EQUAL LENGHT WINGS ON A BRODAK NOBLER

[Dudley Lang]

I was reading in this forum about either lengthening the out board wing or shortening the inboard wing on a Sig Super Chipmonk.  I personally have never liked the looks of an asymmetrical wing.  I have a Brodak Nobler kit.  I know there are several different Noblers.  On the box, it says the Original Nobler.  I have not started this kit yet, but I believe the inboard wing is two inches longer.  How would it effect this version if I made the wings the same length and how much trouble would it be construction wise.  Dudley Lang

[Larry Cunningham]

I'd bet money that no Nobler's inboard wing is 2 inches longer than the outboard. The only
design which I've seen in that territory is the All American. (People get into trouble not
building in the large offset into that one..  )

Longer inboard wings, (typically 1") are common on many CL stunters, particularly the medium
sized ones. Although it may be a noticeable appearance issue to a few, I don't think many
people find it objectionable.

Personally, I'd leave it as is. But I don't think there will be any major problems with making
the panels equal length if you wish. It's a matter of trimming the ship properly, in any case.

L.

"Trouble is only opportunity in work clothes." -Henry J. Kaiser

[Randy Cuberly]

I'd bet money that no Nobler's inboard wing is 2 inches longer than the outboard. The only
design which I've seen in that territory is the All American. (People get into trouble not
building in the large offset into that one..  )

Longer inboard wings, (typically 1") are common on many CL stunters, particularly the medium
sized ones. Although it may be a noticeable appearance issue to a few, I don't think many
people find it objectionable.

Personally, I'd leave it as is. But I don't think there will be any major problems with making
the panels equal length if you wish. It's a matter of trimming the ship properly, in any case.

L.

"Trouble is only opportunity in work clothes." -Henry J. Kaiser

Larry,
The 57 Nobler (Top Flite Green Box) has 1 inch of assemetry.  The Original Nobler (Brodak) does in fact have something on the order of 2 inchs of assemmetry.  Most of the ones I've seen built have a reduced amount of assemetry to approx. 1 inch.  The one hanging on my wall built by my brother from the  Brodak kit has 1 7/8 inches of longer inboard wing.

To answer the original question, reducing the assemetry to something between 1/2 inch and 1 inch will improve the way it flies and make it easier to trim.  Equal length wing panels can work but require more tip weight and can be more difficult to trim.

Most modern stunters have about 1/2 inch to 5/8 inch assemetry.

Randy Cuberly

[leoflyboy]

As Larry Cunningham knows more about layout and planform than most,I,d like to have him comment on what kind of trouble I,m already in as I just finished an AASr ,very light with the wing moved half the usual offset. Installed wgt box,addj L.O.increased tips 1in.  Are there any other issues?? My aircraft weighs 27.5 oz. all up , no fuel,strong Fox with muff included. Any tips on setup for 1st flight??All advice gratefully taken.  Thanks Rob F

[Randy Cuberly]

Yeah,
I'd like to see Larry wiggle out of that one also.
The only problem I've ever seen with reducing the assemetry in the AASr is that it becomes illegal for Ols Time Stunt (at least around here), and you don't have to pull them off the ground and run for your life on take off.


Larry?

Randy Cuberly

[John Sunderland]

I built one of the first kits Brodak produced. The two inches inboard assymetry in this case helps explain how George flew so slow. It rolls outboard with every maneuver, keeping line tension, but not necessarily presenting a pretty pattern. I test flew it and gave it away to a Beginner event as a prize.

I personally questioned George at a Brodak event, in 98 I think, about the two inch difference. I had taken the nearly finished plane to the event so I could get his signature on it. George was getting older and said that the Brodak Nobler was correct in every detail and I had surely built the airplane incorrectly. However, I did get him to sign it and it made its way back to my stable a few years later. I flew it some but never got used to the rolling effect. If you look at the kit plan, the inboard flap length is not only longer, but the inboard flap is wider at the root than the outboard. This may have been corrected by now but I do not know.

My personal opinion is that a 57 Top Flite Nobler is a better flying airplane than the original. Lots of mods made to those over the years and a UHP Geiseke Nobler is a sharp competitive and historic bird in its own right.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Remember too that GMA's original Nobler was designed in the OTS era to fly the OTS pattern.  I do not think the assymetry would have had as much effect doing the OTS pattern (predominantly round manuvers and smooth transitions).  The product description for the Brodak Nobler is a personal statement from GMA proclaiming its accuracy.

I built a Sterling Spitfire a couple years ago with roughly 2" assymetry.  It hinges, but otherwise flies pretty well, I would guess the Nobler with 2" assymetery would have issues but would probably be made to fly pretty well too.     

[Gene O'Keefe]

I would leave at least 3/4" to 1 " on the inboard wing....much easier to trim that way.

[Jim Kraft]

THe Magician is another plane with approx. 2" offset. It fly's pretty well that way. I also have an original Nobler with the 2" offset. I cheated a little on mine on the flaps, and made them both the same width. As John Sunderland said, the original has about an 1/8" wider inboard flap.

[Ed Prohaska]

Does reducing the asymmetry on these older designs disqualify them from Classic &/or Old Time events?   

[Randy Cuberly]

Reducing the assemetry by a noticible amount would likely get the airplane disqualified from Old Time Stunt in most places.  Classic seems to be a little more forgiving and many classic ships fly in contests with minor but noticible changes in assemetry and other things.
I've personally seen AAsr's that were not considered legal because they had only 1 inch assemetry and the landing gear relocated.
A substantial reduction in assemetry would most certainly have to be considered a "design change".

Randy C.

[Tom Niebuhr]

Leo,
The extreme asymmetry of the "All American Sr." is a very noticeable part of the design. Reducing the asymmetry and increasing the wing tips by 1", definitely makes it illegal for Old Time Stunt.

Ed,
Changing the asymmetry makes it illegal in OTS. Classic airplanes would lose Fidelity points. That is one of the reasons that Fidelity points were added. This however is up to the CD. In most cases reasonable proof like a photo is good. In most cases the CD will let you fly.

There were many Classic airplanes that had approx 2" asymmetry: Early "Ares" (I think); "Argus"; "Tucker Special"; McMillan's "Gambler"; Mackey's "Carousel"; Randal's "Devistator"??. There are more. Check the PAMPA Classic book.

[Alan Hahn]

I always have a strange "feeling" about the need to alter these old designs, especially if you want to enter OT. It clearly sounds "illegal", but on the other hand, it is tough to build something that you know will have flying issues.

At some point you have to ask yourself (I think) why you want to build one of these old planes. If it is just to fly something you flew (or in my case my Dad flew), then build it like you want. You will have fun.

But if it is to enter an "event", then you need to look at the rules for the event and build to them.

I can understand how a lot of you feel, I feel the same. I have an All-American, and to be honest, I'm a but scared to build it like designed because I don't know if I am fast enough to run outboard on takeoff!

Problem with OT (as I see it--but note I have never actually entered OT), is that in most contests, you are judged on your flying skill---there is no addition of points for how handicapped your steed is. I wouldn't know how to handicap them anyway!. But it is a thought, if the idea is to remove the need to improve the flying capability of the plane.

Just some rambling thoughts.

[john e. holliday]

Remember people, George flew the correct direction according to some people, including George.   If someone can come up with documentation that the Nobler wing was centered more than the plans show.  More power to them.  Also remember this is supposed to be fun, but than again some people will do anything to have another dust collector to set on the shelf or hang on the wall.