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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: David M Johnson on August 28, 2011, 09:05:01 PM
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Ok call me ignorant but what constitutes an F2B plane and how is it different than your average stunt plane?
David M Johnson
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Uh, it needs to finish the pattern in under 7 minutes instead of 8?
Same, same.
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F2B is the designation for FAI stunt. In FAI, class F is aeromodels, sub class 2 is control line, and F2A is speed, F2B is stunt, F2C is team race, and F2D is combat. In F2B the pattern is the same but the scoring is different.
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Thanks for the reply's I was looking at some of the designs from our Argentinian and Brazilan friends and a couple of them "spoke" to me. They were labeled "F2B" so I got to wondering.
David Johnson
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Essentially the only differences there may be between F2B and AMA rules could be the maximum sizes such as wingspan, overall length and maximum weight which in F2B is laid out in metrics and max line length which is slightly longer in F2B (about 6"). As far as the pattern goes there's the 7 minute time limit (as mentioned) and the landing rules are different. Naturally there's no BOM so you can fly anything you like, borrow a model or whatever.
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It does not need to be built by the person who is flying it...
This is a common misrepresentation. Neither do AMA airplanes.
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This is a common misrepresentation. Neither do AMA airplanes.
Howard, only in the three classes of AMA Aerobatics is the pilot supposed to build his/her plane. VD~
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Hey, not another BOM discussion :## n1 H^^
Clearly, the same aircraft will work great for both. In FAI contests, there's no Appearance points, unlike in some AMA contests. Whatever points you get come from the flying. The guys make the planes pretty just to please themselves, not because they must.
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Hey, not another BOM discussion :## n1 H^^
The guys make the planes pretty just to please themselves, not because they must.
I agree no BOM debate... but IMHO I think the reason people try and get on the front row at the NAT's is to add more points to there score.
I could be wrong about that, but that is my understanding. Some please correct me if I am wrong. H^^
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You have to live abroard and eat exotic food.
You have to learn to engineer strange control systems and odd handles.
You have to learn to wait for engines that are made one at a time and may take years to get.
You need a PH.d in math to score contests.
Learning to mold strange materials will become a part of your life.
You will absolutely fall in love with their flying line requirements. H^^
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You have to live abroard and eat exotic food.
You have to learn to engineer strange control systems and odd handles.
You have to learn to wait for engines that are made one at a time and may take years to get.
You need a PH.d in math to score contests.
Learning to mold strange materials will become a part of your life.
You will absolutely fall in love with their flying line requirements. H^^
Hi Milton,
Can you please elaborate on your 2nd. and 4th. statements?
Thanks and regards,
Claudio H^^
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I agree no BOM debate... but IMHO I think the reason people try and get on the front row at the NAT's is to add more points to there score.
I could be wrong about that, but that is my understanding. Some please correct me if I am wrong. H^^
That might be a secondary factor, but that's not the main reason. This event is as much about art as it is technology and there are plenty of people who value the construction and finish aspects as much as the flying. I would note that even in FAI, which unfortunately doesn't have a BOM or appearance points, most of the airplanes are still nicely constructed and well-finished. And as of yet, I still think all of the FAI winners could at least arguably been the builders of their airplanes. You don't see any clear-dope or FASCAL-type airplanes competing successfully at any high level.
I think the fact that we have this as a part of the event is essentially the sole reason it hasn't fallen into the trap of the other C/L events, most of which are close to dead on a national level. Just creating a pretty airplane is a big motivating factor for a lot of people. Appearance judging at the NATs is A Big Deal to the event.
Brett
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Howard, only in the three classes of AMA Aerobatics is the pilot supposed to build his/her plane. VD~
In none of those classes is building one's own model required. The BOM requirement now has eroded so much that it only applies to one event at the Nats, and even there, "building" is only sticking on some plastic covering.
If you don't want something turning into a BOM dispute, discourage commercial disinformation posts. Somebody just might refute them.
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Ok so the REAL reason for asking, and thank you for all the replys, I saw the Halcon plane and I was trying to verify that it would be a good stunt machine. It looked to be well constructed and from the You Tube Videos looked to be a flyer. I'm not a fan of the modern stunt machines so I was looking for something that resembled a plane. I should preface that I mean no offense at the designers or builders I'm just not attracted to those planes ascetically so I'm looking for a plane to transition from the profiles to a full fuse stunt plane that I can progress with. I appreciate every post and input. I started flying somewhat later in life than most of you and I feel I probably wont ever get to the point most of you are at but I do know that a good plane does make a differance. Thanks again and Please don't argue too much <=
What I really need is a coach.
David Johnson
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I agree no BOM debate... but IMHO I think the reason people try and get on the front row at the NAT's is to add more points to there score.
I could be wrong about that, but that is my understanding. Some please correct me if I am wrong. H^^
The reason people try and get on the front row at the NATS is to add more points to THEIR score.
That, plus personal pride and bragging rights. Well, you wanted to be corrected if you were wrong. I assumed you meant spelling and the whole enchilada. Could be wrong, of course. ~~> Steve
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Hi all.
I like the one abouth the PH.d in maths to understand the FAI F2B score.
Each figure is judged from (exept the start) 1 to 10 and multiplied by a factor that varies for each figure.
(For the Start you get either 10 or zero.)
So if you get 8 for the Hourglass figure you get 80 points (pr. judge) that is : 8 (for the figure) x 10 (the factor).
Of course the Triangle loops and the Square 8 are more difficult to calculate, as you need to multiply by 14 and 18, but a few years at MIT should help you out.
Btw. : You have in US the 2011 Team Trials 9-11 september. They are F2B.
It would be interesting to know who are the professors that do the calculation of the scores.
Here is the mysterious algorithm:
Figure weight.
1 Start 1
2 Take off 2
3 Reverse Wing Over 8
4 3 Inside loops 6
5 Inverted flight 2
6 3 Outside loops 6
7 2 Inside Square Loops 12
8 2 Outside Square loops 12
9 2 Triangle loops 14
10 2 Horisontal Eights 7
11 2 Square Eights 18
12 2 Vertical Eights 10
13 1 Hourglass 10
12 2 Overhead Eights 10
13 1 Four Leaf Clover 8
14 Landing 5
[/left]
I was in France 2008 and watched David Fitzgerald win the World Championship in F2B (!!).
He did only the simple flying of the model of course , others did the complicated math for him (and the rest of us).
(I came very low on the list , so it was probably some high school student that calulated my score.)
There is also a BOM possibility (not rule) in F2B . We call it 'Buy your Own Model' .
The Ukranians love it. They also call it BsOgM. (Build some Other guy's Model).
If you are interested in other strange fenomena that take place here in Europe and very often in South America, i could tell you about how they play football with a ball that is completely round (like a bowling ball but slightly lighter), using only your feet to move the ball, and where jumping upon an opponent and trying to bury him under the grass on the pich is also considered to be not nice. First attempt result in the referee showing you a yellow card, next attempt brings you a red card and after that you are allowed to leave the pitch and have a free shower.
Many other strange rules too but we would need a separate forum for to explain it.
P.S.
The reason i like NOT having AMA BOM rules in Europe is that my models would never hit the front row. Most likely somewhere behind the back door.
Norvald
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It would be interesting to know who are the professors that do the calculation of the scores.
I believe there are some totally American solution for that. Just ask Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, or whoever is minding their shops now :D
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Ahh... Of course!!
Having worked for 30 years for a US Computer software company i should have thought of that solution.
Sorry for beeing so ignorant.
They could also use the Finnish solution (You know that one with the funny Penguin logo).
Norvald
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Football played with the feet? What a strange concept. Do you think it will catch on?
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If you are interested in other strange fenomena that take place here in Europe and very often in South America, i could tell you about how they play football with a ball that is completely round (like a bowling ball but slightly lighter), using only your feet to move the ball, and where jumping upon an opponent and trying to bury him under the grass on the pich is also considered to be not nice. First attempt result in the referee showing you a yellow card, next attempt brings you a red card and after that you are allowed to leave the pitch and have a free shower.
Many other strange rules too but we would need a separate forum for to explain it.
Someday I will explain the "Infield Fly Rule" to you.
Brett
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Football played with the feet? What a strange concept. Do you think it will catch on?
Well Howard, one never stops getting surprised on what some people do.
I heard some young folks in the local supermarked talking about having seen some old men out on a grass field swinging some strange looking airplane thing around on 60 feet lines , making a noise like an old 2 stroke motorcycle..
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LOL You guys are HILARIOUS
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I kept expecting somebody to say that AMA Stunt is the same as FAI (F2B) except that F2B models are made using the French measuring system. ;D Steve
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The reason people try and get on the front row at the NATS is to add more points to THEIR score.
That, plus personal pride and bragging rights. Well, you wanted to be corrected if you were wrong. I assumed you meant spelling and the whole enchilada. Could be wrong, of course. ~~> Steve
Yup! Thanks, sTeVe, H^^ LL~
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They could also use the Finnish solution (You know that one with the funny Penguin logo).
Right now the only Penguin logo I can think of belongs to a brand of ice cream... I need more coffee.
edit:
Oh, that Penguin logo.
... but it is only a place where you can put solutions, not a solution by itself.
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I heard some young folks in the local supermarked talking about having seen some old men out on a grass field swinging some strange looking airplane thing around on 60 feet lines , making a noise like an old 2 stroke motorcycle..
We were at a contest at the Evergreen Air Museum in Oregon a few years ago. The museum visitors would stop by the circle and watch for awhile. One kid asked me, "Do you have to be really old to do this?"
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P.S.
The reason i like NOT having AMA BOM rules in Europe is that my models would never hit the front row. Most likely somewhere behind the back door.
Norvald
I think this is one of the reasons it is so hotly debated here.
Gee, its just not fair that Uncle Jimby and Ptg are awarded twenty appearance points.
Lets overlook the fact that they spent hundreds of hours of prep work that goes into the incredible finish on their planes.
That time and effort should be rewarded. So they get their appearance points.
Why is this concept so hard to grasp????????????????
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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F2B or not F2B - that is indeed the question! (with thanks to Bill Shakespeare)....
Annette
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F2B or not F2B - that is indeed the question! (with thanks to Bill Shakespeare)....
Annette
Or 'To F2C or not F2C' (with thanks to a Team race guy who lost his glasses.)
..