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Author Topic: F2B World Championships  (Read 31231 times)

Offline proparc

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2018, 10:26:58 AM »

If there is what I am disapointed from is fact that there are too many purchased models on top. Looks like it is getting to be "toy" event, not "modeling" anymore  :'(

Starting to get just like F3A. Looks like Peter and the board got the new rule in just in time. y1
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline RandySmith

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2018, 10:30:17 AM »
  " I think you have been doing a great job of trying to get the right sorts of agreements and to air the different points of view. You group is the obvious starting place for what is desperately needed - an FAI F2B Rules committee, that votes on it, and the votes are binding and become rules. The AMA has had that for 35 years or so. But as long as it's just advisory, we can come up with whatever we want, and it doesn't make any difference.

     Brett "

 Brett .. EXACTLY,  this is the reason  I have  no desire to get more involved, until there is a  "open"  way to talk about, change, amend rules , for the benefit of F2B may i say,  We are  not  going to get anything done, and the  frustration will continue. WHY can it not be made  public, how the secret people and  secret meetings happen, and  who are the ones that  have the power to do this? WHY does the  FAI  let the organisation be ran this way?

I would add I am the  FAI F2B  Team selection committee Chairperson, and  the  FAi F2B district representative,  There are  RULES  for  us on this committee, and  things just cannot  be   bypassed  in secret because someone doesn't like them,  or  they do not want things ran that way.  Rules are necessary, so is a logical way to enact them   
Thanks to Brett for his post, this explains what happens  VERY clearly, and  the history of  how things happen in the  FAI

Randy Smith

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2018, 10:50:46 AM »
Starting to get just like F3A. Looks like Peter and the board got the new rule in just in time. y1

   Did he/they(us, actually)?  The rule we/F2B group proposed got neutered:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/f2b-world-championships/msg526488/#msg526488

which I will quote with commentary:

Quote

By e-mail and prior to the 2018 CIAM Plenary Meeting the members of the FAI  F2 Subcommittee voted 13 for and 6 against on the original swiss proposal which suggested the addition of BOM bonus points to the flight score.

   Which is where it should have ended. The rule should have been adopted at that point, for the 2019 rulebook.

However:


Quote
Later, at time of the Technical Meeting from April 27 2018 in Lausanne, it was found that:

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for pilots flying non BOM compatible airplanes is discriminating for a substantially large percentage of the participants at FAI F2B contests.

•   the lack of BOM bonus points for flyers competing with all kinds of models provided by or borrowed from others may have a demotivating effect on newcomers.

The delegates present (6) have therefore modified the proposal accordingly by removing the wording allowing the addition of bonus points to flight scores. The related voting was 6 for and 0 against. The revised version of the Concours d’Elégance F2B proposal was then submitted to the Plenary Meeting from April 28. The Delegates representing 37 countries have unanimously accepted the modified proposal. It will be set in force by January 1st. 2019.



  So, as has happened to nearly every consequential change that the F2B group has ever come up with, the proposal was made, then later, 6 people no one appears to be able to name, and with unknown motives, and  no opportunity for feedback or modification, it was altered to defeat the purpose by the fine gentlemen who managed to make it to the resort in Lausanne.

   As an aside, note the use of the "tactical syntax". This change does not "demotivate" anyone to use a borrowed/bought airplane, it "motivates" everyone to build their airplanes, while permitting them to continue participating in the interim.

    This is why Bill Lee, our CIAM representative, called the process a "joke", this is why I was upset, and what Randy was talking about.

   I have been an FAI member on and off since (I think) 1977 - longer than I have been an AMA member. An even less legitimate process with no votes at all has made it impossible for me to even be a member, or involved with an FAI team.

    Brett

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2018, 10:59:15 AM »
Who were the delegates from 37 countries who UNANIMOUSLY voted for the proposed change? 

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2018, 11:43:24 AM »
Who were the delegates from 37 countries who UNANIMOUSLY voted for the proposed change? 

 That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2018, 03:46:21 PM »
I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them are FRENCH, and wealthy and want to insure that all FAI decisions are made by Frenchmen!

After all they know better than anyone else what is RIGHT!  Don't believe me...just ask one!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2018, 03:56:33 PM »
That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett

That was an absolutely incredible post Brett. It leads me right back to the reason I view our Nat's as the most important contest on the planet. It's the only one you can trust!

Derek

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2018, 04:27:11 PM »
It leads me right back to the reason I view our Nat's as the most important contest on the planet. It's the only one you can trust!

   It is indeed a sad situation when the problems and solutions are generally understood and agreed to by all concerned, and vetted by the *FAI's own working group of acknowledged experts*, but you can't actually get the rules changed, because people *who have nothing to do with the event* can thwart it at their whim.

     Brett

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2018, 06:36:52 PM »


Might be some hope for the events future , anyway . Theyre not all grumpy olde fartes .

If she's still Jnr Eligable at the Next W/C , somebody'd better supply her with a hot @#$% high tech top line snot mobile ,
that should cut the ice , being not B.o.M. Requirement . Cant go to a gunfight with a pocket knife .   S?P

Comeone , put some SUPPORT behind them . More than one Jnr. in the U.S. ??

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2018, 06:43:49 PM »
Great picture!

Tom
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2018, 09:24:09 PM »
That's a very good question, and raises others.

How many of those were even aware that the rule change had been altered, and from what?

Who are the 6 people who decided to misunderstand the proposal and alter it on their own volition. ? 

Who are any of these people, and what qualifies them to vote on rules in an event where the acknowledged experts have already determined the path forward?

Who elects them and how are they unelected if they are not serving F2B?   

How can we get the technical committee meetings moved from Lausanne, Switzerland to the conference room at the Muncie Signature Inn?  That's more than idle wise-assery - having it as a resort in the Alps ensures that these boondoggle trips (which could easily be handled by teleconference of email, or even regular mail) become the goal of the exercise, meaning that the goal is not primarily to do the job they are ostensibly sent to do. Hold it in a less-desirable location (no offense to the fine people of Muncie, but we are talking about the Swiss Alps vs steak at the Roadhouse, with a stop by Dairy Queen afterwards) and you remove the desperate need to maintain your position on the subcommittee, unless you really care about the content. 

   Don't expect any good answers to any of those questions, and even if you knew the answers, it wouldn't matter, because you are just the revenue source - you don't actually get any say or control over the process, that is left to the august personages in the FAI bureaucracy.

    By the way, as analogies they love - the FAI views itself as a "supranational" governing body, and proudly equate themselves with the International Olympic Committee and the United Nations  - the two most infamously corrupt international organizations you could possibly imagine. In fact, if you read the link above carefully, you will find that it is in fact in some way associated with the IOC.

    The Chicago Olympics bid failed because even Chicago machine politician and US President Barack Obama failed to be corrupt enough to land it, the IOC opting instead for Brazil - where the effort destroyed what little was good about Rio, and the entire government later fell under scandal.

The UN  - well, the UN exists primarily to extract money from the US treasury, while simultaneously finding ways to condemn the concepts and principles underlying Western civilization.

   The latter is particularly apt, because, wonder of wonders, the AMA is far and away the largest of the elements of the NAA, and as a result,  the NAA is far and away the largest of the National Aero Clubs that form the FAI. So, I am sure we pay our share of dues, when they hold their hands out, but when it comes time to decide, we are the "country cousins". Just like the UN, indeed.

   I ask again - why do international stunt fliers need the FAI to run stunt contests for us? Can anyone answer that without accepting that their seal of approval makes it "official"? How does it help us, what benefit does it provide?

    Brett

It's insight like this to the situation at hand in the current and past FAI setup that generally makes me want to stay away from the going to the TT and trying for the FAI Team all together and focus on Event 322. Yet there is that subtle allure.....

Thank you for your information BB I read your stuff and pay attention as best I can.
Doug Moon
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #161 on: August 01, 2018, 01:16:02 AM »
Hi Doug,

Apart from all of these conspiracy things above, I would suggest that you give the world champs at least one go. It is a hellavu experience. I have not yet emailed Rich Oliver since returning home but besides his engine issues with fuel and things, I reckon that he will still say that it was a great experience. Joe Gilbert would also agree I'm sure. You are a top-class pilot and will do very well at world champs level, so think about it.

Regards,
Keith R
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #162 on: August 01, 2018, 07:44:06 AM »


Might be some hope for the events future , anyway . Theyre not all grumpy olde fartes .

If she's still Jnr Eligable at the Next W/C , somebody'd better supply her with a hot @#$% high tech top line snot mobile ,
that should cut the ice , being not B.o.M. Requirement . Cant go to a gunfight with a pocket knife .   S?P

Comeone , put some SUPPORT behind them . More than one Jnr. in the U.S. ??
Matt you make a good point,  but that is exactly what my point is about requiring BOM for (and only for) the WC in FAI.   I can tell you it took a fund raising campaign just to get her there.  Some of those airplanes and equipment those KIDS are flying cost more than her trip, and say nothing about whether they know what a tube of glue is.  Not many wealthy benefactors over here in our sport. I am starting to see that the problem is too much money has already been invested 'over there' on RTF that it would be suicide to tell these people they can't use them now.  Your point taken though-the slab sided fuse airplane lacks luster next to the full-bodied airplanes.  That will be the new 'trend' this side of the pond.
They don't fly better-just look more impressive doing so.


Dave
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 08:09:08 AM by Dave_Trible »
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #163 on: August 01, 2018, 09:25:33 AM »
Dave said "They don't fly better-just look more impressive doing so." Hmmmm..... Dave, they do fly a hellavu lot better than most of the home built models, especially if the junior's build them. I've flown loads of other people's models through the years that were built from kits, and plans of the world's best stunt planes, and most of these RTF models are way better. I've flown Impacts, SV-11's, Trivial Pursuit's, Thunder Gazer's etc. built by modelers that build very well, but I'll put money on it and state that they don't usually fly like Paul's Impact, Randy's SV-11, Ted's Trivial Pursuit, or Dave's Thunder Gazer. If you have access to one of the great stunt folks and they can help to sort out your model then it's possible to duplicate such good performance, but if that is not possible then you build the kit or the scratch-built good design and you just don't really know how good it should be. In most cases it will have a very average performance.

So now these Yatsenko models come built and trimmed close to perfection. Each one will be flown and trimmed by Yuriy or Andrey and they are very competitive right out of the box. I can't talk for the other RTF composite models because I've never flown one. This is why these junior's and many seniors score so well in a short space of time. For us here in South Africa we have to multiply the Euro by 15 for our currency so the price is out of the vast majority's budget. I would love to own one of Yuriy's Yak 55's complete with that growling Discovery Retro .68 engine but this would cost 45 grand in our money. Our money previously around the time of President Carter was 1:1 to US$. Just a dream..............

I agree totally with the downside to all of this, and also agree in principle with the BOM rule because it does help to produce more people with special skills. I'm just saying that it is not easy to build a really good stunter with everything all working together to make a great high performance model that can compete with these RTF models.

Keith R
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #164 on: August 01, 2018, 10:14:24 AM »
In the photo of the juniors there are only 3 ready to fly models. The rest are Russo’s and wood.
Jose modesto

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #165 on: August 01, 2018, 10:27:00 AM »
Keith your point taken but I am of a mind that is more about trimming the airplane to fly well.  It's true that is done for you in these merchandise airplanes.  I also think the learning curve including the trimming process should be a part of being called "World Champ".  There is nothing really in aerodynamics making these machines superior and in fact slogging that chunk around in the wind may be more problematic.  This assumes the homebuilt airplane is built straight without major flaws.  It is also true that no two fly exactly alike.  If there is a quantum leap here, it's that you can hand one of these to just about anyone and it will accelerate their flight training greatly and allow more time to simply practice the pattern and 'show' more impressively.  Not taking anything away from the great fliers you've mentioned there are many other good airplanes out there too.  I would hazard that most anything flying in our Top 20 would be capable of flying in this category on any given day.  Notice I said FLYING-not always catching your eye like some of these new molded machines.

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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #166 on: August 01, 2018, 10:57:51 AM »
I totally agree Dave. Once you can build a really good, straight model then it's down to trimming, but man that takes many years to figure out.....even with PW's amazing trimming chart. The obvious shortcut is to hang around one of the hotshots and get loads of help. I've also heard most of the top guys state that they had models that just would not perform to their high standard, so for the up and coming pilots, they just have very little chance to get that good to actually feel that their creation that took many months to build is actually not trimmed well enough to take them any further.

In 2000 at the world champs in Landres just btw, I sat with Yuriy and Andrey and I asked Yuriy what the secret is with his Classic that tracks on rails and turns like lightning. He replied....."ahhh, the answer is simple.........everything!" Then he went on to say that everything has to work together at the same time to fly such a good pattern.........including the pilot! It is only a small minority that will attain that level of building, trimming and flying. This is what makes them true champions.

Keith R
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #167 on: August 01, 2018, 10:58:15 AM »
In the photo of the juniors there are only 3 ready to fly models. The rest are Russo’s and wood.
Jose modesto

Jose, depends what you call "RTF". There are also wood RTFs given to kids to fly WCh ... and trimmed already. I know, because it was also case of our junior (missing on the picture). It is simply so, model given by sponsor, daddy, team mate etc will fly better than model built and trimmed by the kid (yes I count with help of experienced coach). That and plus fact that RTF users not need spent time by trimming etc was reason why we wanted +10 points for BOM models, unfortunately torpedoed. Well, that is the way, kids will get models, they will fly it and when pocket or guys around will "outfly" all available models, kids will disappear. That is that "encouraging" new flyers by RTF models.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #168 on: August 01, 2018, 11:16:48 AM »
Jose, depends what you call "RTF". There are also wood RTFs given to kids to fly WCh ... and trimmed already. I know, because it was also case of our junior (missing on the picture). It is simply so, model given by sponsor, daddy, team mate etc will fly better than model built and trimmed by the kid (yes I count with help of experienced coach). That and plus fact that RTF users not need spent time by trimming etc was reason why we wanted +10 points for BOM models, unfortunately torpedoed. Well, that is the way, kids will get models, they will fly it and when pocket or guys around will "outfly" all available models, kids will disappear. That is that "encouraging" new flyers by RTF models.

Yes it is unfortunate. 10 points is not a big deal in FAI. Not as much as AMA anyways.

You really need to come to our Nat's Igor, we would love to have you here.

Derek

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #169 on: August 01, 2018, 12:53:16 PM »
Yes it is unfortunate. 10 points is not a big deal in FAI. Not as much as AMA anyways.

You really need to come to our Nat's Igor, we would love to have you here.

Derek

Igor was here in 2004 and flew at our Nats.

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #170 on: August 01, 2018, 01:09:52 PM »

(Clip)
I would hazard that most anything flying in our Top 20 would be capable of flying in this category on any given day. 

(Clip)

Dave

Dave,

I might not understand the context of your statement.  If you are talking about models/pilots flying in our top 20, I have the following observations to offer.

Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.  Furthermore, with the electrics and their ability to turn with the premium to do so amplified by the FAI K factors, what we saw in Landres this year was jaw dropping and eye opining.

Keith

Offline Norvaldo

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #171 on: August 01, 2018, 02:29:00 PM »
Norvald Olsvold

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #172 on: August 01, 2018, 03:37:51 PM »
Dave,

I might not understand the context of your statement.  If you are talking about models/pilots flying in our top 20, I have the following observations to offer.

Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.  Furthermore, with the electrics and their ability to turn with the premium to do so amplified by the FAI K factors, what we saw in Landres this year was jaw dropping and eye opining.

Keith
Hi Keith.  I was more speaking to the airplanes themselves than what the pilots were doing.  Some of our stuff may need to be re-trimmed to fly hard corners etc., but are capable in most cases.  Yes our pilots may need some re-trimming too!  That will start here at home with an understanding of what we are aiming for.  If we keep doing it 'our way' and the judges at the Worlds aren't buying that then we shouldn't expect THEM to change.  We must adapt.  I for one am still not convinced you need an electric to do that.  Save for the engine I am using I might concede the point.  More so than ever, we may need to train separately and in a different way than for the Nats and might have to choose which you are going to concentrate on since you may need a different style here to get to the top.  This older dog can learn new tricks-slowly.  BTW new fuselage molds are under construction in my shop as I write this.

Dave
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #173 on: August 01, 2018, 03:41:00 PM »
Igor was here in 2004 and flew at our Nats.

I was there too. I was just inviting him back.

Derek

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #174 on: August 01, 2018, 04:27:56 PM »
So now these Yatsenko models come built and trimmed close to perfection. Each one will be flown and trimmed by Yuriy or Andrey and they are very competitive right out of the box.

Not a single model on the photo is made by Yatsenko's. Not one.
The Ukranian kid flew Solomianikov's old model. It was a present from Mr. Solomianikov and cost nothing to kid.
Russian kid flew model built by Russian national champion and cost nothing to kid.
Chinese Junior flew model built by top Chinese fliers who copied Yatsenko design but is 100% Chinese.
The only model that was bought on that picture is the Bulgarian girl who flew a model produced by Mr. Leonidov. The entire Bulgarian national team contributed to buy the model.

There is a tradition in the world of top fliers presenting their models to Juniors who will represent their country.

Abi
السلام عليكم

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #175 on: August 02, 2018, 12:35:15 AM »
Hi Abi, thanks for that info. My statement was not directed to that photo. It was just a general statement about how good these RTF Yatsenko models are. I sure did not know that the Chinese junior's Gee Bee was actually built by the Chinese guys. That's impressive!

Keith R
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #176 on: August 02, 2018, 12:36:39 AM »
I took some photos.
Posted here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146237914@N08/albums/72157699341811365

Thanks Norvald, nice photo's. The action shot of the SBach with the "dihedral" is impressive!
Keith R

Offline Christoph Holtermann

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #177 on: August 02, 2018, 03:08:58 AM »
Keith,

you should have explained that the "dihdral" was not intentional but poor Dan lost the lower bolt/screw of his outboard wing. So it was a Shark, not an SBach what this photo shows.

The impressive  part of this was however that Andreij Yatsenko, jumped immediately after Dan's landing to his plane, examined it, picked a reserve bolt from his car and repaired Dan's plane within 5 minutes after his landing.

No one asked Andreij to do that, it was his understanding of sportsmanship to help his costumers. What nice sportsmen the Yatsenkos are and maybe that is another reason why so many fly their plans.

Christoph

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #178 on: August 02, 2018, 07:08:47 AM »
"non non non, Américains stupides..."

Unfortunately, it seems that perception is becoming more and more frequent (and vocal) among the nations.

Also, unfortunately, we (Americans) as a society, are giving such perceptions heavy ammunition for use at will, thus we are a "target rich" environment in which to go "stupid" hunting. Armed with such ammunition, it doesn't take much of a hunt, and it's guaranteed you'll easily bag your limit of "stupid" among the ranks in our beloved America.

 LL~

This has been an interesting thread. IMHO, any event that depends upon subjectivity (the eyes of judges and conformance to many tech rules), are tough nuts to crack. Some, more so than others. Amazing our US fliers can do as well as they do given the odds against them I'm beginning see via this thread.

Andre
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #179 on: August 02, 2018, 07:53:20 AM »
Just thrown out as a thought- if we are concerned about our competition in world events perhaps a few FAI contests flown here instead of JUST the Team Trials would:
1. Expose more to it and help train/recruit more to jump in.
2.  Allow for now the (dare I say) non-BOM airplanes and fliers to compete.
3. Provide a training opportunity for FAI judges.

Here I simply don’t have a suitable facility or I’d do it.  Maybe elsewhere.

Dave
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #180 on: August 02, 2018, 09:02:24 AM »
Dave. In the late 1980’s to early 1990’s the US nationals were dominated by 3 flyers Walker,Casale and ted  Fancher the other top pilot was Bob Baron
These men flew hard corner patterns and were rewarded with high scores. The smooth guys could make top 5 but generally could not win.
The judges of that time valued a hard tight pattern.
The FAI judging as currently practiced values hard corners with low bottoms.
Our nationally trained judging values smooth with moderate corners over hard 4’ pattern.
You don’t get additional points for tight flying.
There was a thread recently that discussed this topic of hard corners not being valued as equal to softer smoother flying.
If you run an FAI contest with AMA judges it will not help you prepare for an FAI contest.
1) judges must value hard corners with great flat exits and 4’ bottoms
You must recruit Paul Walker as FAI team,chief trainer of judging,flyers etc. he is the closes we have to the way they fly at the worlds. Orestes would be #2 on my list.
If you want to dominate AMA David Fitz is your guy. Flauless flyers with good corner, Hard to beat in AMA.
This is my observation of AMA vs FAI
Jose modesto


Online Brett Buck

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #181 on: August 02, 2018, 09:05:24 AM »
"non non non, Américains stupides..."

Unfortunately, it seems that perception is becoming more and more frequent (and vocal) among the nations.

   Also unfortuntately, there is an entire segment of the US population who thinks it's the height of fashion to do the same. Everything we have done or do, its because of all those "stupid" or "deplorable" Americans, that are so dumb they don't even know enough to feel guilty for being American. And the news media is leading the way.

     American and the founding precepts of the USA has been the greatest advance in human civilization since the agricultural revolution. Most the remaining issues we have are being intentionally stoked, because if they were resolved, what would people have to be aggrieved about?

   That's a different thread, of course.

     Brett

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #182 on: August 02, 2018, 09:17:00 AM »
Chinese Junior flew model built by top Chinese fliers who copied Yatsenko design but is 100% Chinese.

As far as I know Letong flew Yatsenko model (Gee Bee) with colors designed by his daddy. They tried to build their composite model, but it failed, so few days before W. champ they got model from Yatsenko.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2018, 09:18:59 AM »
Keith,

you should have explained that the "dihdral" was not intentional but poor Dan lost the lower bolt/screw of his outboard wing. So it was a Shark, not an SBach what this photo shows.

The impressive  part of this was however that Andreij Yatsenko, jumped immediately after Dan's landing to his plane, examined it, picked a reserve bolt from his car and repaired Dan's plane within 5 minutes after his landing.

No one asked Andreij to do that, it was his understanding of sportsmanship to help his costumers. What nice sportsmen the Yatsenkos are and maybe that is another reason why so many fly their plans.


Probably he knew exactly what is going on, because exactly the same thing happened to him in Hungaria few years later :- )))

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
Over the years, I have been a judge at 5 of our Nats and 7 of our Team trials as well as the ED at 5 other Team Trials.  When I was a judge at the World Championships in 78, 82 and 84, my feelings were that anyone in our top 10 could be in the top 15 of the World Championships at that time.  I have attended 5 other World Championships since that time.  The rest of the world has caught up.  Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.

This is funny ... EXACTLY same feeling I have after return home, looks like I did not move forward last years and rest of the world is slowly running around me and I must think how get them again :- ))))))))))

... or just go retirement :- ))))))))))))))))

... we will see what can winter bring, either surprise (and I will try to make it surprise) or nothing, it will tell me if I am flyer or coach in Wloclawek 2020 :- )))

Offline frank williams

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2018, 09:40:09 AM »
"There is a tradition in the world of top fliers presenting their models to Juniors who will represent their country."

Interesting ..... I think I witnessed a transfer of a former WC's plane to a junior at this years Nats.  Maybe there's hope for the US.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2018, 10:22:23 AM »
Dave. In the late 1980’s to early 1990’s the US nationals were dominated by 3 flyers Walker,Casale and ted  Fancher the other top pilot was Bob Baron
These men flew hard corner patterns and were rewarded with high scores. The smooth guys could make top 5 but generally could not win.
The judges of that time valued a hard tight pattern.
The FAI judging as currently practiced values hard corners with low bottoms.
Our nationally trained judging values smooth with moderate corners over hard 4’ pattern.
You don’t get additional points for tight flying.
There was a thread recently that discussed this topic of hard corners not being valued as equal to softer smoother flying.
If you run an FAI contest with AMA judges it will not help you prepare for an FAI contest.
1) judges must value hard corners with great flat exits and 4’ bottoms
You must recruit Paul Walker as FAI team,chief trainer of judging,flyers etc. he is the closes we have to the way they fly at the worlds. Orestes would be #2 on my list.
If you want to dominate AMA David Fitz is your guy. Flauless flyers with good corner, Hard to beat in AMA.
This is my observation of AMA vs FAI
Jose modesto
Yes Jose that’s what I was getting at about training FAI style judges.  Not sure the same people could or would want to do both.  Our guys do a super job at AMA judging.  Apparently we need a few who will be as good at judging the way they are ‘yonder’.  How else will our flight crew learn to fly that way.

Dave
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2018, 10:45:21 AM »
Dave. One way is for AMA judges to return to our past were the corner has an appropriate value.
The pattern is not different in AMA compared to FAI.
A square maneuver does not have radious corners it has a sharp 90 degree transition
He  who flys closer to that ideal should be rewarded. In AMA it is not valued the same.
We have changed
We have a rich history of corner men Schaffer,Cassale,Walker, 1970’sHunt, Fancher,1990’s Dave Fitz,windy, and many more.
Let’s reclaim that history.
It starts with judging trining to value the corner again.
We are in the Dave Fitz era now, he will dominate as Walker did in the 90’s

 Davis has a very good corner now. He will be hard to beat no matter what the judging changes are.
Watch for Rudd if he gets a plane. He can fly AMA.
Jose modesto
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2018, 10:51:12 AM »
Now, our top 5 would have a hard time to consistently make it to the top 15.

Keith

I strongly disagree with this statement.

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #189 on: August 02, 2018, 10:58:14 AM »
I'm just blown away with where this conversation has gone. I guess all of us USA/AMA hacks should just pack it up and find a new hobby. Chris made the top five for the first time last year, then went to the world's and did extremely well for a first time senior competitor, but we are supposed to believe that our AMA pattern is obsolete? If you want to do well at the Nat's, a soft pattern isn't going to cut it, but if you read this thread you would think we are all beginners flying ringmaster's.

Derek

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #190 on: August 02, 2018, 11:15:27 AM »
Derek I don’t take it that way at all.  It’s not better or worse- just different.  We can’t square dance at a ballet contest and expect to finish well.   FAI isn’t pretty- it’s sort of harsh flying by our standards (at present) and if we want to whoop ‘em we’ll have to play their game.

Dave
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #191 on: August 02, 2018, 12:12:21 PM »
After reading all of this I have the solution.
Those in the USA who want to fork out the dough to travel around he world to fly the WCs-100 fliers on 2 circles- all you have to do is video your self doing a climb and dive. Send it to Randy and he will choose the team according to who has the sharpest corner. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 03:22:21 PM by Doug Moon »
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #192 on: August 02, 2018, 12:13:53 PM »
Derek I don’t take it that way at all.  It’s not better or worse- just different.  We can’t square dance at a ballet contest and expect to finish well.   FAI isn’t pretty- it’s sort of harsh flying by our standards (at present) and if we want to whoop ‘em we’ll have to play their game.

Dave

Last time, that was the standard. They might be looking for shape and 45 degrees next time. Maybe they will like black and red planes, or just electric in two years.

Derek

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #193 on: August 02, 2018, 01:05:51 PM »
After reading all of this I have the solution.
Those in the USA who want to fork out the dough to travel around he world to fly the WCs-100 fliers on 2 circles- all you have to do is video your self doing a climb and dive. Send it to Randy and he will choose the team accordingly. Sounds pretty simple to me.
I like it.  Then we could spend a year of endless criticizing and debate over his choices. Just think of the bandwidth we could waste - Priceless.

Ken
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #194 on: August 02, 2018, 01:43:28 PM »
Our guys do a super job at AMA judging.  Apparently we need a few who will be as good at judging the way they are ‘yonder’.  How else will our flight crew learn to fly that way.

Dave

Simple  , just read the rule book and  try to fly as close to it as you can, this is the  way  I have  always  tried to coach my guys, and  everyone should try to fly, as close to a rule book pattern as possible. It  WILL  pay off.  NO matter  where you are, Worlds, or  AMA NATs .
I will also say anyone who goes  to fly the  US NATs  or  the  Worlds, better  fly a tight 45 degree pattern with sharp corners
The  WCs  judges , and  ALL others should  also  go by the  rules, not change what they want to see  every cycle
and  may i add  1.5 meters  is  5 ft elevation      DEAD in the middle of our 4 to 6 ft range, again this is where  I train to fly bottoms

Randy

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #195 on: August 02, 2018, 03:21:50 PM »
Simple  , just read the rule book and  try to fly as close to it as you can, this is the  way  I have  always  tried to coach my guys, and  everyone should try to fly, as close to a rule book pattern as possible. It  WILL  pay off.  NO matter  where you are, Worlds, or  AMA NATs .
I will also say anyone who goes  to fly the  US NATs  or  the  Worlds, better  fly a tight 45 degree pattern with sharp corners
The  WCs  judges , and  ALL others should  also  go by the  rules, not change what they want to see  every cycle
and  may i add  1.5 meters  is  5 ft elevation      DEAD in the middle of our 4 to 6 ft range, again this is where  I train to fly bottoms

Randy

That is right on the money!! 

But...as some have pointed out that once the judges have looked at 60 patterns in a day they are naturally going to start looking at 1 aspect and that will rule the day.

But there are some who feel the system is fine as is and this type of work load is fine no need for a change so we are good.

100 fliers 2 circles...... smh
Doug Moon
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Offline Russell Bond

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #196 on: August 02, 2018, 04:55:43 PM »
In the FAI pattern it states that the manoeuvres have to look correct to the pilot and therefore look "wrong" to the judges, is it the same for the AMA pattern or do the manoeuvres have to look correct to the judges?
The FAI changed about 10 years ago for some reason which now makes judging harder.
Bandolero

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #197 on: August 02, 2018, 05:29:34 PM »
In the FAI pattern it states that the manoeuvres have to look correct to the pilot and therefore look "wrong" to the judges, is it the same for the AMA pattern or do the manoeuvres have to look correct to the judges?
The FAI changed about 10 years ago for some reason which now makes judging harder.

A bit off topic here, but a judge is never in the optimum position to view a maneuver except for take off, level flight, inverted flight, and if the judge is in direct alignment of the paths of the wingover, and the landing.  It is the responsibility of the judge to recognize the parallax problems from whatever his viewpoint and assign a score accordingly.  Now, we can get into the subject of what some top pilots can do to make a maneuver look better to the judges while not exactly following the the description for that maneuver, but that is sort of beyond the scope of this thread.

Keith

« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 06:39:50 PM by Trostle »

Offline Russell Bond

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #198 on: August 02, 2018, 05:44:52 PM »
Yes, I agree. However, is there a difference between FAI and AMA in regards to how the pattern is flown?
Meaning, in FAI it states that the pattern has to look correct to the pilot but about 10 years ago it said the pattern had to look correct to the judges. What does the AMA pattern say?
If the AMA states that it should look correct to the judges, that means the US pilots have to modify their pattern to suit FAI. (at the Worlds)
Bandolero

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: F2B World Championships
« Reply #199 on: August 02, 2018, 06:07:10 PM »
Russell its been a very great while since I had a rule book but I don't recall our AMA rule book saying anything in that regard either way.  Maybe newer versions do.  I only recall maneuver descriptions as the pilot would see it.  I would think it could be found on the AMA website.

Dave
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