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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Tim Wescott on June 21, 2014, 11:14:43 AM
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Anyone have any clue of just how many control line flyers there are in the world? In the US?
I'd love to have a chart, broken down by country and by interest within CL.
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good question Tim, I have no idea, but I await the answer with great interest,.. If I was forced to guess I'd say no more than 5-6 thousand world wide. Gosh, thats not many is it? Phil
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I have been tracking CL scale contests on the AMA website to get an idea of where the contests are being held and came up with some interesting data regarding the CL clubs here in the USA. In general you can't have a contest unless there is a sponsoring club mostly due to manpower and flying sites.
Attached is a map of the USA with a red dot that shows where the CL clubs are located, there may be multiple clubs at each red dot. Notice that Idaho, Montana, Utah and Wyoming don't show any CL clubs at all.
I may have missed a few CL clubs in the map but the majority of the clubs are on the west coast or east of Kansas City
Fred
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That's really interesting. I see that the east has the most clubs. But we all know that most of the top flyers are located in the west (?)
F.C.
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I have been tracking CL scale contests on the AMA website to get an idea of where the contests are being held and came up with some interesting data regarding the CL clubs here in the USA. In general you can't have a contest unless there is a sponsoring club mostly due to manpower and flying sites.
Attached is a map of the USA with a red dot that shows where the CL clubs are located, there may be multiple clubs at each red dot. Notice that Idaho, Montana, Utah and Wyoming don't show any CL clubs at all.
I may have missed a few CL clubs in the map but the majority of the clubs are on the west coast or east of Kansas City
Fred
You missed one of the clubs that has put on two contest a years for years. MCLS ,Metrolina Control Line Society,Charlotte NC and surrounding area.
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I noticed one that looked to be on the border of Louisiana and Mississippi, but couldn't tell for sure.
However we have our annual C/L stunt meet in Oct here in Baton Rouge, La, and we have site set up for C/L only.
Thanks, Bootlegger
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You missed one of the clubs that has put on two contest a years for years. MCLS ,Metrolina Control Line Society,Charlotte NC and surrounding area.
Hi Ed,
I know there are some C/L fliers in the Winston Salem area, but I am not sure if the club still exists. Hobby Park is the only other dedicated C/L circles besides Huntersville left in NC!
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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A better way to determine the numbers of CL Fans is to find out how many kits are sold. There are a bunch out there that are flying/building CL that don't have any interest in contests or clubs. I can attest to that by noting that for the last 30 plus years I have sold hundreds of kits, motors etc and hardly ever see a customers' name listed as a contest participant. All this despite re-orders. At times the AMA has listed about 10-12% of its members fly some sort of CL. That would make about 10,00 here in the U.S. if that 10% were actual. Even at 2% of the AMA membership the figure would be about 2000 people. Tim, I think you will never be able to get much more than a guess. Clubs, contests, competition are not a final answer. Getting actual #'s of kits, engines, lines sold is nearly impossible.
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I would guess the USA number is closer to 2k then 5k.
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At one time I wanted to know how many people had flown in AMA sanctioned stunt contests. Unfortunately the AMA (at the time) did not keep records. This in spite of the fact that a CD has to send in a contest report.
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At one time I wanted to know how many people had flown in AMA sanctioned stunt contests. Unfortunately the AMA (at the time) did not keep records. This in spite of the fact that a CD has to send in a contest report.
One of the things that kind of bugs me about the AMA membership form is that you have to tick off ONE area of interest.
If they'd have you tick off every kind of flying that you do, then I could just ask them, and at least know what the stats are among the AMA members.
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Huntsville Alabama has a club and a flying circle.
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I travel a bit for work and there are more folks interested than you think. Clubs alone don't represent the Sport fliers and those that are contest flyers without a local club.
I am pretty sure that there is a club in San Antonio TX.
Anyway, I don't think it's a numbers thing, but more of an age thing. At 40 I am considered pretty young. Most guy's I fly with when I travel are 55+ I rarely see anyone under 40 even though they are out there. Average age poll would probably give you a better representation of the health of the hobby.
Ron
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I just did a simple check that will suprise you.
There are 25 names on each page of "Members" and 152 pages = 3,800 members of just this Forum!
Clancy
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Anyway, I don't think it's a numbers thing, but more of an age thing. At 40 I am considered pretty young. Most guy's I fly with when I travel are 55+ I rarely see anyone under 40 even though they are out there. Average age poll would probably give you a better representation of the health of the hobby.
That worried me, too, when I was 40 and the youngest member of my RC club.
Now I'm 51, and there's a small but significant number of 40-somethings flying with us, as well as several new members who are roughly my age, and are returning to flying after long periods of kid-raising.
I think that people tend to not be able to find time for model airplane flying in their 20's and 30's, then increasingly as their kids get independent, they find time to do modeling -- either again, or for the first time.
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I just did a simple check that will suprise you.
There are 25 names on each page of "Members" and 152 pages = 3,800 members of just this Forum!
Clancy
How many are still living?
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I asked the AMA for a list of the CL clubs back in January, that is where I got the information that is on the map. If you look at the club listing by each state it does not say if the club is FF, RC or CL. You might be able to guess based upon the name but sometimes you can't.
For example the "Layfayette Esquadrille" club here in St Louis, MO is a CL club but you would never know that based upon the name.
I knew I would be missing some clubs, the list I got from the AMA was not complete
An interesting note - There are 15 clubs in Montana and approximately 120 clubs in Ohio...
Fred
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What about the RC clubs that also have CL flyers? I know of two clubs. One in Maryland's eastern shore located in Hurlock. And the other is in Palm Bay Florida, Indian River Kontrol Society. Also the club that puts on the King Orange meet in January.
My 2¢
Roger
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I think there are 81 clubs listed on your map. If one averages 25 members per club, that would be 2025 cl fliers nationwide. I'm sure there are a lot more than that...there are probably half that many in CA alone!
Randy Cuberly!
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What about the RC clubs that also have CL flyers? I know of two clubs. One in Maryland's eastern shore located in Hurlock. And the other is in Palm Bay Florida, Indian River Kontrol Society. Also the club that puts on the King Orange meet in January.
My 2¢
Roger
Thanks Roger!
The "other Roger"
Roger Vizioli, IRKS CL
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Anyone have any clue of just how many control line flyers there are in the world? In the US?
I'd love to have a chart, broken down by country and by interest within CL.
I believe, but cannot prove, that the number is in the 3000-4000 range or thereabouts in the US. That's a guess based on the number of PAMPA members there are, the membership of various online forums, and how many people I see or hear of flying CL that aren't affiliated with AMA or any other organization. And I think that is pretty conservative, it could be a fair bit more.
It is very clear that the vast majority are stunt or sport/stunt fliers, because that's about all you ever see. Very few casual fliers are building speed, racing, or classic roundy-round 50's-style sport planes, they build stunt trainers or Ringmaster/Cosmic Wind/Twister-type models, near as I can tell.
Note that I am putting in caveats so my "stalker" does start up about me "lying" again, like the last time I guessed at this.
Brett
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Anyway, I don't think it's a numbers thing, but more of an age thing. At 40 I am considered pretty young. Most guy's I fly with when I travel are 55+ I rarely see anyone under 40 even though they are out there. Average age poll would probably give you a better representation of the health of the hobby.
All I can say is that people have been talking about "average age" and that we are all dying off for most of the 40-ish years I have been flying, and you can find the same kind of talk going back to the 30's. It's always a impending doom - but it never happens. There's a post somewhere about average ages at contests, it may be very slowly creeping up but not nearly as fast. New people are always showing up and it just seems to take care of itself.
Brett
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All I can say is that people have been talking about "average age" and that we are all dying off for most of the 40-ish years I have been flying, and you can find the same kind of talk going back to the 30's. It's always a impending doom - but it never happens. There's a post somewhere about average ages at contests, it may be very slowly creeping up but not nearly as fast. New people are always showing up and it just seems to take care of itself.
I have a QST (amateur radio) magazine with a lead-in column on just that subject -- everyone's aging out or quitting the hobby, the sky is falling, etc., etc. I think it's a 1929 magazine. So it's not just toy airplanes that suffer from that concern.
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Tim,
In South Korea I would say that there are about 10-20 somewhat active adult fliers (I have flown with about 5 of them) and probably another 40-50 high school and college students that are semi-active. The people in college and high school tend to turn over as they age with upper classmen and a teacher or two teaching the younger classmen as they cycle in. There are 2 boards over here that people can post to regarding CL flying but activity is a bit sporadic. Currently they run 2 main contests a year and there are occasional demonstrations at FF events. If you want to see a bunch of kids flying, you need to hit one of the FF events. I was at one last month and there was well over 100 kids there between grade and high school age.
John
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What is the definition of a CL flyer? I got into CL after 30 years of RC, and also like to fool around with FF. Our RC club has about 35 members, 4 of us fly CL. When ever AMA sends out the questionairs, I list myself as CL because I want to help the CL cause. That being said, the only CL contests I have entered are Musciano events, not stunt (yet).
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I don't mean to run this thread off topic, but I found this list of 1957 Nationals entrants in the November Flying Models
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I think that people tend to not be able to find time for model airplane flying in their 20's and 30's, then increasingly as their kids get independent, they find time to do modeling -- either again, or for the first time.
I am starting to experience that very phenomenon myself Tim :) and I know of several modelers in the stunt community alone who have "throttled back" in their participation in favor of family/kids. It's nothing to be worried about...just life.
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I cant remember the exact number but in 05-09 NATS I know it was over a 100 entrants in stunt. I still cant figure out why we are treated as second class by the AMA.
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I know that every time I see a picture or video of contests in Europe or South America there seems to be a high entry level and a lot of kids involved. I would venture that worldwide (a SWAG) is around 6000 to 7000 not counting guys just flying in their back yards. It's an exclusive endeavor.
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I think many of us qualify for Senior Citizen discounts. HB~>
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I think many of us qualify for Senior Citizen discounts. HB~>
Perhaps MOST of us...I'm 72.
George
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I know that every time I see a picture or video of contests in Europe or South America there seems to be a high entry level and a lot of kids involved.
I wish a knew a sure-fire way to make that happen. There seems to be more government participation in CL in at least some of the European and South American countries, but I don't know whether that's a cause or an effect.
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The biggest problem is we can't fly in school yards anymore. We are stuck out in the sticks and no kid exposure.
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I am always surprised when John Brodak says how many customers he has....it's LOTS.....I wonder if Eric Rule's customer list are all AMA or PAMPA members?
I think the issue is that kids aren't fascinated by flight anymore......as a kid, I used to get my father to drive me to local airports to "watch planes".....
I believe that airlines are experiencing a pilot shortage? Or one is forecast?
Have fun!
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I cant remember the exact number but in 05-09 NATS I know it was over a 100 entrants in stunt. I still cant figure out why we are treated as second class by the AMA.
That's easy to figure out Robert...It's because Control Line doesn't spend big money on advertisement in thier Magazine!
Voila...2nd class citizens!
Randy Cuberly
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We would still be flying in school yards and teaching new kids if it wasn't for the minority that think kids should not be around such dangerous toys that make noise. Also in 57 the NATS was hosted by the NAVY. Plus if I remember right guys were returning from the Korean Police Action as they called it. Also remember that Radio Control required a license and were still gas tube and big batteries.
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We would still be flying in school yards and teaching new kids if it wasn't for the minority that think kids should not be around such dangerous toys that make noise. Also in 57 the NATS was hosted by the NAVY. Plus if I remember right guys were returning from the Korean Police Action as they called it. Also remember that Radio Control required a license and were still gas tube and big batteries.
Electric.
Even though it's the whirling steak knives, not the loud thing, that's dangerous, the perception of nastiness is much less.
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Ty --- Mandatory pilot retirement age was raised to 65 in 2007 ...
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Got to be more than the 2 to 5 thousand. AMA has said for years that only about 10% of its' membership are competitive flyers so if one looks only at clubs and contests the true number , I don't believe, will be reflected.
Also, as an example, I went to a local airshow at Bention Air Park in Redding, CA. a couple years ago wearing one of my Northwewst Regionals t shirts and was approached by a gentlemen in his mid 70's and asked where I was from and did I really fly control line. He nformed me that he and several of his buddies had been flying C/L in the Redding area for years and he invited me up to fly with them. Turns out there were 6 of them, never been to a contest in their lives and did not belong to AMA but were accomplished flfyers. If little old Redding has this group I'd bet there are others in larger areas.
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I think the issue is that kids aren't fascinated by flight anymore......as a kid, I used to get my father to drive me to local airports to "watch planes".....
Have fun!
The problem now is that we are competing with computers, 100+ television chanels, Netflix, and most of all video games. Kids now put on their headsets and play video games online with people around the world. It's a completely new form of socializing. Kids no longer get their drivers license as soon as possible, they can now socialize without leaving the house. With all the "fun" they think they are having constantly connected to their friends via digital means it's hard to get them to do anything outside. We have a whole generation not experiencing real things. It will swing back, society always rights itself but control line with internal combustion engines may not be there when it does.
Just my 2 cents worth ,
Jim
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Anyone have any clue of just how many control line flyers there are in the world? In the US?
I'd love to have a chart, broken down by country and by interest within CL.
All I can report is ....here in Tulip; I'm a population of one, with a part-time flying daughter that has discovered smart phones. :##
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I know many who fly CL and they do not belong to the AMA. Think about it. Why should they? I think that the sales of kits is a better indication than any thing else. I will not renew again.
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Chuck....although many see little benefit to the AMA, I think they are our last best chance to keep control line from being included with RC/drones....and severely restricted.
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...... I think they are our last best chance to keep control line from being included with RC/drones....and severely restricted.
??? Why would that be? I don't see it. Enlighten me. H^^
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??? Why would that be? I don't see it. Enlighten me. H^^
"model airplane" = "drone" = "bad". A very small fraction of the general public has any notion of these fine distinctions we make, or that anything like "FF" or "CL" exist. FF = rubber band airplanes from the dime store. CL= cox airplanes. Everything else is "remote control".
Brett
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Several years ago when Bob Hunt was still with MA, he reported that CL and FF made up slightly less than 5% of the AMA membership at the time.
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What Brett said....
The AMA is the ONLY voice that we have with the powers that be....and they have proven effective MANY times in the past......and are still working to allow us to pursue our passion.....
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When flying at FMP I was approached by a couple of early 20 year old RC flyers with small styrofoam delta wing park "planes". I explained the NYC Parks Department policy that the field is control line only and AMA membership is required. The asked, "what is AMA" and "what is control line". I showed them the lines and they were amazed that a mechanical bell crank could control a model and that lines would hold it in a circle. They also never heard of the Academy of Model Aeronautics. I directed them to Floyd Bennett Field for RC flyers. As AMA also required there I assume they left there disappointed as well.
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There is an airlines shortage of qualified pilots and with the cut back by the military, one pool they used to draw from is also much smaller. Cause and effect. Making them retire at, what, 60, is also a tad silly. Why not 65 and keep the most experienced a few years longer, giving them time to hire more new pilots. D>K
Not only a shortage of pilots, but a horrible shortage of certified Technicians (mechanics). It takes approximately 50 hours of formal instruction to qualify as a pilot capable of carrying a passenger (private pilot). It takes 1900 hours of formal training to be a certified Airframe and Power plant technician. Go figure!
Norm
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Even after 1900 hrs some got it and some don't
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I'm with Joe Just on this one ...
I've been selling on eBay and internet forums for 14 years now, and can state with certainty there are a "bunch" of builders/flyers who have absolutely no interest in competition or even the forums, other than to perhaps find something they want.
And I'm OK with that.
Heck, my good friend and Best Man at my wedding hasn't even been an AMA member for so many years he can't remember when it last was!
Me thinks the numbers are greater than most here would realize ...
Dennis
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Perhaps the question should be, "How many ACTIVE control line flyers are there"?
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Just a thought, but based on a visit to a local Senior Center. it may well pay to advertise at these places for members for your club. Many of the "seniors" are younger than many of us. If you get just one, you are ahead, if none, then status quo. At least it's worth a mention. D>K
And if you get one + grandkids -- bonanza!
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Even after 1900 hrs some got it and some don't
As Uncle Si would say..."That's a fact Jack!" H^^
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On an average day, Sparky's Stunthanger gets 43,000 (dirty!) looks.