incorporated clubs?

[Ty Marcucci]

I am looking for info on how many clubs, CL only, that are incorporated?

[Steve Helmick]

I am looking for info on how many clubs, CL only, that are incorporated?  We are in the process, so as to obtain a city owned area for two circles for flying, on  smooth large asphalt area, limited access. We feel it is a necessity, based on info from AMA and others. 
Opinions not needed nor wanted, just how many clubs are in fact incorporated. Let's not let this question go off on a tangent. We would appreciate legit comments. Not interested n opinions, we have enough of those.

The NW Skyraiders have been incorporated for about 10 years, but at the last meeting or so, I believe Dave Gardner suggested that we NOT renew our articles of incorporation. It's a PITA for whoever has to file the taxes every year, it costs money, and there has been no financial benefit.  While it can be argued that it insulates club members from lawsuits, being an AMA Chartered Club (which requires all club members be AMA members) and paying site insurance for the various sites we officially fly at pretty much does a better job of that. Which we would be doing anyway. At least two city park depts. have been very impressed with the insurance total...plus, we are accident free to this point. Chartering also cuts sanction costs (in half, IIRC), and essentially (with site insurance already paid) makes a sanction pretty much not required from an insurance POV.

We'd suggest paying AMA "site insurance" for the site and Chartering your club. Show the city what that will do (I believe it's $3 million total), and they'll be ok with it. Better than a city owned skateboard park! Several of those around here have put kids in wheelchairs for life, and the city is good with that!  Steve   

[Michael Alurac]

Hello Ty,

We of the Knights of the Round Circle kotrc.org in Southern California are an AMA chartered club looking into the possibility incorporating ourselves. This is a great topic and is very timely to our clubs intentions of incorporating. Viewing Steve's input of his club's experience with the rules of incorporation it seems that our intentions might well be suited to remain an AMA chartered club and not incur the added expense and time dedication of being incorporated.

I'll be watching this topic closely to see what other clubs are doing.

Mike

[johnt4051]

The three clubs (egad) that I am involved in are not incorporated, but we have found it useful to have our clubs registered with the state as nonprofit organizations.  There are a few hoops to jump through but it's not much trouble.  The advantage is (don't hold me to the legal nuances) that being a nonprofit organization can be helpful if you are asking a public entity -- particularly one that uses federal funds such as an airport -- to give you land or other aid for a flying site.
  In Oregon we have to pay a $50 annual fee to keep our nonprofit status, and we file what's called an "electronic postcard" to the IRS, certifying that we don't pay a staff more than $25,000 a year.  That's it.
  --jt

 

[Wayne J. Buran]

The North Coast Controliners, Cuyahoga County Fair Grounds, Ohio are an AMA chartered club and a registered Non Profit. That seems to take care of our small group. Our AMA site insurance and zero accident record has been well accepted  by the CCF for 12 years. We looked at incorporation but since we are not on private land it was not a good idea. Our biggest problem is rogue R/C flyers. We are celebrating our 12th year at CCF. I will advise though that every location and situation is probably unique  so I would suggest researching carefully and see if there is a worthwhile payback.
Thanks
Wayne

[Allen Brickhaus]

Ty, the Paducah Aero Modelers is, just email Charlie Reeves for further information.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Our club has been in the process of incorporation for about two years.  In California nothing goes easy.  One of the problems is to avoid the yearly corporate minimum tax.  To do this we are attempting to incorporate as a "Not for profit" (note: I did not say "nonprofit" that's different).  Trying to go "Not for profit" has lead to an endless list of questions, that grows everytime you answer the latest question. 

Now then why would a club want to incorporate?  Back in my R/C days when I was a club officer, one of our members who happened to be a lawyer informed us that should we get sued for any reason the club officers could be held financially responsible if the club was not incorporated.  So we did it to protect the officers.  Being a large club with plenty of cash we didn't bother with the "Not for profit" but control line clubs don't aways have the luxury.
Andy

[Brian Massey]

Hi Ty;

I've been in numerous car & motorcycle clubs over my 70 years; some inc, some not. The Mustang club was, and we had to file income taxes every year (never paid, just had to file). Still had to go out and buy insurance for events and such since they were not part of a larger entity. I'm now in a Pontiac club that is a chapter of the national Pontiac organization (POCI). This is just like the PC Flyers being an AMA chartered club; we get all of our insurance needs etc via them. When I approached the City of Madera to use their airport for the Golden State there was no issues with AMA insurance, nor that we were not inc'd. The City felt completely covered and protected.

But I am not sure how under AMA how club officers/members are insulated against law suits if the unthinkable should happen. Does anyone know this off the top of their head?

Other than that one issue, I wouldn't see the need to inc.

Brian

[Steve Helmick]

As always, your Homeowner's/Renter's Insurance steps up first ("Primary"), then the AMA Insurance ("Secondary"), in case you are sued. Since we have AMA "Site Insurance" on each of our official flying sites ($65 each/year, IIRC), I'd think that would be at the front of the line.  If one of your club members flies at another site, suggest to them never to mention that they are a club member.

One of the problems with our Kent Park site is that they decided to require AMA membership, yet anybody is allowed to use it, club member or not. How is that supposed to be enforced? Well, I think we're supposed to ask, and if they can't produce their card, call 911 and wait. The City was happy to have us, because our presence tended to make homeless campers go find another place to camp (and drink and do drugs). We tried to offer them CL Flight Training, but they said they wanted R/C or nothin', CL looked too hard...   Steve  

[FLOYD CARTER]

John.  If your staff doesn't get miore than $25,000 a year, just how much do they get?  I'll volunteer for a club position, but I expect at least $15,000. 

Floyd

[johnt4051]

Nah, Floyd ... I wouldn't make you pay more than $10,000 to be a club officer!

 

John.  If your staff doesn't get miore than $25,000 a year, just how much do they get?  I'll volunteer for a club position, but I expect at least $15,000. 

Floyd

[Scott Richlen]

Ty:

Northern Virginia Control Line is incorporated and has been for about 10 years or so.  We became incorporated during our 5 year long effort to gain access to Federal property (BLM) for a flying site.  The benefit of the incorporation, I think, is a bit intangible.  However, we were successful in gaining access and have been flying there for 6 years, so I wouldn't want to say that it didn't help.  I think one benefit is that when we introduce ourselves as NVCL, Inc. we immediately set ourselves apart from the idea that we aren't very serious about this and are just a bunch of old guys that meet in the local coffee shop once a month and happen to fly toy airplanes once in a while.

Scott

[Steve Helmick]

I keep thinkin' you guys are in Nevada, tho... 

[Mike Scholtes]

The Woodland-Davis Aeromodelers Club in Northen California is incorporated. It has a Board of Directors and has corporate officers. All the positions are filled and the organization follows corporate formalities. The club is primarily RC but also is the CL contest venue for nearly all the contests in NorCal, excepting only the field at Napa.

Ty said he doesn't want opinions, but nonetheless:

As a California attorney who has incorporated nonprofits, I believe there are advantages to the corporate form, chiefly the insulation against liability claims. Claims can still be made, and therefore possession of adequate insurance is critical, but generally speaking corporate shareholders are not liable for more than the value of their shares. In a non-incorporated club, individual liability is theoretically unlimited. We have to accept that this is a potentially dangerous hobby, even potentially fatal. CL presents much less risk than RC (in my view anyway as a participant in both) but there is no denying that a person could be killed by being hit by a CL model at 55 mph.

You need to keep distinct the "nonprofit" aspect of corporate organization which eliminates payment of taxes on
revenue, and the "liability shield" aspect of corporate status. We are probably not much interested in the nonprofit status (though it is commonly done, under IRC 501(c)(7) "social or sports club") but more interested in the liability shield aspect. Our liability insurance has coverage limits, and above those limits, you are responsible if found legally responsible for causing an injury or death. Suppose your stunter takes out a 35-year-old tech guru making a million a year? His wife and kids have a $30 million claim for loss of income in that wrongful death action. Corporate status insulates the club members against such claims. These fact situations are highly unlikely, sure, but not impossible. End of lecture.