMA.
This is my observation of AMA vs FAI
Jose modesto

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on August 02, 2018, 09:05:24 AM
"non non non, Américains stupides..."

Unfortunately, it seems that perception is becoming more and more frequent (and vocal) among the nations.

   Also unfortuntately, there is an entire segment of the US population who thinks it's the height of fashion to do the same. Everything we have done or do, its because of all those "stupid" or "deplorable" Americans, that are so dumb they don't even know enough to feel guilty for being American. And the news media is leading the way.

     American and the founding precepts of the USA has been the greatest advance in human civilization since the agricultural revolution. Most the remaining issues we have are being intentionally stoked, because if they were resolved, what would people have to be aggrieved about?

   That's a different thread, of course.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 02, 2018, 09:17:00 AM
Chinese Junior flew model built by top Chinese fliers who copied Yatsenko design but is 100% Chinese.

As far as I know Letong flew Yatsenko model (Gee Bee) with colors designed by his daddy. They tried to build their composite model, but it failed, so few days before W. champ they got model from Yatsenko.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 02, 2018, 09:18:59 AM
Keith,

you should have explained that the "dihdral" was not intentional but poor Dan lost the lower bolt/screw of his outboard wing. So it was a Shark, not an SBach what this photo shows.

The impressive  part of this was however that Andreij Yatsenko, jumped immediately after Dan's landing to his plane, examined it, picked a reserve bolt from his car and repaired Dan's plane within 5 minutes after his landing.

No one asked Andreij to do that, it was his understanding of sportsmanship to help his costumers. What nice sportsmen the Yatsenkos are and maybe that is another reason why so many fly their plans.


Probably he knew exactly what is going on, because exactly the same thing happened to him in Hungaria few years later :- )))
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 02, 2018, 09:26:19 AM
Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.

This is funny ... EXACTLY same feeling I have after return home, looks like I did not move forward last years and rest of the world is slowly running around me and I must think how get them again :- ))))))))))

... or just go retirement :- ))))))))))))))))

... we will see what can winter bring, either surprise (and I will try to make it surprise) or nothing, it will tell me if I am flyer or coach in Wloclawek 2020 :- )))
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: frank williams on August 02, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
"There is a tradition in the world of top fliers presenting their models to Juniors who will represent their country."

Interesting ..... I think I witnessed a transfer of a former WC's plane to a junior at this years Nats.  Maybe there's hope for the US.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 02, 2018, 10:22:23 AM
Dave. In the late 1980’s to early 1990’s the US nationals were dominated by 3 flyers Walker,Casale and ted  Fancher the other top pilot was Bob Baron
These men flew hard corner patterns and were rewarded with high scores. The smooth guys could make top 5 but generally could not win.
The judges of that time valued a hard tight pattern.
The FAI judging as currently practiced values hard corners with low bottoms.
Our nationally trained judging values smooth with moderate corners over hard 4’ pattern.
You don’t get additional points for tight flying.
There was a thread recently that discussed this topic of hard corners not being valued as equal to softer smoother flying.
If you run an FAI contest with AMA judges it will not help you prepare for an FAI contest.
1) judges must value hard corners with great flat exits and 4’ bottoms
You must recruit Paul Walker as FAI team,chief trainer of judging,flyers etc. he is the closes we have to the way they fly at the worlds. Orestes would be #2 on my list.
If you want to dominate AMA David Fitz is your guy. Flauless flyers with good corner, Hard to beat in AMA.
This is my observation of AMA vs FAI
Jose modesto
Yes Jose that’s what I was getting at about training FAI style judges.  Not sure the same people could or would want to do both.  Our guys do a super job at AMA judging.  Apparently we need a few who will be as good at judging the way they are ‘yonder’.  How else will our flight crew learn to fly that way.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: jose modesto on August 02, 2018, 10:45:21 AM
Dave. One way is for AMA judges to return to our past were the corner has an appropriate value.
The pattern is not different in AMA compared to FAI.
A square maneuver does not have radious corners it has a sharp 90 degree transition
He  who flys closer to that ideal should be rewarded. In AMA it is not valued the same.
We have changed
We have a rich history of corner men Schaffer,Cassale,Walker, 1970’sHunt, Fancher,1990’s Dave Fitz,windy, and many more.
Let’s reclaim that history.
It starts with judging trining to value the corner again.
We are in the Dave Fitz era now, he will dominate as Walker did in the 90’s

 Davis has a very good corner now. He will be hard to beat no matter what the judging changes are.
Watch for Rudd if he gets a plane. He can fly AMA.
Jose modesto
Jose modesto
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 02, 2018, 10:51:12 AM
Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.

Keith

I strongly disagree with this statement.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 02, 2018, 10:58:14 AM
I'm just blown away with where this conversation has gone. I guess all of us USA/AMA hacks should just pack it up and find a new hobby. Chris made the top five for the first time last year, then went to the world's and did extremely well for a first time senior competitor, but we are supposed to believe that our AMA pattern is obsolete? If you want to do well at the Nat's, a soft pattern isn't going to cut it, but if you read this thread you would think we are all beginners flying ringmaster's.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 02, 2018, 11:15:27 AM
Derek I don’t take it that way at all.  It’s not better or worse- just different.  We can’t square dance at a ballet contest and expect to finish well.   FAI isn’t pretty- it’s sort of harsh flying by our standards (at present) and if we want to whoop ‘em we’ll have to play their game.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on August 02, 2018, 12:12:21 PM
After reading all of this I have the solution.
Those in the USA who want to fork out the dough to travel around he world to fly the WCs-100 fliers on 2 circles- all you have to do is video your self doing a climb and dive. Send it to Randy and he will choose the team according to who has the sharpest corner. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 02, 2018, 12:13:53 PM
Derek I don’t take it that way at all.  It’s not better or worse- just different.  We can’t square dance at a ballet contest and expect to finish well.   FAI isn’t pretty- it’s sort of harsh flying by our standards (at present) and if we want to whoop ‘em we’ll have to play their game.

Dave

Last time, that was the standard. They might be looking for shape and 45 degrees next time. Maybe they will like black and red planes, or just electric in two years.

Derek
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on August 02, 2018, 01:05:51 PM
After reading all of this I have the solution.
Those in the USA who want to fork out the dough to travel around he world to fly the WCs-100 fliers on 2 circles- all you have to do is video your self doing a climb and dive. Send it to Randy and he will choose the team accordingly. Sounds pretty simple to me.
I like it.  Then we could spend a year of endless criticizing and debate over his choices. Just think of the bandwidth we could waste - Priceless.

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 02, 2018, 01:43:28 PM
Our guys do a super job at AMA judging.  Apparently we need a few who will be as good at judging the way they are ‘yonder’.  How else will our flight crew learn to fly that way.

Dave

Simple  , just read the rule book and  try to fly as close to it as you can, this is the  way  I have  always  tried to coach my guys, and  everyone should try to fly, as close to a rule book pattern as possible. It  WILL  pay off.  NO matter  where you are, Worlds, or  AMA NATs .
I will also say anyone who goes  to fly the  US NATs  or  the  Worlds, better  fly a tight 45 degree pattern with sharp corners
The  WCs  judges , and  ALL others should  also  go by the  rules, not change what they want to see  every cycle
and  may i add  1.5 meters  is  5 ft elevation      DEAD in the middle of our 4 to 6 ft range, again this is where  I train to fly bottoms

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on August 02, 2018, 03:21:50 PM
Simple  , just read the rule book and  try to fly as close to it as you can, this is the  way  I have  always  tried to coach my guys, and  everyone should try to fly, as close to a rule book pattern as possible. It  WILL  pay off.  NO matter  where you are, Worlds, or  AMA NATs .
I will also say anyone who goes  to fly the  US NATs  or  the  Worlds, better  fly a tight 45 degree pattern with sharp corners
The  WCs  judges , and  ALL others should  also  go by the  rules, not change what they want to see  every cycle
and  may i add  1.5 meters  is  5 ft elevation      DEAD in the middle of our 4 to 6 ft range, again this is where  I train to fly bottoms

Randy

That is right on the money!! 

But...as some have pointed out that once the judges have looked at 60 patterns in a day they are naturally going to start looking at 1 aspect and that will rule the day.

But there are some who feel the system is fine as is and this type of work load is fine no need for a change so we are good.

100 fliers 2 circles...... smh
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 02, 2018, 04:55:43 PM
In the FAI pattern it states that the manoeuvres have to look correct to the pilot and therefore look "wrong" to the judges, is it the same for the AMA pattern or do the manoeuvres have to look correct to the judges?
The FAI changed about 10 years ago for some reason which now makes judging harder.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Trostle on August 02, 2018, 05:29:34 PM
In the FAI pattern it states that the manoeuvres have to look correct to the pilot and therefore look "wrong" to the judges, is it the same for the AMA pattern or do the manoeuvres have to look correct to the judges?
The FAI changed about 10 years ago for some reason which now makes judging harder.

A bit off topic here, but a judge is never in the optimum position to view a maneuver except for take off, level flight, inverted flight, and if the judge is in direct alignment of the paths of the wingover, and the landing.  It is the responsibility of the judge to recognize the parallax problems from whatever his viewpoint and assign a score accordingly.  Now, we can get into the subject of what some top pilots can do to make a maneuver look better to the judges while not exactly following the the description for that maneuver, but that is sort of beyond the scope of this thread.

Keith

Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 02, 2018, 05:44:52 PM
Yes, I agree. However, is there a difference between FAI and AMA in regards to how the pattern is flown?
Meaning, in FAI it states that the pattern has to look correct to the pilot but about 10 years ago it said the pattern had to look correct to the judges. What does the AMA pattern say?
If the AMA states that it should look correct to the judges, that means the US pilots have to modify their pattern to suit FAI. (at the Worlds)
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 02, 2018, 06:07:10 PM
Russell its been a very great while since I had a rule book but I don't recall our AMA rule book saying anything in that regard either way.  Maybe newer versions do.  I only recall maneuver descriptions as the pilot would see it.  I would think it could be found on the AMA website.

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 02, 2018, 06:23:30 PM
In the FAI pattern it states that the manoeuvres have to look correct to the pilot and therefore look "wrong" to the judges, is it the same for the AMA pattern or do the manoeuvres have to look correct to the judges?
The FAI changed about 10 years ago for some reason which now makes judging harder.

THe AMa guide  states  the  maneuvers are described to be the view of the  PILOT , This is straight out of the  Judge guide,  So  Yes it is the same,  as it should be


14.3.1.
In all of the following maneuver marking instructions, the
descriptions have been written from the viewing point of the pilot
and not of the judges; and all the following descriptions use “twodimensional”
terms on the basis that while it is known that model
aircraft actually fly hemispherical arcs, the real judging task is to
mark maneuvers such as Square Loops (for example) on the basis
of what can be most easily and clearly described in writing as
“straight line” flight paths. Rather than using terms which are
geometrically accurate but which may create confusion, all the
maneuver descriptions in this document therefore use terms which
express the meaning of the AMA Rules and explain the judges’
marking tasks as clearly and as simply as possible.
Regards
Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Howard Rush on August 02, 2018, 07:29:00 PM
Yes, I agree. However, is there a difference between FAI and AMA in regards to how the pattern is flown?
Meaning, in FAI it states that the pattern has to look correct to the pilot but about 10 years ago it said the pattern had to look correct to the judges. What does the AMA pattern say?
If the AMA states that it should look correct to the judges, that means the US pilots have to modify their pattern to suit FAI. (at the Worlds)


Russell, I think you should come to the next US Nationals and see for yourself.  You will have your choice of former world champions to molest, as is your wont. 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on August 02, 2018, 07:44:07 PM
Yes, I agree. However, is there a difference between FAI and AMA in regards to how the pattern is flown?
Meaning, in FAI it states that the pattern has to look correct to the pilot but about 10 years ago it said the pattern had to look correct to the judges. What does the AMA pattern say?
If the AMA states that it should look correct to the judges, that means the US pilots have to modify their pattern to suit FAI. (at the Worlds)

   There is no consequential difference. These "perspective" issues, even if it is still different, are moot in practice.
Differences:

AMA: must do 2+laps between hourglass and overhead 8
FAI: 1.5 laps is OK

AMA: landing is smooth descent to touchdown
FAI: landing is smooth descent to touchdown over 1 entire lap (this is an absurd detail that should be removed).

AMA: flight time is 8 minutes from hand signal to wheel stop
FAI: flight time is 7 minutes from engine start to wheel stop (hand signal not required)

AMA: Flight is official when turning inverted on the reverse wingover
FAI: Flight is official when model takes off

AMA: Corner radius is "tight" (effectively 0)
FAI: Corner radius is "5 feet" with a metric conversion mistake/roundoff.

Another difference is K-factor, which is a mistake the FAI made, but makes no practical difference, if anything, its makes FAI easier since you are not dead if your blow the takeoff or landing, etc. which you definitely ARE in AMA.

Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 02, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
Howard, you are a very bad man!!!!!! ~^

I'm a good boy, I don't do those kind of things, especially to World Champions!!!  S?P

It's all FAKE NEWS!!!!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on August 02, 2018, 09:55:09 PM

THE "WHAT SHOULD A ROUND, SQUARE OR UNILATERAL TRIANGLE LOOK LIKE CONUNDRUM?  WELL, DUH!

The only sane thing a pilot can do is fly the maneuvers so they look like their names to him/her. Any "circumferential arc" will look to the pilot as a straight line (take level flight for a perfect example of the breed).  A 45 degree loop will look the same to the pilot no matter where he places it on the sphere (a sphere which to him looks exactly the same everywhere).  Fly 'em as you'd draw them on a black board and trust the judges to figure them out.


THE "CORNER" CONUNDRUM!

Let's get rid of the canard about 1.5 to 2.1 meter radii corner once and for all.  At 55MPH (82 feet per second) a 90degree corner on a 1.5-2.1M (4.93-6.9 feet) radius traverses 7.72 to 10.29 feet and takes 0.096 to 0.128 seconds (try blinking your eye 10 times in one second to get an idea of how quick the F2B code requires "all" corners to be flown).  Nobody is flying corners that tight and, per the FAI F2B sporting code "all fliers" are failing to comply with the requirement that "all corners" "should (SHOULD!!!)" comply with the requirement.  Ergo, each "square" corner in the pattern (34 of them by my count) are verifiable errors and "triangular" corners  (10 of them) are equally deficient. 

Judges must, to comply with the F2B code, fault each of those errors inasmuch as the acceptable radii are codified in the document should (SHOULD! What exactly does "SHOULD" mean) result in deductions if not complied with. 

How judges are to do so (44 undeniable errors in just five maneuvers; wingover, inside and outside squares, triangles and hourglass) when they are given only 50 possible options (1 thru 10 for 5 maneuvers; ergo a maximum remaining six total points remaining for the five) is not addressed in the sporting code.

The above factual demonstration (unless my math is wrong...in which case show me) should unequivocally require the code to eliminate the cut and paste "corners should" requirement rubber stamped into each cornered maneuver.


Now, an alternative requirement that judges reward "tighter" corners (note: "tighter" a relative term reflecting a comparison of observable differentiation) combined with a reasonable range of allowable scores with which to include "comparative" corners along with the apparently less important factors such as shapes and...reasonably observable...maneuver sizes in determining an appropriate reward for the quality of the entire maneuver would seem to have great merit and be a logical and valuable replacement for the one currently in use.  The F2B code could go one step better than the AMA CLPA rules and allow a full 40 points for such adjudication.

Ted Fancher
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 02, 2018, 10:10:58 PM
THE "WHAT SHOULD A ROUND, SQUARE OR UNILATERAL TRIANGLE LOOK LIKE CONUNDRUM?  WELL, DUH!

The only sane thing a pilot can do is fly the maneuvers so they look like their names to him/her. Any "circumferential arc" will look to the pilot as a straight line (take level flight for a perfect example of the breed).  A 45 degree loop will look the same to the pilot no matter where he places it on the sphere (a sphere which to him looks exactly the same everywhere).  Fly 'em as you'd draw them on a black board and trust the judges to figure them out.


THE "CORNER" CONUNDRUM!

Let's get rid of the canard about 1.5 to 2.1 meter radii corner once and for all.  At 55MPH (82 feet per second) a 90degree corner on a 1.5-2.1M (4.93-6.9 feet) radius traverses 7.72 to 10.29 feet and takes 0.096 to 0.128 seconds (try blinking your eye 10 times in one second to get an idea of how quick the F2B code requires "all" corners to be flown).  Nobody is flying corners that tight and, per the FAI F2B sporting code "all fliers" are failing to comply with the requirement that "all corners" "should (SHOULD!!!)" comply with the requirement.  Ergo, each "square" corner in the pattern (34 of them by my count) are verifiable errors and "triangular" corners  (10 of them) are equally deficient. 

Judges must, to comply with the F2B code, fault each of those errors inasmuch as the acceptable radii are codified in the document should (SHOULD! What exactly does "SHOULD" mean) result in deductions if not complied with. 

How judges are to do so (44 undeniable errors in just five maneuvers; wingover, inside and outside squares, triangles and hourglass) when they are given only 50 possible options (1 thru 10 for 5 maneuvers; ergo a maximum remaining six total points remaining for the five) is not addressed in the sporting code.

The above factual demonstration (unless my math is wrong...in which case show me) should unequivocally require the code to eliminate the cut and paste "corners should" requirement rubber stamped into each cornered maneuver.


Now, an alternative requirement that judges reward "tighter" corners (note: "tighter" a relative term reflecting a comparison of observable differentiation) combined with a reasonable range of allowable scores with which to include "comparative" corners along with the apparently less important factors such as shapes and...reasonably observable...maneuver sizes in determining an appropriate reward for the quality of the entire maneuver would seem to have great merit and be a logical and valuable replacement for the one currently in use.  The F2B code could go one step better than the AMA CLPA rules and allow a full 40 points for such adjudication.

Ted Fancher

Hi Ted

The FAI scoring  allows for  1/10th  points, so you could think of that as  near  100 scores they could give ..  ie  8.7  6.9   , and so on,
But you are  dead  on about the  radius part of the  FAI scoring, No one  is doing it period ,  I think I said that in an earlier post when I suggested that verbiage  be  changed

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Paul Walker on August 02, 2018, 10:32:41 PM
Howard, you are a very bad man!!!!!! ~^

I'm a good boy, I don't do those kind of things, especially to World Champions!!!  S?P

It's all FAKE NEWS!!!!


Russell, if you come to our Nat's, you are the one who should be watching their back!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: SteveMoon on August 03, 2018, 07:04:19 AM
My quick take: K-factor sucks. It turns the pattern into a three maneuver contest. At that point
no competitor is actually flying a complete pattern, but rather just trying to nail a few high k-factor
maneuvers. This ruins the overall perception of a flight.

I don't care for the FAI rule for landings. If you have to whip your plane around the circle
to ensure you fly one full lap after the end of the flight, then that isn't necessarily a smooth
descent to landing. Whether the 'smooth descent' takes half a lap, a full lap or 46 laps it shouldn't
really matter.

If the USA, or any team for that matter, wants to do well at the WCs then said team should know
the FAI rulebook inside out and compete to those guidelines. Whether or not those guidelines or
rules agree with common practice in the USA (or wherever) is irrelevant. Whatever the rules are
for flying the pattern at the time when the contest is conducted is how the pattern must be
flown to perform well.

Also, I think what Doug said is really funny!!

Steve
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 03, 2018, 07:22:40 AM
No Lauri, I don't mind the FAI landing rule as well, I don't have any trouble whipping (gently) to land the plane.
I also like K factors as you can't tell me that takeoff, inverted and landing etc. are worth the same points as the H/eight, sq/eight, V/eight, triangles and hourglass etc.
No way!
Long live FAI.   S?P S?P S?P S?P
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Derek Barry on August 03, 2018, 08:42:49 AM
No Lauri, I don't mind the FAI landing rule as well, I don't have any trouble whipping (gently) to land the plane.
I also like K factors as you can't tell me that takeoff, inverted and landing etc. are worth the same points as the H/eight, sq/eight, V/eight, triangles and hourglass etc.
No way!
Long live FAI.   S?P S?P S?P S?P

Try to do a perfect takeoff. 15 foot roll out, gradual accent to 5 foot, and two more laps without moving up or down an inch.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 03, 2018, 09:40:16 AM
No Lauri, I don't mind the FAI landing rule as well, I don't have any trouble whipping (gently) to land the plane.
I also like K factors as you can't tell me that takeoff, inverted and landing etc. are worth the same points as the H/eight, sq/eight, V/eight, triangles and hourglass etc.
No way!
Long live FAI.   S?P S?P S?P S?P


No I do not think so, the round 8s  are  5 times as much score as the takeoff and 2 laps level flight??
The 2 squares  are  6 times  the value ???  NO  they are  not  6 times harder to do
The landing worth more??   uhmm  NO , the  1 lap spot landing is also a  silly rule, this  kills off  light airplanes, and contest with higher winds, the landing  should be able to be varied in length  with different airplanes, as  with some it is  IMPOSSIBLE  to go one  lap when hi winds are involved.  This also tends to give  electric planes a way to cheat, as they can be  setup where the computerized component inside can be set to greatly speed up the plane for the last few seconds of flight, to  assist the pilot in making  the landing, this should  not be the case.   The  pilot should do ALL of the manoeuvre without  computer help

Randy   S?P S?P S?P S?P S?P S?P
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 03, 2018, 09:46:53 AM
Keith,

you should have explained that the "dihdral" was not intentional but poor Dan lost the lower bolt/screw of his outboard wing. So it was a Shark, not an SBach what this photo shows.

The impressive  part of this was however that Andreij Yatsenko, jumped immediately after Dan's landing to his plane, examined it, picked a reserve bolt from his car and repaired Dan's plane within 5 minutes after his landing.

No one asked Andreij to do that, it was his understanding of sportsmanship to help his costumers. What nice sportsmen the Yatsenkos are and maybe that is another reason why so many fly their plans.

Christoph

Thanks Christoph, I knew that it was broken somehow and that's why I put "dihedral" in inverted comma's. I did not look closely enough to see that it was a Shark and as you say good back-up from Andrej.
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 03, 2018, 09:49:38 AM
By the way, these are  the   K factors

The sequence of manoeuvres with their corresponding K factor is :
1. Starting 0
2. Take-off 2
3. Reverse wing-over 8
4. Three consecutive inside loops 6
5. Two consecutive laps of inverted level flight 2
6. Three consecutive outside loops 6
7. Two consecutive inside square loops 12
8. Two consecutive outside square loops 12
9. Two consecutive inside triangular loops 14
10. Two consecutive horizontal eights 7
11. Two consecutive square horizontal eight 18
12. Two consecutive vertical eight 10
13 Hourglass 10
14. Two consecutive overhead figure eight 10
15. Four-leaf clover 8
16. Landing 5
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 03, 2018, 09:54:56 AM
"Christoph

Thanks Christoph, I knew that it was broken somehow and that's why I put "dihedral" in inverted comma's. I did not look closely enough to see that it was a Shark and as you say good back-up from Andrej."

Yuriy  and Andrey Yatsenko  are  World Class competitors and  more important, are true sportsmen  and gentlemen , that will go out of their way  to help fellow pilots, That is the way so many are in this  sport, It is  also one of the things I like most  about model aviation

Regards
Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on August 03, 2018, 10:50:28 AM
Hi Ted

The FAI scoring  allows for  1/10th  points, so you could think of that as  near  100 scores they could give ..  ie  8.7  6.9   , and so on,
But you are  dead  on about the  radius part of the  FAI scoring, No one  is doing it period ,  I think I said that in an earlier post when I suggested that verbiage  be  changed

Randy

Hi Randy,

Alas, my experience with FAI is dated.  If accurate I  regret that part of my comments. 

On the other hand, if they're going to use a 100 point system why don't they just do so and eliminate a few bazillion decimal key pushes at the WCs (plus a couple hundred re-adds for "perhaps" having missed the decimal point).  Oh, and for God's sake, don't forget to multiply by the K factors. 

The good new is that if the decimal points are removed we could have scores approaching a hundred thousand or so.  That "would" be cool! n~ n~

Ted
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Mike Palko on August 03, 2018, 11:07:34 AM
I would love to hear first hand what the USA team members have to say about their trip, competition, competitors airplanes, judging and comments in this thread. I know several of them post on StuntHanger so maybe we will hear from them.

Mike
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 03, 2018, 11:13:39 AM
Hi Randy,

Alas, my experience with FAI is dated.  If accurate I  regret that part of my comments. 

On the other hand, if they're going to use a 100 point system why don't they just do so and eliminate a few bazillion decimal key pushes at the WCs (plus a couple hundred re-adds for "perhaps" having missed the decimal point).  Oh, and for God's sake, don't forget to multiply by the K factors. 

The good new is that if the decimal points are removed we could have scores approaching a hundred thousand or so.  That "would" be cool! n~ n~

Ted

Ted
I agree completely,  I believe the  Canadian guys, hosted a contest  that  used  FAI scoring, but  did  NOT use  any of the  K factors, and  They thought it was  really a good way to score the contest.  I could get to like that, plus  as  you , and I have stated before, just use 1 to 100 , drop the decimal points. And drop the  silly  spot landing where  whipping is a must

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Howard Rush on August 03, 2018, 12:01:30 PM
Instead of complaining about the FAI landing, why not figure out how to do it well? 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Dave_Trible on August 03, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
Last time, that was the standard. They might be looking for shape and 45 degrees next time. Maybe they will like black and red planes, or just electric in two years.

Derek
You are surely right.  But I will say the last few world champs fly this way-watch Orestes-that's how he flies and Paul too to a great extent. I've not seen Igor fly in person (yet) but I'd bet it's pretty close in style.  Hiki_you bet cha! Howard has been there and seen it and certainly shows those traits, especially in corners.  In any event I have red and black dope-electric...not too likely :-)). 

Dave
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on August 03, 2018, 12:51:53 PM
No Lauri, I don't mind the FAI landing rule as well, I don't have any trouble whipping (gently) to land the plane.
I also like K factors as you can't tell me that takeoff, inverted and landing etc. are worth the same points as the H/eight, sq/eight, V/eight, triangles and hourglass etc.
No way!
Long live FAI.   S?P S?P S?P S?P

To me it is not that it is harder it is that it is just as important.  That is how I view it.  K Factors reduce the importance of some over others.  Bounce ther landing when competing for the USA national championship and see what happens.  It matters and it will cost you dearly.  It makes the maneuver that much harder and that much more concentation is required for the duration of the flight. 

In the AMA pattern ALL of the maneuvers are important.  In the FAI K factor scoring that is not the case.  The landing spot is not that big a deal if you miss it.  The cost is minimal and if you had a good triangle it doesn’t matter.  That is the easy way out. Make ALL of the maneuvers count and you will find flying the pattern becomes way more difficult.
 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on August 03, 2018, 01:40:40 PM
To me it is not that it is harder it is that it is just as important.  That is how I view it.  K Factors reduce the importance of some over others.  Bounce ther landing when competing for the USA national championship and see what happens.  It matters and it will cost you dearly.  It makes the maneuver that much harder and that much more concentation is required for the duration of the flight. 

In the AMA pattern ALL of the maneuvers are important.  In the FAI K factor scoring that is not the case.  The landing spot is not that big a deal if you miss it.  The cost is minimal and if you had a good triangle it doesn’t matter.  That is the easy way out. Make ALL of the maneuvers count and you will find flying the pattern becomes way more difficult.
AMEN
My daughter was a national level figure skater when skating went through the dropping of figures and changing to the international "K" factor judging.  The sport is just now recovering and we have had very few world champions since that change.  The kids can jump like rabbits but they don't know how to "slate".  I don't want to see that happen to us.  When you go for the points you lose the artistry.  If you have to pay attention to the little things it ultimately makes everything better.

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Doug Moon on August 03, 2018, 04:02:55 PM
I'm sorry but I don't get your logic. It's quite ridiculous to say that at this level pilots don't put full focus on every single maneuvre. Judges are good and scoring system is same for all. Just look at the point differences in top. It can also be just that bouncy landing.
I missed top 15 with 30-something points. Nothing particular, just a mistake here and some others there. Those behind me were even worse.
I completely agree with Keith & Igor, quality of flying was very high, maybe US did not have their best to offer. L

I never ever said the quality was not high.

But it is pretty obvious when one manuever score is multiplied by a number and another is not that the one with the multiplier is worth more in the end and therefore is more important.  I am not trying to say the top level FAI guys dont focus all the way through.  I am certain they do.  But you can overcome a bad landing if you had a really good high K factor maneuver earlier.  Since we dont have that option mistakes on the perceived easier maneuvers will have more of an impact against the score. 

In the end it all evens out in the wash and the best pilot wins anyway.


Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 03, 2018, 04:11:47 PM
Every two years after the World's we have the same complaints mainly from AMA pilots.
The rest of the World flys FAI.....................get over it and live with it.
The rest of the World is NOT going to do what The US wants....................sounds familiar?? S?P
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on August 03, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
Yeah,  Well remember that attitude the next time a country in Europe needs to be "bailed out" from some would be world takeover dictatator!

In person I would say something entirely different to you but Forum rules say I have to be nice!  Just make sure to stay in Europe or wherever you are, and you can always have it your way!

Really glad I've never had any interest in competing in FAI even though I spent a lot of time in Europe!  There are some very nice people there I just don't think you're one of them!  Since you're Australian you must have the some attitude as the Froggy French.  No one does anything as well as you HuH?


Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on August 03, 2018, 04:48:15 PM
Every two years after the World's we have the same complaints mainly from AMA pilots.
The rest of the World flys FAI.....................get over it and live with it.
The rest of the World is NOT going to do what The US wants....................sounds familiar?? S?P S?P S?P S?P S?P

   Right. Most of the people participating in the "international" F2B working group are willing to actually address various issues, people with your bigoted "Ugly American" stereotypes ignore most of it, reject it based on who proposed it instead of the merits, and prevent any progress from being made. That is *exactly* what seems to happen at Derek's mystery committee.

    We know all that. But we are still plugging away, dumb fat lazy types as we are, because we are still stupid enough to figure that you might actually want to listen to someone who has 10x more experience. It's just as much *our* event as it is yours or anyone else's - not to mention *we invented it and perfected it*, at which point "the world" just copied the 1959 AMA rule book and slapped "FAI" on it and later claimed to be the experts on it. Also not to mention (and *just exactly like world affairs) it appears that AMA members pay lion's share of the dues for the FAI to exist at all.

    But no, just accept the status quo, because the "leaders" figure it all out, what can we do, throw up our hands?  We don't accept this, it is culturally repellent to settle for a lesser solution just because it seems too hard. Fortunately, not many of your fellow countrymen take this tack, nor do stunt fliers in general (no matter where they are).

   By the way, have you ever considered the *reason* people such as yourself dismiss us all out of hand? Because there's a very good and fairly obvious answer to that question, and it has far more to do with you than it does with us.

   This is all OT, start a thread entitled "People from the USA are whiners/stupid/pushy" and we will have a lively debate. But that's probably too hard, and you might not win, so don't even try.

     Brett
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on August 03, 2018, 04:53:40 PM
   Right. Most of the people participating in the "international" F2B working group are willing to actually address various issues, people with your bigoted "Ugly American" stereotypes ignore most of it, reject it based on who proposed it instead of the merits, and prevent any progress from being made. That is *exactly* what seems to happen at Derek's mystery committee.

    We know all that. But we are still plugging away, dumb fat lazy types as we are, because we are still stupid enough to figure that you might actually want to listen to someone who has 10x more experience. It's just as much *our* event as it is yours or anyone else's - not to mention *we invented it and perfected it*, at which point "the world" just copied the 1959 AMA rule book and slapped "FAI" on it and later claimed to be the experts on it. Also not to mention (and *just exactly like world affairs) it appears that AMA members pay lion's share of the dues for the FAI to exist at all.

    But no, just accept the status quo, because the "leaders" figure it all out, what can we do, throw up our hands?  We don't accept this, it is culturally repellent to settle for a lesser solution just because it seems too hard. Fortunately, not many of your fellow countrymen take this tack, nor do stunt fliers in general (no matter where they are).

   By the way, have you ever considered the *reason* people such as yourself dismiss us all out of hand? Because there's a very good and fairly obvious answer to that question, and it has far more to do with you than it does with us.

   This is all OT, start a thread entitled "People from the USA are whiners/stupid/pushy" and we will have a lively debate. But that's probably too hard, and you might not win, so don't even try.

     Brett

Not much to add to what Brett said except your attitude is why we kicked most of YOUR ancestors out of our country over 200 years ago!
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on August 04, 2018, 12:44:34 PM
Every two years after the World's we have the same complaints mainly from AMA pilots.
The rest of the World flys FAI.....................get over it and live with it.
The rest of the World is NOT going to do what The US wants....................sounds familiar?? S?P
Flew 6 times this morning and on every flight I made a perfect landing 1/2 lap after the engine quit and it felt GOOD!

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 04, 2018, 12:57:08 PM
Flew 6 times this morning and on every flight I made a perfect landing 1/2 lap after the engine quit and it felt GOOD!

Ken

Hi Ken

But for  FAI  it is  not when the  engine  quits, it does not start, until and  when you  reach 1.5 meters  of  elevation

Regards
Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on August 04, 2018, 02:04:05 PM
Hi Ken

But for  FAI  it is  not when the  engine  quits, it does not start, until and  when you  reach 1.5 meters  of  elevation

Regards
Randy
So that is why you never see a plane named for a dead horse!

Ken
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 04, 2018, 02:29:55 PM
Derek I don’t take it that way at all.  It’s not better or worse- just different.  We can’t square dance at a ballet contest and expect to finish well.   FAI isn’t pretty- it’s sort of harsh flying by our standards (at present) and if we want to whoop ‘em we’ll have to play their game.

Dave

I do not  see where you and others are getting that from, I just watched several WC  patterns, and  the current World Champion's  pattern  and  i do NOT  see corners that are  harder  than many I see at the  US NATs.
And   "IF"  they are  giving extra points for  4 ft bottoms, as stated, Then they are  WRONG, the rules  state  5 ft ( 1.5 M)
I also see Chris has  45 degree  tricks  that look  as  good in size as the  other  top flyers

I also saw that the  current  WC  is  an excellent flyer !

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 04, 2018, 02:32:33 PM
So that is why you never see a plane named for a dead horse!

Ken

Are you talking about  Whipped or  Stinky ?  :-)
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brett Buck on August 04, 2018, 02:32:58 PM

But for  FAI  it is  not when the  engine  quits, it does not start, until and  when you  reach 1.5 meters  of  elevation

   Which provides a good solution, fly the high-overhead flight cutoff loop, then dive while whipping, until you are going about 80 mph when you hit 5 feet. Why that is in any way better than just letting the engine quit and doing a smooth landing, is beyond me.

    Brett
   
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 04, 2018, 02:37:12 PM
   Which provides a good solution, fly the high-overhead flight cutoff loop, then dive while whipping, until you are going about 80 mph when you hit 5 feet. Why that is in any way better than just letting the engine quit and doing a smooth landing, is beyond me.

    Brett
   

That is  about  exactly what I did  the past couple times I flew in our Team Selection contest, it  was  the   only way  i could make the plane go 1 lap, looks  weird, and  the  abrupt change as I entered 5 ft  didn't look right, but it the way to do it

as a side note  I see  many did not make the one lap  at the  WCs  either

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ken Culbertson on August 04, 2018, 04:43:52 PM
Are you talking about  Whipped or  Stinky ?  :-)
Old saying from my parents list of old sayings - "You Can't Whip A Dead Horse"
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: roy cherry on August 04, 2018, 11:23:34 PM
hello every body i have been following these post as i was an observer at the recent worlds at landres the guy that won was the best flyer there  also  the argument about k facters i think that these should be taken away from f a i on these grounds if you fly well  but get a thermal come through  on your square eight and get blown out and loose tension you will get a low score and then loose the hole flight you will not be able to get it together  to score well in the rest off the flight to recover  this is particuler bad at landres where all the trees are  turbulant this also works the other way  as you can get a good bonus if you get agood bit of air in the latter part of the flight   the  fai landing is a farce as if you try to whip the model for a lap you will get a bit off lift some where this always makes an up down bouncy landing it is better in my view to do a short smooth  landing that isent a whole lap  this should score higher but dosent always   that my two pennyworth       roy cherry 
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Keith Renecle on August 04, 2018, 11:31:57 PM
I do not  see where you and others are getting that from, I just watched several WC  patterns, and  the current World Champion's  pattern  and  i do NOT  see corners that are  harder  than many I see at the  US NATs.
And   "IF"  they are  giving extra points for  4 ft bottoms, as stated, Then they are  WRONG, the rules  state  5 ft ( 1.5 M)
I also see Chris has  45 degree  tricks  that look  as  good in size as the  other  top flyers

I also saw that the  current  WC  is  an excellent flyer !

Randy

Good point Randy! I get to speak to many judges and most of them agree that 4 foot pull-outs are hard to repeat because most of the time the pilot will get it wrong and go under that minimum tolerance. The rules state 5 ft. with a tolerance of 1 foot either way. Those marker boards show 4 to 6 feet with the black line at 5 ft. So flying just under that 4 ft. level should be scored the same as flying over 6 ft. One of Orestes flights on the grass circle had many pull-outs under 4 ft. and his score showed it. He scored 988.7 instead of his usual 1000+ points. I have some video footage from Spain in 2006 and Yuriy Yatsenko hit a 2 foot bottom in his reverse wingover with a dead flat pull-out and he stayed right there. I was willing to bet that he could not go back the other way and still hit another 2 ft. pull-out...........he did! It was amazing to watch but it did not score well. Such reflexes!!

I can see from the posts above that discussing K-factors could be worse than politics and religion, so I'll tread lightly here.  #^ I have yet to meet an F2B judge or pilot that considers K-factors when judging or flying. The judges just give their scores and the tabulators or computers worry about K-Factors. For pilots, it is just what it is, and again I have yet to meet a pilot that tries harder on the high K-factor maneuvers. I have done a lot of training through the years with judges and pilots and I have never stressed adding any emphasis on the K-factors. It is just part of the FAI F2B system and we are stuck with it. It has been voted on a few times that I can remember and the vast majority of pilots voted to keep it. The argument as to whether it actually does the desired job is debatable but until the majority vote to get rid of it, we just have to use the system as it is. The same pilots will still go to the top with or without it!

Keith R
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 06, 2018, 09:05:04 AM

Russell, I think you should come to the next US Nationals and see for yourself.  You will have your choice of former world champions to molest, as is your wont.

I think Russell does not concentrate only on former world champions.

... you never know where he travels all days ...

(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/jennifer-lopez-funny-fashion-photoshoot-senan-byrne-21-5b680d578dcc4__700.jpg)

(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/jennifer-lopez-funny-fashion-photoshoot-senan-byrne-20-5b680d5477093__700.jpg)
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on August 06, 2018, 12:07:44 PM
HHmmmmmmmm>>>

Personally I think she should come to the US Nationals also!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Lauri Malila on August 06, 2018, 01:05:07 PM
Now the 4 feet bottom is ok?
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Randy Cuberly on August 06, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
HUH?
Everything looks OK to me.  Guess when you get to be my age you're less choosy and more appreciative!   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: RandySmith on August 06, 2018, 02:44:46 PM
I think Russell does not concentrate only on former world champions.

... you never know where he travels all days ...

(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/jennifer-lopez-funny-fashion-photoshoot-senan-byrne-21-5b680d578dcc4__700.jpg)

(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/jennifer-lopez-funny-fashion-photoshoot-senan-byrne-20-5b680d5477093__700.jpg)

I hope this fashion statement  is  more  about  poking  FUN at the  "pants below the crack" crowd , and  NOT promoting  it !!

BUT  she is a moron some times 

Randy
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Igor Burger on August 06, 2018, 03:25:41 PM
This is not fashion statement, this is evidence that Russell was there around somewhere (before she was depanted)  ;D
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Russell Bond on August 06, 2018, 03:46:18 PM
Igor, I don't know WHAT you mean??!!  #^ #^ #^ #^
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Ted Fancher on August 06, 2018, 03:54:48 PM
Without the high heels her bottoms would only be 3.5 feet. n~ n~

On the other hand, without the high heels her K-factor would only be six instead of 10. 

Decisions, decisions.  It ain't easy bein' a gurl, I guess.

Ted
Title: Re: F2B World Championships
Post by: Brian Hampton on August 06, 2018, 08:14:02 PM
   Which provides a good solution, fly the high-overhead flight cutoff loop, then dive while whipping, until you are going about 80 mph when you hit 5 feet. Why that is in any way better than just letting the engine quit and doing a smooth landing, is beyond me.
My solution for the FAI landing (which is all I've ever flown by) is to have a 6 minute engine run and knowing that on the last few seconds as the tank empties the engine would speed up to a full 2 stroke (more speed). After the clover I'd then fly level at 5 foot until the engine stopped which then allowed me to judge my touchdown point and also give the judges the same observation. The level 5 foot laps before engine stop removes any judgement as to the actual point (and height) where landing begins and ends. With that all said I'd prefer that the one lap glide be gotten rid of and just use whatever descent rate is preferred by the individual.