Author Topic: Excuses-excuses-excuses this is why our sport is dwindling (Read 6158 times)

frank carlisle · « **on:** July 28, 2010, 12:50:19 PM »

Yesterday I sent out the Tour d' Michigan flyer to every modeler in my address book. The event is coming up this Saturday. Today I'm getting a stream of replies. They go like this.......

Aw gee I'm golfing that day.
Aw gee I told my wife I'd fix something.
Aw gee that's too far to drive.
Aw gee--( put your favorite excuse here).

I get in talks with guys that proudly announce that they've been into modeling since way back when but things got busy so they haven't flown in 22 years but, one day they'll get back to it.
We have a zillion c/l guys around here but the local hobby shop doesn't have any stunt fuel to sell. Know why? These guys aren't burning enough fuel to create a demand.

That's why we're dwindling. Not going to events and not going out flying creates a vacuum. How can any one get interested in something like modeling when there are so few of us actually doing it?

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2010, 03:14:47 PM »

there are other factors too - but I hear you!!!

the WORST thing i EVER heard was when I attended a stunt contest in 2005 - this was the first of its kind held in the country - I asked the organiser - "did you advertise locally" his reply

"No, we dont want the general public turning up"....

another reason so few people get exposed to stunt

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2010, 04:08:39 PM »

Hi Frank,

I understand your frustration, but in a way your own post answered your question.

CAUTION: Editorial, Please read at your own risk!

Our very small part of a very small hobby is slowly passing away. Due to forces way beyond our control there is very little we can do to change this fact. The temporary infusion of retreads has delayed the inevitable for now. On the bright side; this infusion has given us a wonderful opportunity to enjoy the hobby of our childhood. This has given us many great contests and flying opportunities throughout the country.

CL has made the choice to resist any modern changes. This is charming in a way, and is certainly comforting to those who thought the 1950s were the good old days. If CL was not so resistance to any modernization it may be able to slow down it's demise, but it would still not save it for all time. For many of us, a large part of CL's attraction is a nostalgic look back at our childhood and reliving some very fond memories from our youth. This is in addition to having a little fun too!

We don't always need a big turn out at all our contests. In the past few years I have flown in CLPA contests with 48 entries and contests with 12 entries, I had the same amount of fun at both. I have very strong feelings about CL's resistance to modernization, but thanks to wonderful CL people like Jimbo and Paul, I have learned to try and embrace all the positive parts of CL and learn to live with it's drawbacks for as long as this great ride lasts.

Frank, you are one of the master modelers that I admire in CL, I hope that your frustration subsides soon. We do have some wonderful opportunities to help extend this golden age of CL a little longer. I just hope CL embraces these opportunities. We can all benefit from these and maybe next time the replies to your flyer will be: "Thanks for the great Flyer Frank, I'll see you there this weekend"

Warm Regards,

Randy Powell · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2010, 04:11:04 PM »

I think that may change. If the FAA gets it way, the ability to fly RC planes is going to be severely hampered. Then again, all model plane flying may eventually go away. Oh well, if there's no one to keep it alive, it will go the way of so many things that have had value.

Dick Pacini · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2010, 05:43:33 PM »

My goal is this...I am returning to this hobby after 36 years. I have amassed 5 high end kits and 5 new engines. I am building a workshop downstairs. I have bought a new lathe, scroll saw, drill press and will soon get a new mill. These are all the things I used to have. I have bought knives, jigs, adhesives, building boards and bench legs.

Obviously, I intend to fly again, hopefully to reach the level I was in the 70's, able to take 1st or 2nd place at regional contests. I am going to practice as much as possible, using the soccer field at our town park, which is a couple of blocks away.

I hope to draw spectators, young and old alike. I hope to answer questions and be a positive influence on those who are as fascinated with flying and PA as I am. I intend to offer clinics to those who are truly interested, perhaps seeking support from one of the service clubs in town. Finally, I hope to be able to schedule a few advertised PA demonstrations to further the frenzy. I may even try and get Matt Colan involved. I have never met him, but he is a few hours north and is very close to kicking some serious flying ass, based on what I have read and watched, in his new video. Finally, I hope to create enough of a demand for C/L that the local hobby shop will give up some of his hallowed model trains for space for airplanes and supplies.

A pipe dream? Maybe, maybe not. The first step will be actually flying. From there, it will move quickly, I hope. I am fortunate to be semi-retired and having 5 days a week off. I will absolutely do everything in my power to generate interest and participation. I'm 66 now and figure at least another 15 years of good modeling and flying is in my future.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2010, 05:57:51 PM »

For some reason participation has been way down at our field this year. We had a really nice, low wind, great weather weekend day last month and nobody came to the field. Was hoping the new takeoff ramp and a renewed interest in carrier would stir up the gang but hasn't happened. Sure hope we can round up enough bodies to put on our September contest.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2010, 06:18:38 PM »

Dick Pacini---I love the goals you listed. Don't be disheartened if people don't line up to play with you. If they don't then make sure you keep flying. Travel to other guys circles and post pix and descriptions of your flying activities. Matt Colan, Paul Taylor and Elwyn Aud have been very active in posting pix and video. They've been inspiring me to keep on trying to bring in retreads and newbies, but most importantly they've kept me flying.
Rudy--thanks for that huge pat on the back with your "master modeler" comment. You said c/l resists change but I haven't noticed any resistance to change at all. We allow ARFs, ARCs and short kits as well as borrowed and bought models. And now we've made room for electrics. ARFs and electrics are really the only two new things that have been introduced that I've naticed and thay've been accepted.
I do get frustrated sometimes when other guys won't do what I think they should be doing but I can deal with it and remain friends.
Tomorrow I get to fly at two different circles in two different cities. If I can't get them to come to me I'll go to them.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2010, 07:05:37 PM »

Rudy Taube said:
“CL has made the choice to resist any modern changes.”

CL airplanes, in particular Stunt, have gone through major changes over the years. We have more power sources than ever. Take your pick: 2 stroke; pipe or non pipe; 4 stroke; electric, new engines from .15 to .95, modern props, better fuel systems, better airplanes with a variety of construction methods. This surely is not resisting modernization.

If your beef is BOM or Appearance, only the NATS is firm on this. Many of us have opinions on that and always will.

If you don’t want to fly OTS or Classic… don’t.

If you don’t want to build your own airplane, get an ARF. If you don’t get as many points for the ARF as the guy who labored for a year or more on his airplane… accept it… he earned it.

Many contests will let you fly the ARF as equal.

I have my own opinion on the RED Chinese ARFs that is deeply rooted in my past life in the Aerospace industry, and my support of American made products.

Here is what I wrote elsewhere and it tells you why I feel this way:

“In my past life in Aerospace, we looked into having plating done in RED China. We could have saved money... BUT.. we saw unventilated tubs of chemicals, dirt floors with puddles of chemicals, and workers inhaling fumes, working in bare feet, with open sores on their feet...
I am sorry, but I refuse to support that.. And don't forget that, even if the politicians and news media now ignore it, it is still COMUNIST RED China.”

The Red Chinese are ruthless business people who have no regard for patents or proprietory rights.

I am not stopping anyone from flying Arfs. If that is your thing, so be it.

CL is not resistant to change. We live in an era of instant gratification , computers and video games. There are many things to choose from. There was a time when an airplane flying overhead was exiting , but now nobody looks up. Even the Space Shuttle has become routine. We who fly CL are in a small group that gets very little attention. RC has numerous ready built airplanes, and most of the people flying them have no idea how to repair them, and leave the hobby in a short time.

CL offers an opportunity to expand your skills in designing and building. I had a long career in Aerospace that started with CL models. I personally love the challenge of these attributes along with the challenge of competing.

We who fly CL do it because we like it. We like the advancements that have been made slowly over the years.
While we need more publicity to hopefully get a small number of newbees, but, the best advertising is being friendly and helpful to every spectator that sees you fly at the local field or at a contest.

Take that new person, whether he be pre-teen, teenager, or in his 20s, 30s, 40s,or 50s, under your arms and help him. Make him feel welcome. Above all, DO NOT try to impress him with your high end equipment. Tell them that one advantage of CL is that you can get started at a small cost without spending a $1000 bill.

Sell him on the various CL events.. Carrier, Scale, Racing, Combat. Stunt might be the most popular, but is not the only interest within CL.

Take part in demonstrations. This creates interest albeit in most cases, very small.

“CL has made the choice to resist any modern changes.”… No my friend, we are constantly accepting modernization and new challenges. But we should never forget where we came from. That is happening all too frequently in our marvelous country that I love.

peabody · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »

Wow! The dreaded Red Scare....the Chinese have been our valuable and trusted allies since Reagan....

James Mills · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2010, 08:41:50 PM »

Quote from: peabody on July 28, 2010, 08:29:19 PM

Wow! The dreaded Red Scare....the Chinese have been our valuable and trusted allies since Reagan....

Really, that's not what we were taught in the Army (and that was in the late 80's for me). The Soviet Union was top threat, guess who was next?

James

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2010, 09:34:16 PM »

Peabody,
You will never get it.
The situation I described about Red China took place in the '90s. It is still a Communist country. They still treat their people terrible. I thought that you Libs were supposed to be caring.
I want to support the U.S.A.

peabody · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2010, 05:13:31 AM »

James....
The US Army has historically been very slow to respond to change....look at "don't ask, don't tell"...

James Mills · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2010, 06:31:01 AM »

Peabody,

Where you ever actually involved in the military, or is this the listen to the media philosophy. When countries who hated us, then and now, are sporting weapons made be these countries that speaks volumes.

James

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2010, 06:35:27 AM »

Hello Randy,
  Let us get back to the topic. Peabody made a very good point. I was very interested in your reply. Please let us have your ideas on modernising control line. I am a bit puzzled at this statement. I thought that c/l had altered out of all recognition. The high end certainly has and one of my interests (OTS using sparkers) has also gone a little high tech!!
  Don't get me wrong, I am not anti modernisation, just very interested in where you see opportunities for modernising c/l. We certainly need to do something, if the sport is to continue. I have been flying c/l for over 50 years and there have been layoffs due to work and family. But I am setting up with new workshop and tools specifically for c/l. I take every opportunity to involve youngsters and I may just get one or two, to have an interest in our hobby. If we all did that maybe our sport will continue.
  Anything that makes c/l more interesting and modern is a very welcome attitude. Please let us have some of your ideas, I for one, would welcome a breath of fresh air and a new way of looking at our hobby. If we don't involve our youngsters, then we are doomed like the dinosaurs!!! Let us face it, most of us have less than 20 years to go before we have to hang up out handles.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:08:04 AM »

Quote from: Dick Pacini on July 28, 2010, 05:43:33 PM

My goal is this...I am returning to this hobby after 36 years. I have amassed 5 high end kits and 5 new engines. I am building a workshop downstairs. I have bought a new lathe, scroll saw, drill press and will soon get a new mill. These are all the things I used to have. I have bought knives, jigs, adhesives, building boards and bench legs.

Obviously, I intend to fly again, hopefully to reach the level I was in the 70's, able to take 1st or 2nd place at regional contests. I am going to practice as much as possible, using the soccer field at our town park, which is a couple of blocks away.

I hope to draw spectators, young and old alike. I hope to answer questions and be a positive influence on those who are as fascinated with flying and PA as I am. I intend to offer clinics to those who are truly interested, perhaps seeking support from one of the service clubs in town. Finally, I hope to be able to schedule a few advertised PA demonstrations to further the frenzy. I may even try and get Matt Colan involved. I have never met him, but he is a few hours north and is very close to kicking some serious flying ass, based on what I have read and watched, in his new video. Finally, I hope to create enough of a demand for C/L that the local hobby shop will give up some of his hallowed model trains for space for airplanes and supplies.

A pipe dream? Maybe, maybe not. The first step will be actually flying. From there, it will move quickly, I hope. I am fortunate to be semi-retired and having 5 days a week off. I will absolutely do everything in my power to generate interest and participation. I'm 66 now and figure at least another 15 years of good modeling and flying is in my future.

Thanks for the comment Dick!

I personally feel that the sport isn't dwindling as a lot of people say it is. Dick is an example of some of the guys who are getting back into the sport after an "x" amount of years away. Louie Klein is another one who hasn't flown CL in the past few years and he's getting back into it.

But I do definitely see why people say the sport is dwindling. Many of the hobby shops around don't carry CL stuff. The hobby shop that was in our area closed down and if I remember right, there wasn't very much CL stuff there, but at that time I was flying RC.

The advantage to having a flying field in my backyard is that my next door neighbor's kids have developed an interest in this, and one of my brother's friends wants to try it out also (along with his father).

I do have to agree with everybody that more youth is needed to keep this sport thriving, which means people should put on flight demos at the local soccer fields or baseball fields or something like that. Talk to the superintendent of the school or something to see if they would let you fly there. If you can fly at public places, you can get people to more than likely stop and watch to see what you are doing, then it peaks their interest, then you get them to buy an ARF, have you help them put it together, then you got a new flying buddy to fly with at the field.

Leester · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:24:18 AM »

Our area has a slow down in flying also. Those of us who work are working more hours, and those that don't are trying to save every $$ they can. These aren't excuses there facts of present day life under our present regime

john e. holliday · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2010, 08:16:05 AM »

To Bob Reeves, your field is one great flying site, but it is out in the boon docks. I was also at the other two fields which were a little closer to civilization. Do you guys still have your weekly get togethers? Still your field is not as bad, as far as locality, as some I have been to. Pawnee Rock KS for instance. If you didn't have directions you would not even know where to go. The field I am at now is, right now a 30+miles one way drive. The only spectators is the RC group. When I was at Shawnee Mission Park, I had a lot of people drive by. Even got a couple of people started while I was there. One has gone on to better pasture.

I spent several years at Kansas City Kansas City Park at what was supposed to be a control line circle. The Parks manager did not like model planes and it showed by the way the set the circle up. Now it is a lit soccor field that is not used because of the crowd that hangs around. I now have the mower on charge so I can go fly today. Will anybody be there, probably not unless it is one of the retired RC'rs. All the grandkids do not want to fly any more because an individual has convinced them there are better things to do. So I have my trusty stooge and Sandy to go with me so I can fly. Hopefully it won't get too hot.

By the way I gave up on creating another club. You miss one flying session and they don't show up the next weekend. Sometimes family or work gets into the reason for not being at the field every week. They don't get it either. Enough said.

Ronald Borski · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2010, 09:17:34 AM »

With limited time I cannot get out to fly often. Kudos to those that have a normal life, lol.

I have been interested in joining a local rc club that is very close by, 10 minutes. They have a very nice rc site and behind it have cut a circle for c/l flying. Membership is limited to 100 flyers. The club voted down expanded membership and has not considered opening up a c/l only membership out of concern on how to monitor it and not have folks crossing the line to r/c. I have attended meetings and in each meeting they discuss the need to send folks to other clubs. When asked if they had a waiting list was told no. Found a few folks that were able to fill out an application so I e-mailed the president, no response. E-mailed again and he replied not very nicely, sent me an application saying "Now you have your application.". I am sure he has paid his dues moneywise, timewise, and having to put up with a lot of trouble but that comment was not called for. When turning it in he also wanted to know my occupation, why.. I dunno.

An alternate field is across town and takes an hour to get to and with time constraints I cannot make it. I guess I remain puzzled why members do not support separate membership for control line flying.

Since I haven't been in a club and certainly haven't served as an officer on a club I suppose that I am overlooking a lot of issues tied to c/l only membership. I do believe, however, that there is an opportunity here to bridge the two together, r/c and c/l, in a way that promotes c/l flying to help it stay alive. Bridging the gap is on the shoulders of the members since they have the only say. As the local club stands now, they are providing a circle for a handful of members and wish to leave it that way. There is plenty of room for an additional circle. Go figure. Of course after posting this I am sure to be out of consideration for this club, lol.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2010, 12:22:29 PM »

The reason we do not have new flyers, or flying fields, is the NPP (noise polution police). When I was a kid you could hear C/L planes flying from at least a 1/2 mile away. The reason, no mufflers or electrics. And they flew from ball diamonds, vacant lots, and school yards. I flew a couple of C/L planes for around 50 home school kids a few years ago. One of them was muffled, and the other open exhaust. I flew the muffled one first, and there was a little interest. I next flew the unmuffled one, and I got all there attention. My wife was helping me and said it was amazing the change when I flew the "loud" one.

Sooo! There you have it people. The weenie NPP have ruined C/L by requiring us to run mufflers, and fly from remote areas where no one can hear us. People like noise smoke and fire. Well, except for the NPP. A Fox 59 flown in a school yard is bound to turn up somebody that will take up the hobby. But in this day and age you only get one chance to do this because the NPP also tell the local police what to do.

Before I get flamed here, you have got to realize this is all tongue in cheek. Although I still think there is a little truth in it.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2010, 12:40:17 PM »

Jim, I agree, this time with my tongue not in my cheek.

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:34:37 PM »

Hi Frank,

I gotta tell ya something. Now I know I haven't been very active lately, but the fact is, if I were active right now I would probably still pass on these "contests". The fact is, while Tom and I enjoyed ourselves at the last one we attended, the events really do very little for me. I don't mean to be critical, but if I'm going to fly at a contest, I want to fly Stunt, the real thing. I apologize old freind, but that's the fact of the matter for me.

peabody · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2010, 07:58:14 PM »

We are aging.

Kids today, in general, are interested in hi-tech "instant" gratification.

They suffer watching old guys play with airplanes on strings and really want a helicopter...only they want to master the heli in a couple of weeks, max...

Have fun

Zuriel Armstrong · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2010, 08:31:18 PM »

Quote from: peabody on July 29, 2010, 07:58:14 PM

We are aging.

Kids today, in general, are interested in hi-tech "instant" gratification.

They suffer watching old guys play with airplanes on strings and really want a helicopter...only they want to master the heli in a couple of weeks, max...

Have fun

"I think it would be cool and a LOT of fun to have teams build Brodak 1/2's on Thursday and fly them on Friday? Then donate them, complete with engine, lines and handle to the kids hanging around?
junkyard only proves that Orville Wright was right....
Why not try to improve our sport, rather than demeaning it by proving that stuff made from trash can fly?
Just my thoughts......."

This is a quote from your post July 6, 2010.

Flip Flop???

Phil Coopy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2010, 08:37:13 PM »

There is a parallel from my younger days (50's). My grandfather and some of his friends were model ship builders...I mean the really nice ones he spent months building.......He tried in vain to get my interest going, but you know, I stayed away from them because I could build and fly a new model airplane in a couple of weeks...sort of 50's instant gratification....and it was what a lot of my buddies(you guys) thought was cool. And I'll bet that the dwindling number of model ship builders had the same dialog that we are having.

Phil

W.D. Roland · « **Reply #24 on:** July 29, 2010, 08:45:50 PM »

Seems like in the 70s the Schnurle/ABC and so forth engines hurt C/L due not only to the increase in cost but the large increase in power available.
In combat and rat things were getting out of hand rapidly.
I stopped seriously competing in 75 so not for sure about this.

Where R/C has C/L beat today is that you can learn to fly airplanes and helicopters on a computer in the air conditioning!
Plus the open the box and fly products available in R/C.

Sometimes I can get my 75 year old dad to come out and sometimes my 24 year old son. sometimes.

All local old time C/L fliers that are still active now fly R/C and like to talk about flying C/L again, so far no luck.

Being young apparently goes hand and hand with instant gratification.

And the the loss of our field due to Jims noise pollution police.

David

Mike Palko · « **Reply #25 on:** July 29, 2010, 10:09:51 PM »

In my opinion the main reason this hobby is dieing is because of the new generations, not advertising, simplicity, advancement or cost. The vast majority of kids have no time for model airplanes and have no interest in them. Their lives are lived through facebook, text messages, cell phones, and instant messengers. They are interested in music, video games, ipods, TV shows/celebrities like "The Hills" and "The Jersey Shore" along with modern sports like the X-games. If it's not that it is school sports, regional sports, or the school band. Model aviation isn't even in the picture of things to do!

I can name a dozen or more kids I grew up flying with and now they are nowhere to be found. These weren't one summer flyers, these were kids who flew for years and were dedicated only to disappear over night. They come of age to drive and work and find other interests. I'm sure some will be back, but most won't. Most people who grew up flying 30, 40 or 50 years ago (when it was popular or more popular than it is now) didn't come back. If they did our numbers would be as strong as they were back then.

The Philly Fliers as a whole has introduced thousands of people to model aviation with less than a 1% to 2% success rate. We fly in a public park every weekend, we fly at local community events several times a summer and we fly at airshows when we get the chance. Out of the 1% to 2% about 25% of them actually fly for more than a summer. This tiny gain is just enough to keep our numbers about even year to year.

We should all enjoy and embrace the Nat's, the Brodak Flyin, the N.W. Regionals and KOI or any big contest that brings back the feel of the old days with lots of friends, events and a large number of entries. If we can't change the outlook of the hobby we might as well enjoy it until we can change it or until there is no one left to fly with.

Mike

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #26 on:** July 29, 2010, 11:23:38 PM »

Quote from: Phil Coopy on July 29, 2010, 08:37:13 PM

There is a parallel from my younger days (50's). My grandfather and some of his friends were model ship builders...I mean the really nice ones he spent months building.......He tried in vain to get my interest going, but you know, I stayed away from them because I could build and fly a new model airplane in a couple of weeks...sort of 50's instant gratification....and it was what a lot of my buddies(you guys) thought was cool. And I'll bet that the dwindling number of model ship builders had the same dialog that we are having.

Phil

Hi Phil,

That is a PERFECT analogy for CL today. I hope everyone reads your post. I'll bet your right; they did have the same dialog!

Hi Andrew,

The short answer to your thoughtful post # 13: Everything you need to know about the problems of declining CL participation in the USA is here on this thread. The solutions to slow the decline are obvious, but very few in the CL world want to hear them, let alone implement them. Because of this, they would take many, many years to implement, with more than a few long bloody battles along the way. By the time the changes were made it would be too late, most of us would have passed on without enough to even replace our numbers. There are NO solutions to save our very very small part of a very small hobby in the long run. Just like there were no solutions for Phil's grandfathers model ship building group, or the once popular hobby of handmade buggy whips, or model wood carving, etc. etc. Please don't misunderstand me, I am normally a very positive guy and I am usually teased about wearing rose colored glasses. But I am also realistic enough to know the difference between what is real and what we "wish" was real.

My reply to Franks post was meant to try and cheer up Frank and let him know that he was not alone in his frustration. I really admire the handful of master modelers like Frank, and I think I understand their frustration. My grandfather was a master carpenter who worked in a fine furniture factory all his life, back when almost everything was made by hand. As a child I saw the frustration build in him as more and more machines came into his factory. His skills meant less as time went by. Our small hobby is in the same position. Our modern world is changing much faster than we can adapt and there is very little we can do about the long term survival of our CL hobby. I only hope that we can try to do what we can to stretch out our short, but golden period a little longer, and come to grips with the reality of the long run decline and just enjoy it while it lasts.

Jim Aron (AKA 20 point Jim, or Jimbo), one of the nicest guys I ever met, taught me a very good lesson about the deep passion many have for the artistic side of CLPA. He helped me see that many of the issues in CL transcend logical analysis. Amazingly, this is both the beauty of CL and the problem of it's survival. Even though I have strong feelings about the problems in CL, I also have an appreciation of the other important point of view on these issues, thanks to guys like Jim, Paul, Phil, Howard, and Dave. These guys all enjoy the artistic, traditional side as well as the technical side of our hobby.

That old saying: "Please Give me the strength to change what I can, .... the serenity to accept what I can't change, ...... and the wisdom to know the difference!" might apply here.

Thank you both for giving us your insightful and helpful posts on this tough issue. If everyone was as reasonable as you two, CL would be more enjoyable for everyone.

Warm Regards,

PS: I was writing this before I saw Mike's post. .... I'll bet my iPad that Mike is 100% on target! ;-)

Howard Rush · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2010, 12:21:29 AM »

I think this is the best discussion I've seen on this topic. Thanks, guys.

peabody · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:58:43 AM »

Zuriel...
I don't think my comments were a flip...
My hope that we can lure new modelers is real...hence replacing folly......
But I fear that other "instant" actions draw the young.

Have fun

frank carlisle · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2010, 04:23:34 AM »

I'm sure that the cowboys sat around the bunkhouse having very similar discussions. By then most cities had ordinances against wearing sidearms and bringing horses into town. Cattle drives were impossible because of all the fences.
They probably really went ballistic when their kids wanted to move to the city and drive cars. They (like us) could sense the end of an era and having grown up in the saddle hated the thought that their wonderful way of life was coming to an end.
Even though cattle herding and calf roping went out a long time ago we still have rodeoes, dude ranches, blacksmiths and cowboys.
I'm hoping it will be the same for control line.

Dwayne · « **Reply #30 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:47:27 AM »

I was just at my local park flying a White Lightning with screaming a TeeDee 051 a great combo, anyway 3 kids walked by while I was flying and they barley even looked just walked right by with no interest at all, when I was a kid if there was a plane flying there was at least 4 kids watching, kids today just don't seem to have much interest in these things anymore.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #31 on:** July 30, 2010, 10:11:55 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on July 30, 2010, 04:23:34 AM

I'm sure that the cowboys sat around the bunkhouse having very similar discussions. By then most cities had ordinances against wearing sidearms and bringing horses into town. Cattle drives were impossible because of all the fences.
They probably really went ballistic when their kids wanted to move to the city and drive cars. They (like us) could sense the end of an era and having grown up in the saddle hated the thought that their wonderful way of life was coming to an end.
Even though cattle herding and calf roping went out a long time ago we still have rodeoes, dude ranches, blacksmiths and cowboys.
I'm hoping it will be the same for control line.

No fear as there are still ranches out west that still use horses and real cowboys. The helicoptor is used to locate the cattle now I think.

GGeezer · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Dwayne Donnelly on July 30, 2010, 08:47:27 AM

I was just at my local park flying a White Lightning with screaming a TeeDee 051 a great combo, anyway 3 kids walked by while I was flying and they barley even looked just walked right by with no interest at all, when I was a kid if there was a plane flying there was at least 4 kids watching, kids today just don't seem to have much interest in these things anymore.

When I was a kid, model planes were the "physical props" which when combined with our imaginations would transform us into fearless aviators out for adventure.
Today, kids are taken there by video games and other such devices which over stimulate them and take away the need for an imagination.
We can't blame the kids because we adults invented this technology.

Orv.

Tony Vitiello · « **Reply #33 on:** July 31, 2010, 12:14:04 AM »

I'll offer my opinion. I'm new to the site but have been flying model airplanes for over 30 years. I'm 40 now. I flew CL as a kid before RC as a way to get started. Once I learned RC, I only flew CL in the back yard because I wasn't able to drive to the flying field to fly RC. While I love RC, I recently started flying CL again after over 25 years. One of my children was watching a CL stunt flyer and really enjoying it because of the close proximity. The though occurred to me to get out some of my old 1/2A CL planes and fly them for my kids. Now I'm building a Goldberg Shoestring Stunter because it's been so much fun.

First of all, the newcomers to CL are going to come from RC, not the non-flying public in my opinion. It's too easy for anyone remotely interested in model airplanes to just get an RC plane or heli. Entry level RC is cheap now too. However, most RC guys (younger ones particularly) have never even flown CL. The guys that fly "3D" often enjoy it because you fly close to the ground with little room for error. Sound familiar? I was surprised how similar flying CL is to "3D" RC flying.

Not ever RC guy is going to try CL but if you get a bunch of them trying it, some will enjoy it and stick with it. The key is to get a CL plane in the hands of RC guys and let them see how fun it is.

You can do this by getting in touch with local RC clubs and asking to come out and not only demo CL but allow participation with your airplanes. I fly at a public park that has RC and CL but in slightly different areas. Not once in 30 years has anyone flying CL come over to the RC area and asked if anyone wanted to try CL. Sure, you need to have a beater plane to offer but it's not too hard to put something half way decent together to help recruit new people.

With so many other activities available for people of all ages, you guys are right, people aren't going to walk up while you are flying and want to get into CL. I think it would be better to start with a "warm" lead (RC guys) and reach out to them rather than waiting for them to come to you. I already started bugging my RC buddies to join me and build a CL model. I'll let you know if it works.

Just an opinion from an RC guy who flies a little CL again.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #34 on:** July 31, 2010, 12:26:03 AM »

Quote from: Tony Vitiello on July 31, 2010, 12:14:04 AM

First of all, the newcomers to CL are going to come from RC, not the non-flying public in my opinion. It's too easy for anyone remotely interested in model airplanes to just get an RC plane or heli.

With so many other activities available for people of all ages, you guys are right, people aren't going to walk up while you are flying and want to get into CL. I think it would be better to start with a "warm" lead (RC guys) and reach out to them rather than waiting for them to come to you. I already started bugging my RC buddies to join me and build a CL model. I'll let you know if it works.

I think Tony has hit the nail on the head here.

Thanks for the input.

Will Hinton · « **Reply #35 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:13:01 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on July 30, 2010, 04:23:34 AM

I'm sure that the cowboys sat around the bunkhouse having very similar discussions. By then most cities had ordinances against wearing sidearms and bringing horses into town. Cattle drives were impossible because of all the fences.
They probably really went ballistic when their kids wanted to move to the city and drive cars. They (like us) could sense the end of an era and having grown up in the saddle hated the thought that their wonderful way of life was coming to an end.
Even though cattle herding and calf roping went out a long time ago we still have rodeos, dude ranches, blacksmiths and cowboys.
I'm hoping it will be the same for control line.

What you say here has a lot of merit, Frank, except the part about cattle herding and calf roping going out a long time ago. I have friends who still make their living doing those things and don't have time for rodeos. The West is still a vast place, and helicopters and four-wheelers have their limitations. (Can you say "More expensive than horses to maintain?"
All that said, I think Mike Palco has written the most comprehensive evaluation on the subject. To ad to his statement, when we experienced the "golden age" of control line, aviation was still a fascinating endeavor - now it's so common place that younger people just accept it as a normal thing to experience. Frank's analogy of the cowboy is such a good one because those "yester-years" of the romance of the cowboy life are no longer front and center, hence the kids no longer play cowboys and Indians, they have become space adventurers. The wilkd west is in the same boat.
Let's face it, fellow fliers, change is an ever present thing, but that doesn't mean we can just roll over and play dead - we need to keep trying to get more youngsters interested. That requires time spent on our part, and so many of us hoard our time to ourselves. I'm often guilty myself, and that's a shame.
Blessings,
Will

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #36 on:** July 31, 2010, 09:52:51 AM »

Quote from: peabody on July 28, 2010, 08:29:19 PM

Wow! The dreaded Red Scare....the Chinese have been our valuable and trusted allies since Reagan....

Wow!!! Valuable and TRUSTED Allies!!!!
Where do people go to get brain washed like this. China is catering to some of our requests only because they plan to bury us in them!!
They are ruining us financially and our own government is now helping them. Trusted Ally....You've really got to be kidding!!!

Or Stupid!

Randy Cuberly "Still sane with my eyes open in Tucson"

Will Hinton · « **Reply #37 on:** July 31, 2010, 11:09:58 AM »

What Randy just said - double. We better wake up or we'll all be sold out even more than we are now!
Will

Terrence Durrill · « **Reply #38 on:** July 31, 2010, 11:23:30 AM »

Tony,

Your ideas on how to increase participation in C/L make good sense to me. Good luck with your efforts and let us know how it goes. Whether results turn out positive or negative, this will be useful information. We have a local flying site with a number of R/C fliers and if this thing seems promising, we might give it a try.