Experts

[RC Storick]

So called experts. Just because a guy can sit here and type out a long winded page does that make him a expert? No it makes him a good typist. Of which I am not. Having said that there are very few and I mean I can count them on one hand who have built more airplanes than I have. Having said this I would say that I might know a little about model airplanes and how they perform. They guy who wins the NATS or any given contest on any given day has the most stick time.

Some can fly a board to win the contest. Does that make him the most knowledgeable on perimeters and design? NO. Does this make him the utmost authority on model aircraft. No it makes him the winner on that given day. I try to pass on info I have learned from practical experience and not a book or siting behind a computer screen. I apologize I am not as educated as everyone else and can't deliver the ten thousand word responces every one would like to get. Especially when it can be felt at the end of the handle. Examples are bellcrank local,excessive wight to the tips,concentrated wight on the nose and a half a dozen things.

I offer my experience (that's not from a book) so maybe one person can not make the same mistakes I have already made thus saving them time and money.

Because this is a subjective HOBBY it can go anyway on any given day. I wish someone smarter than myself would come up with a way to eliminate the human factor in judging for at least one contest. Then have the unbiased computer figure out which plane and pilot flew the closest to the programed parameters. I think some would be supprized. Or maybe not.

Personal pride and integrity is built into every model I fly at the NATS. If I sound Pi$$ed off good reason. Every time I type something someone comes back with their personal opinion stating mine is wrong. Its almost to the point I hate to post on this forum. Well I build and paint all my own airplanes. If I need something and I want it bad enough I learn to make it myself. Not buy it and say I made it. How you know for sure someone completely built their own airplane is that plane after plane look like they came out of the same shop. A good builder has a sanding signature. I can see it and I know who does what.

[Perry Rose]

The technology has been used several years ago. On you tube I think was a video of a planes path outlined on the screen. Butt ugly.  The flyer was real good without the computer imaging. Baseball has ways of tracking the ball through the strike zone and displaying it on the TV. Umps probably don't like it.

[steve bittner]

Bob, please keep up the info, I for one understand what your saying. I started free flight at 7 or 8 and learned how to adjust flying without all the auto adjust features to make them max out. Went to u control flying planes as big as me like the 61 nats with a modified ring master, my own fuse & stab. Flew rc with tubes & rubber bands, then ten channel boxes with switches all over instead of sticks. You learn how to adjust and make things better (sometimes not). I never really had the desire for competition but the fun of flying in it.
I HAVE NEVER MET A PERSON I DIDNT LEARN SOMETHING FROM. Common sense is a key factor, KEEP UP the good work, Thank you

[Reptoid]

So called experts. Just because a guy can sit here and type out a long winded page does that make him a expert? No it makes him a good typist. Of which I am not. Having said that there are very few and I mean I can count them on one hand who have built more airplanes than I have. Having said this I would say that I might know a little about model airplanes and how they perform. They guy who wins the NATS or any given contest on any given day has the most stick time.

Some can fly a board to win the contest. Does that make him the most knowledgeable on perimeters and design? NO. Does this make him the utmost authority on model aircraft. No it makes him the winner on that given day. I try to pass on info I have learned from practical experience and not a book or siting behind a computer screen. I apologize I am not as educated as everyone else and can't deliver the ten thousand word responces every one would like to get. Especially when it can be felt at the end of the handle. Examples are bellcrank local,excessive wight to the tips,concentrated wight on the nose and a half a dozen things.

AMEN Robert

[Dan McEntee]

  The definition of an "Expert" : A former drip, under pressure.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Tim Wescott]

Robert, you're on my short list of people whose posts I give great credence to.

On Internet forums, there's always going to be someone who disagrees.  Thick skin is a prerequisite for participation.

[john e. holliday]

Sparky,  I hope you keep telling it like it is.  I remember the article about bellcrank location didn't matter.  Also the ones about plane designs and other stuff.   With you,  You have the experience by having done it.   It is like the announcer saying the pit crew changed tire pressure by 1/2 pound in left front to help performance of the car.  I say phooey as I think it is mind over matter.  But, model planes air something completely different and each type has it way of doing it.  I think I stated in the past of having instructors at telephone schools that you knew immediately they had no hands on experience of why circuits works or how to get them to work.   Now was nay of your designs ever published and plans made available?   I know of one Navy Carrier competitor that said I would have to come and use his work bench to build his models.   No plans other than what was drawn on the bench top. 

Anyway keep the build sessions coming.

[Randy Ryan]

Well Robert, the issue you raise is why I am no longer nearly as active here as I used to be. It seems to matter little to anyone the nature of the post, some one always wants to take you back to school. I like you have built countless models, my father is a modeler and I do not remember NOT building and flying airplanes, its a lifestyle for me. I have many years experience (58 or so) in varied disciplines and yet even though I used to stress that, it makes no difference. Seems most people just have to exert their "knowledge" on us no matter what. So I limit my posts now and if I have a specific question I just turn on the mental filters and go for it. There is a goldmine of information here, but like gold in the mountains, you have to mine it.

[Dan Bregar]

Robert

I understand what you are saying.  But we know of your experience and abilities, and they are very real and not just ego promoting  rants.  Have confidence then that you know your stuff and have a wealth of experience that myself and a lot of others who post here simply don't have.  You are one of the people who I want to know what you have to say on building, finishing and flying stunters.  This is because I respect your experience, which is greater than mine and I can only learn from you. While you don't know it all (no one does), you know more than a lot of us, so please keep posting and dis-regard the know-it alls who just want to feed their ego's.   Having said that, you have to leave room for the possibility that there are a few who know more than you also. 

[Doug Moon]

"Experts" like it or not they are extremely helpful...maybe not always kind about it or stating what one wants to hear....but non the less they help.

I have seen the arguments about certain subjects over the years.  Some of it pretty much a waste of time.  No one is going to put the bell crank on the tail or in fuel tank compartment anyway so spending time trying to prove that it makes a difference or not is really a pointless task, wouldn't you agree....

I would like to take a second to THANK the "Experts" who love to type and show their aeronautical engineering prowess, you know, the ones that aggravate you to end.  It took me quite a while a long time to realize what I was feeling on the handle was not always what I thought was actually happening in what I would call a logical thought path.  I am no aeronautical engineer and will never claim to be.  Yet I have read thousands of words typed by those who are and wouldn't you know it lots of their information applies to the very thing we do.  I took bits and pieces that I thought I could use and honed some of my deductive reasoning skills and applied different parts of the equations they laid out to my own situations over the years.  Some of the applications worked and others didn't.  But they all taught me one thing or another.  I don't understand all of them or pretend to even have a clue about some of it.  But learning application is something I am good at and will not shy away from. After many years of reading and practice and eventually a very minor understanding of some of it I was able to use and apply enough of it to my program to get my rig flying well enough to take it to the top of the heap at the 2012 Nats. 

So, to all of you "Expert" typists out there on all the different topics we discuss every day you have my thanks and gratitude for directly or indirectly helping me win the Nats.

[RC Storick]

No one gets it. We fly motorized kites. Just as a sprint car always turning left does not corralate to a road car in set up. Our control line planes do not fly in scale air and when was the last time you saw a jet liner attached to wires?

Congrats on your nats win Doug.

[Dan McEntee]

  True, the air is the same for everyone and everything, but the aerodynamic forces that our models deal with and create, in my estimation, is somewhat scaled due to the model size, weight and shape. Remember, a bumble bee flies in the same air as a 747, but it's not supposed to! 

      Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Avaiojet]

Experts?

Here's the cure.

Just click on the image.

[Randy Cuberly]

I've carefully read through this thread and I'm very confused.

What point is it that is being made.  That there is no such thing as an expert?
Or that education and engineering is unnecessary?  Or maybe that someone that has spent a lifetime studing a particular subject should keep quiet and let only the folks that think they understand it better express an opinion because they got their information from the school of "hard knocks".

Sorry guys...but without the education, study, and application of applied science and engineering we would still be using 1890's technology.

While it's true that cut and try engineering can be very successful with balsa and plywood toy airplanes, to condemn  knowledgeable Experts for trying to share their knowledge is egotism of the highest order.

There are often things to be learned by scientific analysis in a short time that would take many lifetimes of cut and try.

Knowledge increases at an exponential rate because suceeding generations build on what came before...the work and knowledge of so called "Experts".

I have learned over many years that most people that have worked and studied hard over long periods of time to garner those little letters before or after thier names should be listened to and respected for their knowledge when talking about their chosen profession or field.

I'm not an aerodynamicist but my studies in mechanics have given me enough knowledge of math and physics to understand that the few folks that come on this forum with those credentials are the real thing and deserve respect for what the say on the subject.

I'm not trying to imply that anyone should blindly follow a particular point of thinking just because the one presenting it is an expert, but it should be respected and assumed that the person that has that title in a particular field has something of value to share.
Listen and make up your own mind but be cautious about ridiculing knowledge lest you come across as an egocentric Boob.   

Randy Cuberly   

[Doug Moon]

No one gets it. We fly motorized kites. Just as a sprint car always turning left does not corralate to a road car in set up. Our control line planes do not fly in scale air and when was the last time you saw a jet liner attached to wires?

You are showing right here that you don't get it.  No you cant use the same setup in a sprint car that you would in a road car.  You are correct there. But where you fail to make the jump and the connection is that the SAME EXACT deductive reasoning is used when setting up two entirely different cars for their said task. This is done because they are both cars trying to achieve similar results, go very fast in their respective fields of competition.

Our planes don't fly in different air than a jet liner or a jet fighter or a fuel tanker.  We are all exposed to the same air.  We are all trying to achieve similar results, stay in the air during our said task.  In the big picture our airfoils work the same way theirs do, maneiuver the air in such a fashion that one side has positive pressure and the other side has negative pressure and there is lift.  They do the same thing at 500 mph and we do it at 55 mph. AoA means the same thing for their planes as it does for our planes.  CG in relation to Center of Lift for the air frame works the same on a jet liner as it does on a stunt plane.  You don't believe me?  Go watch the horrid video of the 747 crashing due to loose cargo sliding back and causing a massive CG shift all the way aft the Center of Lift making the plane unable to continue flying.  Go out with an old model you don't mind crashing and experiment with a sliding weight.  Pull the nose up and move the CG aft the Center of Lift you will get the SAME RESULT!  Its Guaranteed.  Laws of physics don't change because we put lines on our planes.  We are still beholden to them just as all other aircraft are.  This is the connection between ours and theirs.  Once you GET IT! It becomes alot easier to make choices is why you would and wouldn't change something, oh like say the numbers on a model, thickness of an airfoil, LO placement....etc...  It's no longer darts on the wall for changes and hoping the next plane is the one, and when it isn't go build a whole new plane hoping it is the one.  The information provided can help to make choices to get the desired results, as long as one chooses to use said information.  So, yes alot of it does apply.  Even if you think it doesn't. 

Congrats on your nats win Doug.

Thank you.

Not much longer with the trophy.  Hopefully I can bring it home again!

[RC Storick]

Your right Doug I don't get it I cant build I dont Know crap. You are the champ not me so I know nothing.Good luck

[RC Storick]

 The definition of an "Expert" : A former drip, under pressure.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Do you know the difference between the word Champ and Chump? One letter

The most entertainment one can have is reading the expert opinions on the internet. Everyone is a expert.

[Tom Niebuhr]

Sparky,
Don't get down. Difference of opinion makes the world go around.

Everyone should be learning something every day. The word "Expert" is thrown around too much. And the ability to throw a lot of words or bull is common with humans.

I agree with Doug that we can learn from "Experts" but this is because most of them learned about what we do by doing it. It is not all theory.

Your writings are very well done. No one is "Expert" at all the components of Stunt and certainly there are many ways to accomplish the same thing.   Personally, I feel that you ARE AN EXPERT and I enjoy reading everything that you write.

[Derek Barry]

So called experts. Just because a guy can sit here and type out a long winded page does that make him a expert? No it makes him a good typist. Of which I am not. Having said that there are very few and I mean I can count them on one hand who have built more airplanes than I have. Having said this I would say that I might know a little about model airplanes and how they perform. They guy who wins the NATS or any given contest on any given day has the most stick time.

Some can fly a board to win the contest. Does that make him the most knowledgeable on perimeters and design? NO. Does this make him the utmost authority on model aircraft. No it makes him the winner on that given day. I try to pass on info I have learned from practical experience and not a book or siting behind a computer screen. I apologize I am not as educated as everyone else and can't deliver the ten thousand word responces every one would like to get. Especially when it can be felt at the end of the handle. Examples are bellcrank local,excessive wight to the tips,concentrated wight on the nose and a half a dozen things.

I offer my experience (that's not from a book) so maybe one person can not make the same mistakes I have already made thus saving them time and money.

Because this is a subjective HOBBY it can go anyway on any given day. I wish someone smarter than myself would come up with a way to eliminate the human factor in judging for at least one contest. Then have the unbiased computer figure out which plane and pilot flew the closest to the programed parameters. I think some would be supprized. Or maybe not.

Personal pride and integrity is built into every model I fly at the NATS. If I sound Pi$$ed off good reason. Every time I type something someone comes back with their personal opinion stating mine is wrong. Its almost to the point I hate to post on this forum. Well I build and paint all my own airplanes. If I need something and I want it bad enough I learn to make it myself. Not buy it and say I made it. How you know for sure someone completely built their own airplane is that plane after plane look like they came out of the same shop. A good builder has a sanding signature. I can see it and I know who does what.

Alright Spark, I will give this a try.

This forum (yours) is a public place where a lot of "friends" get together and discuss all things stunt. Personally I do not agree with the way some of the top guys use their equipment but hey, its their stuff and they make it work. I see no reason to get offended when someone makes a comment about something I said or the way I do things, let them think what they want. When it comes time to fly we will see who was right and who was wrong. I think most of the advice given here is done so with good intentions, maybe it is wrong or misguided but I think that most of the people are just trying to help. The others who make hundreds of post and obviously have no clue what they are talking about, I ignore them. Doug hit on some good stuff, there is a lot to be learned from the so called "Experts" but I do not agree with everything. I do my own thing most of the time and it has worked out pretty good for me.

I guess what I am trying to say is take what works for you and leave the rest behind. No need to get defensive because most of us are good friends and in the real world we would do anything we could to help one of our fellow modelers in a time of need.

Derek

[Doug Moon]

....I guess what I am trying to say is take what works for you and leave the rest behind. No need to get defensive because most of us are good friends and in the real world we would do anything we could to help one of our fellow modelers in a time of need.

Derek

What he said!

[Doug Moon]

Your right Doug I don't get it I cant build I don't Know crap. You are the champ not me so I know nothing.Good luck

You told everyone in your post earlier that "NO ONE GETS IT".  Now, when someone says the same thing back you go all extreme and make a statement like this. 

I never said you don't know crap.  I never said you cant build. On the contrary I watch your build and finishing threads with great interest and I compliment your work often. 

I never said because I won the nats you know nothing.  I have NEVER SAID OR THOUGHT ANY SUCH THING!!  That is a garbage statement you  made and certainly doesn't reflect my true feelings. 

Whatever man, to each his own.   

[Dennis Moritz]

8463.

[RC Storick]

When I made the remark No one gets it. Its a generalized statement Not intended to be directed to anyone. But you answered. What makes me feel good is that this forum works and when people of high regards in the hobby and National winners call me and ask for my opinion or advice. Which just happened again last night. This type activity happens on a regular basis. They don't ask here in open forum but rather in PM or a phone call.


Here is what grips me most and it hurts the Hobby in my opinion.

I try to explain stuff in mechanics terms easy to understand. Then someone will come by and post a long diatribe about how it won't work with math equations to back it up. That's great but its already working on my airplane.  Trying to inflate their ego by making the dumb mechanic (me) look bad. This does not work. I wish I could sponsor a kid 18 years old with lightening reflexes and time to pratice to fly my airplanes.

Now a guy new to stunt comes to the board and reads things like adding head shims and venturi sizes and thinks wow this is going to get complicated. Instead of reading the easy way of adding or subtracting nitro.

True useful information can be cultivated from anywhere but I try to make it easy not complex where you need a engineering degree to figure out what was said.

[Bill Ervin]

Hey Robert,  remember a few years ago when we met and became instant friends at that bar-n-grille in Overton Nevada near you Dad's house?  It was called Sugar Burgers I think.  You were wearing a black leather bikers jacket and a freaking PAMPA baseball cap of all things.  I had driven up from Vegas to do some work on the runway at Perkins Airfield.

I knew exactly who you were (because of the PAMPA cap, plus I recognized you from pictures) so I had the advantage.  I came up to you and ask you something stupid like 'hey, do know where I can get a part for a PA 51' (or something equally from left field).  You should have seen the look on your face!  It was priceless!  A stranger walks up from nowhere, in the middle of nowhere, and asks a question that only you could have answered.  I had you baffled for a while and I'll never forget that day!

And remember 10 years ago when I got kicked off the Stuka Stunt Forum?  Remember the kind and friendly advice you gave me?  Your advice gave me the courage to ask Leonard for his forgiveness and to be put back on the roster (which he did instantly, all this after 6 months of being exhiled).

Anyway, that's the Sparky I know.  Not the one on this thread.

Your friend, Bill

   

[Curare]

Stolen from the 1970's Sci Fi movie BLACK HOLE

"There are three basic types, Mr. Pizer: the Wills, the Won'ts, and the Can'ts. The Wills accomplish everything, the Won'ts oppose everything, and the Can'ts won't try anything."

Robert, you are an expert in the eyes of some people, me for instance, if I hadn't see your build log on your beamfire, I'd never have given an I beamer a try.

You've been inpsirational, which at least in my opnion is better than being an expert.

[Randy Powell]

It's funny. I've been told many times that something I'm doing won't work. Sometimes it turns out that the guys telling we were right. Or partially right. I try all kinds of things and sometimes they are disasters. Sometimes they work (I tend to keep those). I always listen to the guys that seem to know what they are doing. When some talk, I listen closely because they have proven to me in the past that they are very good and what they say works. Some I listen to and if it makes any kind of sense I may try it regardless of their experience or education. Some I don't much listen to (other than to be polite) because they have proven to me that they are off track.

Robert seems to have a very distinct idea of what he wants to do and it seems to work for him. Of course I will listen. I'm no expert (just ask the guys that judge me), but I keep trying.

[RC Storick]

I don't fly all that well until the end of summer.

[Randy Cuberly]

I don't fly all that well until the end of summer.

Well, you could move to Tucson, where we fly all year round.  Hard to find time to build here though...always flying. 

I guess nothing's perfect...

Randy Cuberly

[john e. holliday]

No time to build in Tuscon???   Joe Ortiz, may he have many flying days in the great beyond, told me one year about Tuscon.   He stated they were at the field at the crack of dawn and flew until 0900 AM or until it was too hot and then retired to the work shop until evening when it cooled down again.  He said it was the best move him and his wife ever made.   Never really got to know him except at VSC each year.   So many I have met at VSC and no longer with us.  Miss them all.

[jose modesto]

Joe Ortiz was the mayor of flushing meadows park in NYC. He ran 2 contest a year and they were always well attended.we now have a fun fly.His leaving created a large void for us new york fliers.
Joe was the MAN, always greeted newcomers with a smile,handed them the small PAMPA brochure and was always recruiting contronline flyers.
Joe made me a human.
Joe will always be missed.great ambassador for our sport.
I miss his presence.
Thanks Doc for reminding me of him
Jose Modesto

[Brett Buck]

Here is what grips me most and it hurts the Hobby in my opinion.

I try to explain stuff in mechanics terms easy to understand. Then someone will come by and post a long diatribe about how it won't work with math equations to back it up. That's great but its already working on my airplane.  Trying to inflate their ego by making the dumb mechanic (me) look bad.

    I can assure you with absolute certainty that no one, repeat, no one, is posting anything for the purpose of making you look bad. That's something internal to you.

    What hurts the hobby, in my opinion, is the tendency to try to divide people into "camps" where there is some notion of "haves" and "have nots" that must be at war with each other. Which you are seemingly not only buying into, but encouraging.

I wish I could sponsor a kid 18 years old with lightening reflexes and time to pratice to fly my airplanes.

   To what end? All the people currently winning are 30-60 year-old-men and I assure you that they are not remotely superhuman. I have seen you fly and I can assure you that lack of physical skill is almost certainly not the issue. The basic problem (and almost everybody has been in the same boat at one point) is demonstrated to a remarkable degree in this thread.

     If you never change anything, nothing will ever change. You know I am not "against" you and you know I would tell you the truth if I thought you couldn't hack the flying part of it. You can.

         Brett

[Rafael Gonzalez]

When I made the remark No one gets it. Its a generalized statement Not intended to be directed to anyone. But you answered. What makes me feel good is that this forum works and when people of high regards in the hobby and National winners call me and ask for my opinion or advice. Which just happened again last night. This type activity happens on a regular basis. They don't ask here in open forum but rather in PM or a phone call.


Here is what grips me most and it hurts the Hobby in my opinion.

I try to explain stuff in mechanics terms easy to understand. Then someone will come by and post a long diatribe about how it won't work with math equations to back it up. That's great but its already working on my airplane.  Trying to inflate their ego by making the dumb mechanic (me) look bad. This does not work. I wish I could sponsor a kid 18 years old with lightening reflexes and time to pratice to fly my airplanes.

Now a guy new to stunt comes to the board and reads things like adding head shims and venturi sizes and thinks wow this is going to get complicated. Instead of reading the easy way of adding or subtracting nitro.

True useful information can be cultivated from anywhere but I try to make it easy not complex where you need a engineering degree to figure out what was said.

Mr. Storick:
Because of your dedication to this website, I have learned more than what I have learned before my accidental discovery of it. The knowledge base in here from different veins and roots, renders an "expert" not meeting the definition. It means that, there are 1 or 2 "best" ways to solve a particular problem by the "expert". No such solution in our hobby. Many ways that are to our personal performance and ability can be the solution. There are many "best" ways. I have seen many in this forum. Personally, I would be as happy as a camel in the desert if I would have a ship as yours is. One that would be rock solid straight and turn as a combat ship. Please continue with your excellent work. I always look forward to the suggestions by the more knowledgeable folks than me.

I posted this in the " Carrier" section a few weeks ago. Life is short
 

"I know I can feel somewhat what you feel.  Was ready to go with several friends from up here in Mass. Planning to fly Carrier, P.A. Foxberg and Combat. Felt like a kid in a candy store. April 17th, had a stroke. Lucky to be here. Just a small one. My right hand is coming back quickly and probably start flying soon but I'll need an electric starter for now.
There is always next year. My heart is broken in disappointment.
Just 2 days before, was planning to take my wife and kids to the Boston Marathon... The rest is history. Life is very peculiar sometimes...
A rude awakening about my health and others.

A thought for all of us.


We are a special group of people, fading away unless we pass on the qualities of having our concepts. Some here may argue, involve in name-calling, etc. All the situations that we see once in a while at this site. However, I truly believe that anyone would give all the help needed to keep another from dying.

Most of us, are 50-65+ yrs. (e curve anybody?) average. Many values that were taught to us by family, role models, etc. have changed. WE are ONE with same values.
I am changing my priorities radically with respect to my family, friends and others. Live and let live.  
I was given a second chance to realize what is important and what is trivial. In here, we mean well. WE ARE ALL GOOD GUYS!

I will be back...
   "

[steven yampolsky]

We seldom find any person of good sense, except those who share our opinions. - Francois de La Rochefoucauld

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge. -Elbert Hubbard

The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions. - Leonardo da Vinci

Good company and good discourse are the very sinews of virtue. -Izaak Walton

And my favorite: There is more than one way to skin a cat. 

[Mike Griffin]

Robert I now know what you were feeling and thinking when you started this thread.  I just had it happen to me on a post....

Mike